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4:33 AM
@HenryEcker Hehe. That actually made me chuckle aloud; nice. But yeah, it seems like abject trolling, if not downright rude, so simply deleting as NAA did not seem appropriate to me, unless I was missing something about how that actually does attempt to answer in a roundabout way, due to my lack of subject-matter expertise.
@NickstandswithUkraine Bible thumper would be more familiar to me. Not sure if that's specifically an Am vs. Br English difference, though, or just a variance in diction.
But yeah, Roe v. Wade reversal is not a "distraction". It's a symptom of a growing rift in American society.
It's something that a certain group of people have been hoping and waiting to do for a very long time. It's also something that almost nobody ever thought would actually happen.
 
@CodyGray Whereas bible thumper I've never heard before
 
Interesting!
 
Although would understand
 
Yeah, dictionary says "informal; North American"
But it also says that "Bible banger" is "US, informal"
I guess because it's only a thing in the US :-)
 
"informal•British" for bible basher
 
4:39 AM
MW defines "Bible banger" as "bible thumper".
 
and some list it as derogatory, while others don't
 
I can't find "Bible basher"?
Ah, nope, yes I can, I just misspelled it. Haha, duh.
 
Yeah, it says that's British.
 
Defines it as bible thumper as well
 
4:40 AM
Every time I point to a Chrome window, it vanishes to the bottom of the Z order. So frustrating.
I don't know why Windows/Chrome has started doing this lately.
But yeah, all the terms mean the same thing. They come from traveling ministers in the early 20th century who would bang/thump/tap on their Bibles while preaching.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine What the heck is G2 Crowd? I've never even heard of that.
 
It's just G2
 
I thought it was G7
 
It's a P2P review site
whatever P2P means in that context
It's a review site :p
 
So like the "review engine" we've been telling people that SO is not since, eh, 2011?
 
It's the glass door for consumer products
As far as I understand it
 
4:48 AM
So... CMs are now deleting comments on MSO that are critical of them.
> Pretty sure they don't test internally at all, just shunt half thought out ideas to the 'community'
Deleted by a CM
> It's glaringly obvious that SE designers never look at their efforts in anything other than the default light mode
 
My respect for a couple of members of staff has been dropping rapidly recently
 
Deleted by the same CM
Ones that you previously had respect for?
Or just those that were unknown quantities?
 
A modicum of respect
Rapidly turning into disrespect
 
There is not a single element on SO that has the color black. Except the vote arrows. [rude comment removed –mod] — Raildex Jun 25 at 18:24
That was also deleted, by a different CM than the one who deleted the other two, previously-quoted comments.
It previously said, "Maybe you should hire actual designers."
I'm giving the CM who deleted it the benefit of the doubt that that sentence is why they deleted it, because it's rude. So, I undeleted it and edited that sentence out. Because otherwise... that comment is 100% correct, near as I can tell.
 
It's funny how before the A/B test started that post had a positive score
 
4:52 AM
Eh, no
It's funny how before Cody featured it that post had a positive score.
 
Cody speaks in the 3rd person, TIL
:p
 
I'm quoting a hypothetical discussion deep in the bowels of SO :-)
 
It was only about 24 hours after it was posted that it went live as an A/B test.
I featured it about an hour after that.
It was already a HMP. It went HMP before the A/B test even went live.
 
So it could be either
 
4:53 AM
@CodyGray That's unacceptable behaviour IMO. I would undelete those comments, and send a message to the CM telling them to directly contact mods if they have an issue with content on the site. I don't see what business CMs have moderating/curating content anyway. They haven't earned the necessary privileges (either via rep, or by being elected) to do that.
 
I figured if it was already a HMP, and the experiment was live, it made sense to feature it.
 
But probably because featured
 
People would be wondering what was up.
 
@cigien He's already undeleted at least one of them
@CodyGray This one, to be specific
 
@cigien You think the specific comments I quoted are totally fine and worth complaining about? I wasn't so sure.
The principle bothers me, but... this doesn't seem like a comfy enough hill.
 
4:55 AM
Yeah, I don't mean the specific comments. It's definitely the principle of it. CMs have no authority in my view, to do things like that. It's fine when mods do it, we elected y'all after all.
 
But if that were what people believed, then CMs shouldn't be given mod powers, right?
 
Yeah, I don't think they should have mod powers, but maybe they need it sometimes to do things like testing, or whatever. What they shouldn't do is stuff like delete comments, or otherwise do mod stuff.
 
Testing??!
Oh, right, you meant testing our patience. Yeah. That's a critical part of the job.
 
Haha. Yeah, I don't know if they actually need mod powers, but I'm assuming good faith.
 
I've seen some of the CMs flag comments for mod attention using custom reasons to ask for deletion.
Although, come to think of it, it was the same CM who deleted these that I've seen do that. And I distinctly recall declining multiple of their flags requesting comment deletion. So maybe they decided that isn't a good path?
 
5:00 AM
Oof, not cool.
 
I don't actually know that's what happened, of course.
 
@cigien "I'm assuming good faith." - Geeez, I lost the patience for that many years ago :p
 
Yeah, I'm getting that sense :) I'm holding out a bit longer ... We'll see.
 
I mean, the thing you have to remember is, the people have changed.
So why would the good faith that I had built up with Shog or Tim apply to people who are not them?
 
I was going to say something about faith in someone being earned... but respect is earned, faith just happens
 
5:03 AM
Yeah
That's true
I have a hard time with faith
Especially in people
 
I haven't been around that long. Shog and Tim were gone by the time I started participating (I think), but by all accounts they were pretty good, and cared about what the community thought. Anyway, like Nick said, the current staff have my assumption of good faith, not my respect.
 
There are... two community-facing staff members that I currently respect.
One of the others recently posted something in the mod room, saying "We got a message from the user <link> regarding these two answers being closed: <links>"
And... well... it's very irritating to me when people mix these terms up, but you just chalk it up to their being unfamiliar with the site.
When staff are unfamiliar with the site? Ugh.
The answers were deleted, because they were nothing but images, and might have been plagiarized.
That that wasn't obvious is another issue...
 
That they're unfamiliar with the site is all the more reason they shouldn't be mucking around deleting comments.
 
Or questioning mod decisions?
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Empty/hollow in the middle.
It's not the worst analogy, I guess, aside from the fact that even filled donuts don't have brains there.
 
Hmm, no. Questioning mod decisions is fine. Not overriding the decisions, of course, just questioning them.
 
5:10 AM
I guess I find questioning obvious things to be annoying.
"Why did you close that door and turn off the light? Are you finished in that room? Are you sure that's a good idea? Is it your goal to save electricity?"
Answer your own stupid question.
 
But there's an easy response to that :p
> "We got a message from the user <link> regarding these two answers being closed: <links>"
- Okay? And?
 
Yeah, but that can't be helped. Tell them to read the help-pages I guess :p
 
@NickstandswithUkraine It went on, I just didn't quote the rest.
Basically, they noted that they saw the user had been suspended for plagiarism, but they weren't clear on how those two specific answers were plagiarism, so they wanted someone to explain it to them so they could explain it to the user.
Stack Overflow: Help Desk Edition.
Literally.
 
> they weren't clear on how those two specific answers were plagiarism
wat
ffs
chat formatting is garbage
 
I mean
 
5:12 AM
imagine that wat wasn't part of the quote
 
It wasn't clear how those two specific messages were plagiarism
Only all the rest were clear plagiarism :-)
Those two were just clearly image-only
The deleting moderator thought they might be plagiarism, given a preponderance of evidence. They hadn't been able to find proof, but searching for images is much harder than searching for text.
 
Ah of course, because having x plagiarised answers and 2 garbage answers excuses the user because the 2 garbage ones weren't plagiarised
 
Later, another moderator pointed out that the images were unlikely to have been plagiarized, and appear to be original work. But that doesn't change the fact that, plagiarized or not, they needed to be deleted because they don't even come close to meeting the minimum standard for an answer.
@NickstandswithUkraine Exactly.
The user found the loophole!
And staff couldn't thread the needle themselves, they needed help from moderators to figure out what to do.
 
I'll just go post a heap of spam but one great post, and I'll get off scot free
 
Nah
Because moderators do the actual work of moderating
So you'll get fire-roasted
It's already happened multiple times today
 
5:16 AM
From what I understand of other site mods it might be possible to get away with it on some sites :p
 
Oh yeah
 
Oh, was this a case where a user reached out to staff directly? In that case, I guess it's important for staff to be able to respond appropriately. Don't they have on-boarding when they join, that covers this kind of thing? At least for the staff responsible for interacting with/responding to users.
 
On other sites, you'll get your answers edited to remove the spam.
@cigien I think they do. I suspect the onboarding is, "always try to make the user feel welcome".
 
Oh. That's not good advice on its own.
 
But, yes, it was; these are pretty much the only cases where staff is going to ask a moderator about a decision.
But it's not infrequent that a user goes to send a message to staff complaining about how their answer was deleted.
 
5:17 AM
Ah, I though the staff member was just curious about the situation.
 
Ugh, recently I got in touch with amazon support and had to be "on hold" (waiting for them to do stuff while in text chat) for about 15 min. Every 2 minutes they sent a "Sorry for the delay", but why?!, I don't care, just tell me when you're done
 
@cigien In their defense, I don't think they actually have time for that.
Although it does mean they don't get a lot of opportunity to learn how moderation and/or the sites work.
 
You don't get good reviews for being overly "welcoming", you get good reviews for doing your job
 
It really depends
There are people who will give good reviews for being "welcoming" and yet not doing their job
And I think a person like this is who has been running the ship at SE for some time now
 
I have actively given bad reviews for it before
 
5:20 AM
But are you a normal person?
 
It's like going to a restaurant and having people ask "How is everything" when you've had your meal arrive 30s ago and have a mouthful of food
Go away I'm trying to eat
 
Haha, yeah
Ugh, the feed in The Meta Room is so depressing.
 
Feels even worse in the states because of the tipping situation
 
Nope, I just know how to click dislike.
 
Yeah, I saw that second ones comments shortly before it was deleted
 
5:24 AM
"Since I happened to be on this site"... Uh?
So that's a reason for just posting your question here, because you happened to be here already?
 
"I was on meta, but I didn't have a question, so I made one"
 
Do these people seriously walk into a museum and expect to order a burger and fries? I mean, I was here already, and I'm hungry, so... what's your deal?
"Instead of clicking dislike, give us a short answer and then just delete the question. So simple."
Instead of complaining that I've attempted to order something that is not served here, just give me my damn food and put up a "Closed" sign. So simple.
 
Your policy should change, we can all see that everyone who visits a museum gets hungry and probably wants to order burgers and fries.
Why is it not your policy to keep your guests happy?
 
Ugh, my ISP is frustrating me greatly
 
5:37 AM
> I know the yellow blocks on the right are annoying and often filled with noise, but sometimes it has something useful mentioned in it. Check your own screenshot.
On a question asking about the upvote button changes. Hilarious!
Comment flag on Meta: "This comment creates a straw man argument, purporting a claim that I never made. It would not pass a fact check, and is a rude behavior to exhibit towards other users."
Um... how many times do you have to say that we don't delete comments because they're wrong and/or you disagree with them??!
 
Ah of course, a "this comment is wrong, rude, spam, evil, against the rules" flag :p, if it won't get deleted for some reasons, just flag it for all of them
 
@CodyGray Uh, I might even know the exact comment that was flagged. Although, through the magic of Meta and flags, I might not and it might be pretty much any other comment.
 
It was recent, so... you might.
@NickstandswithUkraine And yet, not one of the claims/reasons provided was why the comment needed to be deleted.
I guess because the flag button is right under the upvote button, people think that flags are equivalent to downvotes on comments.
I've even seen flags saying something like, "While I'm not sure this needs to be deleted..." Uh, missing the point...
 
If it was recent, then maybe I literally just read it before coming to chat. But I don't think it matters. I was more trying to make a joke about flagging being...not quite good.
@CodyGray I came across a related problem while making a userscript for flagging. It made me reconsider the flag icon. It's really more of a "delete this". My particular problem was that some flags auto-delete a comment but removing it immediately (like default flagging does) makes all the content jump up, which is quite inconvenient when the intention is to make a multi-flagging system. So I'm thinking of a way to tackle this. Maybe change the icon instead if flagging resulted in deletion.
 
I'm having trouble parsing that.
 
5:48 AM
I re-read it and realised I probably need more coffee.
 
Yes, the flag button for comments means, "this needs to be deleted". The flag popup just asks you to give a reason why it needs to be deleted.
You know, like the hypothetical "why are you downvoting this post?" popup.
 
To break it up: yes flagging = deletion. It's either immediate (enough flags, or comment matches a regex) or delayed. But in either case, the intended end result is for the comment to be gone.
I'm trying to do a multi-flagging userscript and immediate deletion results in very annoying experience. So I disabled it but I still need to have a way of signifying that the flag resulted in deletion. Otherwise loading more comment would "surprisingly" remove that comment. Which also looks odd. I'm thinking of maybe having an icon that signifies "flag resulted in deletion". Which is also odd because that's what flags really do.
 
6:11 AM
Y'know. On a lot of github projects there is a "stale" bot that comments if nobody has dealt with an unanswered issue for X days (usually 30-90). In the overwhelming majority of cases, nobody answers and the issue is closed. WHy can't SO do the same thing? There are probably a million questions posted by people who will never visit the site that are just taking up space....
 
Is taking up space a crime?
 
On a site where you're looking for answers to questions and there are questions with no answers, and comments requesting clarification that have gone unanswered? I might say yes. Participate in any burnination and you'll see a lot of this.
It's like hanging up on tech support.
You don't get your answer solved.
You go to the circular file.
and space costs money. With the money saved from storing these useless questions they could give swag to the mods.
they could also save money by not redesigning the voting buttons.
 
Exactly.
I actually have "DenverCoder9" memorized.
I should change my SO alias to that
 
I don't see any reason for cleaning them up, effort would be involved, they don't cause problems for other people and space is cheap
 
6:18 AM
Effort = programming a bot.
Which is fun.
Programming bots to take over the world is fun.
 
I'd rather they spent development time on useful things..... not that they're doing that now
 
Like changing the voting buttons? :)
 
Maybe they could make it so we could flag reviewers from the review queues, that'd be nice
 
bah.
So you want to focus attention on looking at the tiny fraction of people trying to make a dent, and dissuade them from helping?
 
Yes#
Because they're trying to make a dent while actively causing harm
 
6:23 AM
Bullshit when "approving an edit that doesn't fix all the problems in a post" is considered harm.
I have stopped reviewing suggested edits thanks to efforts like yours.
 
Good riddance
 
And people are complaining that suggested edit queue is full.
and it's your fault
so shit isn't being edited at all
 
Maybe if people didn't approve shit people wouldn't suggest shit
 
the site is worse because of editnazis
sorry, I think any improvement, no matter how slight, is progress.
I appreciate the goal of perfection in every edit
but as an open source maintainer for nearly a decade and a nonprofit volunteer coordinator, I've learned that the harder you make things, the less you get.
is an unedited site better than frational, small, but not complete edits? I think so.
You disagree. And you would flag me for approving 3 fixes when there should have been 5.
and suspend my privileges
 
I fail to see how that's my fault anyway, I don't reject all the edits, I skip all the edits, I might have 9000 rejections, but I've got 40,000 skips. Why approve the good when there's a wave of idiots behind me that'll approve everything they see. The people I want to be able to flag are the ones approving plagiarism, approving actively harmful edits, etc. not the schmucks that approve edits that fail to remove thanks while massively improving the rest of the post
 
6:28 AM
and the fact that that is more important to you than spending your own time editing makes me question your priorities
 
 
2 hours later…
8:07 AM
Unhelpful comment flag of the day: "Marked duplicate and also downvoted though my question has a differnt objective"
(spoilers: they're wrong about the downvote)
 
As in, there isn't a downvote?
 
8:31 AM
@VLAZ No, they guessed the user wrong.
 
Ah. Yeah, that's normal. But I don't know how many wrong guesses also come with a flag.
 
9:30 AM
@DanielWiddis For the record, I'd never penalize a reviewer for that, as one of the two mods who currently issues the most review suspensions.
With exceptions for stuff like "fixed a single typo and ignored the fact that half the code was unformatted"
"it would have been better if you had also done X" vs. "because you failed to fix X, which you could and should have done, the post is still in an unusable state, and your edit serves primarily to block a useful edit from being made until it is approved."
My standard is that you must make a meaningful improvement, even if it's small or there's more you could have done. A bit of refining polish on an otherwise perfect post counts. Capitalizing the "i"s in an unreadable train wreck does not.
@DanielWiddis that said, flagging bad reviewers is useful...a lot of them are making reviews that are actively harmful to site content (approving edits that make the posts worse, voting to delete actual answers in LQA...). Of course, it would also be nice if moderators could warn instead of issuing a suspension for everything...
Here's a great example of an edit that should be rejected despite fixing one problem: stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/31977693
(wouldn't be enough to suspend a reviewer on its own, but I might consider tossing it in if there were other wrong-er ones)
 
 
3 hours later…
12:54 PM
Imo, there's a difference between fixing everything and fixing everything
3/5 fixes ain't bad, but if the question is trash and the edit doesn't recover it, it's a waste of all our time
but like Ryan said, there's degrees to this as well; you can capitalize all is, but neglect code formatting, and that's a problem, especially if formatting is outright broken
But the other way around isn't as bad in comparison
Speaking for myself, I tend not to suspend reviewers over it unless I also detect other bad patterns while investigating -- something there often is
bad edits on bad questions that attract approvals tend to be an indicator of a bad reviewer. Not always, but often, and that's something that's revealed when investigating other reviews
Nick's approach (that I've mostly stolen because it's brilliant) is helping robo-reviewers target known-good edits by rejecting all the trash ones before they have a chance to review them
It's an imperfect solution to a garbage review system with a lot of garbage reviewers and garbage editors
Where the garbage company that makes this garbage neglects it and adds another garbage queue that's just first questions with extra steps
Now, because you brought up my area of expertise, allow me (well, no, you don't have a choice) to properly destroy your entire argument:
@DanielWiddis it often is, because a lot of those edits are on low-quality posts that get closed and eventually deleted, never to be seen by the public again. That's a waste of the editor's time, and the reviewer's time. As mentioned in the above block by me and Ryan, there's also degrees to this
Speaking for myself, I find it extremely hard to make an after-the-fact judgement call on incomplete edits, because there's a point on both sides; yes, edits should be complete, but in some cases, there's minimal to edit and going after the reviewers is typically not worth it, and going after the editors is correct, but impractical to do because there's a ton of them and one of me
but rejecting edits on garbage posts where the edits don't do something extremely important? That's constructive, and here's why:
1. as Nick said, it nudges editors away from editing trash, which means fewer edits there, leading to the second point;
2. Any reduction to edits on unrecoverable posts opens up the queue to more edits on actually good posts
That's where the bulk of the problem, and mod flags, stem from
People spend so much time editing trash that often gets closed and deleted, that it fills up the entire suggested edits queue and prevents edits to good content that's going to be on the site for a long time
The point being, editing garbage wastes reviewer time, as well as editor time, on something that could've been spent editing higher quality posts that has meta problems (grammar, formatting, noise, etc), but where the content is otherwise good
@DanielWiddis yes, because editors fill it up with trash, and reviewers encourage it by approving bad edits on bad questions
@DanielWiddis Not Nick's fault, and projecting all the problems with suggested edits on one reviewer isn't particularly nice, to be honest. We have a perpetual reviewer shortage; wasting approvals on bad edits on bad questions doesn't help with that. You seem to be forgetting that we have a standard to maintain as well; reviews necessarily have to be good as well, and robo reviewers don't make this easy
@DanielWiddis No, shit is being edited, and that's the problem. The queue is full because we don't have enough reviewers, a lot of those reviewers approve trash, and approving trash edits signals those edits are fine, which fills the queue with more shit
It's a circle, really, and I can't be arsed to graph it:
bad edit suggested
bad edit approved
more bad edits suggested
not enough room for good edits on good posts
If you don't see the problem with wasting reviews on bad edits that essentially is an actually slippery slope down the lane of "more trash suggested" meaning less good edits on good posts, I can't make you either; but it's an actual problem regardless of whether you agree or not
@DanielWiddis That's unnecessarily harsh
@DanielWiddis Yes, it's progress, but when it's reviewed, it has to be more significant than what a 2k user might do. That's incidentally why there's a 6 char limit, in case you forgot -- when it's reviewed, it's expected to be good enough to warrant taking volunteer time to review, now, onto the next point...
@DanielWiddis while we do want exhaustive edits, it can't be denied that it's not always possible. We all miss stuff, and in the case of new users, it's a whole educational process. I'm once again going to compare to wikipedia; user talk pages are incredibly useful, and I'm somewhat upset we don't have it here
Essentially, if I notice you do an incomplete edit, I can message you (in public, as well) to comment on the edit, and suggest further improvements, or point out things that shouldn't have been edited, including pointing out how both british and american english are fine and shouldn't be edited to be the other
We don't get that luxury in the case of incomplete edits, though, which once again leads us back to the spectrum; how bad is it that some parts were missed?
That's what it really boils down to. In some cases, such as missing some uncapitalized is when fixing severely broken formatting, the value is abundantly clear. If it's the other way around, its lack of value, especially when reviewers have to spend time on it, and the post can't be edited while it's pending, makes it a clear rejection candidate
You need to start interpreting "no improvement" as what it really is; a relative term. It doesn't mean absolutely nothing was improved, but that in the grand scheme of things, it's a pointless edit and a waste of time
@DanielWiddis yeah, and both editing and reviewing, as well as other moderation has a ton of complexity to it. That's not our problem to solve, though; if you want change, you have to ask SE
Or post on twitter, really; they seem way more responsive when they're trending negatively on social media than when they're being bashed on meta
@DanielWiddis the thing about this is that it still takes reviewers. We want as complete edits as possible to conserve resources
One exhaustive edit, followed by potentially one correctional edit, is a hell of a lot less resource-intensive than four edits doing trivial stuff; not to forget that it's a lot less time-consuming, given that we don't exactly have a queue small enough to constantly have someone ready to review whatever comes in
@DanielWiddis For 3/5 improvements? No. For consistently approving severely lacking edits or edits on unrecoverable posts? That's more likely, but still not a guarantee, because I'm nice and it's hard to justify edge-cases without a comprehensive history, and I'd rather not annoy CMs more than I already have (and plan to if a certain tag bug isn't fixed)
@DanielWiddis Nick prioritizes reviews; and that's fine. Someone has to
If you don't see the value in that, then you don't have to prioritize reviews
No one is forcing you anyway (hopefully). If you don't want to do reviews, don't. It's that simple. But projecting everything wrong with suggested edits on Nick, one of the few people on the site who actually gives a shit about reviews really grinds my gears. If you don't like reviews, then don't do them. If you have a problem with the system, post feature requests on meta (if they're good, I'll happily status-review them). If you don't like the policies around reviews, don't do reviews.
 
1:56 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine And if you're not suspending for it and I'm not suspending for it...probably no one's getting suspended for it.
 
Yeah, no one else is really paying attention
 
Okay, I may live to regret telling people to red-flag those sock-ring posts:
 
 
1 hour later…
2:59 PM
this is a very good library that only takes 1000 lines of code to do a 2 line of code task. thank you, you are definitely not wasting your breath and your life making this. — oren revenge yesterday
 
 
1 hour later…
4:08 PM
Hello, guys :)
 
4:33 PM
My apologies to @NickstandswithUkraine for my comments last night, and thanks @RyanM and @ZoestandswithUkraine for your replies.
 
Things can get heated when 2 people are passionate about similar things but in totally different ways, no offence taken. Apologies for saying good riddance for you not reviewing anymore, your tone was annoying me and I took it out on you.
 
Thanks. I'm sure I deserved it.
 
/shrug, I don't hold grudges
People are allowed to disagree
 
No. We must have uniformity! And I'll argue that point to the.... uh.. Right.
 
4:49 PM
@RyanM What, Moq?!
I mean, one one hand, I myself tend to recommend people don't use libraries for the same of using libraries.
But I just realised I have an entirely different stance on testing libraries. Because, yes, you can avoid many of them for simple tasks, however, that doesn't scale.
Once you have tests, it should be easy to add more. And a mocking library saves SO MUCH TIME with this. It's definitely of benefit to have a unit testing, assertion, and mocking functionality ready to go. You shouldn't be creating these by hand if you can help it.
If you have to invent your tools to use them, you'd quickly lose interest in making more tools to use them. Which is a major drawback for tests. It should be as easy as possible to add more. Ideal case would be to be able to produce a test or two while drinking your coffee. Then you would be inclined to do that. Then you wouldn't fall behind on testing.
/rant
 
5:14 PM
there's a very easy way to never fall behind on testing
 
5:40 PM
@KevinB outsource it to meta?
 
just don't test
 
Which...is kind of the current thing at my company. I keep bringing it up and I keep being shot down with "but we don't have time to write tests". I brought it up again today. We were one hour in, three of us trying to figure out why something doesn't work. I mentioned we need more automated tests again, got the usual "but takes time" and I pointed out that we've currently spent three man hours on this. Had we spent three hours writing automated tests, we might have caught the problem earlier
 
i'm the only dev here. i added testing to a single project, and it was a success... but then the project was never revisited and the testing was never used outside of the initial release
which... is how most of our projects go
our.. my
lol
iunno. It was nice having it, but when you have a backlog of dozens of projects at any given time,
 
@VLAZ Yeah, I tried writing something complicated without writing tests as I went... once.
 
It's also quite amusing. Last sprint we ran out of work quite early. At the retrospective we talked about this and I brought up, yet again, that we need a backlog of technical tasks, so if we have time, we can pick those up. To which my boss went with "But we need to confirm this with the product owner and plan accordingly". I had to point out again that we literally had nothing to do. Had we a backlog, it wouldn't have been an issue.
 
5:48 PM
of course, i'm also primarily writing coldfusion... which doesn't exactly have a big community to draw inspiration from
 
It went horribly, because any time I tried to make a large change, I would break something, and then lose hours debugging it. As soon as I started adding tests, fixing those bugs took a tiny fraction of the time.
 
iunno. i feel like by specifying what my methods return, and the code enforcing that rigidness, i avoid a lot of those kinds of problems
this method always returns a string, this one always returns a struct with at minimum these properties, etc
 
Oh, I write in a strongly-typed language.
This was just complex logic with a bunch of tricky rules.
 
with that one project, it was javascript/angularjs (old angular), wasn't strongly typed, most of the tests more or less did what it being strongly typed would have done
now days everything is dart or typescript, if it isn't coldfusion
coldfusion isn't strongly typed, but you can still specify what methods should return
 
@RyanM My first project at the company was to take over a legacy system and also essentially change half the API it used. In short, it communicated with a backend which supplied all the data, the one I maintained would act as a layer for the frontend. Convert the data to known DTOs and use them for display. I added a test for each and every API call. I can run the tests and pinpoint what, if anything, doesn't work on the backend. Even if it's a black box for me.
And that happened a lot. I get a report that something on the frontend doesn't work, and it might just be the backend passing faulty data or just an error.
 
5:54 PM
now i have to wait 30 min for this app to build
whoa, that was quick
 
Quick 30 minutes.
Or the build just failed.
 
it looks successful,
 
I remember one time I left a full build to run and went to get a coffee. It should have taken maybe 10-15 minutes with tests and stuff. I come back in about that much time only to find out it finished in 30 seconds (so, just as I left my desk) because it failed early for a stupid error.
 
well, i rebooted the pc over lunch, was still booting wen i returned
but it's a bit faster now
I need to get a new one
tis way past time to go complain and get a replacement
 
"Hi, I need an alienware PC. It's crucial for my job. Send it to my house, please."
 
6:09 PM
heh
if i don't specify specs i'll just get what i have
very few other people in the company actually need more than browsing capability
 
"Alientware - the most expensive they have is the only thing that can, uh, flubbox the development kit SDK."
 
Today in "reasons for copying content without attribution":
@AbhishekDutt so what? this is the right answer! — reza derikvand 11 hours ago
 
6:44 PM
@RyanM can't argue with that, undelete ASAP /s
 
 
1 hour later…
7:58 PM
Who is here?
A lot of moderators
Oleg has gone
Only a political topic could awaken him
 
 
1 hour later…
9:02 PM
NAA of the day: "up up i have the same issues up up i have the same issues up up i have the same issues"
...by someone who could have upvoted the question
...but didn't.
 
they might be exercising
 
9:32 PM
 

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