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8:00 PM
you're supposed to think about it for two seconds
and then realize that it's true.
like 1 + 1 = 2.
 
Learn one language, don't juggle several
 
it does not require citation.
 
yaa i am very comfortable with C @FredOverflow
 
@SterlingArcher You can reason about things you were told without them having citations.
 
@codejam.tk That means nothing for C++.
 
@codejam.tk Then I can highly recommend Bjarne's book.
 
@StackedCrooked /me ragequit
 
@Puppy It means he already understands control flow and variables and stuff.
 
heh.
 
lol citations
 
8:01 PM
@codejam.tk Learn whatever you want. There is no best though
 
I need other people to tell me if I'm right too
Literally can't think for myself
 
@CatPlusPlus I really like in JS how functions work. You can use different number of arguments, which makes allowance for API extension
 
I hate that.
 
@Puppy yaa i don't c++ but i have done C. Is this book right for me: amazon.com/A-Tour-C-Bjarne-Stroustrup/dp/1502343657
 
8:02 PM
@CatPlusPlus You're right!
 
everybody else can just use overloading or default arguments.
features that behave in predictable ways.
 
JS not respecting function signatures is shit that creates bugs where it shouldn't
 
precisely.
 
You can have varargs without compromising safety
 
@Puppy That doesn't work for random additional arguments you think of on the spot :P.
 
8:02 PM
But for that you have to know what the fuck you're doing
 
i.e. not C.
 
Xeo
Stupid. Fucking. Customs. Argh.
 
Plus API stability is a far more complex problem than 'use varargs'
 
@codejam.tk This is good: cprogramming.com/c++book
For learning syntax, not principals or best practices
 
learning syntax is irrelevant.
 
8:04 PM
No it isn't.
 
yes, it most assuredly is.
 
Depends what you want.
 
Xeo
oh ffs, you guys are still at it
 
@exitc0de but this book doesn't cover GUI part
 
Xeo
get a friggin room or something.
 
8:04 PM
@Puppy Well not in case of C++ :v
 
syntax is only good for one thing: migrating from one language to a syntactically similar one where the syntactic similarities also represent semantic similarities.
 
Learn C++ before learning C++ GUI
 
Or actually writing C++.
 
doesn't @exitc0de have code to write? Let him go do something productive :p
 
But I doubt that book mentions MVP or anything.
 
8:05 PM
this discussion is ridiculous
 
Wooo I have frontend servers registering themselves in the load balancer
Succcess
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes, @CatPlusPlus, do you guys agree with this?
 
@Xeo I did so much since this started
 
@codejam.tk If you know a language well, then read up on C++ best practices and then learn a GUI library like Qt
 
@Xeo What am I missing?
 
8:05 PM
answered mails, left work, bought food, ate food
played worms with a mate
 
I haven't really been paying attention.
 
played ff xiii
 
Xeo
@Mysticial nothing interesting
 
@Jefffrey Oh god you're still on this tangent
 
I think I'll finish ff xiii
and exitcode will still be here
talking about C++
 
Xeo
8:06 PM
> notexitcode
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, I'm still fighting for what I believe is the correct thing to do.
 
@AlexM. in his defense, this is the C++ room
 
We have to establish the goddamn framework so that we don't waste time later fixing hastily written short-term rules
 
@SterlingArcher no it's not
 
Oh. I should be at the bar already.
 
8:06 PM
If that's what you mean by "being on this tangent".
 
@AlexM. So what?
 
If it's not, then your tags on the room should be removed?
 
@CatPlusPlus That's not what I asked above.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't particularly see it having a goal
 
The framework is totally irrelevant with the above question.
 
8:07 PM
He's actually alright-ish.
 
exitc0de
 
what's the goal in your discussion?
 
@SterlingArcher Nope.
 
It's about interpreting rule #101.
 
@AlexM. Passing time.
 
8:07 PM
Also, someone change the topic now.
 
@Puppy so then this IS the C++ room?
 
@SterlingArcher Nope.
 
You can just talk to people for the sake of it.
 
these chocolates are gross :(
 
@exitc0de I am also embarassed to be associated with you.
 
8:08 PM
Why lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just don't like to promote that kind of trolling, but sure
 
And you're not
 
if you enjoy it
I won't stop you :)
 
Why does everyone think someone who is new is trolling.
What hath becometh of the internets.
 
@exitc0de this room is notoriously full of drama.
 
8:09 PM
@Jefffrey lol, he did propose that before simple majority. FFS
What a waste.
 
I can kind of see why.
 
@AlexM. Why do you assume malice?
 
@exitc0de This is one of the few online C++ books that isn't terrible. Good pick.
 
@SterlingArcher We don't drama, other people drama about us.
 
@FredOverflow Thanks. Really helped me.
 
8:10 PM
Is that why LRIO ragequit?
 
I have spent like 3 hours here.
 
@SterlingArcher When did that happen?
 
I should probably work.
 
@Puppy since I clicked this room, I've yet to see a positive attitude out of you. Is this how you treat anybody who likes JavaScript or disagrees with you?
@FredOverflow I read the transcript last week or so.
 
@FredOverflow You didn't know?
 
8:11 PM
@SterlingArcher Wait, did he treat you badly?
I missed that.
 
disagrees with me: no
 
He's not an owner anymore, so I can just kick him.
 
likes javascript: yes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes mainly because he disregarded any answers he received, and promptly changed his ideas just to further continue with the modern C++ alternative thing
 
8:12 PM
@AlexM. Well, he no longer does that.
 
well then, ignore what I said, I have rushed to a conclusion
 
You missed everything else.
 
@Jefffrey I have lost track of who ragequit and later ragecameback, sorry :)
 
I rejoined and saw him talking about C++
that was the first thing that came to mind
 
Who, me?
 
8:12 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, no I did not.
 
What?
 
@SterlingArcher Are you defending the triangle guy?
 
Oh, wow
 
exitcode or whatever is called
 
lol, triangle guy.
 
8:13 PM
just so I know if I have to plonk you too
 
Escher triangle
 
I should be at the pub.
 
you know, to save time to both of us
 
(lol triangle guy) I am to an extent. He's trying to learn, but he's encountering some heavy resistance from what I'm seeing
 
I want to be drunk too
Don't learn C++ it's a terrible idea
 
8:13 PM
@SterlingArcher It went both ways.
 
@SterlingArcher He is trying to troll. hth
 
@Jefffrey Nope.
 
Drink whiskey instead
 
Why would I waste my time?
Look at the questions I have asked and answered.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes missed the latter of that, then.
 
8:14 PM
@SterlingArcher Puppy barely interacted with him, though.
 
Important thing is that my consul-template stuff works
 
@exitc0de well, we've had a persistant troll in the JS room. Some people just have time to waste. It's pretty sad.
 
Oh god, too much multiquoting on dicsource.
 
@SterlingArcher People confuse new and trolling. I'm seriously anti-trolling.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes dick source? lol
 
8:16 PM
So let's start fresh! I actually have a couple questions
 
@SterlingArcher About what?
 
I hear C++ is the "main" (I use that term loosely) language for developing video games? (Assassins creed, COD, etc?)
Is this true?
Or is it a hodgepdge of developer's choice
 
Irish I were drunk
 
@SterlingArcher I guess. But its a bit of a stereotype.
A load of different languages are used. Unity uses C# which is quite popular.
But UDK uses C++ and then more lightweight scripting languages like Python or Lua.
 
17
Q: Why is c++ that powerful concerning game development?

Forlan07I was just wondering why c++ ist that powerful and performant for developing games. I wrote a lot of games in c# and delphi, always using the timer component to make objects "move". Another option for the movement were loops, but they are definitely not performant. So what technique does c++ use...

 
8:18 PM
game engines are mostly written in C++ for consoles.
 
15
Q: Game programming : C# or C++?

ChronixI've decided what I really want is to do game programming. So the question is, as a 18 years old who wants to learn self taught programming, what is the most suited programming language between C# and C++? (I should state that I don't care about Unix because I believe windows will be still the mo...

12
Q: Why is C/C++ preferred for game developers?

PaulSome people say it offers more control to developers, but what is it precisely that can be controlled through C++ which can't be controlled using, for example, Java?

@SterlingArcher You're not exactly the first to ask...
 
@SterlingArcher "Game Developers" are legendary for being shit programmers.
they're almost as bad as JavaScript.
 
@SterlingArcher Probably the one used for most big games. There are many many games out there not in C++.
 
@FredOverflow no way, really? :P
@Puppy go chew a newspaper
 
-43
Q: We should be able to vote for our posts

JohnsonJust now, I made an excellent answer and I feel more than entitled to vote for it. Could we please allow users to vote for their own posts?

 
8:19 PM
no thanks, I already ate.
 
@SterlingArcher See, now you are treating him badly.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes from what I took from those questions, C++ hands the developer control over the hardware, but you can lay down that foundation to integrate say Python on a higher level?
 
lol
 
Not sure why I pinged you, but yeah.
 
@SterlingArcher What has been your biggest project so far?
 
8:20 PM
@SterlingArcher C++ doesn't really give any hardware control.
 
Hmm, that's a good question.
 
The OS has absolute control over the hardware.
 
@FredOverflow 100loc
 
@FredOverflow I would say my NodeJS zombie map, 100% async, or my current coldfusion project at work
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wonder what people actually mean when they say "C++ gives you control over the hardware". Do they mean malloc and pointers, maybe?
 
8:21 PM
I'm prouder of my NodeJS map system though. I'm actually about to gut it and redo the routing structure
21
A: Why is c++ that powerful concerning game development?

Kenoyer130C++ give you finer grain of control over the actual hardware and bit pushing. For common business needs, a third generation language such as Java or C# is quicker to program and takes worries like pointers and garbage collection off the hands of the developer. This is at a cost of lack of ability...

 
@FredOverflow I have no idea, they clearly don't know shit about it
 
@Puppy I didn't ask about how big the biggest project was, but what. Yours is probably the compiler you're working on?
 
So that answer is wrong?
 
@FredOverflow I don't know. They probably don't know C++ or hardware.
@SterlingArcher Yes.
At least the first sentence.
 
@SterlingArcher So now you want to make an AAA game in C++?
 
8:23 PM
Aaaaaaaaand, after reading the rest, most of it, yes.
 
Speed isn't that important in regards to the difference between languages like that - does it really make that much difference to justify using one over the other.
 
?utf8=✓ lol
nice github
 
@FredOverflow github.com/RUJodan/SourceUndead it was my first NodeJS project, so it's not the best Node code.
 
@SterlingArcher Having fine control over a virtual address space is hardly control over hardware.
 
@BartekBanachewicz slowpoke
:P
 
8:23 PM
Games should be made in the language the maker knows and likes.
 
Memory, as seen by a program, is not "the hardware".
 
@FredOverflow AAA game? No, i'm not looking to build a game anytime soon outside of NodeJS
Not enough time
 
So why do you ask about C++ and games?
 
Curiousity
 
finally, exitc0de said something correct.
 
8:25 PM
yay
just write exitcode if that's easier.
:P
Or triangle guy.
Its a good looking triangle though
 
Who is triangle guy?
 
Me.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sorry, I'm not familiar with virtual address space
I'll google it
 
lmgtfy
 
@SterlingArcher It means you don't know shit about the hardware.
 
8:27 PM
I never claimed to know about hardware.
 
fair enough then.
 
From what I'm reading, it's like a controlled method in which the OS gives hardware control to a language/set of instructions?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is that what the virtual keyword is for? ;)
 
@SterlingArcher Well, in almost all OSes you'll ever deal with, a program has a contiguous set of memory addresses that it uses to, well, access memory. That is virtual because in actual hardware, the stuff that corresponds to those addresses can be spread all over the place, and it can actually not even be in hardware primary memory (aka RAM), but in secondary storage (aka swap space).
 
Xeo
hmm
if only it had free shipping to europe :<
 
8:30 PM
D:
 
C++ pointers are an abstraction on top of a virtual address space. A virtual address space is an abstraction over actual hardware storage.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Or GPUs, or memory mapped to network addresses, or any crazy thing the OS can come up with.
 
Traditional British boiled sweets ftw.
 
So by using virtual addresses, the OS can point to the hardware much easier than having a "fine grain control" over it?
 
Pear drops are amazing. :O
 
8:31 PM
@SterlingArcher Well, the benefit is that programs work regardless of where the OS decides to put them in physical memory, and they "think" they have all the memory for themselves. It also provides isolation, since all address spaces are separate between processes.
The OS has some mappings between each process virtual address space and actual physical storage locations.
(If you're curious, "paging" or "page tables" are good things to google for)
 
Huh, no kidding. That's pretty cool
And I'm assuming there's a fair amount of security measures involved so that a program simply can't say "Harddrive, you do this right meow."
 
right.
no user-mode program can directly talk to any hardware.
 
Depends
 
Is there a way so say, circumvent this user-mode?
 
Well okay no you still go through syscalls
 
8:34 PM
Of course there are systems built differently, but this is the most typical thing you find.
 
@Puppy But I can push the bits in C++ directly, it's so powerfuel!!!
 
@SterlingArcher The virtual address space contains only what the OS puts maps into it. So the OS just doesn't map any of the addresses that are mapped to hardware stuff into the individual process' virtual address space
 
let's hope not.
because that involves breaking the operating system.
 
@SterlingArcher That would be a vulnerability.
 
(I'm talking white hat here, by the way)
 
8:34 PM
if the OS is broken, then you could find a way.
but barring OS bugs, no.
 
Does rust compile natively?
 
Ok, nice.
 
yes.
I've seen some of their LLVM IR.
 
Hey Puppy didn't you disable UAC
 
8:35 PM
Some OSes provide ways to request the mapping of extra things into your address space.
 
Recommend any IDEs?
 
@CatPlusPlus On what?
 
Your PC
 
Rusty IDE?
 
on my home PC, yes I did.
 
8:35 PM
So if you want to talk to the harddrive, you have to ask the OS to do so on your behalf. Taking the harddrive example, you can either tell the OS to "please write this memory buffer to the file with this name on the harddrive", or you can ask the OS to "please map this file into my virtual address space". In the latter case, you can then just write to the appropriate addresses, and the data will go into the file
 
Okay I'm just checking it because that makes "let's hope no" really funny
 
@exitc0de Visual Studio, if you're asking about C++
 
why?
 
it's magic
 
You can map files to memory, which then lets you access them through those addresses, i.e., with pointers; you can map memory used by other processes (this usually requires extended privileges), etc.
 
8:36 PM
OS does let programs talk to hardware directly, software level privileges are used to control that
 
@SterlingArcher Shared memory, for example, is, at its most simplest form, just one chunk of physical memory that is mapped into the address spaces of two processes.
 
Well, not directly per se
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't really believe in anything other than formatting my hard drive.
 
But directly via syscalls
 
No Rust
@FredOverflow Rust.
 
8:37 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, but that's not related to C++ in any way.
 
Also, I use Xcode for C++
 
Are we talking about C++? Didn't notice
 
LET THE HATE FLOW THROUGH YOU
 
People keep upvoting my answer though I hit my rep cap
 
Rust doesn't have any fully featured IDEs D:
 
8:37 PM
Worst feeling there is
 
Like live errors!
 
@exitc0de You are aware that Rust is a very young language, right?
As in, it's not even finished.
If you want proper tools you want something older.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Neither is C++.
Well.
 
C++ is finished.
 
@Puppy Several times?
 
8:38 PM
that "finished" may not be what we'd want it to be, but it is finished.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes unfortunately most of this is over my head, but I appreciate you explaning all this
 
Pre 1.0 post 1.0
 
I know, but Rust is the only attractive alternative.
 
@CatPlusPlus Ah no, just telling SterlingArcher how "C++ gives you direct control over the hardware" is bullshit.
 
Alternative is the wrong word.
 
8:39 PM
So by finished you mean there exist finished standardizations for it?
 
Anyone know anything about haxe?
 
"The force awakens".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just noticed privilege talk :v
 
Hmm.
 
@exitc0de You mean the PlayStation emulator?
 
8:39 PM
I'm not sure I like this title for Star Wars VII
 
@exitc0de there are plenty of attractive alternatives. But don't worry about those. Learn one language first. :)
 
@exitc0de There are no finished attractive alternatives to C++.
 
@Jefffrey what's the title?
 
D just made things worse; Rust and Wide are far from done.
 
52 secs ago, by Jefffrey
"The force awakens".
 
8:40 PM
Haxe is a language
 
@SterlingArcher It's ok. At least now you are aware that those things exist.
 
Or a crosspaltform programming language that converts into other languages.
 
JavaScript.
 
Meh, I'll keep an eye on Rust. Looks really interesting.
 
8:40 PM
@exitc0de You mean like every other language out there?
 
Oh. I should put my Rust talk slides up.
 
@exitc0de Something that converts into other languages is called a compiler. :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's a lot to take in. JavaScript is a wee bit more abstracted from the hardware than C++ is lol
 
It exists :)
 
better: The Haxe programming language is a high level strictly typed programming language which is used by the Haxe compiler to produce cross-platform native code. The Haxe programming language is easy to learn if you are familiar already with either Java,C++,PHP,AS3 or similar object oriented languages. The Haxe programming language has been especially designed in order to adapt the various platforms native behaviors and allow efficient cross-platform development.
 
8:41 PM
@SterlingArcher The interesting thing is that you can just bring the hardware up to the language instead of the language down to the hardware, and it works just fine.
 
by the way
 
I hope Rust gets an IDE.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh yeah, I forgot you were a Rust expert :P
 
Are you saying I could bring the hardware up to the JS level?
 
I've spent a few days fucking aroudn with ASP.NET (WebForms and MVC)
 
8:42 PM
For christs sake, I already lost like 50 rep I could've had :'(
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What do you use
 
I think that you could really do better than that with Rust or Wide.
 
@SterlingArcher That would basically consist of having an interpreter that provides the right APIs.
 
Oh
 
@Puppy speaking of which, how is Wide coming along?
 
8:43 PM
@thecoshman I'm going to resume work on it this weekend.
 
@SterlingArcher I'll try to show you how it could look. Give me a moment, and forgive any JS faux pas I might make.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah, write an API that gives access to some process, and call it via an XHR or something
 
I cant find wide
6
 
@thecoshman Got any other drink recommendations?
 
Is it actually a language?
 
@SterlingArcher Or not even remotely.
 
No worries, I'm no expert myself. Competent, but no expert lol
 
@milleniumbug lots.
 
Oh, right, Node. Of course.
 
8:44 PM
© Puppy 2014
Love it
 
Oh - you develop wide.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes like using it?
 
@milleniumbug Cuba Libre
 
I'll probably try use Rust with Sublime Text
 
@exitc0de the rest of us provide valuable advice by endlessly making fun of him for it :)
 
8:45 PM
@SterlingArcher if you're in nodejs, you can write node modules in C++. So you can write a bridge between C++ (and what it has access to) and JS.
 
@CatPlusPlus does that relate to NodeJS being written in C++?
 
Not really.
 
you'll find that it's the same for most languages. In PHP, you can write C extensions. Same for python, etc.
 
@FlorianMargaine I didn't know you could bridge it like that O.o wow
 
@jalf Patches welcome.
 
8:46 PM
Rust would be a lot more popular if there was an IDE for it,
 
Many languages have "foreign function interfaces", which you can use to call stuff from the outside, like system calls.
 
Read the rules or we'll eat you. And we'll enjoy it.
15
 
?
What?
 
The only "hard" part is the implementation of that function in JS. It can just be a magical interpreter hook that calls the "C function".
 
8:47 PM
@exitc0de Just some maintenance task.
 
@CatPlusPlus joke's on you, I'm not kosher.
 
Joke's on you we don't give a fuck
 
Seriously - Rust needs an IDE.
C++ has Xcode :D
 
I wrote "C function" in quotes because C isn't really needed here. It's just the way we refer to functions that can be invoked in a particular manner (which happens to be the one way they work in common C implementations, hence the name)
 
Rust needs Rcode
 
8:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus well that's a crappy joke
 
Don't like Vim.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ha, no way. I used SIGKILL in my application before (wasn't the right function but whatever) and had no idea it correlated to that
 
Ugly and old. And featureless. D:
 
8:49 PM
@exitc0de works.
 
What, Vim?
Or replying?
:19828543
 
@SterlingArcher Basically, there's a specific convention that people came up with to represent function calls in machine code. That convention is how most C implementations do function calls, so the name comes from there. Some languages have ways to explicitly tell "this function is to be called in the 'C way'", and that lets you bridge stuff.
 
FWIW I was trying to detect a server disconnection and track the re-connection. Turns out express.io doesn't work too well on that aspect, and Florian helped me write a timeout to give a moment for the client to trigger a reload websocket and establish connection again
 
You can't detect a disconnection
 
8:51 PM
You did :D
 
What's the most sophisticated Rust IDE so far?
 
@CatPlusPlus express.io claimed to be able to, but the function was completely broken
 
@exitc0de There are none.
 
I should probably move to a 'Rust' chatroom.
lol
 
There's no difference between disconnection and long wait
 
8:52 PM
Sublime text?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes linux is a thing :P
 
I mean you can detect 'proper' disconnection
 
Now, @martinfernandes with an introduction to (handwritten) Rust. http://t.co/3dalmO1D7a
One picture!
 
But this isn't really the interesting part
 
@FlorianMargaine basically you told me to set a session timeout to wait for the client
 
8:53 PM
Is there a video of that?
The rust talk
 
ew, lost format
 
Shit, people waiting for me at a bar.
See you later.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you prefer C++ or Rust
 
You can't tell if you've stopped receiving data because the packets got delayed or lost or because the endpoint disappeared completely
 
Oh noes.
 
8:53 PM
oh, that was a long time ago
 
this is going to be good
 
lol haskell.
 
@CatPlusPlus exactly, it turns out in Node, a client refreshing the screen triggers the "disconnect" function. That function is useful, except for that case. So, set a timeout in the session, so that if the client simply refreshes the browser, clear the timeout and the session is restored
 
I still don't understand why does it matter so much that num(males) == num(females) in any given job.
That's not the end goal, is it?
 
8:56 PM
What the hell is this:
 
@CatPlusPlus Tried it. Need something fancier.
 
Martinho Fernandez?
 
A poor attempt at drifting?
 
@Columbo Just robot being drunk.
At 11 in the morning.
 
@Jefffrey Is that what he's called inside here? I thought it was robor or nobot?
2
 
8:58 PM
all of those
 
I guess
 
I don't drive.
 
drive is life
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ich schätze in Berlin ist das ja auch ziemlich überflüssig.
 
8:59 PM
Ich heisse exitcode
Ich wohne in England
 
@exitc0de Me too
 

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