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7:00 PM
acting like idiots completely normally
 
that's unfair
what about jicama
 
The occasional donut
 
@Failsafe At least i gave the reason to talk
 
@juanvan just looked up my magic stats, they're not bad
Overall record: 205-149-14
Win percentage ignoring draws: 57.909605
Win percentage including draws: 55.706522
 
That is better then mine
 
7:01 PM
my legacy record is my only losing record :( lol
 
where do you find it?
 
my standard and sealed is really good
Standard:
Overall record: 72-35-4
Total number of matches: 111
Win percentage ignoring draws: 67.289720
Win percentage including draws: 64.864865
 
why win% including draw is smaller than win% excluding draw
 
Sealed:
Overall record: 26-13-1
Total number of matches: 40
Win percentage ignoring draws: 66.666667
Win percentage including draws: 65.000000
@tweray cause a draw is not a win
 
i mean, smaller
 
user47589
7:02 PM
i think it means wins / (all games) vs wins / (all games excluding draws)
 
user47589
if you exclude draws, the second denominator will be smaller, so the ratio will be bigger
 
oh... ok
 
user47589
but.....it isn't clear.
 
it's simple
72 / (72 + 35 + 4) vs. 72 / (72 + 35)
 
user47589
you have numbers bigger than 4 in there.
 
user47589
7:05 PM
are those numbers in octal?
 
my understand was:
Win percentage ignoring draws: when draws counts as lose
Win percentage including draws: when draws count as win
 
@Codeman there a link to search for that?
 
here's my record
Overall record: 1-0-0
Total number of matches: 1
Win percentage ignoring draws: 100.000000
Win percentage including draws: 100.000000
 
7:09 PM
Big surprises coming
 
is it possible to change my web.config connectionString via an MSBuild Argument?
 
holy shit
sql server on linux
where the fuck did that come from
 
you can add a web transformation @FrankVisaggio
 
@Failsafe I suspect Microsoft
 
7:11 PM
... You asked
 
That tv
 
here's my record
Overall record: 0-0-0
Total number of matches: 0
Win percentage ignoring draws: Program Throws DivedByZeroException "Stop fucking divide by zero" Stacktrace: At somestupidCalculator.cs 627 At someCrazyManager.cs At someDumbcontroller.cs At TheDbPasswordIs42.cs
 
reminds me of smile.jpg
 
@scheien Doesn't matter. Has dog.
 
@RoelvanUden: true.
 
@juanvan is a web transformation the best way if i am running my builds in VSTS aka visual studio team services in the cloud?
thanks
 
no clue on VS-Online
 
is that some new MMO?
 
user47589
that dog is a vampire wolf
 
user47589
look at its eyes
 
user47589
7:15 PM
they glow with evil
 
@tweray Yeah. In VS-Online you fight the evil forces of business, wielding nothing but code and a witty mind. Prepare for waves and waves of business demands to attack you, while you and your friends collaborate to fight them off in epic Git-powered collaboration. Coming soon to your PC.
 
Vampire wolf and not werewolf?
 
user47589
could be a vampire werewolf
 
@RoelvanUden pfft. sounds like another lame starcraft clone
 
OMG
C# is now bigger than C++ chatroom QQ
 
user47589
7:17 PM
i would totally play that MMO
 
user47589
are... are you calling us fat?
 
@Amy I think many of us play that MMO every day...
 
wait, what?
 
@Amy No, just, um... well-endowed...
 
user47589
lol
 
7:18 PM
@juanvan planeswalkerpoints.com and go to the xamleeg thing to calculate it
 
Anyways should I try C# now? Is it cross-platform and mature enough to support working with C, C++, Python, R, and external C/C++ libraries? Oh, and also support a nice web framework as well as passing around graphics as an object.
 
user47589
i dunno about R....
 
do C# if you are starting off, do C++ if you want a challenge and you dont mind garbage collecting
 
@Adan I've done C++ already
 
Is that because you'd have to collect C++ out of the trash? Hey-oh!
 
7:20 PM
ZING!
BAZOOPLE
 
Wow you guys really don't like C++
 
C++ doesn't like me
 
user47589
I prefer C to C++
 
It's really Java that we hate
 
user47589
I prefer C# to C to C++
 
7:21 PM
Well, what does C# have to offer vs. Java and Python?
 
I prefer Lisp to C
 
@VermillionAzure It's in the process of becoming cross platform. It's about as mature as your granny. It can work with C/C++ and external C/C++ libraries, but it generally not recommended. Python and R don't integrate very well. It has amazing web frameworks, probably the best of any language, and sure it supports graphics as objects. Any more questions? ;-)
 
user47589
C# has better panini than java
 
@RoelvanUden So, you mean too mature to be a sexy cougar anymore?
 
Java is good as coffee
 
7:21 PM
love C++ like a Router loves ACL
 
user47589
C# also has better support for ponies.
 
java worst oop
 
python is a cool snake
 
They all pale in comparison to JicamaJS
 
java is abysmal
 
7:21 PM
@RoelvanUden I would argue that Python and R can integrate fine fine.
 
i started with java and went straight to C#, much better
 
@VermillionAzure Jup. It went way passed that sexy cougar stage into the 'hot granny' stage.
@VermillionAzure If you glue it together with C, sure, but hey, we don't like writing C.
 
@RoelvanUden No, there's packages that support that out there already
e.g. Rython or whatever
 
I'll be damned.
 
@RoelvanUden You can't do straight x86 in c# though
if you do that a lot
 
7:22 PM
C# does it all again.
 
oh... my record is actually better than it looks
 
well wait can you
 
apparently somebody else has been using my DCI at a store I judged an event at like 2 hours away
 
i kind of just made that up don't take that seriously
 
You can, sort of, by going through C @Failsafe.
 
7:22 PM
Well, all I'm asking is: can C# bind with Python in a good manner?
 
@Codeman my DCI does not work
 
and if I can use Python I can use R.
 
@VermillionAzure IronPython
 
@RoelvanUden interesting
 
@VermillionAzure IronPython migh be up your alley.
 
user47589
7:23 PM
You can use IronPython
 
@VermillionAzure - What do you mean by "bind"?
 
@TravisJ As in, expose C# functions to Python
e.g. binding Lua to C means exposing C to Lua.
 
Is there an R# or was that just a rumor?
 
Ah, the literal version of the word.
 
Please don't expose us to your python
 
7:24 PM
@mikeTheLiar Well, they did buy an R implementation
 
I am not aware of any large scale implementations that do that.
 
@mikeTheLiar Resharper is called R#
 
user47589
last time a python bound to me, it took six people to get it off
 
@VermillionAzure Glueing together languages is just not done all that well in C# without some kind of interop or glue code. Probably in C. Using Lua involves a C wrapper, too. It works fine, but it's not quite as straight forward as using C. The whole charm of C# is not doing any of that crap though. C# is much more powerful than any of those yucky languages ;-)
 
@Amy - That's not what I heard.
 
user47589
7:25 PM
what did you hear?
 
pics or it didnt happen
 
Last time I exposed my Python I couldn't go within 500 feet of an elementary school.
 
@RoelvanUden So is Java, though. What makes C# more attractive as a language?
 
I shouldn't repeat it here.
@VermillionAzure - Is there any reason you want to use C# with python?
 
@VermillionAzure A good example of how bad interop is is the Excel interop library
 
7:25 PM
@TravisJ I'm making a scientific workflow application for work
Lastly, we used R+Shiny, a web framework
 
@VermillionAzure Features, mainly. You don't feel quite as stuck in 1985. From simple things like automatic properties to the incredibly powerful LINQ (to databases, to OData, etc).
 
It's very very young; they just created modules for it in R
 
ah, research
 
What makes c# more attractive? It runs very fast. It has the best feature support. This is the c# room and disagreeing is bad for your health.
 
for ppl used to matlab, R is definitely easier to deal with
 
user47589
7:26 PM
very bad.
 
@TravisJ My feature support is a bit more high level
 
And libraries. From ASP.NET MVC and EntityFramework to whatever you prefer. The libraries out there are incredible for C#. Everything Java can do, C# can do better. And I'm not just saying that because I'm biased. :-)
 
You don't want anything to.... happen
 
Like I said, I want to be able to support graphics as a first-class object
 
Unless you want a panini in your asshole you're going to agree that C# is the best
 
7:27 PM
Dynamic typing might also be useful
 
user47589
You can google the answers to these questions, you know.
 
Graphics is a front end endeavor.
 
@Amy Why Google when you have the community to talk to?
 
You would want to use JavaScript for graphics.
 
user47589
we had a riveting panini conversation
 
7:27 PM
I strongly advice against using dynamic typing in C#.. and on that note, in the C# room you'd most likely find people biased towards C# anyway. Ask in Java and they'll praise Java all the way to heaven. It's mostly dependent on your needs.
 
@Amy boom roasted
 
@TravisJ Passing around the data as an encapsulated object would be quite helpful for me, especially if I want to reproduce the same graphics and adjust it in different places
 
@VermillionAzure - Are you familiar with Michael Bostock?
 
@VermillionAzure we're all a bunch of useless bloody loonies in here
 
ok, actual record...
Overall record: 201-142-14
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.600583
Win percentage including draws: 56.302521
 
7:28 PM
@TravisJ No. Oh, cool, D3.
 
@VermillionAzure - bl.ocks.org
Yeah, he is the author
 
@TravisJ I'm aware of D3, but we want scientific plots and stuff...
TBH graphics, for me, means ggplot or matlibplot
 
ok... so... it's not about 3d modeling
 
@tweray Absolutely not.
 
d3 can reproduce basically any graphic you will find built in to matlab or R's stats
 
7:29 PM
It's about producing different kinds of graphs. 3D is a nice thing to have but yeah.
 
then... how about just use matlab, i mean srsly
 
@tweray cuz then he'd have to use matlab
 
it's designed to do plotting
 
@tweray It's not free.
Plus, Matlab is bad with integration with web dev, I'd imagine
 
plotting is the easiest form of graphing
 
7:30 PM
Interop with other languages is probably not that bad.
@TravisJ It's not simple plots, though. Heatmaps, clustering maps, density plot, etc.
 
imo, plotting has nothing to do with computer concept of graphic
 
So a heat map is going to be a 3d representation
 
@VermillionAzure I guarantee there are libraries for that somewhere
 
@Failsafe It's just, how would the entire system end up looking?
 
you have a x,y,z,t which is going to be color based positioning
 
7:31 PM
Right now, I code the front-end, back-end, and logic all in R.
 
is this a web page or a client application
 
@Failsafe Preferably a web-based client and server application.
Right now, the model is that the client runs R or a server runs R and then you go to the port and IP.
 
R doesn't pair well with the web
 
@TravisJ Nuh uh.
 
@VermillionAzure that sounds awful
 
@VermillionAzure here is a free JS chart api
 
@mikeTheLiar It works quite well, actually.
 
If you say so. Better you than me at any rate
 
if you are doing web you should know that 99% of your graphics are going to be in javascript/jquery/something
 
god forgive what i am going to do
how about use telerik graph
 
7:33 PM
@Failsafe These are for scientists, not web dev people.
In other words, their graphs should translate to the front end.
There should be as little front-end in JS as possible, only a framework to support assembling it.
 
you want to build the graphics in the back end?
 
user47589
why
 
what is this
 
Because it's already all done.
 
user47589
@misha130 this is sparta
 
7:34 PM
R and Python have entire libraries dedicated to just creating graphs and such.
 
o-oh ok
 
all done? um... so you are sending the graph png or something to browser?
 
yea but they arent meant for their gui
 
@misha130 It's the mine is bigger and better than yours discussion.
 
as much as their cpu power
 
7:34 PM
@tweray My idea is that you send an object that can support a reactive interfface.
 
lol
 
user47589
@scheien thats accurate
 
That's the way it works in R+Shiny.
 
@VermillionAzure you know that browser don't understand what the heck is interface do you?
 
Vermillion why not just code in Qt webkit?
its C++ and its on web
 
7:35 PM
unless.... flash? silverlight?
 
@misha130 Our clients cannot support creating their own interfaces in C#.
It's Python or R.
R has already figured out an interesting system for it using Bootstrap and Node.js
 
I never used a web framework with R
 
Python, I'm not sure. But if C# can host everything and the back-end, that'd be nice.
 
just used it for ML
 
ML is an amusing topic
 
7:36 PM
Its a "I amma kill myself for I am not a data scientist" topic
sort of like that
 
tell me it's not the first ML come into my mind
 
ML is really good at reproducing patterns
 
The question is: Is there a front-end library for C# that can support turning data into an interface for HTML+JS?
 
user47589
it's the first ML to come into your mind
 
Front end library for c#
I can't
 
7:37 PM
well, that make R... pretty attracting
 
user47589
yes, of course there is
 
As in, I should be able to generate HTML+JS code directly from functions in C#.
 
that's what many of us code for a living
 
Such that it's compatible with a front-end framework.
 
The problem I have found with employing ML to solve problems is that it can at times reproduce something which was flat when there is supposed to be expansion.
 
7:38 PM
MVC.net running on a server
or wait, you want to generate JS code, not just json data?
 
yes
You can generate JS with c#, but not if you don't know what to generate.
 
well, most well known language can generate html+js, it is just about how easy it is
 
Response.Write("alert('hello world!')");
 
Solving complex problems requires knowledge in every facet of them. If you want to work on the web, you must know JavaScript.
 
The problem is that R's Shiny framework currently supports generation of UI from the front-end and back-end.
 
7:40 PM
I looked at those examples.
 
jsil.org hackishly ports C# into javascript
 
They look like webforms from the 90's.
 
C# doesnt work like shiny
 
used to generate this online demo version of a C# game playescapegoat.com
 
@TravisJ That's fine. It just needs to be functional and transparent enough and also extensible through the form of widgets.
 
7:41 PM
Yeah good luck with that.
If you aren't reproducing one of those template cookie cutters then you are going to have large issues front end.
 
webform... good luck, you will need it
 
@TravisJ It works for them...
 
It works for the marketing team.
 
Just use shiny mate
 
@misha130 It
 
7:41 PM
Show me it working in real world.
 
If you want to try it, here's a genomics pipeline in R+Shiny.
It's not extremely well-made, but it works.
 
While that is a link to a webpage, github is most certainly not run from Shiny.
 
Of course not. You clone, install R, and run it.
It's the client + server in one already.
 
@VermillionAzure whoever keeps committing with the message "commit" needs to be shot
 
That project requires a lot of setup to run locally. I am not seeing a real world example of a successful web implementation.
 
7:43 PM
in my experience, science-related code usually sucks
 
It is client+server only in name.
 
@MikeAsdf Not untrue. But we're targeting scientists that are not bioinformaticians.
 
@MikeAsdf can confirm. Wife writes science-related code which sucks.
 
user47589
i feel like this conversation was just a backdoor way of promoting R and Shiny, and there isn't any evidence of any original research by the asker.
 
um... i smell telerik, anyone else?
 
7:44 PM
@Amy yeah
 
I had a friend working on converting some sort of DNA algorithms to work on a parallel cluster. He eventually discovered that 99% of the CPU time was already spent in a function that always returned 0 and had no side effects or state changes.
 
@MikeAsdf - #debug
 
Oh wow, I'll ditch all my effort so far and completely rewrite <insert app here> into R.
 
:^)
 
i am stupid to read that shiny introduction page. now i confirmed, it is just telerik duplication for R
and not that telerik MVC, it's that telerik webform if anyone still can recall
 
7:49 PM
Oh good god.
 
user47589
ugh, i've used the webforms telerik controls. never again
 
I used ajaxtoolkit which is now devexpress
cause telerik webforms was too expenssive
 
Give me React+WebAPI any day ~_~
 
user47589
how mature is React?
 
user47589
Or, rather, how stable is the API? It's still fairly new, isn't it?
 
7:54 PM
They didn't announce a 1.0 yet, but I haven't had much issues with the upgrade path (didn't actually change any code in a few 'major' versions). Note that I do use TypeScript.
That said, it doesn't move all that quickly, mainly because FB has a massive code base themselves.
 
o/
 
It's very easy, unlike most JS frameworks, to track.
 
it's like 60 degrees today
 
OMAIGOD ITS BOILING ITS BOILING
 
settle down watson, he's talking about freedom degree
 
7:56 PM
That is 15 degrees Celcius (also known as non-freedom units).
 
lol
 
@VermillionAzure I've tried backtracking the conversation as I haven't been around, but my observation is that your way of describing the problem you're trying to solve is quite peculiar in the C# world. I think it'd probably sound a lot simpler (to us) described by a C# programmer
 
FREEDOOOMMMM
 
But then probably not to you. There's a language barrier here, in other words
 
user47589
@TomW i'm not sure if there ever was a problem.
 
7:57 PM
for ppl living in his/her own world, best way to handle is to leave them there
 
Well I've been superficially exposed to computing in the science world. It is...quite weird, compared to computing in the real world
 

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