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9:00 AM
I was thinking that some sort of pattern might be useful there, like decorator or command maybe
 
you need dispatch
and yes. You could abstract away database calls
you mentioned DI. So if you have DI around it, it's abstracted away I guess
do you use ORM?
 
I've implemented it as a ground work for future
EF
Basically I have legacy code, that is still growing into more legacy
Since nobody really cares
 
nice. Than dbcontext can be already mocked out
 
I either have to push those guys or look for other job
 
read the book Dealing with legacy code
 
9:10 AM
Something tells me shoto urself will be 1st paragraph
and second if you are still here...
 
the most prominent technique is find pinch points, and test around them
 
Who is author?
Implementing changes with no business case behind is very hard
 
if you have enough torough testing, you can rewrite any 10k+ loc to around 2K
 
my DI is under "modified GoogleTagManager implementation" commit
 
you mentioned the many ifs
it's a very nice case, that you should write a lot of tests to map the ifs
 
9:12 AM
Thise ifs look like if sender is "user" "admin" "marketing" do XYZ email
and 200 lines below, wow we missed something lets rewrite same logic but add extra conditions
 
if you have a great understanding which real business need, you can at least name your tests like... When_user_tries_open_admin_page...
 
logic so complex I spent 2 hours drawing flowchart and it died without saving :D
 
basically you make that 100 ifs 100% covered
lol
 
I think there are rare case bugs
in that mess
 
there are
 
9:14 AM
so rare that they are ignored
 
ofcourse. Yesterday I tested my code
 
Yeah think how many bugs you'd find in that rat's nest writing tests for real scenarios
 
I even put Assert.Fail in one place, because I couldn't make a valid unit test to cover that place
and removed 20 ish lines of code, that I found out that error was handled before
 
Tests are good as a way of defining what you want the behaviour to be before you write it
 
Yeah I am pushing people to use "acceptance criteria" when they write bugs or tasks
So I can use that as set of rules for unit tests
 
9:16 AM
nice
 
It's hard to explain for fellow devs why they need more time writing requirments
and even harder for marketing department
Not sure how long I could take it :D
 
Wow your business sounds frankly fucked
 
Dev department is more like a side effect
business expects us to deliver all the time
with new requirements coming in after project is signed off or is like 12h before live release
 
We had soo much talk about a requirement, that the customer couldn't tell anything specificable yet...
so I changed the format to DDD
 
I think worst part is when people modify documentation and then claim it was there all the time.
IT NOT DELIVERING
I.T.
Most of our codebase looks like university level code
no patterns, no language features
all straightforward
 
9:22 AM
Sounds about right
> with new requirements coming in after project is signed off or is like 12h before live release
Tis the job my dude
 
I sent things like that>
Feature: Add Customer
Allow users to create and store new customers
As long as the new customers have a first and last name

Scenario: HappyPath
Given a user has entered information about a customer
And she has provided a first name and a last name as required
When she completes entering more information
Then that customer should be stored in the system
so in the end I could point out, why is the customer contradicting him/herself
SpecFlow made code from that semi free style formal specification
and I could code that all tested
what I had to write is make generators of text -> business object
and it's not DDD it's BDD
 
Practice saying no.
 
It's all well and good saying no
but then that person goes to your boss and tells them completely different stuff
your boss comes to you and gives you shit for not listening to the requirements that they didn't tell you
 
our boss tried the same with us... "12h before live release". You are the guy responsible to give evidence to the boss, that the programmers are "Geordi"s. My colleague hears the word "do it in 2 days", he tries his best. I say, it takes a week...
 
you get the requirements from that person
then go to your boss and tell them they are brand new requirements
get told to do it anyway
Something for developers to keep in their head
It's not your job to make sure that what you are doing is right.
It is your job to make sure what you are implementing/creating/fixing works like it should//like you've been told it should
It the person asking you to do something doesn't know what they want and makes you do the wrong thing, that is not your problem
 
9:33 AM
it's ethical stuff, that you try to educate managers, how development works tho. You should tell, that changing reqs will postpone release
 
If customer doesn't know what he wants, that's fine. Just make sure there's an understanding that for every additional thing asked or changed, it'll take more time and more effort
More importantly, make sure your boss knows this
 
talking lot about what effects what. Like throwing 10 coding monkeys doesn't increase speed
 
@CaptainSquirrel then document the requirements gathering properly
 
@ntohl depends on how hard you throw them.. ;)
 
All these arguments can be paraphrased as "we can't stop being stupid because we're stupid"
 
9:35 AM
😃 you can buff up your arms, that's right...
 
@TomW Generally i'd always ask people to log tickets/send emails so i have exactly what they want
or i'd send them an email and ask them to confirm
and it should be
 
Or actually do project management
 
that's not my job
I don't get paid to project manage
I get paid to dev
 
Not you personally, but someone
 
That only works provided that people didn't come to your desk and start asking you to change this really important thing that needs to be done right now because they can't work without it
etc etc
 
9:37 AM
Obviously if you have this situation where people are making up their account of history, you have no real process
 
There wasn't a real process lmao
 
Just say no. If it wasn't in the project planning you can't have it.
 
Luckily, there is a real process now
 
At my old job, I had many bosses (already a red flag).
It happened on more than one occasion that one boss would ask me to stop whatever I was doing and work on A, and another boss would ask me to stop whatever I was doing and work on B
 
had that happen to me too...
fun times
 
9:38 AM
In those situations, I say, boss 1 already asked me to work on A. If you want me to work on B, get boss 1's approval first
 
... Joel wrote about ticketing system, you can shake someone off by telling them to use the ticketing system, and assign high priority
 
they're usually pretty reasonable about that
 
In my case it's not even managers issue, its so corporate that you need stakeholders acceptance to fart...
 
that way it's visible for every competent person, whats get delayed and why
 
where you get into trouble is if you work on B and then boss 1 finds out you aren't working on A
 
9:39 AM
@CaptainSquirrel I have been blamed on several moments because something didnt work as user needed, in project where I was just a monkey coder, and I say to the analyst "hey!, this makes no sense, review this requirements". The analyst didnt didnt do his job.
 
@ntohl at my current job, there are some people which won't even let you speak a full sentence without interrupting with, "Open a ticket.."
 
My boss blamed me because of it, and my manager did blame me about it in my yearly review
 
seriously, I think that's overdoing it a bit
 
My manager takes the bullet if something goes wrong
nobody blames anyone ;D
 
@bradbury9 situations like that you need to have an email chain that proves you just did as you were asked
 
9:40 AM
now im looking for a new company, it will be fun if they dare to make me an "exit interview"
 
@bradbury9 The analyst needs to change the requirements.. if he does not, go to your boss
 
we just constantly fix shit we make
 
There was functionality that was signed off that was "Fine" for 3 months
 
I got 10+ emails were I warned about that
 
It is only your fault if you don't get shit done one way or another when you see something that isn't right
 
9:41 AM
then suddenly it was a problem because we weren't actually being compliant and could have been fined
 
those people might be so overloaded, that it works only that way...
 
which when the question was asked to me as to why it was like this
 
Hey guys is this tested?
- Yes, we are happy, go LIVE
Ohh I forgot to release it to UAT, how the f*** u tested it ?
2
 
my response was I asked x to confirm that was we did was correct & i asked them to test it
 
Well, my code was compilant for the requirements, and I warned about those weird requirements
 
9:42 AM
Then i pulled up the email chain that proved that & showed that they didn't even test it, just signed it off
which then prevented me from being blamed
 
@CaptainSquirrel I've been there.. like "Where were you 3 months ago when you said this was fine?"
 
@bradbury9 I'd say if you are satisfying requirements they put it's not ur problem
 
@Neil Exactly why I had the email chain for that exact reason
 
They will think of them better or take advice next time.
 
Especially when its functionality to stop the business getting fined up to 100k
 
9:43 AM
Unless your boss and your boss' boss are stupid
 
yeah, you learn to keep your boss in CC in all important e-mails
 
They might be bussy
 
Nah
I only cc'ed my manager in when i wanted to get a response
 
My boss was in CC in all those emails
 
My manager is that busy doing thing he is not supposed to do that it hurts me, since I can't get response in 3 days from guy who sits in next room on requirements he didn't specify
 
9:44 AM
@bradbury9 well then lets just say it's probably best you switched jobs :)
 
Its just both my boss and my manager do think developers should behave as analyst
 
@bradbury9 then keep the requirements that you get
 
Havent done yet, im lokkin into it
 
so when people ask "why does it do x"
you pull the spec up and go
 
@bradbury9 That's fine, but only if they realize that you get the perks as well as the responsibility
 
9:44 AM
I can be part tester + analyst, but I expect my salary to go up as well
 
its not on the spec, so it wasn't done because i didn't know about it
 
and part of that perk is rewriting the specifications as needed
 
its not on the spec, it ain't getting done
 
I try not to do things that are not on my contract
 
I was stung waaaay too many times by adding stuff that i thought would be useful because it did specific things that were never used
quite
 
9:45 AM
Honestly I think the analyst and the programmer should be separate roles, just like the tester and the programmer should be separate roles
but not every company has those kinds of resources, so meh
 
Analyst and Programmer are seperate roles
 
like dev is now 3 roles
 
want me to do both?
 
it's like full stack
 
Pay me double what i'm getting now and change my jobtitle to DevOps Engineer
 
9:46 AM
jack of all trades
 
here devs are better compensated. Because ppl think it's not the tester's fault, if something wrong. Even if the tester was said to test something
 
Takes a lot of time to master all
 
you could split "developer" into many many different roles if you wanted, and that's not including analyst or tester
 
In some projects im both analyst and coder, but in that one I was not. And I warned about the weird stuff, and blamed because tof that exact same weird stuff
 
In my case I am doing whole projects by myself
 
9:47 AM
unit testing IS dev's job
 
because working together cause merge issues..... but that is exact reason we use git
@ntohl we did teach testers to do that (write code to run their test cases)
 
unit testing is dev's job, sure
that's not what testers do
 
A month ago I sent email to the manager saying in polite words "Why the fuck do you demote me in my yearly review for not doing a followup of the problems I warned about despite the fact it was not my duty"
 
since testers have a looooot of tests
it would be a waste of dev time
 
though I have seen testers who write unit tests
 
9:48 AM
on a budget
 
@bradbury9 manager gets points with his boss if he can demote people and save the company money
bottom line
 
U would call testers job easier since they don't need to think on how to implement things, but from perspective what are all ways how to break it its very tedious
 
I think they just put it in their heads that they have to demote someone this year.. and from there they just try to figure out the swing
 
There are no unit test in my company, nor tester role, neither CI/CD system
 
I pushed for 2 years to get CI/CD into my last place
 
9:50 AM
@bradbury9 Same here, but I am building groundwork for it
 
Ugh. CI is mandatory and non-negotiable
 
and then it was implemented BY ME when i had handed my notice in
 
It's not good for the programmer to be tester for a number of reasons
 
Tell my boss and my manager
 
you test it in the way that conforms to your model of how the program should work
You cannot possibly know ways to use the program that you haven't considered
 
9:51 AM
#1 being you know how to test it because you know how it works
 
and therefore someone else has to try your program
 
Indeed, all test are potentially biased, you code in some manner and test it that way
 
@bradbury9 I came to consclusion - Either push them or leave them
 
Yeah testing your own code and not involving someone else is a recipe for discovering issues too late
 
tl;dr give it to the person that somehow manages to make their windows machine get the apple beachball of death
 
9:52 AM
that said, damn is it difficult to explain this idea to your boss
 
Not actively, but im opting for the later @Raimonds
 
"why should I hire someone to do something you can do yourself?"
 
Same
 
"because it will help ensure better quality of life for the product and its functionality, which means less time bug fixing in the future"
 
a good compromise is to ask another programmer to test your program
 
9:53 AM
or a senior
 
not the same, but well, it's something at least
 
@Neil Now add that getting ur bosses time is difficult as f*** and let's add that he has no idea what are you all about
 
People with more to do are less likely to have time to think about it though
 
@Raimonds ikr?
 
if your boss doesn't see the point in getting QA, how are they your boss
 
9:54 AM
there is no CI either
 
The boss of a programmer should be a programmer.. not just project lead, but actual boss imho
 
Managers are not alyways people who know how it should work
 
this trope of some fearless general with no technical knowledge leading the lowly code monkeys has to stop
 
HAMMERTIME!
 
@Raimonds But they should be to an extent
they don't have to be good programmers, but they should still know enough..
 
9:55 AM
If you are software house yes
My company has in-hose dev team
 
Why are there so many useless managers anyway
 
house*
 
otherwise you end up in situations where your boss tries to force a trout of a requirement down your throat and then doesn't understand why you say it'll take you 2 months to do it
if the manager has programming experience, he knows 2 months is reasonable requirement for what he's asking
 
A lot of bs happens here
 
or better still, he'll propose an alternative solution which takes less
 
9:57 AM
I can't even push beyond pure js or jQuery since nobody knows what modern js is
.net core, maybe in a decade ....
 
otherwise, you get, "Remember that program I said would have to work only on Linux machines? Can you get that program to work also on windows? You've got 2 days before we're pushing to production."
 
I think "manager" a lot of the time is a person who is prepared to sit in meetings and make spreadsheets. They don't actually contribute anything except give the same person responsible for them something to talk about in their meetings and make spreadsheets about
 
our business is not flexible in my opinion
People waste more time on talking and arguing and nothing gets done.
I try to avoid any meetings and talks that solve nothing
 
A conversation that actually decides something is worthwhile
You can get a lot done with talking, or nothing
 
Meetings sometimes even ignore agenda
Sometimes you have 2 meetings about same issue with two different people
who have their own meeting
I want to have my own team...
 
10:01 AM
divide et impera meeting
 
even full of juniors, I am more then willing to teach them, just let me do stuff as I see it
 
(ego)
 
When I and my brother were like five, we had this game whenever our dad used the word "meeting" someone had to shout "Boring!"
We came up with that ourselves
Insightful for a five year old I thought
 
I never liked to manage people or have team of my own, but at this point I'd rather go that route than get request from "senior dev" to make async frontend request to backend without using javascript
 
well to some extent, doing stuff as you see fit is what we do for a living
we're only bound by requisites. how it works is up to us 100%
a manager should only bother with creating the requisites in such a way as to minimize time it takes to do it but still make the client happy
 
10:06 AM
Bad manager: You got 2 days. good manager: If I get you lasers can you do it in 2 days?
 
Lasers you say
 
Everything is better when you prefix it with "Laser"
 
Lasergrandma
 
Laser developers are best, boy do they have focus ;)
 
"Visual Studio is busy"
YEAH BUSY DOING LITERALLY EVERYTHING APART FROM WHAT I WANT
 
10:11 AM
Busy re-writing all your configs LOL
Commit … WTF ??? are all these changes?
Oh space added to every single closing xml node, well gee thanks for saving me all that time.
 
\o/
Visual Studio says: I'm Helping!
 
Busy waiting for mcafee to give actual machine resources...
 
your first problem: having mcafee
 
is there no way to disable whitespace differences?
 
The trouble with whitespace is it's so insignificant except when its significant.
 
10:23 AM
@HollyStyles this is deceptively brilliant
 
The whitespace paradox!
 
Why is it white tho?
 
that's racist!
 
I wonder why snowflakes didn't pick up on it yet
 
Laser Visual Studio is busy
 
10:30 AM
LVS
 
LVS > VSCode
 
@Raimonds because backspace was already taken and too easily confused.
 
10:46 AM
Once I asked for an exclusion in antivir rules for code source folder on dev machines and they said "Its to dangerous!"
After 6 months complaining about HDD speed, finally got an SSD. I dont ask any more about antivir exclusions
With no executables running, shutting down the machine took 20 minutes
 
everybody should be using SSD by now
it's been around for what, 10 years?
 
They didnt believe me until the sysadmin came with the SSD wen to the shutdown and said "WTF! There is nothing running! It should shutdown!" and I answered "Yeah, thats why I was complaining for 6 months"
They didnt notice that 20 minutes of work each day for each developer is a huge amount of money
 
You got payment for these 6 month 20min shutdowns ;)
 
in my office we are about 160 ppl
 
I wish shutting down took 8 hours and 30 minutes
then I could start up and shut down and wait my day out
 
10:53 AM
Our company depended on a personalized framework which we stopped paying support for and we were having problems. I found a library which would potentially let me fix this serious problem without requiring support, but it cost 50 euros. My boss said no.
 
mcafee once silently prevented assembly copy to bin folder on build machine. Took system archaeology heroics to debug the issue of these missing dll's
 
@bradbury9 I had to make ticket "rebooting my machine" in order to explain why it takes me so long to do certain tasks
That is why I want to switch to linux based system and .net core
About that book "Working Effectively with Legacy Code"
It's dated 2004
It is so sad that it is 2019 and I am dealing with legacy code prior to 2004 :D
 
A legacy book about legacy code. Yo dawg ...
 
I might have a look into it but I don't think It will give me much
Book I should read should be titled "Making impossible possible in 12 easy steps"
 
Although I think it's more than 12 steps
You can't cheat the speed of light, and you can't cheat your 10,000 hours practice.
Yet anyway
but … maybe lasers ...
 
11:08 AM
 
You can cheat speed of light
if it goes just to be faster
 
Ha! LOL Flux Capacitor <- Love it!
 
I ma on step 5 - 6
 
!!googleme etemology Flux Capacitor
 
11:11 AM
I failed job interview because I didn't know what polymorphisms definition was
I still don't :D
 
Polymorphism allows you postpone definition until 12 hours before ship date ;)
 
Sounds more like Auto Implement interface
throw not implemented excetion :D
exception*
I decided to watch video on what it is, despite I already am using it
I just hate being judged based on how good I can explain things not on how well I perform them
 
sneaks into room
 
Intruder alert!
 
Worst case is when I know something well beyond level of someone
So because of lack of their knowledge they think I am wrong :(
Whats up @Hans1984
 
11:19 AM
To be master you must not forget your were once a novice
 
@HollyStyles :D
@Raimonds hey
 
your? you were! I am so not a master of typing.
 
@HollyStyles I can refer to people who are just getting on developer train
God how annoying and dumb I was back in the day :D
Who else things self appraisal is bs?
thinks*
 
Eh self appraisal is crucial to spiritual growth! But you must be kind to yourself.
 
Like my manager said my paper work has nothing positive in it he can pick from.
I asked what if I reach my peak and there will be nothing positive I can mention at all
I gave shitiest papers ever possible, next year review can't be worse
I guess it's a good starting point
@HollyStyles I am quite strict and judging, that makes me improve all the time
 
11:25 AM
Being shit-hot and perfect is no good if your miserable.
Your again!
You're
 
How does one determines he is miserable?
 
My head is hurting reading sql statemetns some cray guy wrote
 
^^ Timing!
 
my head is hurting reading
i cant read
 
that's because you are a roach
 
11:30 AM
@Squirrelintraining you know what you gotta do. Break it up into smaller statements.
 
Ha
ha
ha :(
Already am doing that
and the subselect's ain't returning anythng,
 
They sure love to do that
 
There is sth. down the lins
Inner join [...]
   and (optionA AND optionB)
inner join [...]
   and not (optionA AND NOT optionB)
 
comment out criteria one at a time till you get data. Change all joins to LEFT INNER, still no data, realise table is empty DOH!
 
maybe optionA is a bad name, parameter A would be better.
but nvm it serves it's point
 
11:34 AM
Nothing like belt and braces redundancy, just to be sure the computer understands.
 
Is ther anyway where both inner joins don't give back the same value?
 
is […] the same table/view or different?
 
user7858150
Is it possible to access server hardware with .NET core? I'm thinking about a virtual assistant, something akin to Mycroft
 
SELECT * FROM TableA AS t1
INNER JOIN TableA AS t2
  ON t1.GUID = t2.ParentGuid
  [... the stuff posted before]
INNER JOIN TableA AS t3
  ON t1.GUID = t3.ParentGuid
  [... the stuff posted before]
It's even joining the same thin'
Argh nvm, i'm back to my semihell
 
11:46 AM
wait a sec
never mind
 
@Squirrelintraining what's the issue with your sql?
to lazy to scroll up
 
It's from a cray cray person
 
I lied
I scrolled up
is your select not returning anything at all?
 
In a diffent palce there are left joins which aren't renuning any data (nulls only)
 
so what's the problemo
other than a crazy person wrote it
I wrote a 3k+ sql procedure once
does that make me cray cray?
 
11:50 AM
@Squirrelintraining t3 join predicate is different. Will include (a=false and b=false) as well as (a=true and b=true), (a=false and b=true) only (a=true, b=false) is excluded... I think , yeah head pain LOL
 
my brain hurts
working on sql for too long is not gud
 
@Squirrelintraining A select * would cause trouble in that specific SQL because of repeated column names, consider select t1.*, t2.GUID as GUID_t2, ...
 
No it excludes (a=true and b=true)
 
@CaptainSquirrel aye
especially if its incoreated into c# like hits:
DatabaseContext.ExecuteCommand(@"
WHAT THE HELL IS THIS BALDY FORMATTED NOT COMMENTED SQL COMMAND DOING {0} @p1HERE", ALLOT OF PARAMETERS);
@HollyStyles Head pain only real pain in my life atm
 
11:57 AM
Aswell I've found one part where in theory it's possible to execuite sql injection vs our db
"parameterize user input" my ass
 
there's a not-so-obvious type of injection involving changing character encoding
 
@Neil I've heard of that before.
 
the idea is that you provide a seemingly unrecognizeable characters, but they correspond to like "; drop table etc.." after encoding switches back
 

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