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8:00 PM
@Failsafe It's not, though - You need ExpandoObject as the type for the dynamic keyword in C# if you want to add properties at runtime
 
So I am making a request
But instead of hitting the freaking breakpoint
its doing 302
why
 
@Codeman I'd probably talk more about what my team does, and try to get input from them about how they think, but my approach to interviews is weird ;)
 
@ReedCopsey No it's not
 
@Codeman For a junior position, sure
 
@Failsafe var foo = new ExpandoObject();
 
8:00 PM
@ReedCopsey hehe, mine, too
 
or perhaps
 
@Jeremy this was a guy with 11 years experience
 
@ReedCopsey in term's of your approach to interviews
 
dynamic foo = new { ... };
 
@Jeremy doesn't sound like it was a jr position
 
8:01 PM
@Wardy should typically be dynamic foo = new ExpandoObject();
 
dynamic expandoObj = new ExpandoObject();
 
@Codeman relax, i believe nobody(or at least very few) is questioning your origin question of "what's the difference between tree and graph?". It's more the answer you are expecting or willing to accept. "a workflow is a type of graph" is not a accurate answer to question "what is a graph?", if you expect that kind of answer, you can lose your question to "what context can you describe as graph"
 
@ReedCopsey doesn't have to be ... but i agree should be
 
@tweray I just want them to be able to give me some idea that they know what a graph is
 
@Codeman yes, i got it, and your origin question is fairly good enough
 
8:02 PM
a graph is a series of points on a grid representing some form of data
how's that?
 
@Codeman i would
 
@Wardy no, but you can't use dynamic stuff without it ;) but that's why I said "should typically be"
 
@JoJo @Codeman would've fired you on the spot
 
@JoJo that's a fine answer - I'd say "ok, that makes sense - what about in terms of the computer science concept?"
 
ugh....
 
8:03 PM
YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK
 
@Failsafe I mean... you can keep making fun of me, or I can continue to give advice on how to pass interviews at big companies :P
 
@ReedCopsey yeh ... im guessing the keyword dynamic does some evil compiler stuff under the bonnet
 
@Codeman but if you what a much looser answer, you can actually ask a looser question that's easier to answer, that's all i'm suggesting
 
LOL
 
never really looked that up though
 
8:03 PM
@Codeman That's completely biased towards your one specific team
 
splash a bucket of red or blue paint on me
 
too scared of what i might find
 
"what is a graph" make ppl assume you want him to tell those 2 paragraph wiki description
 
I guess this is why I prefer more practical approaches to technical interviews
 
@Failsafe I don't think so. I doubt anyone at one of the big tech companies would pass someone who doesn't know CS101 stuff
you don't need a CS degree to get a job here, but you do need to know the concepts
 
8:04 PM
@Wardy it causes dynamic binding - it's really just making it an object,b ut then all of the usages of that variable get runtime binding
 
I don't care how you got the knowledge, but yes, you need it
 
posted on January 12, 2016 by Bertrand Le Roy

To read last week's post, see The week in .NET - 1/5/2015. On.NET Last week, we had Mads Torgersen on the show to talk about language design in general, and C# in particular. This week, we'll talk to Jonathan Chambers from the Unity 3D team about game engines, and using .NET to target iOS, Android, or even the Web. Please send me your questions ahead of time, or attend the show and ask them

 
Like, I interviewed at a place where their technical interviews were "write us a program that does $task. You can use whatever language you want and whatever resources you want, including your interviewer. You have three hours."
 
@Codeman i think that is true.. thank you for reminding me not to interview at one of those firms, AND I believe you are correct, and depending on the role your applying for you SHOULD know cs101 concepts
 
@mikeTheLiar yeah that's a good way to do things
 
8:05 PM
@Codeman - I think people are just saying it's possible to know the concepts and have the knowledge but be unaware of the the theory, terms or the way it's generally represented in a structured classroom.
 
@Codeman to be fair this isn't CS101 stuff
 
@Wardy graphs are not CS101 stuff?
 
its a very specific term that may mean something in a particular CS101 class possibly
 
Or at least, that's what I'm saying.
 
user47589
graphs are data structures, which was 2nd year for me.
 
8:05 PM
@SpencerRuport thanks for putting that so eloquently. I've been trying to say that for 15 minutes now
 
@Codeman same for me @Amy
 
other CS classes may never even use that term
 
I utterly fail with phone screen quizes.. but when I am employed full-time I work my ass off and perform more than most
 
I took a data structures course and passed it with the highest grade possible. We didn't cover graphs through
 
@SpencerRuport that's fine - I would expect the candidate to ask clarifying questions, not just say "I don't know".
 
user47589
8:06 PM
CS101 was more "this is a for loop, this is a if statement"
 
@Wardy this is CS101
 
Nah, I'm with @Amy
 
@Codeman you could get entire MCPD for example (degree level knowlege of the MS stack) and never see that term used
 
@Codeman - I agree with you there. Giving up is never a good sign.
 
CS101 was "Intro to C++ and OOP" for me
 
8:06 PM
@Codeman did you ask them to implement a graph? or give an example?
 
"I'm not familiar with the term graph, could you give an example and I'll connect it with something I know?"
@Failsafe nope, just said "what is it"
 
So yeah. "This is a variable, this is a loop, here's how you print to the console"
 
this was my first five minutes of questions where I ask stuff I consider to be dead simple
 
Or even, "Oh I've never seen that before but I can see how it would apply to something I worked on in the past."
 
@Codeman I wouldn't want to work for you, too much importance on irrelevant terminology
 
8:08 PM
shots fired
 
@Wardy I think you'll find that's not true :)
 
user47589
i would work with @codeman. competent coworkers are more important than coworkers who use my brand of terminology
 
@Codeman just how it comes across
 
if you've ever listened to anything I say here, I'm the opposite of the trivia snob interview approach
I WANT you to succeed in the interview, I really do
 
I dont think someone should need to know all / do all in web/software dev.. it's getting too broad.. I should not need to know angular and dba stuff.. and a zillion things in between
 
8:09 PM
if that was going to make or break my chances of getting the job i would probably walk right there
 
@Amy being able to communicate effectively in a diverse team is also a very important skill
 
user47589
good think i talk good
 
So @Codeman maybe a better question would be "here's [some task that could be solved with a graph]. How would you go about doing x, y and z?"
 
@JoJo I wouldn't expect someone to know angular for an angular job, necessarily. I would expect them to have pretty deep knowledge of javascript so they could get up to speed quickly
 
that said I have been in interviews where I didn't know what the term was but could provide an example (albeit by another name in my head)
 
8:10 PM
@mikeTheLiar yeah - I was trying to focus my coding question on the pair programming thing
 
I think what CodeMan is saying if you want to get a job that involves working with data structures extensively, you should know your data structures extensively. It sounds fair tbh
 
I think maybe it doesn't work as well for phone interviews?
 
@MoonOwl22 I agree
 
@Codeman that sounds reasonable
 
user47589
are you a glass is half full or glass is half empty kind of person?
 
8:10 PM
@MoonOwl22 fair point but I think this debate got a lot more general since then
@Amy what's in the glass?
 
yeah, if you're applying for a job that is going to be just maintaining simple websites, fine. But I work on a service that services millions and millions of people. The fundamentals have to be down pat for you
 
@MoonOwl22 or you should be able to show enough aptitude to be able to get up to speed quickly
 
I mean - I only took 4 CS classes in school, I had to learn most of it myself. I'm sure you guys can, too
 
@Codeman i also work on services that service millions and millions of people, don't need to know what a graph is
 
it's okay to have high expectations :)
@Failsafe omg, you know @KendallFrey 's mom?
 
user47589
8:11 PM
@Codeman that sounds like you're talking down to us.
 
@Failsafe that I agree with
 
@Amy not at all - just saying, I didn't have much of a CS education, and I got the job
 
@Codeman lol below the belt ... poor kendels mom
 
@Amy He's not. He's trying to help us
 
@Codeman amen, I agree. That's why I got to do a better job of specifying the jobs I am applying for.. I dont want to be the guy that KNOWS EVERYTHING.. if I was they would need to pay me 200k plus lol
 
8:12 PM
Below the belt. Just like Kendall's mom.
 
much of the dissenting views from the room are saying "you shouldn't have to have a CS degree to get a job" - well, no. But you should have a basic knowledge of the fundamentals. Period
 
@codeman yep. Get in the game!
 
I'm fine with mentoring and helping people learn, but they should bring something to the table themselves
 
Actually I don't think that's the sentiment.
But I'm willing to leave it since I should do some actual work
 
user47589
@MoonOwl22 i didn't ask for any help.
 
8:14 PM
:P yeah
 
@Codeman but if they dont know what the term graph meant they're done?
 
@Failsafe that's not what I said :P if they didn't, I'd expect them to ask clarifying questions
 
@JoJo im in that pos atm ... it sucks not having someone I can talk to at my technical level
 
but if you had 11 years of experience and had no idea what a graph was, that is a pretty big red flag
 
@Amy I didn't say he did but is most help not offered voluntarily?
 
8:14 PM
@Codeman what job was he applying for
tech lead?
 
@Failsafe senior SDE, most likely, as that is his current job title
but we don't interview for specific positions
 
When I talk about the projection my linq query made on the injected servisebus object that raised the workflow event to log the SQL statement ... I get blank looks
 
@Codeman what was the type of position he was applying for
 
@Codeman i'll be honest and put my hand up here
 
I have 16 years in web dev and have UTTERLY failed phone quizzes lol.. they are right and I am right.. I need more concepts/sw dev exp under my belt. I am right cause I have experience
 
8:16 PM
I had not heard that term until today
 
I mean... I can sugar coat it as much as I want, but if you're not pretty damn good, you probably aren't gonna get a job at a large tech company. The competition bar is too high
 
>large tech company
 
@Wardy well - now you learned something, and any day where you learn something is a good day. Keep being curious and looking for new stuff and you'll get to the point where you can say "graphs? pfft, ask me a hard question"
 
What is the salary for said role?
 
I am currently designing and building a middleware platform to hold most of the big players together in the aerosapce industry
 
8:17 PM
@Codeman okay, that did sound pretty fucking condescending
 
this was interesting, and truth be told i'd probably do some reading on graphs later
 
lol cause that's where I got my issue.. if they want me there with TOP CHOPS.. they gonna need to pony up 200k with my years exp.. but as I am.. 100k works
 
user47589
@mikeTheLiar yeah
 
but the point is ... I didn't know that 1 term
 
its a compromise
 
8:18 PM
@mikeTheLiar it was meant more to sound encouraging -_-
 
@Codeman I get asked to solve much worse every day
 
@JoJo salary and benefits are some of the best in the country
 
I'm of opinion that in CS it's near impossible to even know all of the CS101 level stuff ... there's just too much
I read up what i need each day to solve the problem at hand
 
There are mathy people who soak up the CS stuff
Doesn't necessarily make them better developers, but it seems to help
 
I'm not telling you this is how I'd do things if I was in charge, I'm telling you that's the way it is
 
8:19 PM
I think other things are probably more important, but are really hard to interview for
 
@Jeremy i know guys who literally spit out text book phrase at me all the time ... can't write code for shit
 
@Codeman Yea but it's not.
 
@Wardy that's why we ask for design questions and code :)
 
@Failsafe i concur
 
I just...I dunno. I work on software that handles billions of dollars of financial information a year. I don't know what a graph is. Does that mean that I shouldn't be working on this software?
 
8:21 PM
@Codeman i got my current job by proposing a new model for the entire company
 
@mikeTheLiar nah, I'm telling you that that's the level of knowledge required to work on my team
 
Just wave your hands, make boogly eye gestures and crow "MICROSERVICES!"
 
I'm sure every company is different :)
 
...yeah, I'm supposed to get this code review done today, but I think I'll find it more enjoyable when drinking at home tonight
Time to work on that project...
 
@TomW hahahaha, oh god, lolz
 
8:21 PM
People in suits know that word, and they're the ones with the money.
 
@TomW BUZZ WORD ALERT
 
Or, as they're known to anyone who doesn't sell or buy 'enterprise suites', "services"
 
Coderman: "well Mr theLiar, can you tell me the difference between graphs and trees?"
me: "..... smokebomb!"
 
What is your opinion on this topic of "Culture of Architecture"
 
8:22 PM
@TomW "I really feel that microservices proactively leveraged in the cloud are the most cromulent methods of making customers happy and building stockholder value"

"GIVE THAT GUY A BOARD SEAT"
 
user47589
the difference between graphs and trees? one bores you, you can get stoned off the other
 
Considering you're arguably working for a company that the "anti-CoA" camps often name in their internet cruscades
 
user47589
anti-CoA?
 
@mikeTheLiar graphs go in one direction mostly, trees go wherever the hell they want
 
@Amy See the HN link
 
8:23 PM
@Jeremy I think if you're building a startup and you just need to get an MVP out or die, sure, cut corners. But if you don't have a good architectural foundation, you're going to run into some serious growing pains at some point in your company's life
 
@Codeman That's basically my take, too, and I thought it was pretty commonly held...
 
@Codeman and cause a slowdown in the flow of new software
 
"serious growing pains" are basically why I have a job
 
@Jeremy Large technology projects require large-scale structure, and designing that aspect of the system doesn't necessarily require knowledge of any particular technology
 
"Fix this shit contractors threw together 15 years ago"
 
8:24 PM
That's an Architect.
 
But maybe the HN base is so startup-heavy that they can have these "fuck architecture, ship every day" mentalities and have it actually be healthy
 
if you tell me you really like microservices but can't tell me why they're a good idea (easier deployment, more testable, better integration testing, etc., etc.) then I'm just going to know you're spewing bullshit
 
@Codeman What bothers me is, easier than what?
 
Micorservices can cause things to be too tightly coupled right?
 
Microservices are better than...?
Megaservices?
 
8:25 PM
@Codeman yeah but I can tell you about the pros and cons of microservices. That seems a hell of a lot more useful that graphs v trees in the real world
 
@JoJo use IoC for your microservices
then all hell can break loose
 
@TomW it's the concept of separating your applications by domain concept instead of architecture layer
 
@TomW monolithic structure/"n-tier"
 
if I'm hiring for a startup, I want to see that you've completed projects with ambitious goals and aggressive deadlines.

If I'm hiring for a bluechips services based company, I want to see that you can build high quality code that is testable, maintainable, and usable by other people in the organization, and that you have the ability to recover from failures very gracefully
 
@mikeTheLiar i do both
 
8:26 PM
IMHO it's a false dichotomy. SoA was always about those things. If your services in the SOAP era were hard to scale, hard to test and tightly coupled, they were just bad services
 
@Wardy thanks
 
They didn't suffer from not having this modern notion of microservices. They were just bad.
 
@JoJo there are good reasons use both
but as with everything ... pro's and cons
 
well facsinating talk but I better get something done.. :)
 
@TomW I still use SOAP today. How is it possibly hard to test or tightly coupled?
 
8:27 PM
@Wardy I guess I should've said solely by architecture layer
 
@mikeTheLiar yeh don't do that
 
It's the classic (by that I mean old) model of separation of concerns
 
or hard to scale for that matter
 
Presentation, business logic, persistence
 
my current model involves using separation of layers to deterine where code should live in the stack and separation of business domains to break down logical breaks in business process
 
8:29 PM
@Failsafe well, suppose every service in your estate is shipped as part of an 'enterprise suite' that has a per-core licence
 
@Wardy that sounds like a good approach
 
oh thats disgusting
 
so i might for example have a db for a cms and another crm
then stack on top of both
 
but is that a service issue or a marketing issue
 
We've just got a lot of technical debt (aka job security)
 
8:29 PM
ef, business services, odata
then build apps on top of those api's that may speak to both sets of odata services
 
I like the linked HN post
 
@Failsafe I couldn't strictly name a product that's exactly like that. They've probably already been scrapped. Sounds like something Oracle would do.
 
@mikeTheLiar: until you get sick and tired of just repairing the clusterfuck and quit your job.
 
@TomW Yea im using that right now
 
can someone try to get a nuget package for me? I am getting 404 for some reason
 
8:30 PM
my asshole has expanded by meters from the fucking they are giving me every day
 
not sure if it is my machine problem
 
@mikeTheLiar lol classic
 
@Failsafe you can fit more paninis in there then
 
@Failsafe So the thing is, managers tend to think that buying a single big thing is somehow better
Probably because they don't have to sign as many requisitions (It wouldn't surprise me to know that all the bullshit in this industry is literally because of that)
Even if it's incredibly expensive and doesn't do any of the things you want
 
@TomW Probably because a vendor came in and sold a bad bill of goods
 
8:32 PM
>tfw trying to add foreign key to table that you haven't created yet
 
to a executive who doesn't know shit
 
@TomW: ah yeah, managers..
 
Yes, beg your pardon, executives
 
@TomW so sell it as a big thing but build lots of small things that communicate with each other
I built a SSO server last week
now I can put up a new app and setup SSO auth in 4 lines of code :)
 
user47589
pointy-haired bosses
 
8:33 PM
i'm so proud of that
 
@TomW Managers tend to love things that are anti-Unix. Unix programs do exactly one thing extremely well. Anti-Unix programs do everything badly.
 
user47589
im in ur sso, hacken ur codez
 
@Wardy that's cool :) I tried to setup ASP.NET WebAPI with refresh/bearer tokens and it took me the better part of a week...
 
@Codeman yeh took me a lot longer than that
 
hehe
 
8:34 PM
@Codeman yep, pretty much the sentiment I was expressing
 
setting up the server probably did only take a week tbh ... but then making it so that I can share tokens across domains
that was hard
 
@TomW think about something like grep. Unix programmers don't even like grep because they think it's too complicated, lol
 
@Amy good luck with that
 
@Wardy oh yeah - we run into that problem ourselves, it's quite difficult
 
@Codeman yeh i solved that solo ... noone else in the company had a bloody clue
 
8:35 PM
hosting your own OpenID server or something?
 
annoying as hell to work on something so complex solo
@Codeman hosting a middleware platform for an industry
but each client may have their own tools / apps
 
My company's doing one of those, for pharmaceuticals in the EU
 
Dunno if you caught this... but as I'm kind of a *nix fanboy... ;)
 
they need a means to login in 1 place then transparently move between apps without having to re auth
 
8:36 PM
I'm not involved in that project
 
@Jeremy lolz
 
Has some good points, to be honest, but a lot of it boils down to "*nix philosophy often forces leaky abstractions or violations of the philosophy."
 
@Codeman we can now take bits of info like a cookie for a website and use the credentials in that to determien the SSO account ... through that we can grant rights to other resources in other domains
bloody hell to setup
but it's awesome once its up and running
 
sounds like it. How do you prevent cookie rewrite attacks? HttpSignatures combined with a nonce?
 
because tokens have an expiry too we do stuff like redploy apps and the user can use an existing token to basically carry on making requests
@Codeman i'm debating not using cookies at all
just using tokens goign forward ... not found a clean way in MVC to use them yet though
like for example ... how do I auto add the auth header on a form post?
if i crack a few more of the smaller issues with token management on web clients I should be able to entirely work using tokens
and with low expiry times it should be pretty secure
 
8:42 PM
Silly question; difference between a token and a cookie? Is a cookie not just a token anyway?
 
@Jeremy What we have of *nix "teaches people about computers" because of very leaky abstractions
 
@TomW lol i guess yeh ... depending on your view of them
 
@TomW you just failed the interview
 
@mikeTheLiar lol
 
hehehe
 
user47589
cookies can be nom'd. can't nom tokens
 
@mikeTheLiar I know. I'm making sure he knows :P
(not really. It was kind of a rhetorical question though.)
 
Leaky abstractions have educational value
 
I assume the distinction was between using the browser's built-in mechanism for maintaining session cookies and those usually just identify a session, and defining your own token format which you expect the API user to explicitly retain and insert into every request
Is that it?
 
8:46 PM
@TomW this is a better explanation of them: php.about.com/od/learnphp/qt/session_cookie.htm
I was hoping to find this description on SO somewhere but meh!
Well that conversation died fast!
 
@Wardy I left because people were being unnecessarily mean to me when I had good intentions :(
 
@Wardy @Codeman what conversation?
 
i find developers are hard work to talk to
I really want to talk to devs that are actually positive for a change
its better in here than that bloody game dev chat room
they all seem to have some sort of superiority complex over there
 
theres a game dev chat room?
 
i'm exactly grreat great with geometry but im pretty good with logic
 
8:56 PM
huh
 
"Hi there. I heard you're all assholes"
2
 
Give me $5 ill do it
no ragrets
 
@Wardy Stunning in English too
 
anybody expert in regular expression visual studio
 
I'm an expert in regular expressions
 
8:58 PM
@KendallFrey my bad
 
I'm a hater of VS
take your pick
 
I am facing problem while replacing content using visual studio
 
gotten lazy with intellisense writing half my stuff
 
haha it's google that does that for me
 
Some versions of VS had their own, strange interpretation of regular expressions. I'm not sure whether it still does
 
8:59 PM
Before
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var objElem2 = document.all.HNBCEA1_txtHNBCEASuppPremAmt
after
 
mash the keyboard, it'll figure out what I want
 
@Codeman - Hope you didn't feel like I was being an asshole. It was not my intention. <3
 
var objElem1 =document.getElementById('HNBCEA1_ddlHNBCEASuppCovg')
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