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11:09 PM
ropes in julia some more
 
@JuliaAnneJacobs ^
 
hi there!
thanks for looking into this @ChrisJester-Young
 
Sure, please feel free to ask any questions you have.
 
Ah, here we are :) thanks for this, cky
 
ok
So I'm not really sure how this happened . . .
 
11:12 PM
I think currently most of the confusion around the timelines is the 5-minute grace period? I haven't read through the whole scrollback but it seems to be the message I got from where I read up to.
 
Yeah I don't really understand that.
 
Okay, so, in order to reduce revision "spam" from minor post fixes, in general, all edits made within 5 minutes of a new revision entry will be "coalesced" into the same revision.
 
Here was the timeline as I say it visually. I can't confirm it because my edit history does not multiple submissions of my answer.
oh
 
There are exceptions to this. For example, if someone comments on your post and then you edit it, a new revision will be made even if within 5 minutes. This is interpreted to mean that you fixed your post based on feedback.
 
and with the caveat that I didn't get much more than a once-over before it was gone, the similarities between Julia's post and his were uncanny and I was curious if that's visible or whatnot
 
11:15 PM
I can show you what charlietfl's post is, if you're curious.
 
How did he get multiple versions?
Oh his second submission was later.
after 5min.
 
Correct, way outside the 5 minute window.
 
I'd like that, also Anil would like to join this chat
(I gave him the link already)
 
Can you send me a link to his profile? I have to invite him in.
 
11:17 PM
Unless you want to open the room to public. Which is fine with me if it's fine with everyone else here.
No, I mean what's his Stack Overflow profile?
 
OH duh
 
The thing is visually on my end it really appeared that he had started working on his second edit right after i made my first post.
i had no idea what he was working on in his edit.
I didnt know it was going to be the exact same point i brought up.
 
So, here's the deal. According to the timeline data, their edit happened 1 minute after your post. Of course, both you and they have a 5-minute grace period, so there's no telling what edits happened within those 5 minutes.
 
exactly
theres no way i can prove anything
 
11:20 PM
there's nothing i can do
 
@anildash ^
 
Well, nothing doing shmooing, we already hashed out what's doing and everybody agreed etc. right? I'm curious how much similarity there was initially and what the delta was
 
The sample code that charlieftl posted looked nothing (to me) like Julia's sample code. But then I'm not an Angular programmer, so perhaps I'm wrong.
I'm, in any case, not making any sort of judgement.
 
all i know is a saw Editing under his post what seemed like a few minutes after my first post. Because of the five minute rule there is nothing to prove that he saw my first post considerably sooner than the minute the record shows.
 
@JuliaAnneJacobs Uh, what? The timestamp shows the first edit in your edit batch.
not the last edit.
 
11:22 PM
Its not necessarily the sample that I'm making my statement about.
 
I'd like to look at them, and draw my own (anecdotal) conclusions ;) if that's even possible. It's pretty much a matter of personal curiosity for me since the matter is settled between Julia and him
 
Why does my revision history only show one revision?
 
Because you made your edits within 5 minutes of your initial post.
The timestamp will show your initial post's time, and not the subsequent edits that happened within the 5 minutes.
 
The statement I am trying to make is that his solution was derived from my initial post.
 
I know that that's what you're saying.
I'm not making a judgement about whom to believe in this case, because I don't know Angular well enough to know how similar the answers actually are.
 
11:25 PM
So my initial post was 30 sec before his initial post.
ug this is very confusing
 
Please ask any questions you need to to unconfuse things.
 
Do you have a history somewhere of posts that bypasses this rule for the both of us? Like a log orsomething?
 
and I'd like to see for myself whether, just based on basically code review like a merge conflict, if my human interpretation would support Julia's conclusion. Is this possible?
 
So we can get an idea of what the heck actually happened beyond this rule?
 
@JuliaAnneJacobs No, they are coalesced from our end too.
 
11:27 PM
ug
 
I see. hmm
Ok, Jill's question
 
No http logs? User logs?
nothing? i mean y'all wipe it all out?
 
They do this as a log management strategy :/ what I'm hearing is it ends up squashed
 
ok fair enough
 
@JuliaAnneJacobs We get so much traffic, it's insanely difficult to sift through it all.
 
11:29 PM
yeah, I can totally understand why it's done this way.
 
@satyrwilder ^ Here you go.
 
I can too, don't get me wrong. But this allows for poaching someone's solution and as long as the 5min rule is in play it's all good. :(
 
Thank you. checks out
 
Some sort of fail safe that does not compromise the log system might be a good idea.
 
Yeah, I mean I wouldn't attack it like this because... this :/ but
me is filled with implementation questions that wend farther and farther off topic
 
11:33 PM
Here's what I'll do. I'll ping the community team, and I'll let them figure out what to do.
 
Again I really appreciate your help and understanding in the matter.
I mean from now on I'll have to record my screen everytime I work on an SO solution so I can report potential misuse for visual confirmation of timeline but that doesn't seem ideal.
 
So, I'm curious - and you may not have the answer to this or be able to tell me, but - what's the purpose of the visibility restrictions? I'm curious
 
Do you feel that people frequently poach your answers within the 5-minute grace period?
@satyrwilder What visibility restrictions?
 
where we have to grab glyph to be able to see the burner post, for example
And, habitual poaching was Jill's question / suspicion
 
Oh, that's because that post was deleted. Only users with 10k+ rep can see deleted posts.
It was deleted because a moderator found that post to be offtopic.
Which it was.
 
11:37 PM
The thing that makes it more suspect is the other issues I ran into during this particular discussion. I dont know if @satyrwilder shared any of the records with you but: drive.google.com/…, drive.google.com/…, glyph.im/blob/6C1B8E48-8120-4859-B9D9-3AA89A3484D1.png
 
Well, yes - but, not being able to see timeline stuff based on rep, for example.

she was more alluding to this user rather than habitual users, but stuff like vindictive downvoting and non-acceptance is absolutely a thing.
%s/she/jill
 
@JuliaAnneJacobs charlieftl didn't delete the post from the anonymous account. Just so you know.
 
The post from the wha?
 
Good to know. However, you can see how there is no way I can see that.
 
@satyrwilder "Concerned Father".
 
11:39 PM
Also can you see why I would have these suspicions?
 
Oh, the burner. Yeah, that was somebody pretty undoubtably legit
 
@JuliaAnneJacobs Sure, so lemme take a minute to describe the moderation system we have, so you can see who has or hasn't the power to do what. :-)
 
but, in support of julia's sentiment, I looked him up because afiak that post wasn't flagged for moderator attention, and yet.
 
For a post to get deleted, at least 3 very-high-rep users (20k+) must vote to delete it, or else a moderator must delete it, or at least 6 or so users have to flag the post as spam.
Users with 10k+ rep can see who deleted a post. In fact, in your third link, it already says who deleted it.
 
11:41 PM
Also I looked this up: stackoverflow.com/help/privileges
 
(I'll be honest, cky - mods usually side against us. Stridently and vociferously, usually. That's been my experience. Doesn't seem to matter why or what.)
 
@satyrwilder That's unfortunate to hear. I've been a moderator (on a different Stack Exchange site) for 4 years before I joined the company, and I've had very pleasant interactions with pretty much all the mods I interact with. I understand I come from a place of great privilege, so I'm always keen to hear other perspectives, and find where we (the company) can improve things.
 
My third link?
Who deleted it?
 
that i had to get from a high level SO member btw :)
 
11:43 PM
All moderators have a diamond after their name. That's how you tell they're a moderator.
@JuliaAnneJacobs Yes, you have to have 10k+ rep to see that.
 
you can see how having low rep points put someone like myself in this position of shooting in the dark
 
@JuliaAnneJacobs Yes, indeed.
 
I mean it would also be nice to get some notifications as a participant of the question as to why things are deleted and who is deleting them so you can contact them.
So I wound up accusing the only participating high rep user I see.
 
Yeah, the inability to see that somebody else who will almost certainly get the accept by virtue of repglare is kind of mean, tbh. The odds we're just wasting our time - especially when somebody with several orders of magnitude more rep can just arbitrary crown themselves the winner because [reason]
I mean, it's pretty much impossible to convince women to participate actively on stack because the barriers to participation are stacked so neatly and so high.
 
@satyrwilder I see what you did there.
 
11:49 PM
haha oh wow I was accidentally awesome
 
stack narrowflow
 
But, the peanut gallery in that other chat - Chango, Jill, etc. They can't participate in chat because their rep's not high enough. Considering that Julia can be technically right and still be declared the loser because [reason], we resort to childish rep games just to help them be able to -watch- :/
And having to ping friends and hope they're online, available and in a sympathetic mood, etc. :/
and none of these are issues you can address but I just had to get them off my chest.
 
The community team is looking into this case at the moment, just so you know.
 
We - everyone from that room, etc. - are available at their disposal :) if needed.
And also, thanks for your patience and thank you for stack overflow saving my bacon all the infinity times I've needed it.
 
Does this seem like I'm being targeted now? Or is this par for the course? stackoverflow.com/questions/30154100/…
Notice the tone of the chosen answer . . .
New Dev?
Thoughts @ChrisJester-Young?
 
11:56 PM
@JuliaAnneJacobs I don't know who New Dev is. The community team can probably tell whether that's a sock for someone else, though it's not common to find a 10k+ sock.
 
Well, I would say you are. Some of the people from that other chat - high rep, I don't recognize, left vague, critical feedback that seemed to coincide with your answer being downvoted.
 
Whats a sock?
 
But that might be coincidence. I saw the conversation about it in one of the women's initiative irc channels
 
A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term, a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock, originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an Internet community who spoke to, or about, themselves while pretending to be another person. The term now includes other misleading uses of online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or organization, or to circumvent a suspension or ban from a website. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym and the creation of a sockpuppet is that...
 
A burner
 
11:58 PM
So would you say that I'm being targeted?
 
I mean, I can paste in the IRC remarks from the public channel.
 
@ChrisJester-Young?
Also what can I do about it?
 
(who, me? of course you are. that's to be expected. the only reason you weren't left shut down is glyph :/ )
 

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