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20:54
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A: Narrowing ourselves into irrelevance

Lightness Races in OrbitStack Overflow does not have to cater to every single kind of question you choose to think of. It is not a blogging platform, or a tutorial platform, or an index for third-party resources, or a forum, or a discussion board, or a chat. The example questions you posted are mostly pretty rubbish bu...

That's a pretty helpful answer. Thanks. I suppose the issue I am raising here is not what SO is today (net of the various evolutions it's come through). I agree wholly with you on that. It's more a discussion of the counterfactual of what it could be (or should be). Call it moaning if you like, but a reasoned argument to broaden scope was intended as a suggestion rather than a complaint. I suppose one could say women moaned way back then about the right to vote, or people moaned that monks had a monopoly over books. That doesn't necessarily mean their views were not constructive.
@tohster: Well I must agree that your view cannot be deemed unconstructive. But I do still disagree at this point in time with the view itself and the notion that this may change in the future doesn't change it now. :)
@lightness agreed. It's good at least that folks are willing to consider a different POV as SO evolves. A broadening of scope doesn't come at a "zero sum" cost of excluding narrowly scoped questions... It could be accretive to the community. The Encyclopedia Brittanica started off as "a dictionary of Arts and Sciences" but evolved into greatness through judicious broadening of scope. Btw, here is their entry on 'lobster' goo.gl/qJK9K9
@tohster Sure, but the trade off is different in each case. The quality of SO content is generally incredibly high in comparison to most websites (I'm sure we all remember the days of the old terrible exchange sites that had poor, hard to digest content). That is because the moderation and, more importantly, voting/closing system weeds out the chaff. Broadening the scope would just mean more poor content that doesn't help people.
@Lattyware the crucial assumption there is that broadening the scope would mean poor content. Take a look at the list of popular questions in the OP. These questions have irrefutably helped thousands of programmers, yet under today's moderating system most would be judged too broad. One might judge the content 'poor' if the yardstick is whether it confirmed to the current system of rules. But to me the thousands of votes indicate that by any other reasonable yardstick the content is fantastic.
20:54
@tohster You are making the exact opposite assumption. Let's look at what we do know - the content getting closed off is mostly too broad/unclear (impossible to answer well, so won't produce good content), duplicates (the answer already exists, so duplicating that gains nothing, ) or primarily opinion based (again, impossible to answer well in SO's format). Where is this potentially useful content currently being lost?
The examples in your post are a mix of some valid (with no reason, as I see it, to believe they would get closed) - things like 'how do closures work' are find provided the depth they want is reasonable. The list of books and so on simply don't work well with what SO is intended to be. They get outdated and the format doesn't match. There are better places elsewhere (and if there are not, the solution is to make one, not try to make SO the jack of all trades but master of none).
@Lattyware it's being lost because those valuable questions, if they were posted today, would be held and then closed as too broad and the public deprived of great didactic answers. If someone even attempted to post a question like "python metaclass vs class decorator" today, that question would be put on hold immediately. Fortunately the moderation was not as stringent when Alex Martinelli answered it, and the community is IMO far richer for that.
@tohster Do you have any example questions of that scope and quality you can point to where they have been closed? You are painting this as an epedemic, but it's not one I'm seeing.
@Lattyware sure: try posting a question entitled "The definitive Ruby (or insert a language of your choice) Book Guide and List".
"Stack Overflow does not have to cater to every single kind of question you choose to think of." that needs to be in h1 or something.
@tohster Those kind of list questions are definitely not good for SO, and never would be. They don't suit the format and belong elsewhere. They very posts you claim show the problems - too much information, little value from the answer rnakings, out of date information, etc... I definitely don't buy SO would be better with those kind of questions allowed.
20:54
@Lattyware we can certainly agree to disagree on this. Compare that question one that says: 'why is this line of code in (my custom corporate IT software) not working?'. Which is likely to become obsolete faster? Which is likely to benefit more programmers? Which is likely to receive more search hits, attract more users, and be of more practical use to the programming community? The statement that these Q's are definitely not good for SO seems self-referential (PC 's will never be good for ordinary people). Certainly, the popularity of the question should not be dismissed so definitely imo.
If the hypothetical question has no value, it should be dealt with on it's own merit (or lack thereof). That doesn't mean we should accept questions that simply don't fit the format. If you want a resource for that, go to a wiki, or a curated list, or google. SO doesn't make sense, any more than it does for me to start posting up code snippets to share. If I want that, I go to pastebin or gist or whatever.
@Lattyware I think this exchange is pretty helpful because it surfaces some of the concerns that are really driving the fear of the broad. Format is one that comes up a lot (aka should be a blog). If that is a concern, why hold the question rather than just constrain the format? If a question is too broad, constrain answers to 2 paragraphs rather than hold it. I will bet my career that even broadest programming questions can garner fantastic concise answers. Holding just allows a few to bet against the talent of the many, which is a pity
@tohster Because it's not just about length. Again, to put the analogy in, sure, SO has code highlighting, so what about allowing code snippets, but only when they are under 500 lines? It's weird to try and shoehorn in something that doesn't fit, and it doesn't benefit anyone. Use a site with a format that suits the problem at hand, and it'll be better for everyone, rather than SO getting more cruft getting in the way of the useful content.
@Lattyware respectfully, I think if your unshakeable belief is that SO is not appropriate for that set of questions despite what I consider to be their obvious merit and the fact that voters -- on SO -- have elevated the answers (also on SO) in the thousands, then I think we can just agree to disagree cordially on this topic. Also, the format constraint would apply only to questions judged too broad since that is the specific concern (Ie instead of 'hold because too broad', you just get to 'constrain because too broad').
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It was not an invitation for open discussion. It was a very concrete question about the architectural relationship between two components. Anyone who provided a non-concrete answer to the question either doesn't understand software architecture or simply has poor reading comprehension. Such an answer should be downvoted. The question itself is valid and well constrained.
20:54
"kept only out of practical concern for an unfortunately high number of inbound hyperlinks across the web" The reason they have so many links is because they're considered extremely useful and valuable by a large number of people. This is exactly the issue the OP is trying to raise and discuss: that we're keeping out useful content. Useful content is both the heart and soul and the bread and butter of the entire StackExchange network. Do we really want to limit that content? You've started with the premise that we do want to throw it out, but don't explain the reasons.
@jpmc26: Sigh. This myth just won't die, will it? There is this nonsense idea "if it's useful, keep it". Well then let's just start posting nice cooking recipes on SO cos that'll help someone. Sod on-topicness, sod the core mission statement of SO. It's useful!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I didn't say we should keep it. I said you didn't make a good case for not keeping it. You say something about "blog-style guides," but I can't make heads or tales of what that means in practical terms. There's nothing "mythical" about wanting to have even more useful information in a place that's already chock full of the stuff. I think the appropriate response to this question requires a realistic, practical case against it, and I find such flippant dismissal of that request (and consequentially, refusal to educate, at a minimum) counterproductive.
@jpmc26: It's entirely self-evident. This is a question and answer repository. The post was not a question, therefore it was off-topic, therefore I used the tools provided to mark a post as such. It's as simple as that. I'm not "flippantly dismissing" or "refusing to educate" whatsoever: on the contrary, I have stated this several times now. It is your refusal to listen that is most perplexing.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's not at all clear how how "What and where are the stack and heap?" is not a question. Sure, at face value, the title sounds a little broad, but that question/answers are so popular because the answers were able to provide some good introductory information that leads people down the right path to learn more. AFAIK, SO's mission statement has very little to do with being "a Q&A site". The mission is to build a repository of useful information for programmers. Q&A just happens to be good at that; insisting this is a "Q&A repository" sounds like some kind pedantry.
@jpmc: Ahhhhhhh sorry scratch my last comment (only) - I mistook this thread for that on another meta post. I am involved in a very similar discussion where some numpties are trying to persuade me that a post that doesn't have a question in it at all (it was like a blog post) should be kept because of its supposed "usefulness".
20:54
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I want to note I only picked that question as a specific example because of space. The specific question actually posted by the OP may have some wording and scoping issues, although I think there may be a case for it being good if it could be reworded some. Some of the other examples in the question are good examples of the same thing: a relatively "broad" question that inspired excellent answers focused on introducing someone to the material. These are good questions and answers, and they're a good fit for this site.
Also, some discussion of SO's mission seems to more or less agree with me about what SO is here to accomplish: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/254770/…. The Q&A restriction is merely in place to keep a lot of clutter out, specifically the kind that actively gets in the way of finding information. That fact shouldn't make us discourage content that's good and helpful to people. Some of the content you are talking about throwing out doesn't fall into the category of "things that keep people from finding good info."
As as aside, what are some good places for open ended blog style discussions to programming questions? SO Chat sometimes works, but that's kind of fleeting after awhile. Reddit?
Your view of, "we are a Q&A repository" completely ignores what this site was founded to do. You're tired of people arguing in favor of useful content? Well, I'm tried of people arguing that some kind of pedantic adherence to rules is a better criteria. Read this: blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/01/stack-overflow-where-we-hate-fun. Atwood gladly admits that it's a bad idea to go around being pedantic. When you argue against useful content, you're arguing against the founding principles of this site.
@jpmc26: I don't think "pedantic" means what you think it means. Either way, I'm not going to repeat my argument ad nauseam. You've gone off the deep end, somewhat: you think it's an on-topic question, I don't. Or, you think off-topic questions should not be closed, because they are "useful", which is absurd. Either way we're not going to get anywhere with this.
 
1 hour later…
22:13
@LightnessRacesinOrbit "Off-topic" is again just pointing at some set of rules, rather than actually thinking about whether the content is good or bad for the site. It is infinitely frustrating when someone elevates rules above the reality. This is not "off the deep end." It's about being practical and realistic and not expecting that we can codify the complexities of "good content" in a neat little set of rules.
If the content brings people to the site and actually helps them and is clearly presented, how in the world is it a detriment to anyone? And you still haven't address the original question: why do you want to remove it? Generally the "why" would be that it's in some way harmful; what harm is it doing? You're dancing around the question I keep asking over and over, when you could just explain.
And pedantic means exactly what I think it means: "overly concerned with minute details or formalisms" (dictionary.reference.com/browse/pedantic?s=t).

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