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19:00
Nope, never encountered Modula-2 either
It was a long time ago
think early days of Pascal
TurboC
Three little words that would have prevented me from getting a headache today:

SOFTWARE CONFIGURATION MANAGEMENT.
'little' words
Configuration Management... such an ugly subject
(nodding)
19:02
prevented you from getting a headache? Those things cause meltdowns
about as 'little' as my current headache.
@Darek - I like Pascal :) But wiki says that Modula-2 was from the late 70s and I was only born in the early 80s
That shows how old I am
Also, fuck Struts.
I ran into it around 1980
There was one more: Ada
19:03
@RyanTernier I particularly like how 'configuration management' often means 'solution will either crash or silently swallow messages unless config file nobody knows about is supplied'
Struts's motto is "configuration over convention".
I think it was called that
@TomW Funny!
Speaking of Ada, did you know the first computer programmer was a woman? So ironic.
The inventor of the compiler also was, I believe
@johan - ask and you shall receive :P updated to be on the right
19:04
Really?
technically she was...although there weren't actually any computers that could run her programs
Yeah, she worked on one of Babbage's computers.
Oh, and Alan Turing was gay.
@TravisJ better imo
@Kendall - Common knowledge
@Johan - Cool :) Any other thoughts?
19:07
I didn't know it for a long time.
Does that make me uncommon?
Or does it make your knowledge uncommon? :P
But if you don't trust the future then continue with that force.
@TravisJ minor issue with typography, maybe try to use fewer fonts have same font and color for bald and headings. Might be cleaner
All the fonts should be Verdana
What do you do when you can't understand a piece of code that you need to understand?
It's just too bit to fit in my brain.
19:11
change it and see what goes wrong
@KendallFrey Google it
Run it in linqpad
do a barrel roll
@ShotgunNinja Google what?
break it up into subproblems
19:12
@KendallFrey the code I don't understand.
You expect me to expect my code to be on the internet, along with an explanation of what it does?
user142019
I heard there was an Erlang question here? /cc @JohanLarsson
user142019
I was taking a shower, sorry.
user142019
@Darek I know Erlang.
You should be sorry. Who told you to shower anyway? ;)
user142019
19:16
@Darek Oh, I see your question in the Functional Programming room. Hold on.
What if you googled the code and it returned a result hyperlinking to file://c:/development/myproject....
I would probably cry like a two-year-old wanting candy.
@JohanLarsson was that not evident?
@jcolebrand guess so but sounded interesting enough for a post here
@JohanLarsson it is interesting, but it was basically simple
Given a List<SomeClass> where SomeClass has a property that is List<Foo> FooList that has properties including Name, find all SomeClass where FooList matches or encapsulates a given TestList that is just a string[].
basically it collapsed to this:
foreach(var someClass in SomeClassList) { var someList = someClass.FooList.Select(x => x.Name); if(String.Join(",",someList.Intersect(testList)).OrderBy(x=>x).ToString().ToLowerInvariant() == String.Join(",",someList.OrderBy(x=>x)).ToString().ToLowerInvariant()) { /* do the things */ } }
19:29
list.Where(x=>TestList.Except(x.FooList.Select(y=>y.Name)).Any())
@MikeF really? That'll compare the two lists and find only the ones that match?
I haven't convinced myself this is correct yet, but something like that should be feasible
Ensuring that I only have the elements that are a subset of testList and are also the elements of someList, where testList may have more elements than someList, but someList will be completely contained in testList?
I'm all for a faster solution, but for me this was enough
"Except....Any" should behave as "is subset of"
Should I toss it up on SO? CodeReview?
19:31
I don't think so.
I'm all for "is there a better way to do this" but I don't think any of the SE really encourage that, per-se
But I obviously have a working solution
He had some mass of nested for loops and we originally attacked it with a dictionary of bools until I was like "this is too complicated, let's whiteboard it"
I don't like the smell of that code with the orderby and string joining.
OH, what if one of the strings has a comma?
@MikeF orderby is to make it alphabetical, and string joining is because it's the fastest way I know to compare two arrays
@MikeF and?
That absolutely won't impact anything. Let me demonstrate with a brief example (this'll take a moment to type up)
string joining is terrible for comparing arrays
@MikeF I'm all for a way to show that two IEnumerable are equivalent. Doing a .Equals() returned false.
19:36
Enumerable.SequenceEqual
^ assuming sorted I think
I would consider adding a helper method that compares two lists for equality regardless of order.
List 1: var a = new string[]{"I'm the king", "I'm the queen", "Hi, my name is"};
List 2: var b = new string[]{"I'm the king", "I'm the queen"};
String 1: var s = String.Join(",", b.OrderBy(x=>x)).ToString().ToLowerInvariant();
// s = "i'm the king,i'm the queen"
String 2: var t = String.Join(",", a.OrderBy(x=>x)).ToString().ToLowerInvariant();
// t = "Hi, my name is,i'm the king,i'm the queen"
// t != s
(since I don't think .NET has a good built in one yet)
@MikeF and how would you write that internally?
19:38
HashSet has SetEquals
So, lemme check MSDN on SequenceEqual
@jcolebrand SequenceEqual depends on sequence of elements
@MikeF so I'll call it as someList.OrderBy(x=>x).SequenceEqual(testList.OrderBy(x=>x)) or whatever
I haven't finished reading, is it supposed to be: Enumerable.SequenceEqual(someList.OrderBy(x=>x), testList.OrderBy(x=>x))
whichever, however, I mean sorting is easy
btw, one of my points earlier on commas was what if you had the lists {"a,b","c"} and {"a", "b,c"}
The lists aren't equal, but "a,b,c"=="a,b,c"
It's for the naive compare
@MikeF I know the lists aren't equal, I was demonstrating why it didn't matter that it had commas in it. I'm not going to be splitting.
19:43
@jcolebrand check out [HastSet](/msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb359438.aspx) might be ideal for this
lol fail edit x4
@MikeF Oh, I see your point on that, and if one has that, I don't care ;-)
That may actually make it better in the future. :p I can say "combined validation can be done with a comma in the field" :p
If I were in QA I'd test for shit like that.
And make developers mad
So, that ends up looking kinda funky when I convert it to linq chains, but it's clean and intentful on what it does
@MikeF I would call it a feature in this particular case :p
room topic changed to C#: We talk about C#. When we aren't making jokes about Java. More info at csharpchat.com [.net] [asp.net] [asp.net-mvc] [c#] [entity-framework] [linq] [visual-studio] [wcf] [wpf]
That implies that there's something good about Java
i.e. that it's funny, even as the butt of a joke
19:57
Hello friends. I'm newbie for C# and i have a little project. I'm stucked somewhere. I explained it here (with sample source codes) : paste.ubuntu.com/5677762 can you give me an idea?
Do you understand what a constructor does?
it will be executed once (when form class called from Program.cs file)
Invalidating or refreshing doesn't call the constructor again. The constructor is called exactly once when the form is created, and invalidating doesn't create a new form
@TomW even moreso, does he understand how SO works?
That Q would've been fine as a SO Q
At least it was structured an answerable
20:02
@MikeF @KendallFrey I still feel like this should've been asked on SO or something and earned moar reps
Yeah, it'd be a good question if it was on SO
@TravisJ fair enough, but let's not answer a pastebin post, let's answer it on SO
Yeah, there is enough there to make it a SO question
so yeah @Eray, do that.
Actually i have really limited time , because of this i asked it from here (i thought i'll get answers more quickly) . But you're right about asking on SO
20:03
@Eray - Can you turn your comment here into a question on stackoverflow, and then paste the link to the questioin here in chat?
This way others can be helped who may misunderstand about refreshing a form and not hitting the constructor
ok. Just give me a few seconds please. I'm creating a question.
OK, well - you've expected it to do something it isn't going to do. Put the logic for changing stuff in another method and call that from the constructor AND from the event handlers
sure
^^^^^^^^ that
Will i get downvotes for this quesstion, because of duplicated question? :D
20:04
@Eray Looks like a college assignment. Limited time means you waited till the last minute. That's the great thing about failing grades in college, you learn to quit putting stuff off.
Did you find a duplicate?
@Eray probably, but that just means that you didn't search first :p
That would be faster than an answer here really. Because the whole ordeal would have been complete and ready to go.
It is still ok to ask in chat imo
@jcolebrand actually it's my university homework :)
20:09
but maybe higher quality answers on SO main
@Eray that would be what I said
And i find a few another questions on SO but i'm not sure it's same problems. Because i have tried their accepted answers but it's not solve my problem.
@Eray then state that in your question, with the links, and ask away
but we're telling you: take all that code in the constructor, put it in another function, and call the new function from the constructor.
exactly, you therefore have a different problem
I'm sending question now.
20:10
@Steve!
How are ya!
Uncle Bob wasn't there ... :(
You'd better accept my answer :P
lol
wrong steve
oh, it is Steve not Steven
sorry
Anyone knows Erlang around here?
20:12
♪ Hey, Steve. ☺ ♡
@Eray why not label.Text = "You just pushed YES button"; in clickhandler for yesbutton?
You don't seem to understand the constructor.
It runs once, when you do new Whatever()
If you want to run code after that, you need to put it in a method.
zing, too slow
:P
I've already said that and posted it against the question :P
20:14
???
What?
@KendallFrey, i put whole codes to a function . Now should i call it on my constructor and click events ? Two times? Or i missunderstand you?
@TomW I hijacked your answer because this conversation is boring. We should really talk to @Eray when class is done.
@Eray That's the simplest way to solve your problem.
Thanks...that did make me double-take somewhat
20:16
@JohanLarsson actually it's just a sample scenario. At real scenario, i'm doing some calculations etc. :) So i can not type this for every click event
@Eray come back after class and give us an hour and we'll explain why that's the solution, because you obviously need an explanation.
@Eray we do ;-) sometimes.
@Eray Toms update is nice
@KendallFrey it should be like this? paste.ubuntu.com/5677826
@Eray go turn in the assignment like that, then come back and we'll explain why that's a bad idea.
If you don't have time, as you originally said, to learn.
@Eray Yep. Read all the answers on your question.
20:22
Actually my story really dramatic :D our professor just learnt us to putting objects from toolbox to our form design. And i coded this :paste.ubuntu.com/5677846 I mean, i learnt everything by myself. This is what our professor wanting :) but tomorrow i should give my homework. It's a little GPS navigation system :)
I have made a Mac OS resource fork reader in the last couple of days and tried it on an application called TomeViewer that was made by Apple somewhere before last decade
@Eray oh god no, not toolbox ... I hate toolbox
there are "CODE" resources that make it look like some sort of dark prophecy
a "GPS navigation system" as homework?
And you're only doing the toolbox designer stuff now? I think part of your story is missing, sir.
with resources named "ArchAngelOfTribulation", "PrinceOfWails", "theAcidQueen", "TheVillageIdiot" and a couple more
20:24
@zneak Ahhh, coding leftover from DOOM and DukeNukem fueled nights
(oh yeah, PrinceOfDarkness)
@jcolebrand :) Now it's working great. There are 5 city's and a lot's of connection ways between citys. Every connection ways have traffic lights. Some of them have 5, some of them 10 . You are choosing your destination city and this program calculation which route will be best for you based, total kilometers and traffic lights :)
Where does the GPS come in?
Great, now i have 3 great answers for accepting :D @TomW out proffessor calling it as GPS :D
No it's Car Computter
sorry it's my mistake hahah
(I'm not sure, it's really car computer in English :)
@Eray This typo warms my heart.
@Eray Yeah, it's supposed to be computer.
20:29
Believe my my coding skills better than my English hahah :P
OMG
not "believe my" it's "believe me"
It's a fairly common occurrence on here, though they're never that far apart from one another...
i think, i should sleep
Probably.
@Eray just go with computter or ask zneak for a name
@JohanLarsson with*
;D
20:30
:D
Grammar Nazi, awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
@Darek hey hey hey, I'm stressed. lol.
VB.NET makes me hate life
That is correct.
Because VB.NET is terrible.
yes, it is.
20:32
@Steve I'm high on chocolate heyheyheyheyheyheyheyhey!
This is not an opinion; this is verifiable fact, with statistics to support the claim.
Why we have two vb.net courses at my university, i'll never understand
@ShotgunNinja don't say that. It's all MSIL at the end of the day
@Steve Replace them with C# courses.
@KendallFrey LMFAO
20:33
@Steve because you don't understand MSIL
Ir @rlemon were here he would console you by saying "It could be worse" and linking you to the REBEL page.
@jcolebrand Yes, but at the beginning of the day, it's far more verbose, far less common, and far more tedious.
You're right, because I don't know what MSIL is, microsoft intermediate language?
@ShotgunNinja it's only far more verbose if you make it verbose.
@jcolebrand is it not better wit an MSIL course then?
20:33
at my old employer we used to have a certain PM who insisted on VB instead of C#
@Steve you need to learn about ILSpy
@Steve Use ildasm and you will see.
justification: "The modellers will understand it better"
@JohanLarsson I wish Unis would teach an MSIL course or two
@KendallFrey did i guess right then? lol
20:34
@TomW that's a good reason
fkn h key is jammed on other keyboard it did double h what are the odds of that?
yepyepyepyep
woooo
@JohanLarsson hhhhhate it whhen thhhhat hhhhhhappens.
i almost drop kicked my computer yesterday, and it wasn't because of vb, it was because i didn't understand what I was doing with .net
20:35
i) the modellers aren't meant to be writing code ii) they're tards if they can't work out the translation
i databound a dataset table field to a textbox, cleared the textbox, then refreshed the dataset, and the textbox was still cleared, even when i moved the window position in the ds
@TomW so what does that say about you if you can't write in VB when you already know C# and the translation?
We've hit the technological singularity. How do I know? Because this giant mess of spaghetti code can be interpreted by the computer, but I'm hopeless.
I wrote a senior project in VB.NET because I had been working in VB.NET for a company, so it was just simpler because my environment was already configured that way (similar reason to "so the modellers understand it" but because we were developing custom code for a 3rd party at the tune of $10k for about 200 lines of code)
it makes Tom a sound man for preferring the better language
20:37
Guy who was team lead got the code and flipped his shit "I can't read this!!!"
Oh, discussion time.
when I debugged and looked at the data table, it had all the data I want, but its like it unbound when I manually cleared a textbox, but it wouldn't let me re-bind either
So I flipped it all to C#, and he was all "thank you, I couldn't read that" so I showed him how they were identical.
Can you explain the fundamental difference between a user and a programmer in regards to their interactions with a computer?
So ... moral of the story: Learn to code in as many languages you can, especially when they all run on the same runtime.
@KendallFrey yes. A user is someone who doesn't want to change how things work to get results. A programmer is someone paid to change how things work to get results.
20:39
Ergo, everybody that gets paid is a programmer.
@KendallFrey only if they get paid to change how the computer works to get results
Everybody that uses a computer interacts with it with the intent to change the internal state and to change future output.
It doesn't matter if they create a word document or a C# application. All they're doing is moving bytes around.
@KendallFrey bullshit. You're not changing the statemachine by moving bytes
Speaking of VB.Net, apparently my problem earlier today was my TFS Build process xaml got borked and had the wrong Type attribute on an assignment node.
Yes you are.
20:42
that would be how things work. The internal statemachine
The contents of a computer's hard drive are part of its state.
I can refuel my car and drive it without disassembling the engine
@KendallFrey that's funny, that's not how I learned about computers
"I'll code the ones, you code the zeros, then right before the deadline we'll merge them together"
2
@jcolebrand I can write in VB. I spent over three years doing so 100% of the time for a living. I just prefer not to.
If the hard drive was not part of the state, every time you boot up the same thing would happen.
You could not change the operating system, because it's on the disk.
You could not save files.
20:44
@KendallFrey you're assuming a word doc is a turing-complete language, if you assume the doc is part of the program
there's such a thing as separation of code from data
Hell, even the program binaries are split in such a fashion
@TomW now that is a horse of a different color
Are you saying that a programming language has to be turing-complete?
"I choose not to write VB" is not the same as "I can't write VB" nor "VB is inferior"
I can write VB with constant googling
@KendallFrey I'm saying that the program should be like the tape of a truing machine, but that the output is not part of the tape.
To borrow a phrase, "It's just CLR"
20:45
All you're doing when you write and compile a program is creating files on disk.
It's like C#, only uglier
@KendallFrey and compile
When you run it, you get different results depending on what is in the file.
That's a funny "extra step"
VBA and VBScript, god knows.
20:46
Just like a word doc.
I'm going to ask my mom to compile her word docs this weekend, just for fun
How many compiler errors do you think she's gonna get?
I've hacked VB6 for some ancient legacy app
Speaking of which, what's the command for compiling word docs again?
worst work I've ever done
So a word document is 'compiled' from text on screen to a binary file on disk.
20:46
ctrl + s was it?
I used to have a "Calvin Peeing on Visual Basic .NET logo" sticker on my car, but it accidentally came off after an ice storm :(
@KendallFrey that's the most "Hi, I'm 14 and just learning to code" answer I've ever heard.
@MikeF I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to be peering.
@jcolebrand My point is, there's no fundamental difference between conventional programmers and conventional users.
this chat just EXPLODED
Someone must've been stroking it.
20:48
@KendallFrey my point is you're so fucking wrong it's not even funny. My mother is a conventional user. She is in no way armed to program.
She doesn't have the capacity to program, even tho she could be taught the tools
Kendall just loves to get stuck on semantics. Don't mind him.
My paternal grandmother was a programmer
She's not armed to write C#, true.
@zneak it would be different if there was semantics to get stuck on
But you need to define 'program'
20:49
in that she loaded punch cards
I said "change how the computer does things to get results" not "saves data to a disk"
@KendallFrey you're the one that asked the loaded question in a few words
So it's your fault that you've gotten a shitty answer
Now define 'how the computer does things'
"Ram" is the little disk that spins to power the computer. It RAMS a little needle that makes the internet come on. If you get a bigger ram it protects you from viruses.
I would define it as the layout of the CPU.
but to say that saving a word document is programming is like saying I've fed you if I take a duece in your mouth
20:50
Programming does not change that.
@KendallFrey whoa, you frequently relayout the CPU? Can you teach me how you do that?
typing in web addresses is programming IMO
you have to follow a syntax!
20:51
If you want to get it back to basics, consider what the people who built Colossus or Z3 or ENIAC would consider to be a 'program', what they'd consider 'data' and what they wouldn't have a word for
@Steve It is, because the computer will respond to your actions based on what you have entered.
:)
i wasn't being sarcastic
I know.
programming is defining a means of interacting with inputted information by the user...interacting with programs is not programming
@TomW they changed how the computer worked for money ;-)
20:52
The means of interacting is all predefined by hardware.
@KendallFrey you're really chasing turing machine at it's most basic aren't you?
No, not at all.
@jcolebrand I'm thinking he's more after von Neumann architecture, stored-program electronic digital computer
I'm split between getting involved and leaving
if we're getting finicky about taxonomy
20:53
Get involved!
a program is a set of instructions that are executed automatically
@TomW Yeah. Otherwise the split is clear.
@TomW he refuted Von Neumann as a viable architecture (and thanks, I couldn't remember the name of that to save my life)
@zneak Define 'instruction' and 'execute'
no, I won't
20:54
I asked, he refuted. he said "the data is the code."
lol
because that would put arbitrary limits to what a programming language is
If I play a board game, that does not mean I wrote the rules of how the game is understood to play
Python doesn't execute the same as C and both are programming languages
one of the points of the von Neumann architecture is that it distinguishes places to store data and places to store instructions, IIRC
20:55
@RobertPetz If I write a C# program, that does not mean I wrote the rules of how it should be compiled or run.
@TomW Other way around.
on an early machine, data was part of the program because there was nowhere else to keep it
It still is.
no, but if I write a c# program that means that I write the rules of how the program handles inputs
just because you don't want to make a difference between data sections and code sections
the user is just something that utilizes the tools we write
20:56
(not that you can't embed data in instruction streams, but that's a horrible, horrible thing to do)
that depends if you program functionly or imperatively
@RobertPetz No, because the operating system is in control of that. You can't control inputs until they reach your program.
I expect most CS grads would look at this conversation and cry
I look at most CS Grads and cry
@KendallFrey now THAT is arguing semantics
20:57
@KendallFrey No, because the hardware has control before the OS.
And the elctrical company has control before hardware
i guess kendalls point is we use a high level language, which has all of its internal workings abstracted away, to write a program thats even higher level, which internal workings are abstracted away, so its just on a spectrum of how high level you want to go before the average user can user it
@RobertPetz So a programmer makes the Word doc, and a user reads it?
How can you even compare a written document and a program?
no, because a Word document is not a program
20:58
Quite well, thank you.
@KendallFrey not true. We invented the Von Neumann so that went away
I can write a book on how to do something, but that doesn't mean I'm a programmer
The term Von Neumann architecture, also known as the Von Neumann model or the Princeton architecture, derives from a 1945 computer architecture description by the mathematician and early computer scientist John von Neumann and others, First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC The meaning of the term has evolved to mean a stored-program computer in which an instruction fetch and a data operation cannot occur at the same time because they share a common bus. This is referred to as the Von Neumann bottleneck and often limits the performance of the system. The design of a Von Neumann architectu...
@zneak Sure it is. It's a set of instructions on what to present to the user.
> Development of the stored-program concept
We changed from the previous paradigm with this

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