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5:29 PM
back to see new people :)
 
5:46 PM
@bjb568 you're really forcing my hand to post those images bjb
 
Hi @FastSnail!
 
What images
 
banners of bjb for elections ;)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not enthusiastic about the comment you left that started: "You have a well known history of abuse..." It's important to hash issues like this out, but the phrasing implies more than you probably intend. If it's "well known" it might have been better to link to a meta post or whatnot.
 
5:51 PM
@JonEricson that's a good point, and given the comment he's made I'll follow up with a response with appropriate examples.
Thanks for the feedback
 
Fwiw I have a ton of faith in bjb, just based on how much time I spend with him in the chat rooms, even if he is silly.
 
@JasonC hi good to see you :D alive
 
@maveň Haha, hi. I guess I better head to the den now, I have no excuse.
 
I think bjb has the ability to take on the responsibility, they just don't behave like the role model you can rely on in public.
 
@JasonC see you there ;)
 
5:54 PM
As long as he keeps lolspeak, I'm not voting for him
Also, isn't he, like, 13?
 
@JasonC I don't, I hope he changed but it doesn't look like it.
 
Yeah, that would have to go just to maintain a public image. I don't think age matters at all.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I asked bjb (in another chat room) to update his nomination to address the concern. I'm pretty likely to purge the comments at some point.
 
Given that the world generally thinks that Stack Overflow is full of jerks, I'm most inclined to give my vote to somebody who work against that perception (to the tiny extent that it is possible).
 
@JonEricson very well, I just ask that that point is in a few days (before primaries to not affect voting, but enough to let the discussion exhaust and him to address things in advance).
 
5:56 PM
@JeremyBanks: I have to agree. As SO is getting more and more users, we really need role models that can fight for the site image.
 
@JeremyBanks He could be somebody that a lot of young people with that perception could relate to, though. He's got a good sense of humor, if he drops the lolspeak.
 
Which is also why I believe Martijn is insta-winning this.
 
^
 
and the amount of cat images
I thought of voting for Uni
 
Wait, you actually did?
 
5:57 PM
why not?
 
I'm honored :.)
 
The thought crossed my mind too Uni.
 
:)
 
Too much speculation... although we all know Martijn has an auto-win.
 
That much, we know
 
5:58 PM
I didn't count to make sure I make it through primary... I only have four certain votes
And I'm not cheating with my socks for this :p
 
Remember too that votes are weighted: first, second, and third for each user.
 
Not in the primary
Primary is an unlimited amount of up/down votes, one per candidate
Each weighted the same
 
^^
Only after primary will your goodwill matter significantly.
 
Ah...
 
@JonEricson I've posted a clarifying comment - is that better?
 
6:00 PM
@Unihedro FYI:
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 13 hours ago, by AstroCB
7 hours ago, by AstroCB
People to be kicked out after 30 candidates (in order):
1. Me
2. @bjb568
3. @hichris123
4. @Unihedro
5. @Undo
6. @AlexisKing
7. @Mooseman
 
@AstroCB Did you see the 3.1k candidate?
 
Although I think someone stepped in with 3.1k, so that might have changed.
^
 
Don't pour your souls over it, the show goes on at the end of the day :p
 
@AstroCB I'm on a list! Yay!
 
@AstroCB Yeah; if some of those people start getting booted, I'm going to start passionately fighting for your alternate boot criteria point. Shog will probably get the brunt of it.
 
6:02 PM
@AstroCB On what grounds? The 40 point score?
 
@Mooseman Rep
 
@JasonC Ooh – another @JasonC v. @Shog9 fight.
2
 
@Undo BOO
 
yeah, I know
 
16
Q: Can we use something other than reputation as the bottleneck for election primaries?

AstroCBWe recently began the sixth moderator election on Stack Overflow. There is a huge number of highly qualified candidates, and there are 23 overall at the time of this writing. That's great, but there's this to consider: After 7 days, the top 30 nominees, ordered by reputation, advance to the ...

 
6:03 PM
@Mooseman rep, read up how >30 candidate elimination works
 
But really, I'm kind of not worried. There's so many good candidates. It sucks for the people that get booted but at the end of the day we're still going to win in general.
 
^ this
 
@JasonC That's pretty much what I'm thinking, but the system is broken.
 
@AstroCB If he agrees with me I'll have to change my stance though. If he doesn't care at all I'll have to think of something completely unrelated. So, no promises.
 
True
 
6:04 PM
Lol
 
@AstroCB the problem is that there are a lot of actually qualified candidates.
 
Which is a fairly good problem to have
 
@Benjamin: I think their idea is that reputation isn't the filter for candidacy.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes, but there are also a few high-rep unqualified candidates. I really don't think it's a problem in this case since none of the people on that list really have a chance of winning, but it really would be a problem if those four or five candidates who really deserve it weren't running.
 
@Unihedro but I think reputation actually is very indicative and valuable, I really want moderators to also be actual users of the site - asking questions and answering them.
 
6:07 PM
Look, it's all very simple.
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 15 hours ago, by Jason C
Let's just give diamonds to the entire tavern and call it a day.
6
 
^
 
Gimme it!
 
yes, please
 
@AstroCB but there are maybe 20 qualified ones right now.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's a bit strange to link to a screenshot of deleted comments on a deleted post. But I really appreciate the next comment you left.
 
6:08 PM
Whoever got the M&M count the closest gets it
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Right, which is why it isn't really a problem this time.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's participation.
 
@JonEricson well, it's just an example to show my point, thanks. I really don't hold a grudge against bjb, I'm just worried - I want to see him a reformed man dedicated to constructive help.
 
users?tab=participation has better factors than rep.
 
Reformed cat*
 
6:09 PM
No offense but if I could do anything to the lounge I'd forbid people with more than x posts there from participation :P
I'd take people who are heavy users of the site over people who are enthusiastic about clean up any time.
 
@AlexisKing The best part is, the bottom of the boot list is also pretty much dominated by the tavern.
 
Which is why I think people like Martijn and Jon and Madera would make excellent mods.
 
It's still something that should be fixed. You can't just have people stripped out of elections before they even get a chance, and that's especially pertinent when you're doing that on such a monotonic metric like reputation. There's almost no use in someone with low rep entering, even if they're more qualified.
 
Their participation in SO makes them really strong candidates.
 
Madara
 
6:10 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Agreed.
 
@Unihedro Second Rikudo
 
@JasonC I guess @AstroCB was right.
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 24 hours ago, by AstroCB
Let's create the Tavern Party of Meta and have our own primary to prevent conflicts.
 
@Unihedro I call him Dor, also I have beers with the dude so I'm ok with my mistake.
 
@Undo Madara Uchiha.
 
@AlexisKing this stuff really bothers me :P
 
6:11 PM
Man, network-wide factioning already
What year is it!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum C'mon, it was just a joke! :P
 
Tavern vs. the Lounge, round 2
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The problem with bjb is that he's a bit...overzealous. If he believes in something, he's not really going to budge on it.
 
I think half of the top 500 rep list would make better mods than anyone (not from the said list, and not already a mod) from the tavern.
 
Hey, that's chat-roomist.
 
6:12 PM
Oh?
 
And I can see that being a large problem if he were called out on something as a mod.
 
I really don't think YCS would be a good mod
 
@JanDvorak he has 1 rep so there's that.
@AstroCB we've had very negative experiences with him in the JS room before. I haven't talked to him in about a year, people seem to like him so I hope he changed.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum now
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't necessarily disagree. I think there are major exceptions, but users with high rep would generally probably be good mods.
 
6:13 PM
@JanDvorak I said half the list.
@AlexisKing so you think unlike @AstroCB that the rep cutoff is a good criteria?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not sure about that. The top-reppers are usually preservationist, which doesn't jive well with the site's moderation policies.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the problem becomes when the other one are those who candidate
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Linking specific chat room participation to moderator ability (or lack of) is not a fair assessment.
 
Your arbitrary half doesn't outrule our arbitrary portion of the Tavern :p
 
The Grand Old Python Party have already had to split our votes between two contenders D:
3
 
6:14 PM
@JasonC I'm not the one who started it - it was claimed that tavern people would make good mods. So I completely agree with your statement.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't have a major problem with it. It doesn't favor me at all, and I think I'd make a fine moderator, but with my low rep, I totally acknowledge that people would be taking a chance.
 
just enroll whomever has the most posts in the tavern
 
@AstroCB they have a lot of time to spend, are likely smart and understand the system well. They're usually also very pragmatic.
 
@JanDvorak That'd probably be bjb
 
They don't feel pain when someone gains rep.
 
6:14 PM
Let's make the metric for booting be chat stars. Highest first vs. lowest first is left as an exercise to the reader.
 
ok... I take that back
 
Meta police people feel pain when someone gains rep.
 
... I beg to differ
 
@JanDvorak that's rarely the case though.
 
define "meta police"
 
6:15 PM
^
 
@JanDvorak actually, that'd be Tim Stone. I can get behind that
 
@AlexisKing Regarding low rep - I feel low-rep users should unlock more of the available administrative functionality before running for moderator
 
People who spend more time using the site's moderation facilities than any other part of the site. Although I might be a part of it.
 
Let's stop stereotyping parties of the network ;)
 
Then again, I'm not running for mod.
 
6:15 PM
34
A: What does "Meta police" mean?

AstroCBWell, it's a bit difficult to quantify, but I'll give it a try. The "Meta police" is a term generally used to describe users who don't actively contribute to the site content, but who, in the minds of many, are there only to moderate and, in some cases, "destroy," other people's posts. It's a t...

 
@BenjaminGruenbaum rarely is frequent enough when rolling back an entire election would be really embarassing
 
Also, I don't want to do more free QA.
 
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, Mar 27 '14 at 2:04, by Undo
Whenever I'm on SO, I like to do moderationy things. But I can't do very many, because I don't have much rep because I spend all my time doing moderationy things :(
 
One of the reasons I'm running for mod is that I've had access to the full suite of 10k tools for like 4 years now
 
@meagar Is there really much more administrative power at 20k?
 
6:16 PM
I've pretty much maximized my contribution with the available toolset
 
^^^^ what @Undo quoted
I had a painful time collecting rep since 2k because I started burninating tags
 
@meagar Yes, I have that. I have over 10k rep.
 
@Undo nope, it's jcolebrand.
 
I'm not talking about you then :p
 
6:17 PM
@hichris123 where'd you get that?
 
But honestly, I came into the site after getting rep was quite as easy as it used to be, and I like answering questions in very low-traffic tags.
 
In any case, I think it's best to talk about the nominees on an individual basis, independent of whatever group of people they're involved in.
4
 
:)
 
@JasonC I again have to agree - I wasn't the one who brought the tavern up :)
 
It was a joke, albeit poor as context.
 
6:18 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Was that me? I'm just trolling. :)
 
:/
 
I would say that if I had to choose one chatroom to give out a couple diamonds in, it'd be the Tavern
Well actually it'd be TL, but it doesn't count
But we aren't choosing mods that way, so it doesn't matter
 
How's the JS room doing in your eyes?
 
Anyway, look: I think I'd make a fine moderator, but there are tons of people who are probably even more qualified than I am running in this election, and that's fine.
 
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 17 hours ago, by AstroCB
3 hours ago, by AstroCB
It's a tad sad that there are a few candidates whom I've never heard of who barely participate in moderation at all yet have rep way higher than me and are going to end up shoving me and other lower-rep-but-more-active-with-moderation candidates out simply because of that.
 
6:20 PM
@Undo I'd pick php, lots of people there that'd make good mods and Gordon comes from there. ThiefMaster comes from JS but we're not really as serious.
 
@hichris123 oh, duh
 
I came from Java so I'd already had lost.
 
ircmaxell would make a good mod imo, so would Joe Watkins, PeeHaa and SecondRikudo (he's also in JS though), and other people there are really good.
 
(Java sucks :P)
 
6:21 PM
@Benjamin whoa we have half-claim on Thief too :P
 
Second Rikudo would will be awesome
 
Maybe Rebol, lots of high calibers there. Definitely not Lounge C++ though :D Only two people there who I trust.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum you should run too
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Ugh, the PHP tag is filled with garbage. Back when I was really trying to gain rep to hit 10k, I spent some time there. :(
 
@JanDvorak ircmaxell ran before (IIRC), and is probably super busy now)
 
6:21 PM
@AlexisKing I got my ability to read questioned there, does that count?
 
@AlexisKing yes, and these guys are doing a lot of amazing work cleaning it up, it'd be a lot more problematic if it wasn't for the cv-ring and those guys. Also - it's just more reason for a mod from the tag.
 
I was tempted to suggest a Q for the potential mods to answer re. cv-pls-rings actually.
 
Oh, also the C# room, Roel would make a good mod, so would Reed and KandellFrey, lots off guys there
Oh, and Python, all the rooms except for us (JS) have nice people - we're the only room full of jerks
TTYL, beer.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I agree. I spend a lot of time in the CV queue with filtered.
 
Official response:
1
A: Can we use something other than reputation as the bottleneck for election primaries?

Tim PostI almost proposed merging the nomination and primary parts of the election after almost not making it through to the primary in 2011 myself. Had a curious passer-by not dug through my history and noticed that I dropped a 500 rep bounty (we used to toss in +50) on a question that really belonged ...

 
6:26 PM
That's a good response.
 
It's saddening.
 
But it's also a matter of perspective. Tim is awesome. But who's to say that if Tim did get booted that somebody else equally awesome wouldn't be making that same post right now? In a parallel universe, somebody else just made the same post as Tim, and everybody reading it thought, "yeah, it would have really sucked if BizarroTim had been booted". If that makes sense.
I'm not supporting the current system, I'm just trying to say that things tend to work out.
 
Night!
 
my mind hurts
 
Peace
 
6:38 PM
@JasonC Now let's have an argument about how BizarroTim would've been way better than plain old boring Tim.
 
Way to go, vanilla Tim.
 
noooo
mind.blow()
 
uh oh, someone just blew a mind
 
@Unihedro ReferenceError: undefined is not a function
 
@rlemon Can't wait until Chrome 42 (or is it 43?):
> Uncaught ReferenceError: mind is not defined
 
6:46 PM
\o/
 
Are nominees automatically withdrawn if their mind is blown?
 
in Java, 27 secs ago, by Unihedro
The attention everyone's shown on my candidate post has made my time writing it worth.
It's been fun, winning or not. :p
Night, and don't let the greed of power get over you :)
 
Peace
 
@maveň yes?
 
7:19 PM
2
A: Can we use something other than reputation as the bottleneck for election primaries?

Jon EricsonReading the question reminded me of something Joel wrote about interviewing: On the other hand, if you reject a good candidate, I mean, I guess in some existential sense an injustice has been done, but, hey, if they're so smart, don't worry, they'll get lots of good job offers. There will b...

 
I feel ashamed because I'm not really that good to find a more interesting role anywhere else. :P
 
8:09 PM
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 42 secs ago, by AstroCB
Half of the transcript is bjb and Benjamin Gruenbaum arguing.
@AstroCB Well then, talk about more productive things. :)
 
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 2 mins ago, by AstroCB
26 candidates in the first 24 hours.
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 3 mins ago, by AstroCB
We're definitely going over.
 
@JasonC Just trying to move the conversation over here...
 
nooo don't throw me out :) I want to win :P
 
Which is why it concerns me that this is .
 
@AstroCB Probably, yeah, though it'll be interesting to see by how much.
 
8:11 PM
@AstroCB Yeah… will it be done in 6-8 years?
 
Tim says he wants to see what the other elections are like with candidate score, but Stack Overflow is the only place where we'll ever go over 30 candidates.
And it's pertinent because this is the first election since SO election #1 that we're going over.
 
@AstroCB What else could it be besides deferred? Nobody has a convincing concrete solution yet, unfortunately.
 
I'd still wait for it to go over before making any judgements.
 
@JasonC Exactly, but it concerns me nonetheless.
 
Who knows how many people are going to nominate themselves?
 
8:13 PM
There won't be another chance to test anything for another year.
 
At this rate, more than comfortable
 
Elections aren't necessarily yearly
 
A year or more
 
@AlexisKing I'll extrapolate a curve after another day of nominations.
@GraceNote @meagar That's true.
 
@AstroCB That's true; but it's at least on the forefront of thought this year, which is a step in the right direction and further along than last year.
 
8:13 PM
There's two things to think about.
First - Do we actually hit the limit?
 
@JasonC I'm glad that the post got that much attention.
 
I don't think using the candidate score alone is a good idea, either, so it's not like there's an obviously good solution.
 
Second, more importantly - Do we lose a good candidate to the limit in exchange for a poor candidate?
 
@GraceNote The demand doesn't seem to lift that greater than yearly :)
 
> However, in its current form, the candidate score still has a few issues:

1. **It encourages gaming during the election period.** Making the bottleneck based on candidate scores would only encourage this more.
2. **It's still heavily skewed toward reputation.** 20 out of 40 possible points are earned from reputation (which is floored rather than rounded), so in essence you have the same problem. However, this does decrease the effect of reputation to a certain extent. The main problem here is that the candidate score metric [is not detailed enough](http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions
 
8:15 PM
Remember - no matter how many people make it into the primary phase, that will still yet be knocked down to 10 candidates for the election phase.
 
@GraceNote That's almost the right question. Actually, I think it's: Do we have less than 3 good candidates remaining after even good candidates are lost.
 
Brilliant!
 
@AstroCB Right, I read your answer (and upvoted it), but I don't think there's any obvious course of action to take right now.
 
@GraceNote At least that's done democratically, though.
 
Like I said before, it sucks for whoever gets booted, but if we have a strong selection of good candidates to begin with, we still win as a site in the end.
 
8:16 PM
@AstroCB Reputation is sort-of democratic. ;)
 
@JeremyBanks Doesn't really work on a macro-scale, but I guess.
 
Pretty much what Jason just said.
 
2 hours ago, by AstroCB
@JasonC That's pretty much what I'm thinking, but the system is broken.
Further,
2 hours ago, by AstroCB
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes, but there are also a few high-rep unqualified candidates. I really don't think it's a problem in this case since none of the people on that list really have a chance of winning, but it really would be a problem if those four or five candidates who really deserve it weren't running.
 
Let's assume there's 40 great candidates out there.
 
Ok.
 
8:18 PM
Which means that regardless of any all, we would shave off 10 of those before the primary.
 
Why? What's the 30 candidate cap for?
 
The system may be broken in the sense that 20 unqualified people may override 30 of them before they get to primary.
 
Also, if 3 good people end up elected in the end, and one of the people who got booted still complains about it despite the community gaining 3 good moderators, I'd say that person probably wasn't a good candidate to begin with and we dodged a bullet.
 
Same reason we have it to 10 for the final election phase.
 
@bjb568 To keep the selection size manageable for voters.
 
8:19 PM
@JasonC True :)
 
2 hours ago, by AstroCB
@BenjaminGruenbaum Right, which is why it isn't really a problem this time.
 
They're arbitrary numbers in a sense but the ultimate main point is that asking people to reasonably evaluate from a large number to make a reasonable decision in voting is hard to do for very large numbers.
 
This is a pretty much a repeat conversation.
 
yawns
 
Overall, I'm not overly concerned, but I think it's worth thinking about.
 
8:20 PM
dies
 
In theory, a 1000 person (primary/upvote-downvote) election could work if which candidates somebody can vote for is randomly assigned to a manageable chunk.
 
We are seriously thinking about it.
 
@Unihedro Your mind blew and you died in the same day. Rough day?
 
@GraceNote I didn't mean that you weren't; the two employee responses to that question demonstrate that. I'm just saying that that's why I brought it up in the first place.
 
But unless we want to, say, postpone this election when we actually kinda really need new moderators, then we have to let this go through while we evaluate what we can do based on the new system.
 
8:21 PM
@Jason thanks Stack Overflow
 
I was thinking about this earlier and also thought about hidden votes in the first phase. Is there any correlation between the order the candidates are displayed in the list and votes? How many people voted in last year's phases? Enough that if each person was hypothetically presented with a random subset of candidates in the first phase, the end result might be a good indicator? — Jason C 2 hours ago
 
@GraceNote Right, and I get it; thanks for listening to us, as a lot of people weren't really concerned about it before that Meta post.
 
It depends on how many people vote.
 
@GraceNote Bring back Stack Egg, see who can keep it alive the longest. Boom, done.
Drops mic.
 
Gotcha
 
8:22 PM
Whoever restarts the most sites wins.
 
Also no.
2
 
Haha
 
I was playing with A&M.se so I was glad :p
 
8:38 PM
Vote for me because I've always wanted to play with the mod tools but haven't had a chance.
 
... Just that? :/
 
OR ELSE
3
 
!!should I vote for Jeremy
Someone summon Cap here.
 
Haha, yes.
@JeremyBanks Maybe I'll change my platform next year to "FREE DAN DASCALESCU. NO MORE OPPRESSION. WE ARE THE 99%.".
Complete with doctored screenshots of nomination threads.
 
8:57 PM
@JasonC YES WE CAN!
 
Oh man, we're perilously close to uttering the O word.
 
Can't I make a political allusion for the sake of a joke without people reading into it? >_>"
 
Nope.
 
9:22 PM
"I've got to get out of the house now." -> Take off pajama pants, accidentally get distracted and put pajama pants back on instead of real pants. -> "Huh, weird, still got these pajama pants on, might as well stay in." I've done this 3 times now today. Vote for me.
 
@JasonC Good enough for me.
 
9:52 PM
@Unihedro sure
Public notice, I summoned our bot @CapricaSix here per @Unihedro's request. If the bot bothers you please ping me or just kick it. It's pretty helpful overall though.
 
10:07 PM
@JasonC Honesty wins...
...except in politics.
 
10:39 PM
1
Q: Flag totals inclusion in candidate score for 2015 moderator election nominees?

Jason SturgesIn years past, I recall seeing flag totals for nominees participating in an election. It was the value under "helpful flags": Why isn't that included in the "candidate score" of this years election? If the metric has lost its value, why do I see it on my profile? Why not see my ...

 
11:20 PM
One of the common trends I see in many of the current nominees is a goal to lighten the current workload, but not much beyond that. Are we primarily looking at moderators as just people to handle tasks, or are we actively looking for people who want to deal with other issues as well, such as putting a good face on the community, retaining new users, guiding community culture, etc.?
There's a few current candidates who have the latter attitude that I really like, but there also seems to be a general trend of feeling that moderators are just workhorses and not much more.
 
If all you give people is a hammer, everyone looks like a blacksmith
 
11:36 PM
I just had a mental image of an angry mob armed with hammers chasing a blacksmith.
@JanDvorak But more seriously, moderators are given more than just the hammer you're referring to. Mods and all users have the ability to express things in chat, on metas, and in comments, so that's one good tool. But, more importantly, mods have a little diamond next to their name, which carries a lot more weight in communications than an average user. That's a tool that can be used, too. So, the tools are there - if we're looking for people to use them, that is.
 
11:51 PM
@JasonC I tried to focus on that in my nomination (or at least my revised nomination after I freed up characters by removing URLs); I think communication is really important and, if the last year has taught me anything, relations between new and more experienced users need work.
 
@JasonC Those things are important too, but you don't need to be a moderator to influence the community. In fact, because of the flag backlog, becoming a mod is a good way to reduce your influence unless you have more time and energy to spend than most.
 
@JonEricson You don't need to be a moderator to influence the community, but if you are a moderator you carry considerably more influence that you can use as a tool. Meta posts with diamonds are viewed as "official", comments by mods effectively guide the community far more than a normal user's comments can. People naturally organize into hierarchies and look to perceived leaders for social cues. That's powerful stuff if you choose to use it. Do we want to focus more on that tool?
 
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