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6:09 PM
I'd like to start learning C++. How should I do that?
 
emulator for what?
what C++ compiler are you going to use?
 
G++.
Z80 emulator, but that shouldn't matter.
 
Hmm, never used G++ except if it was part of building the linux kernel
 
Nope, the Linux kernel doesn't use C++.
I know the compiler well enough, it's mainly the language I'm concerned about.
 
I would really start with breaking the task into smaller pieces and then start with one that seems doable. That allows you to discover what you know and where your knowledge is lacking
 
6:15 PM
OK. I've started with the registers. How do I make one 16-bit register alias 2 8-bit registers in little-endian order, or vice versa?
 
With a struct?
Here I show I have no idea ...
 
For context, let's say we have 2 8-bit registers d and e. de is those two combined in little-endian order.
 
yeah, that would I think be a struct with three fields, DE, D and E.
and then logic to make sure DE is calculated from the value in D and E and to handle the setter the other way around.
I've never build such a thing so I'm struggling design wise and language wise
Maybe useful:
 
6:43 PM
@rene I made a struct/union solution but that wouldn't work for C++.
 
yeah, it smelled as too much of C
You need to nudge Nathan or one of the others that know C++ to join here and give you some directions.
 
C++ doesn't really reach down that far. registers is not something the language concerns itself with.
 
It's not actual registers, just register emulation.
 
Depends on how big the registers need to be
8 bit, we assume is 1 byte
so unsigned char would do
 
16 bits for one register. Each 16-bit register is composed of 2 8-bit registers, each of 1 byte.
I'd like this to be portable, so I'm pretty sure unsigned char won't do, unless C++ defines CHAR_BIT to be 8?
 
6:54 PM
So you'd probably want to check the fixed size types in <cstdint>
A union would work
 
The standard requires CHAR_BIT >= 8
 
Are those non-optional in C++?
 
although type punning this way isn't really legal...
most are optional
 
Yeah, no standard type punning for the most part
 
a char is defined as 1 byte no matter your platform
but 1 byte is not always 8 bits...
I guess a std::bitset could kind of work
 
6:57 PM
I can probably go with int_least8/16_t.
 
Maybe a bitfield struct could work?
 
if you had two uint8_t (not 100% portable, but if you don't care about non 8 bit byte machines, which you shouldn't) then you could combine them into a single variable like uint16_t reg = (hi << 8) | low;
 
Yeah not a bad idea to pack them and then mask
 
I was really aiming not to have to do that. I had a great solution in C with the type-punning union situation.
 
C++ doesn't allow that.
 
7:00 PM
The type-punning union in C is legal, but made UB in C++ :|
 
I know.
 
5 mins ago, by AndyG
but 1 byte is not always 8 bits...
my life is a lie
 
@AndrasDeak: It's rare but there are a few architectures that did it
132
Q: What platforms have something other than 8-bit char?

Craig McQueenEvery now and then, someone on SO points out that char (aka 'byte') isn't necessarily 8 bits. It seems that 8-bit char is almost universal. I would have thought that for mainstream platforms, it is necessary to have an 8-bit char to ensure its viability in the marketplace. Both now and historic...

 
thanks
 
I see lots of code that assumes char = 8 bits
and fortunately it only targets windows or common linux architectures
 
7:04 PM
You could use a bitfeild struct like struct reg_t { uint16_t hi : 8; uint16_t low : 8; }; then set low and high and then reg = ...; uint16_t comb; std::memcpy(&comb, &reg, sizeof(comb));
@AndyG TBF, it covers like 99.99% of the machines running today
 
Doesn't that violate strict aliasing or something?
 
No. memcpy is the legal way to type pun in C++
 
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica: Just double checking, we don't need to worry about padding in such a struct?
 
@AndyG The C (maybe C++) standard states that two (and only two) bitfields are sequential.
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica I bet that I could even make that more portable by using uint_least16_t.
 
The problem with type punning is there is no actual object that is created. When you have float foo = 3.14 and then do int bar = *(int*)&foo there isn't an actual int there. C++ doesn't want you synthesizing objects, so that is illegal. OTOH std::memcpy(&bar, &foo, sizeof(bar)) works because now you are just copying bits from one object to another.
@AndyG With bitfeilds everything is implementation defined. If it was production code I'd use a static_assert(sizeof(reg_t) == 4); to stop compilation if the precondition is not correct.
 
7:13 PM
Can a static_assert be inside a class?
 
@JL2210: They can be made anywhere; just gotta be careful in templated contexts
 
Don't think I'll be making templates any time soon.
 
templates are where the fun is at, at least IMHO
 
I forgot you were a C programmer :-) Templates tend to put that type off
 
7:17 PM
I don't think that there will be anything I need in there for this project. Maybe for ctgmath, but not a Z80 emulator.
Well...
Are *_t types reserved in C++ as well?
 
No, it's just a naming convention.
 
user10957435
I thought beginning names with underscores is reserved in C++ for the implementation.
 
The C++ standard library reserves the following kinds of names:
(1.1) — macros
(1.2) — global names
(1.3) — names with external linkage
 
All names with a leading underscore and followed by an upper case letter are reserved. Any name with __ (double underscore) is also reserved.
 
ach, didn't get it all there
 
7:20 PM
I meant type names that end in _t.
 
what Nathan said
_t is fine
 
foo_t is a valid name.
 
so long as you're not redefining a pre-existing name that has _t
 
the _t conventionally means type
 
Even in typedefs? Yay, what a great improvement!
 
user10957435
7:22 PM
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Here is the list of rules. Yeah, it's beginning with a capital letter after an underscore.
 
user10957435
Rules for underscores, I mean.
 
Identifiers
In addition, some identifiers are reserved for use by C++ implementations and shall not be used otherwise; no
diagnostic is required.
(3.1) — Each identifier that contains a double underscore __ or begins with an underscore followed by an
uppercase letter is reserved to the implementation for any use.
(3.2) — Each identifier that begins with an underscore is reserved to the implementation for use as a name in
the global namespace.
 
Wait, only POSIX reserves _t for additional type names? Darn, I thought I had that covered. Anyway, off-topic, wrong project.
 
user10957435
Looking at this list, "Names that end with _t are reserved" So _t might not be okay. For type names at least, I guess.
 
@Chipster That's under "For example, the POSIX standard reserves a lot of identifiers that are likely to show up in normal code:"
 
user10957435
7:27 PM
Oh, right. My bad.
 
gtg. I'll be back in sometime later this afternoon
 
user10957435
Cya.
 
👋
How do structs in namespaces work? Is it struct namespace::struct_tag (likely) or namespace::struct struct tag (unlikely)?
 
you don't need the struct prefix
e.g.
namespace foo{
struct bar{};}
can create one with foo::bar my_instance;
 
Wow.
 
7:31 PM
I think struct prefix is even old for C :-)
 
Nope, still needed.
Though most programmers use typedef... ugh.
 
yeah sorry I guess I was thinking of C++98
 
Say I'm creating a data type with 4 structs that I don't need to take the size of. Should I use class or struct?
 
user10957435
You're still talking C++, right?
 
Yes, I am. (sorry, thought you said "taking" and not "talking").
 
7:42 PM
There's no difference between class and struct keywords
I prefer struct because things are public by default
 
Wait, what?
 
user10957435
Ah. Okay. What AndyG said.
 
They only imply default visibility
 
user10957435
Actually, technically there is, but AndyG also beat me to it again :D
 
user10957435
The default visibility is the only difference in C++.
 
7:43 PM
struct really only exists in C++ because of its origins in C
 
How does visibility work?
 
like in other languages, C++ has "private" and "protected"
"private" names cannot be accessed outside of the class (and friend functions and classes)
"protected" cannot be accessed outside of class and derived classes
 
user10957435
The C++ committee tries not to break previous code, so they include a lot of things from C only to make legacy code work. That's nice, but it does result in stuff like struct vs class.
 
if you try to access a private name, you get a compiler error
the compiler performs an "access check" for each name you reference to see if it's legal
e.g.,
 
user10957435
public can be accessed from anywhere.
 
7:45 PM
struct foo{
int GetValue(){return value_;}
private:
int value_ = 1;
};
this struct doesn't look like anything you're used to in C
you cannot do the following
foo f;
f.value_ = 2;
By restricting access, we can enforce invariants on classes
 
user10957435
This question has some good info on that.
 
I like to use structs for multiple return values in a function
 
user10957435
It asks about inheritance, but has some good "review" so to speak of the basics.
 
if you do not expose any setters, you can enforce data immutability
But there are other possible invariants you may wish to preserve
e.g., that a persons' "name" always starts with a capital letter
You cannot really do this in C
 
If I do that, will I have to define all of my functions inside the class?
 
7:48 PM
In an object oriented world, yeah
 
user10957435
Not all. Just most everything that handles your data.
 
It's isomorphic to procedural code like you'd write in C
In fact, that's basically how C++ is implemented under the hood
all member functions in C++ are really just like C functions where the first parameter is a pointer to an instance of the class
but C++ saves you the trouble of writing that parameter over and over
 
user10957435
I actually saw C code one time that used structs and function pointers to basically create objects with virtual functions. It was kind of cool, but kind of a mess. But that was partly because I'm not used to looking at C code.
 
Ah. And now we're getting into self. Or is it this?
 
user10957435
this
 
7:50 PM
the keyword is "this"
Python uses "self" as a convention
but it's the same thing
a pointer to an instance that is implicitly passed in
Python gives away it's C heritage by doing that :-)
 
user10957435
this->someMemeber will get something that inside yourself. Though you don't need this technically in most cases. It's just nice to differentiate some times.
 
@AndyG but it's explicit in the signature
 
@AndrasDeak: yes in both C and Python :-)
 
oh, I thought it was implicit in C. To be more precise I didn't know there was OOP in C :)
 
In C:

struct foo{
int a;
};

int foo_get_a(foo* f)
{
return f->a;
}
we've emulated a member function in C
 
7:53 PM
okay, that makes sense
 
user10957435
That's one thing I like about C++. I don't have to normally write things like void myClass::func(myVlass* this) for functions.
 
excuse the improper return value
 
@AndyG That's some odd C you've got going there. Returning int from a void function, who are you?
 
I edited it!
 
OK, pretty much finished up on this. How's it look?
 
7:59 PM
great wall of text!
 
How do you format code here?
 
Post it in an online compiler and link it here
I like Wandbox
but others like Godbolt
or coliru
or ideone
 
user10957435
 
or rextester
 
8:01 PM
Code review time
Man I do enough of these a day already...
haha
#define Z80_REGS_HPP 1
Don't need the 1
 
hmm
What if I want to do #if Z80_REGS_HPP?
eh, OK.
 
#define Z80_REGS_HPP is sufficient
it just defines the symbol
it doesn't need to be defined as any value
 
I like to keep my style consistent between my projects but I'll keep that in mind.
 
user10957435
It's okay to use (sizeof(composite_reg) instead of sizeof(struct composite_reg) in C++. In fact, I think it's usually preferred.
 
Ah, forgot.
 
8:05 PM
yeah otherwise looks alright
 
Formatting?
 
It's whatever you want
Formatting is sane
different guidelines recommend different things
so long as you stay consistent (and you have)
Might want to start adding comments about all the abbreviations for your own sanity down the line
 
This isn't typically how I do it... Usually the opening brackets are on a new line.
 
user10957435
My only other thing is why I'm not used to the identifier:size syntax (I'm assuming that's what that is). I can't confirm that that's correct. But I think that's okay.
 
@Chipster: Like this? std::uint_least16_t high:8
 
user10957435
8:08 PM
Agreed with AndyG, though: definitely start commenting.
 
user10957435
@AndyG Yeah. I think that's okay, but I've never really used it so I don't know for sure.
 
They're bitfields... You've probably never used them.
 
I think I've seen them in production code once
 
They're useful for compactness. Other than that they're a land mine.
 
user10957435
8:11 PM
They sound like it. It seems they're adjusting it in C++20 according to this, but I'm not sure exactly what the adjustment does.
 
One usage I had was for implementing packets
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Hi. Welcome back.
 
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica 👋
Can structs have member functions like classes can?
 
user10957435
Yup. In C++ at least.
 
user10957435
8:14 PM
But C doesn't have classes, so that last part of my statement is silly, I guess.
 
@JL2210: Again there is no difference between class and struct in C++ besides default visibility
 
@JL2210 In C++ a struct is a class, and a class is a struct. The only difference is structs have public as the default access control while classes have private as the default.
 
Yeah... Having a function inside a struct looks really odd...
 
user10957435
Yeah, I'd imagine.
 
you get used to it
 
8:16 PM
That's the C programmer in you. C++ doesn't care. I use structs all the time when I don't want to have to type public:
 
Especially when calling it.
 
I really do advise you pretend you don't know C when learning C++. C is a root of C++, but the languages are different and only get more so as the days go by. Treat learning C++ like you are learning Java. That way you'll see the C++ way to do things.
 
Say I have this snippet. Do I have to type out this-> every time?
struct composite_reg {
    std::uint_least16_t high:8, low:8;
    std::uint_least16_t combined;
    void combine()
    {
        this->combined = this->high << 8 | this->low;
    };
};
 
no self here
 
No. Also C++ uses this, not self
 
user10957435
8:18 PM
There is no self in C++. It's this
 
combined = high << 8 | low
 
Sh*t. Forgot, hang on.
 
user10957435
But no, you don't have to use this
 
user10957435
These things take practice. You'll start remembering it soon.
 
Name lookup in C++ goes from the inner most scope to the outer most scope. Since member functions are scoped to the class the compiler first checks the scope of the function, if the name is not found then it checks the class scope, if the name is not found then it goes to the namespace scope
 
user10957435
8:22 PM
There is a global scope in C++ too, yes?
 
@Chipster yes, ::
 
Technically no. The global area is called the global namespace. There is no space above that so technically the last level is still namespace scope.
 
[basic.scope.namespace]
The outermost declarative region of a translation unit is also a namespace, called the global namespace. A
name declared in the global namespace has global namespace scope (also called global scope).
So yes, but Nathan is also right
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Got you. It is just the highest namespace.
 
user10957435
@AndyG As usual... :D
 
8:25 PM
We need to call C++ the "Internal Conflict Generator".
 
user10957435
@JL2210 Why?
 
There is the ICC compiler
almost works
 
This goes against everything I've learned. It's just so awkward. When people said the two languages were entirely different, I didn't expect this (no pun intended).
 
Often we see people tag questions on StackOverflow as both C and C++, and the first comment is inevitably "which language do you mean, they're two different languages"
This is the easiest mental model for learning them
 
user10957435
@JL2210 lol. I guess if you're used to C, then yes, I guess C++ is a internal conflict generator.
 
8:28 PM
although the C++ standard is officially based off the C standard
 
I wouldn't say it based of the C standard, but it does inherit the C library so it falls back to it for that. AFAIK there isn't any language rules that fall back to the C standard.
 
Even Go with its backwards variable definitions was less against what I know than this.
 
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica:
 
user10957435
It tries to be backwards compatible with C. That's partly why struct is still around.
 
[intro.scope]
C++ is a general purpose programming language based on the C programming language as described in
ISO/IEC 9899:2011 Programming languages — C (hereinafter referred to as the C standard).
 
8:30 PM
@JL2210 Want to make your head really spin? []{}; is a valid statement in C++11+
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Shh! We don't want to scare him with lambdas yet.
 
oh god. Reminds me of that one guy that compiled JavaScript into ![]().
 
lam, llam, lamb, llamas?
 
+[]{}; gives you a function pointer
 
user10957435
@JL2210 If we must scare you...
 
8:54 PM
Do you have to use semicolons after member functions or no?
 
after their declarations yes
after curly braces, no
 
Alright, done with the registers: wandbox.org/permlink/OkUfYkUe67QaPnM8
 
The only time you need a ; after a } is in a lambda expression or a class definition.
 
user10957435
@JL2210 Looks good. But my bit-shifting math is kind of sketchy, so...
 
Wow, I really need to turn my volume down.
 
9:01 PM
@JL2210 Yeah?
@JL2210 Is it too high?
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Do you need one after a namespace block? (Also, don't you mean declaration?)
 
@Chipster: no, namespace foo{}
 
@Chipster No. A declaration of a class is class foo;. class foo {}; is a definition.
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Hmm. I've been using a lot of unnecessary ;s then.
 
9:04 PM
@Chipster: The compiler should warn you about those
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Oh, right. It's a definition of the class, not the functions in the class, yes?
 
-Wall or -Wextra should tell you if you have unneeded ;'s
 
user10957435
@AndyG I'm still using VS2010. So maybe...
 
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica It doesn't.
 
@Chipster Correct. The functions can be defined inline or not, but the functions don't matter for the definition of the class except to have them named.
Bummer
 
9:05 PM
@Chipster: Sorry about your luck.... I only have bad memories about that version
 
So, essentially, use semicolons only where you would in C. Don't use a semicolon after a namespace.
 
user10957435
@AndyG It's okay. It's actually not too bad. Just don't try to use vardic templates or the using something = somethingelse syntax. Also, it doesn't seem to like initializer lists either.
 
C and C++ have the same rules for ;'s
 
user10957435
That makes sense.
 
9:06 PM
That's the main thing; it was a guessing game on which parts of C++11 it supported
Also, I don't think VsVim exists for it so no vim bindings
 
I like C++11 too much to ever give it up
 
Wait, is the one-argument static_assert supported in C++03?
 
Well I'll be: VsVim does exist for it
 
@JL2210 No. static_assert is C++11+
The one argument version was introduced in C++17
 
user10957435
@AndyG Yup. Pretty much The good news it most of it is supported. Usually, if it's not, I won't be able to include the header. That catches most of it except things that are syntactically different.
 
9:09 PM
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica: Yeah but VS 2010 doesn't support static_assert so Chipster can't use it. None of us should use it as a sign of solidarity
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Ii's mostly compliant. My biggest annoyance is the aforementioned missing vardic templates and <thread> header.
 
user10957435
Most everything else I can get around. typedef works almost as good as using.
 
Is there any alternative for namespace scope?
 
user10957435
@AndyG :D
 
@JL2210: Like what? Can you show what you'd like to achieve?
 
9:12 PM
@Chipster I'm not sure why you say it is mostly compliant. Per this it is no where near mostly compliant. It barely qualifies as partially compliant.
 
static_assert(sizeof(composite_reg) == 4); right after the struct composite_reg definition.
 
What about it? You want to move it somewhere else?
 
@JL2210: You can put it pretty much anywhere. Something I like to do is make a unit testing project where my "tests" are sometimes only static asserts
so the "tests" fail when that precondition is violated
 
Uhh, I was hoping for portability. Guess that isn't going to happen. <cstdint> isn't available in C++03.
 
@JL2210 Do you really need C++03 compliance? If this isn't for an existing code base, requiring C++11 isn't really a burden.
 
9:18 PM
<cstdint> is portable. It seems like you lack a more modern compiler for your architecture
 
No, just concerned about @Chipster here.
 
(portable insofar as anyone that implements C++11 will have it)
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Well, I should say it's mostly compliant. Doesn't have multi-threading and atomics and stuff like that. And there are a few language quirks. But I have most of the STL. The other things I can mostly get around, like using, for instance. So I guess I mostly can use it or don't miss it.
 
user10957435
@JL2210 I believe I have cstdint, but I could be wrong. If not, that's what online compilers are for... ;)
 
@Chipster Are you using MSVS 2010 because that's whats required at work?
 
9:20 PM
@Chipster Do you have static_assert too? What about with no second argument?
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica No. I believe that's what was minimally required in school, and it was the only copy I could get my hands on I think. I don't remember if 2015 was available to students through the school at the time. But I did have access to 2010 at home, though the compiler at the lab had 2015 I think.
 
user10957435
@JL2210 Not sure. Haven't really tried to use it.
 
@Chipster Okay. Did you know you can get 2019 for free? Then you'll have C++17 support.
3
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica No. I actually didn't know that. Does it run on Windows 7?
 
9:25 PM
And that day Chipster's whole life changed
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica oooh. I might try it then. Thanks for the tip.
 
user10957435
@AndyG lol.
 
user10957435
9:30 PM
Sanic! (that's what my friend calls him)
 
Did they get rid of the teeth?
 
it's very much out of the uncanny valley
 
Yep, now the main character's name is cinoS.
 
distinct lack of kill-it-with-fire
 
In completely, totally-related news, Wine 4.19 is out: dl.winehq.org/wine/source/4.x/wine-4.19.tar.xz
 
user10957435
9:34 PM
I feel like I just watched the whole movie now.
 
You probably did.
 
user10957435
2GB of ram is pushing it for my very old machine. But could work.
 
user10957435
"up to 210 GB of available space, depending on features installed; typical installations require 20-50 GB of free space." Aand this is why I don't like Microsoft. 210 GB of space for just the installation?
 
It says "up to". The typical installation is 35.
 
@Chipster: Do NOT install all features. You can get away with a lot less than that.
 
user10957435
9:42 PM
Yeah, I also have space problems on this computer. 35GB is nowhere near what I have available. The minimum of 800MB is probably okay though.
 
user10957435
@AndyG Yeah I know. It just till shocks me that Microsoft packages so much stuff that it takes 210GB. That sounds a little crazy to me.
 
Delete some stuff in C:\Windows that you don't need anymore, like System32 (but seriously, don't).
 
user10957435
Hi, @CodyGray
 
user10957435
@JL2210 That's true. I don't need most of that.
 
user10957435
;)
 
9:44 PM
My MSVS folder is 5GB
 
Hey! Was just browsing SOCVR transcript, and noticed some interesting C++ discussion may be taking place here.
On established Windows installations, where you’ve run Windows Update many times, you can often free up GBs of space by running Disk Cleanup with admin privileges to purge update caches.
 
@CodyGray You guessed right! I'm slowly learning C++ <s>based on my knowledge of C</s>.
 
user10957435
In actuality, I know what is taking up most of the space, and want to get it off this machine eventually. But I gave away my backup-drive (I hadn't put anything on it yet) and haven't taken the time to get a new one yet.
 
What is it?
 
@JL2210 That is almost certainly a mistake. Treat them as two separate languages, with only syntax in common.
 
9:47 PM
@CodyGray That's definitely the summary.
 
user10957435
A hundred or so high-def videos. They're like 2GB a piece.
 
@Chipster yeah, best to keep your pr0n collection on a separate device :-p
 
@Chipster wink wink
 
user10957435
Sigh...
 
@JL2210 I love C, but its lack of RAII means I almost never want to use it. Way too much error-handling code bleeds into the implementation, making it ugly and unreadable. More importantly, it is too hard to be certain that you’ve handed all cases.
 
9:49 PM
I keep mine in the cloud... wait... that's just the internet
 
I used to keep my head in the clouds, but now that just means being online...
 
You people...
 
Talkin' about your high-def videos... Can't even get rid of 'em to do some programming...
 
user10957435
I was working on a project filming some teaching videos for high-school students for some one. I still can't get rid of them, they're still my only copy and I'm not done with them yet, but they take up a lot of space.
 
9:52 PM
@Chipster Suuure...
 
user10957435
@JL2210 Nope. Not yet anyway.
 
@Chipster you should definitely backup at least one copy somewhere
 
user10957435
@AndrasDeak Yeah. That's the plan. But I just haven't got to it yet. Once I do all that properly, maybe I won't fight space problems on this machine anymore.
 
you'll feel awful if when that drive crashes...
at least buy a cheap external drive and plug those videos over
 
Do you have an SD Card?
 
user10957435
9:56 PM
@AndrasDeak Yeah, I know.
 
user10957435
@JL2210 No SD card will have the space I need.
 
How large are those files?
oh, hmm... Do you have an old spinning rust drive?
 
user10957435
2GB. But there are lots of them. I'd like to keep them all in one place.
 
@Chipster Not sure how you’ve arrived at that count, but you should be a bit careful when using Windows Explorer to determine the size of system folders. Microsoft uses hard links extensively in the SxS cache and other places, so there won’t actually be multiple copies of the file taking up space on the disk, but Explorer will nevertheless count each link multiple times. So you get vast overestimations for system and update folders.
 
user10957435
@CodyGray I got that number from the documentation for the system requirements. It most certainly won't take that much, but it's just annoying they say it could take "up to" that much.
 
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