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07:46
@flawr WTF is that? “We were bored during the lockdown, so experimented with cats.” :D
07:57
I am a bit worried though about the lack of anonymization. I'm sure the cats didn't even sign a consent form. So from a privacy standpoint this is a horrible example
08:26
@CrisLuengo I now did make a small comparison
I did expect it to be the other way around
 
2 hours later…
10:29
I know this is not the appropriate forum, but I will advertise anyway! A colleague and me are organizing a 3D-CBCT reconstruction challenge, focused in machine learning reconstruction methods, but not restricted to those, in one of the biggest signal processing conferences out there. If you know anyone that could be interested in joining, please do forward it to them! More info here: sites.google.com/view/icassp2024-spgc-3dcbct/home
@flawr I thought this was related to the cats and I really had a hard time following for a bit
 
3 hours later…
13:48
@AnderBiguri Wonderful! Best of luck!
@flawr so the 1/max method breaks down when you don’t sample the max properly (it’s too narrow). Makes sense! Do you normalize the amplitude first?
@flawr Another method is to look at the second order normalized central moment. Look on Wikipedia under “image moments”.
That one is very precise, but more involved.
@CrisLuengo yes, I think I wanted to avoid dealing with coordinates:)
but maybe I can add it to the comparison
@CrisLuengo how do you mean to normalize the amplitude?
@flawr I guess instead of 1/max you’d do sum/max or something. Basically make it invariant to scaling of intensities, because you might not know if the Gaussian is properly scaled. Image intensities tend to be “arbitrary units”, and so I’m used to not depending on their absolute value, I typically only look at relative intensities.
In your application this might not be relevant, I don’t know.
ah yes, here I divided through the integral over the domain limited to the image
14:03
I was wondering if the normalization could be the cause for the method breaking down so badly for small sizes.
it seems to start to break down at sigma ~ 10^-1, which is about the resolution of the grid
(here the distributions are centered around 0, with x,y in the range -10, 10, with 200 points
so roughly a spacing of 10^-1
honestly I'm surprized that it does still work that well at that scale:)
When sigma=1 pixel, you start to get more important aliasing. You lose 1% power there. It gets much worse for smaller sigma.
right!
also I guess at that ponit it is very susceptible to sub pixel translations (i.e. whether the center of the distribution lands on a sampling point or in between)
Is 0 always on a pixel? If you add a random shift, the max method has yet another source of error at smaller scales: the max is not sampled, so your estimate is off. I guess the FWHM will also be affected, but by then it’s too small to measure the W anyway.
I think it is, I'd have to check again, but anyway, I was already happy that the 1/max worked so well, and that I could do it ina single line of code
14:10
Yeah, it really is a simple method.
@AnderBiguri just checked the registration page, but it just displays a google error:)
It’ll break down hard with a bit of noise, but you might not have any in your application. I still don’t know how you’re using it! :)
I just discard data with noise. The method never failed the rest of the data.
No I'm kidding, it was really just for roughly estimating some width and making some nice plots:)
if it was +-10% in the ballpark it was already ok, and it didn't even have noise
@AnderBiguri I’m guessing it’s artificial data if you have a ground truth reconstruction? Is MSE the right thing to measure? It doesn’t distinguish a reconstruction with a bit of noise from one that reconstructs things perfectly except it doesn’t show the tumor or whatever anomaly. Which could totally happen with a DL network reproducing it’s training data.
Which leads me to think: how is ML applied in CT reconstruction? Is it projections in, reconstruction out? Or do they use it as part of the backpropagation algorithm?
Funny, my phone autocompleted “backpropagation”, then underscored it with angry red to indicate it doesn’t know the word.
Also “it’s training data” typo is because of my phone. It keeps adding an apostrophe where it has no business to do so.
> Dear Cris,
>
> We invite you to apply for the recently opened role–Editor In Chief (EIC) of IEEE Annals of the History of Computing magazine!
@CrisLuengo I recently read about a method where you use a neural network as a prior: In my (very limited) understanding with many methods you basically try to solve an inverse problem: Given the final image, you have a method to compute the projectons. Now you try to optimize the image to match its computed projections with the data. Now in this method instead of a nxm array, they used the output of a neural network as the "image", and they optimized the network weights instead of the pixels.
14:23
Hahahaha! Not only is it a stupid amount of (presumably) unpaid or poorly paid work, but what do I know of the history of computing? Are they telling me I’m old???
waves furiously with slide rule
@flawr huh?! People have already registered!
ah do you maybe need to have a google account?
Yes you may yes
@CrisLuengo "ground truth" is high dose CT scans. Is MSE the roght thing? No, absolutely no, but what is? Indeed, in my last talk, and in a paper that I am writting, we discuss the misuse of image quality metrics in ML quality assurance, as indeed, some higher SSIM/image quality result smay eat up tumours etc. But we gotta chose something
@flawr interesting, thanks!
14:26
@CrisLuengo ha, good question, how many weeks you have?
@AnderBiguri :D
In short: various ways. You can just post-process the recon, but there are many other ways, where you can e.g. replace a regularizer in a optimization problem by a NN, or even have something called "unrolled networks", where you mix and match your operators (forward/backporjjection) with CNNs
Interestingly, the best performing ones are not Unet post processing, but indeed these "physics informed NNs" where you have a forward/backprojector as essential part of the network. e.g. Learned Primal Dual algorithm, one of the most famous ones in the field.
But, eveyone does 2D tomo, because it gets freaking big. This is the reason we proposed a CBCT challenge, because the best algorithms are almost impossible to run for anything bigger than a 2D slice, but the real world problems that need better algorithms are the 3D ones.
I don’t like the idea of using CNNs to “denoise” or to “deconvolve” medical images. Because of the hallucinations and so on. So I’d be hesitant if they’re used for reconstruction in an end-to-end black box method. So it’s nice to see them being used in other ways that, hopefully, make more sense.
Yeah, my Cambridge's groups vive is exactly that sentence
a lot of people are working in e.g. trying to prove convergence of NN models for medical images, so you can know what the algorithms is doing in the mathematical sense
That’s good to hear!
14:34
my boss, Carola Bibiane-Schonlieb is one of the top people pushing for that
@CrisLuengo also really nice, but are they calling you old old man?
14:56
@AnderBiguri That is my best interpretation of that email. “You were there, you know the history like no one else!”
You where there when the first NAND gate was built, we need you!
you were there when the first iron 0 and 1 were forged
15:36
I probably was around for the more interesting part of the history though. I played on the very first home game console ever produced (it could do pong!)
It certainly has been less interesting in the last 10 or so years.
 
4 hours later…
19:31
@flawr I prefer the bottom right subfigure
@AnderBiguri nice
@CrisLuengo just wait until 100 TB drives become common in households and video games can finally take off
20:09
@AndrasDeak--СлаваУкраїні "This game only takes 3 days to download."

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