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9:33 AM
I quit watching it when he said how much he hated Matlab. Not that Matlab is the best programming language, granted, but I don't think it is objectively that bad
 
I think there is a ridiculous hatred towards it, but I think its mostly software devs saying "MATLAB bad"
yeah, I get why, but its not a software dev tool
 
It was already very weird when in 1:15 there's a list of "Types of research software": Julia, Numpy, ... and no Matlab. Seriously?!
@AnderBiguri I think that's the key. It's for scientific computation rather than for software development
 
yup. Feel free to do e.g. your resesearch with c++
same results, x10 the time
 
Hehe
Exactly
 
@LuisMendo he's talking about software development so it kind of makes sense
 
9:46 AM
@LuisMendo It is obviously heavily coloured by his own expericence and environment, but I still think he makes some good points (independent of the technology) about the issue of software in science. Especially what he said about funding, and quality/review issues.
 
The generic hating not, but blaming it for poor software design yes
 
MATLAB <3
 
Just like with academia you can write good code with matlab, but not because of it but in spite of it. That's his stance I think.
 
10:18 AM
@AndrasDeak I have seen horrendous python code too
 
@AnderBiguri of course.
People writing bad code will write bad code. The question is how likely it is that people not going out of their way to learn writing good code will not write bad code. His point seems to be that MATLAB makes writing bad code more likely.
I can't really form an educated opinion on that myself, because 1. I never used MATLAB for serious development, and 2. I never saw other people's serious MATLAB code
 
@AndrasDeak But the slide title was "Types of research software". Leaving Matlab out of that list is bad faith, in my opinion. He may like Matlab or not, but it has to be on that list
 
As anecdata, MATLAB's "one file per function" model (which might or might not still be relevant) would make me indeed want to write monolithic code rather than more structured code
@LuisMendo yeah, I think that's fair. I didn't notice that when I watched it
 
@flawr Yes, it's just that part I didn't like. I'm sure he makes some good points
@AndrasDeak I agree. Matlab is not so much about good software design
@AndrasDeak Exactly my approach (most of the time) :-P Of course, I know it's bad software dev practice
 
Whereas in python you can put functions literally anywhere. Not that it has to be about MATLAB vs python (although the way he explains, it is)
 
11:02 AM
I work in a project where we have 3 or 4 full time RSEs
they are good, and its great to have someone focusing fully on that
not sure if the code is the best (code maybe yes, but docs etc is still in academic level quality, i.e. shite)
 
at least with good code there's less spaghetti
 
to be fair, without docs, there is no code
so I dont necesarily agree
Some of the tools I use are fully undocumented, meaning there are tons of features that are simply hidden
i.e. they do not exist, unless you dig the guts, but if you need to dig the guts, then what use is the software
 
@AnderBiguri you don't agree that with good code there's less spaghetti? :P
 
Yes, but I don't agree that is a good thing. Without docs, I don't care if its spagetti or not
 
Well it certainly isn't a bad thing :D
 
11:09 AM
no, no, just not necesarily good. I preffer well commented spagetti than thousands of lines undocumented
 
Well yeah, it doesn't matter how the code is structured if the high-level API is obvious to use
 
but if its undocumetned you don't know which functions you have access to
 
yes, that's what I meant
 
ah yes
I mean, I am using a super advanced tool of 25 years of development by the world experts on PET imaging. And in the last year, I have gotten 4 references of people using TIGRE for PET imaging, which is very very very worrying
the tool at UCL is very advanced and does very good modelling of very important PET processes. TIGRE does not, yet people use TIGRE. Why? the high level API is easy
 
With old labs you also run the risk of there being many-enough users, so they think people can pick up the know-how from each other, or hold workshops to teach the code hands-on
 
11:17 AM
I have been strugglinh a lot with my research because of that
50% of what I learned its just on peoples heads
 
And don't forget that when the code is research then there's natural pushback against wanting others to actually use your code
 
But, in this case, I am gong to say that my PI respects a lot research code, as he published this PET open source tool over 25 yeas ago, he always pushed for it
 
nice
 
I think their problem is
1) they are too good/CS. ~"oh yeah, people will use these command line interfaces and compile all this with CMAKE" . No, people don't know what a command line interface is, much less compile with CMAKE.
2)The code is too old and big to refactor. They are working hard to fix this, yet it took me over a week to learn how to build it.
3)RSE people are each of them too excited about research to sit down 3 montsh and document
very good intentions, but not catalizing properly I think
 
@AnderBiguri I see...
 
11:21 AM
and 4) its all random contribs from people. I just indented a 7 for-loop in C++
the horror
 
you'd think that in 25 years there's enough feedback to at least have straightforward installation steps
 
I think with these tools is you either have the people who naturally know how to use it and the people who dont bother using them
 
@AnderBiguri nice
 
like vim, for example. If you use vim, you are a vim user, you will always be, its the way you use computers. Otherwise you just don't and once you use it 5 minutes you ban it from your life.
 
11:40 AM
This doesn't imply that you have to assume that everyone else will use it too. One also has to consider those who live suboptimal lives.
 
no, ofcourse not, but vim is different context. RS should be approachable
 

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