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12:04 AM
@GrahamChiu FYI I added a shut up command to the bot which room admins can use to completely kill her in case of emergency
 
@johnk for the bot I use in my software, I have a 'sleep and a 'wake up command
This was for a Rebol chat client I wrote some years ago
 
12:21 AM
@GrahamChiu Nice idea. @HostileFork also suggested a check along the lines of if more than the last X messages were from the bot then quit to minimise the chance of strange loops
 
@johnk sounds drastic
@johnk could just go to sleep instead of quiting
 
@GrahamChiu Sleep would be fine. Just need to think about the best way to implement it
 
@johnk I guess you could just set a global sleep boolean
 
12:36 AM
@GrahamChiu created an issue
 
 
3 hours later…
3:35 AM
Bad news: I'm sick. Good news, hope to have another video for everyone... shortly.
 
3:47 AM
@HostileFork sick of video editing?
 
You are the doctor, that could be it
Hey @AstDerek. New avatar, I see.
 
@HostileFork Yes, @onetom said the thumb of the last one was not very friendly
 
@AstDerek Eh...friendly icons are for pushovers. Gotta get those angry eyebrows in there. :-)
 
took a while to change it, gravatar kept redirecting me to wordpress.com for an authorization, which already had
 
@AstDerek :) that was your interpretation, brother. i just asked if that's your middle finger on your avatar... i didn't have any problem w it. just mentioned in case u were not aware of it
 
3:56 AM
Now that you are no longer discussing about the builds: I think it's a good thing when you talk about it here. It let's other devs to see the way a team solves differences regarding technical aspects of code
@onetom thought you were afraid of me, and took steps to solve it ;)
 
@AstDerek u did, see, i already call u my bro ;D
 
@onetom :D
 
@AstDerek There's sort of a topic priority thing here, we don't want to drown out new user questions or addressing Q&A on the site with talk about development of the core tools. But as long as we're here, it keeps us on the chat front page and people stop by. Also, it's better than any other chats I know about at this time.
 
@HostileFork It is, at least for me. The idea about rebolbot showing some snippets is good too, everything in this room is rebol related, not much noise
 
Well, you do have to have a little bit of personality to keep things interesting and understand people better, and their intentions, and what perspectives/motivations they are coming in with.
Speaking of RebolBot, I rewrote the page as a suggested edit but no one has approved it. StackApps may not have a lot of people empowered to do reviews, because the points are so few and far between to come by. :-/ @GrahamChiu or anyone empowered: want to review and do it by hand? new-rebolbot-description.txt
 
4:09 AM
@rebolbot do 'reply
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> 'reply
== reply
 
@RebolBot
literal: 'reply
probe :literal
probe literal
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> literal: 'reply probe :literal probe literal
reply
reply
== reply
 
@RebolBot
literal: to lit-word! 'reply
probe :literal
probe literal
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> literal: to lit-word! 'reply probe :literal probe literal
'reply
reply
== reply
 
4:13 AM
@AstDerek Related question:
5
Q: Why doesn't Rebol 3 honor quoted function parameters that are parenthesized?

HostileForkThe DO dialect uses series of category PAREN! for precedence, and will usually boil away the underlying parentheses structure prior to invoking a function. However, it used to be possible in Rebol 2 to specify in a function's definition that you wanted it to suppress evaluation of parentheses at...

 
@RebolBot
obj: make object! []
key: 'some-property
append obj :key
obj/:key: 'some-value
probe obj
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> obj: make object! [] key: 'some-property append obj :key obj/:key: 'some-value probe obj
make object! [
    some-property: 'some-value
]
== RESULT is an object of value:
   some-property   word!     some-value
 
You seem to have confused however Kaj's Rebol wrapper works, there. (The == RESULT doesn't happen in the normal evaluator)
@RebolBot
make object! [some-property: some-value]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
>> make object! [some-property: some-value]
*** ERROR
** Script error: some-value has no value
** Where: make
** Near: make object! [some-property: some-value]
 
@HostileFork make object! [some-property: 'some-value]
 
4:24 AM
@RebolBot
obj: make object! []
key: 'some-property
append obj :key
obj/:key: 'some-value
probe obj/:key
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> obj: make object! [] key: 'some-property append obj :key obj/:key: 'some-value probe obj/:key
some-value
== some-value
 
@AstDerek Yes, I was just pointing out why putting a word-valued-thing into an object needs to be literalized in the object's internal representation
 
I do get that literal: 'reply is a word that contains a word, to pass around the contained word, I need to use :literal to deference it, am I wrong?
 
@AstDerek Not on the append, it seems. A pro and con of Rebol is that the evaluator logic has the freedom to "DO what it wants to DO", as it were. So because it is more common to want a fluent way to pick keys out of an object like obj/some-property, and because an alternative representation exists if what you actually wanted was to have that word be looked up and holding a variable, the decision in the evaluator is to go with the common case.
"Informed by theory, driven by practice... and causing formalists to tear their hair out for 15 years and counting." :-)
As we've mentioned, what the evaluator is seeing there is just a path tinkertoy. You could make similar judgment calls in your dialects.
@RebolBot
something: quote obj/:key
probe type? something
probe length? something
probe type? first something
probe type? second something
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> something: quote obj/:key probe type? something probe length? something probe type? first something probe type? second something
path!
2
word!
get-word!
== get-word!
 
4:38 AM
@HostileFork Is it possible to concatenate a function that returns a word! to build a path?
 
@RebolBot
the-word: func [] [return 'bird]
the-path: to path! compose [(the-word) (the-word) (the-word)]
print [mold the-path {is the word!} youtube.com/watch?v=2WNrx2jq184]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> the-word: func [] [return 'bird] the-path: to path! compose [(the-word) (the-word) (the-word)] print [mold the-path "is the word!" youtube.com/watch?v=2WNrx2jq184]
bird/bird/bird is the word! youtube.com/watch?v=2WNrx2jq184
 
@AstDerek There might be another way, but there's one way. :-)
 
5:14 AM
does anyone know any better html calendar generator: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/custommenu.html
this one is not open source so i can't hack it :/
 
 
1 hour later…
6:30 AM
@HostileFork I don't want to creep you out but:
in JavaScript, 8 hours ago, by Badger Girl
@OctavianDamiean Our safeword is HostileFork
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well, any publicity is good publicity, I suppose.
 
@HostileFork I remember you said code cannot be fully expressed by text or something along the lines?
 
@AstDerek I said that text is a medium which has certain limitations--from my perspective--which can parallel the difference between using a raster vs. a vector editor for graphics. Historically it was my opinion that code should be represented and manipulated as a graph database, using a tool more complex than the sort of thing you write email in or draw ASCII art.
 
i like this raster vs vector analogy!
"Historically it was my opinion" -- u mean it's not your opinion anymore?
 
@AstDerek I've been lucky so far regarding my hands not giving up on me. I can type pretty fast, and I wouldn't like wearing out my voice by talking...moreover the sound medium is tough to share e.g. by listening to music while talking...need a cyborg brain or something to do that well.
 
6:41 AM
@HostileFork just an option, and you can get used to it, as when people go to the pub "to talk"
 
@onetom I still believe in projectional editing of a structure more complex than text to represent programs. I think it is the way of the future, just as they don't design Boeing 777s using Microsoft Paint...but rather a complex CAD program which can test the whole plane for consistency before a single part is laid down.
However, there are other ways of thinking, and sometimes the temptation when you're given a tool which is capable of managing complexity you will not think as much about eliminating it.
 
@HostileFork any example of such a tool? im not sure what are you referring to. my 1st thought was the various package managers. i see people are bundling few couple of lines of code into full blown packages. that sounds a bit like what u just described.
 
It reminds me of the old "race to try and have the biggest most scalable list box in terms of number of entries". I saw a number of controls demos showcasing that in libraries as a selling point. As if anyone would want to scroll through a million element list box. HTML was decidedly lower tech, but has triggered some more thoughtful practice in design to make suggestions or get you to a short list of top hits.
 
the smalltalk code browser is also a complexity management tool, but i think they managed to cut it down to a minimum
 
@HostileFork cannot stop thinking about this
 
6:51 AM
yeah, that's a bit like @HostileFork -- he is quite right about the future but
a, we don't really get what is he talking / thinking / dreaming about
b, looks crazy
c, too vague to grasp
>;-D
 
@onetom but I think I know, just I don't know how to say it in english :S
 
@AstDerek I'm pretty sure the future will actually be about like this
 
@HostileFork :D awesome, amazing, scary, funny
 
@onetom I just go with "scary" on that one
 
@HostileFork but some think the future will be like this
Anyway, I think you mean complex relationships cannot be truly expressed by code, which is linear, so to speak, so we need more tools able to navigate around these relationships in a graphical way
I remember Xcode has some drag/drop/shift options to create relationships and dependencies, or something alike
 
7:01 AM
@AstDerek More like saying that the same technologies which people talk about with the semantic web apply to code too. Brittle, potentially-colliding, textual names and ASCII structures that have to be analyzed to recover whatever intent was in the programmer's mind are just like using text to refer to something like "Boston" on the web and having to figure out if you meant the band, the city, the basketball game...
Gotta sleep for the moment though... back tomorrow, with a video I hope. :-/ Nite all...
 
Don't say bye or good night, makes me feel guilty when I don't do it ;P
 
 
1 hour later…
8:15 AM
@HostileFork Done. Thanks
 
 
2 hours later…
9:47 AM
0
Q: Is there a function to decode encoded unicode utf-8 string like in a post form?

WayneTsuiI want to store some data with a html form and Rebol3 cgi, but for unicode charactors like Chinese, I get the encoded form of the data, like %E4%BA%BA(this is for the Chinese charactor "äŗŗ"; it's utf-8 form is #{E4BABA}).There is a trick to decode this: remove the '%' and construct it's correspond...

 
@HostileFork What's the big problem that our Saphir code is not (yet) available? I don't understand it. Do you fear that you might be locked into our version? That's just nonsense. So, what's a real fact why people shouldn't use Saphir releases?
 
10:13 AM
I'm curious too. I feel the tension around this topic all the time, but licensing is still a blurry topic for me (although I was following the whole rebol open-sourcing thread closely)
It would be nice if all of you could discuss it here, openly, transparently.
Im very sure there are only a few simple misunderstandings behind the issue.
 
What's blurry about licensing?
You can use our Saphir for whatever you like.
All the code we publish you can use too for whatever you want.
And, as said several times, there are some parts, that we won't be publishing the code for. This shouldn't affect anyone at all.
 
Im really not the most competent here about this, but what I made out of all the talking is people see bugfixes in the binaries which hasn't been contributed back to the open source version (but i might be wrong)
@RobertM.Münch to me what u just said is clear and fine as an end user... and also as a fellow developer who is trying to make a living.
 
@onetom Yes, this happens. This is mostly due to that it takes quite some time to keep it all in sync. We might work on things, where we do fixes / changes etc. to get these back to the open repository with all backgrounds, discussion etc. just takes time. And that's the most limiting resource.
So, the way we want to go is, that we publish our soruces (except the stuff we don't want to pubish) to Github and anyone can merge back and forth as they like.
Again, this will happen. But it has no high priority for us.
 
 
3 hours later…
1:12 PM
@RobertM.MĆ¼nch Hi Robert. As I have said, it is not a legal problem, it is a problem of leading to redundant efforts. I'm not suggesting you are not allowed to work how you like on your schedule, and release what you want when you want to. But if the community waits on implementing things like the TLS scheme with the understanding that you will release it "someday" then it creates problems for us when someday does not come.
We work pretty hard here too--for free I will add--in building a positive impression for Rebol/Red in the open source community. And I'm encouraging people to exercise the right to protect our work, just as you can exercise your right. It feels very much like my predictions have come true, and that by not using LGPL+classpath it creates the same kind of "wait and see" problem that kept people hanging on Rebol Technologies when certain things were needed but not coming.
@RobertM.Münch Clear labeling is also very important. If Saphir source is not available as a tarball or zip, the website shouldn't claim that it is. (Carl expressed surprise at the conference that the source wasn't available...Andreas was surprised, and the page saying that the source is available--which was up until recently--may be gone now.)
It was deemed more important to have commercial interests working in service of Rebol which let them use the source on their terms than to bind them in the license with a GPL-derived one. The decision was made, and we live with it. I was hoping that would mean that specialized functions for consulting and industry which were not of general interest would be the main area.
But when fundamental features like https, an Android build, or encapping are on the table for what might be forked off and kept closed for competitive advantage... we simply have to reimplement them and can't get in a holding pattern of wait-and-see.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:55 PM
"We work pretty hard here too--for free I will add--in building a positive impression for Rebol/Red in the open source community." - that is arguable in the light of dishonesting efforts of one of the biggest sponsors (in terms of contributed code, speaking not about the code that potentially will be contributed, but about the code that has been contributed)
"It was deemed more important to have commercial interests working in service of Rebol which let them use the source on their terms than to bind them in the license with a GPL-derived one." - this is just your own interpretation. The choice of the license was Carl's decision and he made it following the advice of a very qualified lawyer and his personal friend.
 
0
A: Is there a function to decode encoded unicode utf-8 string like from a form?

rgchrisI have a library called AltWebForm that en/decodes percent-encoded web form data: do http://reb4.me/r3/altwebform load-webform "field=%E4%BA%BA" The library is described here: Rebol and Web Forms.

 
@Ladislav I believe that is fact, not opinion, and documented pretty well.
 
I find such words to be a misinterpretation of the known facts.
Also, of course, there has been a discussion where many people expressed their opinions. So, whatever your misinterpretation is, it is just doing a disservice to the community to cast doubts on such basic community things that are not in your (or mine) power to overturn.
 
To reiterate, I do not have a problem with Saphirion having a closed source project, or even going off and building a closed source encapper. Maybe it will help. Maybe some people will use it. I don't know. The point is just that a community open source roadmap is contentious with that.
 
Community open source - who do you think made the initial commits ?
 
4:05 PM
If someone makes an interesting modification to Rebol open source, and wants to use https, we can't tell them "oh, just patch your changes onto Saphir". We simply can't. And so we just want to be clear.
 
Surely not you (I know it, I personally know the man who did)
 
So we have to be clear: Rebol does not have https and we don't know when it will have it, it has to be written.
 
It has been written, at least twice up to now.
 
That's the language we have to use, and we have to maintain a clear line between Saphir and Rebol. I didn't say we can't talk about it, or mention its existence, but we can't conflate the two projects.
 
Both of the sources are not available due to time restrictions of the specific subjects.
Make a clear line between yourself and Rebol, that is my advice
 
4:09 PM
Last I checked my website is called "hostilefork.com", and I am an icon of a fork. I have not asked for collaborator access to the repository and repeatedly emphasize my clear separation as an advisor and liason to the needs and attitudes of the free software community.
 
And, to be absolutely clear: I think that you are doing a disservice to Rebol community casting doubts at: the main Rebol sponsor in the terms of contributed code (I mean Carl, when misinterpreting his motivations for the choice of the license), and also to the second main sponsor.
 
And I'm not the only one who feels that it's an uneasy situation to be in when we have to think of a community development roadmap, as well as how everything ties in with Red, which hasn't had these kind of problems. @DocKimbel does speak about the importance of "freedom", and these are the sort of obstacles he wishes to avoid.
So I'm not really out on a limb here, and what I'm saying isn't disparaging. I'm making requests for clarity. I believe if things were laid out completely clearly then people would make their own decisions, and that's the best idea.
And I do appreciate the work, bugfixes, and good thinking contributed by all involved. Rebol is an interesting project precisely because of that attention.
 
You speaking about @DocKimbel is also a hipocrisy when criticizing Carl for the lic. choice when doc's license actually shares many properties with Apache 2.0
Do you think I am blind not seeing what it is you are doing?
 
I don't really think I'm too opaque in favoring open source, and GPL-style freedom, and pushing as hard as I can for work to be carried out in the open so that anyone can pick it up and adapt to their needs.
 
You are maximally hypocritic pretending to favour GPL-style and at the same time praising Doc and criticizing Carl for doing essentially the same choice of license.
"I have not asked for collaborator access to the repository" - do you find it to be a honest position?
Not that you do actually need to ask for such an access. The priciple is that you can contribute without asking.
 
4:24 PM
This conversation is long and I think based on a lot of misconception. I didn't criticize Carl for the choice of license, I just said we wound up in a predictable situation. Red draws a different audience from being open source from the start, whereas Rebol was dropped into a community that already had acceptance of closed source.
 
"when we have to think of a community development roadmap" - of course, it is an uneasy situation. How you can influence the roadmap? There are only a few ways, every one of them needing some kind of contribution from you. If you do not intend to do that, then you cannot think your "roadmap" may have any influence on the community project
 
The roadmap issues I look at, for the moment, are about building a model for acceptance of growth for Rebol and Red. I'd rather code, all things being equal, but as I've said I don't think the code is the problem right now. It's process, presentation, and details... like the situation of our conversation here.
I'm pretty thick-skinned, but if a rabid open source contributor came in and faced a reaction when expressing disbelief that they started getting excited about Rebol and then found large important features were coming from an executable without source, they might get into an argument and you could turn them off to it.
 
"The roadmap issues I look at, for the moment, are about building a model for acceptance of growth for Rebol and Red" - why do you think I (or maybe even some native speakers) should be able to understand such a complicated statement?
If I take it as I think I should, the statement does not make any sense at all.
 
How about "Coding is great. But I think that without some work on the websites, tutorials, YouTube videos, and having us agree on 'what the story is', we will present a very confusing situation for a newcomer. They will not stick around, and so I work on those issues because I think getting more hands on deck to code will be easy if we get those things right."
And my point is that just as we have to answer what the story and relationship is between Rebol and Red (a difficult story to have an answer for) we then have to ask what the relationship is with Saphir. If we have arguments like this where people who are in a position to answer that question are always disagreeing then we should fix that.
 
I am certainly if favour of as many tutorials, website articles, YouTube videos, and whatnot as can be.
 
4:39 PM
Well this story thing is an issue too. Let us say they come in here and say "oh, those Rebol people, they're factionalized...they argue all the time". Or if they come one day and hear one thing, and then come another and hear something different, and then it just echoes on the Internet where people already will be picking fights with Rebol for having slashes instead of dots to pick things out of objects.
I feel we've made good steps with Rebol and Red forming some idea of how to leverage each other's work and collaborate where it makes sense. And we saw how even little things like changing the room name to [Rebol] (and Red) to [Rebol and Red] can help with that... with of course bigger things like conferencing together.
 
"what the relationship is with Saphir" - this is one thing you have wrong at present. The relationship with Saphirion is that it is one of the main Rebol sponsors. Saphir is some code and documentation contributed under the "Saphirion" orgainization, at its website, etc...
...and of course at the "Saphirion" GitHub
If you try to give some ugly head to Saphririon, you are doing a disservice to the community
 
I haven't done that. I have mentioned that some people have projects and don't want to (or can't use) a closed source tool. People quickly run up against things like the "no https" and I said that we need to have a clear coherent answer before jumping to saying "go use Saphir". Just as I don't like us to respond to complaints like "oh, the console is messed up, go use Rebol2".
 
Also, I do not intend to cast any doubts on the Red project, but I am having a lot of reasons why I did not commit more to it than I did. I would say that the [Rebol and Red] name is not exactly my cup of tea due to some Red properties I will never accept as being compatible with the original Rebol idea.
 
I think it's okay to say "Not implemented yet. Want to help write it?" And by a similar token, I have suggested that instead of jumping to linking another different closed-source binary, we can also say "https is not implemented yet. Want to help write it?"
The choice of whether to mention Saphir or not is a lot like the choice of choosing to bring up Rebol2 or not. It sort of depends on who you are talking to. But as I said...I think that if you put it in context, people can make their own decisions. We still will mention Rebol2 if people insist long enough that it's okay for their needs.
Anyway, I'm not asking for github commits of everything if it doesn't make business sense. I thought the tarball/zip was fine and we could do the work or not. Or maybe choose another implementation, Carl suggested that he could perhaps lift the Rebol2 TLS implementation for us and it might be a better choice. Without seeing the code it's hard to tell if we should do that or not.
 
Well, I can state: "HTTPS has been already implemented twice for Rebol". The fact is, though, that both subjects having the code are not able to publish the source now or tomorrow, but they both expressed their will to do it once time permits. I don't think it will take longer than somebody else might need to write yet another version.
 
4:52 PM
@Ladislav You are somewhat close to the issue with Saphirion. Yet on other closed source projects (even Rebol prior to opening), haven't you felt that "once time permits" wasn't a good enough answer for your needs? The more users, and the more enthusiastic they are, the more likely this won't satisfy them.
When one feels that way, one might resist the support or suggestion of that solution. That is all that's happening here. I think you have taken our expressions of frustration about it very personally, which is not the intent.
Because it seems like it doesn't appreciate the work that is done. But these are different things.
How about SPLIT/GROUPS for SPLIT/INTO?
 
5:49 PM
0
A: Is there a function to decode encoded unicode utf-8 string like from a form?

HostileForkLooks to be related to ticket #1986, where it is discussed whether this is a "bug" or the Internet changing out from under its own spec: Have DEHEX convert UTF-8 sequences from browsers as Unicode. If you have specific experience on what has become standard in Chinese, and want to weigh in, tha...

 
 
1 hour later…
7:13 PM
posted on August 20, 2013 by fork

[Comment] As evidenced by the above comments in the example code, /INTO would be a troublesome name that could apply to both scenarios... A name that seems to only apply to the "/INTO" case could be /EVENLY..., although it would have to be explained as "Split into N equally-sized parts as best possible (with at most one non-empty piece of an unequal size to the others)" >> split/evenly [a b c

 
7:36 PM
Still getting HD processing, and YouTube seems to have gone nuts with the color. (What is Red? Skin tone in this video...) But...
 
7:47 PM
@RobertM.Münch @Ladislav @HostileFork thanks for the discussion. i have a lot better understanding of the matter now and also of your personalities.
@Ladislav i also feel sometimes @HostileFork 's interpretations of the facts are sometimes a bit distorted, harsh and provocative, BUT provocative is not bad; it move things forward. Please don't try to interpret those as personal provocations because that's not his intent as he also clearly stated above.
 
@onetom I think the word is pragmatic
 
@Ladislav even if we would agree @HostileFork is doing a little disservice to the community, it's largely outweighed by his positive service.
@AstDerek that's the root of his motive, but on the surface it comes across as "distorted, harsh and provocative" often which is an annoyance sometimes.
 
8:44 PM
@onetom one example of projects that @HostileFork is referring to that are sticking to the open source builds is Rebolbot. Though having https would be an advantage, at present we feel better served in spirit with staying with the community open source edition.
 
@GrahamChiu thx for the example.
@GrahamChiu with the same impetus, can u please remove my @onetom allterego from trello pls; i couldnt reclaim it. leave the @1tom
 
@onetom And so by sticking to the community build we should be in a better position to find the cause of this #9910 tcp bug
@onetom I could only see you on the ReCode board .. not the main one where @HostileFork had already removed you
From what I understand Ladislav is saying that a community implementation of https would take longer than Saphir releasing their code, or merging it into main. But if Carl can release the R2 version, then I think we should just run with that offer until Saphir does merge their code.
 
8:59 PM
ok, i found where i saw @onetom; on the Rebol3 Development _group_ definition. (no direct url for that page, just click on "Rebol3 Development" next to the board name)
Since u were the only Admin user on this group, I though HF cant remove me from here
 
@onetom Ok, done.
 
@GrahamChiu so sad we have to talk so much about this issue. in a plan9 world all these activities would be unnecessary... crypto is built into the OS and transparently available to all user apps... there is still a lot of complexity which has to go away...
@GrahamChiu thx
 
@Ladislav - I have to back-up @HostileFork a bit here. Red was not absolutly in question here, no need to drage it into the discussion. I think Fork just mentioned licence as an general example, of what might happen, if some party is not obliged to release the source. However - I don't think, he accusses Saphirion from anything ...
 
Allow me to ask you a question: what is the core problem with this discussion? I grasp the idea that the community version of rebol doesn't provide ssl/https support, but closed source does?
 
What I actually think he is trying to say is - if there is some closed/sponsored development, e.g. https, and ppl in general are in the need of https, it is absolutly natural, that those ppl will start to ask, if it will be publicly available. The intention is not to eventually use any private work for free, but to know, what, if, and when will be available. I can understand, that for such ppl, claims like - sometimes in the future - are not a good answer to plan their projects ahead ...
So - in such case, any such person has to decide, if he/she is willing to further wait (actually not knowing when the stuff arrives), or if it would be wise to initiate new project - which could lead to reinventing the wheel ....
So - I don't think anyone is questioning Saphirion's intentions, not even Hostilefork :-)
 
9:08 PM
@AstDerek yes, imho
 
I can confirm what @pekr is postulating. When notified that I didn't have easy access to https I naturally had to drop using REBOL altogether and unfortunately I'll have to continue to do so for similar projects until "sometime in the future".
@HostileFork Thanks for posting that video. Is it me or is YouTube just getting worse and worse?
 
@DarrellBrogdon But you were using R2 anyway, so that's not really related to the issue, or is it?
 
we had the same situation with rebol/core and rebol/view. when i made my 1st google sites backup script, i almost dropped rebol, because
a, /core didnt have https and it just took away the elegance to have an stunnel setup just for this
b, /view cannot run without an X11 display, which makes it an even less elegant solution
at the end i've ended up with a curl solution...
 
Stuff like console, CALL, https, ODBC, encryption, etc. are what is making R3 still feel being an alpha, in comparison to R2 ...
5
 
As a php dev, I'm used to ask if curl module is installed/enabled, instead of using php native functions. Isn't that an option in this case?
 
9:13 PM
@earl It may not be related. I thought it was because I asked about https yesterday. Perhaps I incorrectly assumed that my question is what started the debate.
 
@DarrellBrogdon No worries. It's a smouldering topic :)
 
@AstDerek i would say, it's just a bit against the philosophy... basic shit like that should be effortless to use, hence should be part of some of the standard rebol packages
 
@onetom ducktape is part of php devs repertory, so I see it as an attractive option
 
@AstDerek but thats exactly one of the biggest reasons why people announce php as shit, because it's whole community is promoting this duct taping which eventually leads to complexity
 
Folks, let's be perfectly clear about one thing: Saphirion's HTTPS implementation for R3 will be released as open source, it is not being kept closed for competitive advantage. There is no commitment to a definitive timeline, yet.
3
 
9:19 PM
If Saphir are too busy to do the merge, then I believe @HostileFork has offered to do this if the tarball of the sources is made available. That offer has not been taken up.
 
@earl - yes, that is what I said. And that is also what Fork was kind of stating, indirectly, pointing out advantage of things being put in the public Git ...
 
@pekr That's not what Fork stated, which is precisely the point.
There is no question about the if, that's absolutely and totally clear. There is no commitment to the when.
 
@AstDerek it's a better solution if u take away more than u add ;)
 
Agree with @onetom on the php ducktape. I'm grateful for all the food PHP put on my table over the years but I ultimately got to the point where I couldn't stand dealing with all the ducktaped crap I had to deal with. My hope with REBOL was/is that it will encourage best practices and clean code by nature.
 
@earl - it is, no point to argue with me, you can't win :-) You should read between the lines, just read what Graham just said, it just - fits ...
 
9:22 PM
@pekr Feel free to make fit whatever you like :)
 
@DarrellBrogdon i also feel my precious lifetime is wasted by rolling shit ball code back and forth...
 
I just explained why the comment, yet I don't consider using a module as ducktape/shitty coding practice
 
@earl - it is all just useless infights imo. I can see Fork doing more good than bad, so I express my opinion, when someone calls him doing a disservice, and I don't agree with such point of view. Without Fork, we would not be here on SO, and you surely know, how I hate it here :-) I hope all parties continue to do what they do the best, so I better shut up :-)
 
Its not necessarily. Unfortunately in the PHP that module is, often as not, very poorly written. Part of this lies in PHP's popularity. Low learning curve and tons of sample code available. But I've seen far too much code written by people who don't really understand what they're doing beyond just gluing things together. This isn't a phenomenon that is exclusive to PHP mind you. I'm starting to see it in the Javascript community as well.
 
@AstDerek Duct taping is fine for prototyping (I use cURL for Rebol 2 Core as my fallback), but is ultimately sloppy design. If Rebol is to retain one of its core advantages of being cross-platform/self-contained/no-dependency, then these problems need to be solved.
 
9:27 PM
Isn't CURL available even for R3 as an extension? Well, maybe I confuse it with Red ...
... and World ...
 
@pekr Apparently, but I've yet to understand how it works...
 
@DarrellBrogdon I'm not sure Rebol is immune to this, we just don't have a lot of people writing modules. Rebol 3 at least offers a better framework for reusing code.
 
I doubt any language is immune to it but my theory is there are languages that naturally encourage better coding practices be it through language design, by the community, or a little of both. My hope is that REBOL is one of those languages and communities.
 
@pekr As far as I can tell, this doesn't work on OS X (where I do most development).
 
9:32 PM
Bickering about https notwithstanding. ;)
 
not sure, but imo the domain relates to Kaj, maybe we could ask him, how recent his version for R3 is. OTOH, he has Curl binding for Red, and some tool to generate R3 extensions in Red, so maybe some more recent version could be built. I will ask him on Altme ...
 
@pekr Be nice if he'd join us here :)
 
9:46 PM
@rgchris - so, Kaj is not aware about any problems, though the code is over 2 years old. Any particular problem under OS-X?
 
@pekr I find the documentation tricky to follow and doesn't explicitly mention OS X (which makes it a questionable investment of my timeā€”if it does work, shame on my lack of curiousity).
 
I think I read someone tried the curl extension and it didn't work recently... though I had tried it a long time ago when it did load at least.
 
ah, so you haven't even try? :-)
 
@pekr It's difficult to try when it's not clear where to begin, or that it's a working roadmap.
 
Still, if @rebol is offering to release the R2 https sources so that we can move Rebol3 forward, then I'm in agreement with that.
 
9:53 PM
I can understand ... that is why we prefer integrated aproach of R2, instead of constantly looking for some stuff to link to :-)
 
It's going to make it more and more difficult for Saphir to merge their changes though the more we diverge
 
@GrahamChiu - was that stated by Carl, that he would be able to release that R2 part?
 
@pekr So @HostileFork has said. But Carl is here now I see so you could ask him.
 
IIRC, what Cyphre did, was some general crypto stuff, and https was kind of layer upon that, maybe even mezzanine. But maybe it is different stuff than what I talked to him about some time ago ...
 
@pekr No, that's exactly how it's working.
 
9:55 PM
@rebol I have given Andreas some rather lengthy code that does cause this #9910 tcp bug .. and he's hoping to reduce it to find the issue.
 
@earl - then i kind of like it ... so - the question is, if we want such aproach, or we would prefer R2 C code being ported?
@rebol - hello Carl :-) There is some recent discussion about some missing subsystems of R3 in comparison to R2. Namely https. I can of course name other stuff, as e.g. crypto ports, console, odbc, sound, etc. Is there any problem to release the related R2 C code, or was it just stripped from initial R3 implementation, to be added later?
 
@GrahamChiu I'm also still hoping very much for Bolek to have a more straightforward repro.
 
From recent discussions it seems to me, that ppl would welcome especially https ...
 
@pekr I also think the approach Cyphre took is a good one. But ultimately, that decision is up to whoever else wants to implement TLS/HTTPS.
 
@earl I don't suppose the latest community build has your CALL changes?
 
10:06 PM
@pekr last weekend I added github area to put it. Will be uploading it there next chance I get.
3
 
@rgchris Nope; unfortunately not finished, yet.
 
Never mind, all in good time :)
 
10:28 PM
posted on August 20, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] In the core tests suite. (Added Gregg's tests from above comment.)

 
10:47 PM
@rebol yay!
github.com/rebol/projects is the link to that area
 
@earl we have that other code you wrote that does sequential downloads .. but it does require the GUI.
 
11:07 PM
posted on August 20, 2013 by ladislav

Tested in Linux (0.4.4).

posted on August 20, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] Fixed by https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/133

 
11:25 PM
Looking back at all the discussion about saphir, rebol 2, rebol 3 got me thinking about how we can make this clearer for new users - how about a simple rebol timeline diagram like this unix one?
 
That's simple? ;)
 
@DarrellBrogdon Point taken. We have a lot fewer versions than unix which should make it simpler
 
@johnk I have some Unix historical trees printed out and hanging up at Respectech. The first one is one page landscape, and shows how all the families of unix are related on a timeline. The next one expands the Linux branch of that first sheet into a tree moving from left to right, with a different distro on its own line. The distros are in 8-point font with minimal spacing between lines, and the tree is about 5 feet tall. :-O
And it is even missing some distros like Arch Linux for ARM.
The distros are printed in landscape, with the first date on the left around 1991 and the last date on the right at 2013.
 

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