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4:50 AM
@KarlKnechtel You probably shouldn't have a policy that involves actively subverting the rules and intended usage of a Q&A site.
If you want to offer an interactive programming course, be my guest, but find a platform designed for that, because this ain't it.
@KarlKnechtel Yes, confusion about how the site is supposed to work is widespread. :-)
 
5:04 AM
Some, in my experience, even willfully disregard what they know to be the case about how the site is supposed to work because of idiosyncratic personal obsessions, like a fixation over the amount of "effort" that the asker put in, a misconstruction of their own role as a teacher/educator/tutor, and so on.
 
5:22 AM
@KarlKnechtel What you're supposed to do is post an answer to the question. In that answer, you can explain how it's related to another similar problem, and even include a link to that Q&A. Thus, you avoid repeating too much (although you must still give a simple, self-contained, direct answer to the question), but can still "connect the dots", referencing the other Q&A.
They'll show up in the "Linked questions" list in the sidebar for both questions, which can also be enumerated using the normal search tools for any given question.
In other words, what you need to do is learn to stop worrying and love some duplication. If they're exact duplicates, you close them. If they're only similar or overlapping, then you need to answer them and connect the dots, but leave breadcrumbs to enable yourself and future researchers to find the other related Q&A.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:31 AM
I thought SO wanted to be a knowledge repository? Or was that just my imagination? If the goal is just Q&A, that certainly explains the low quality of... everything
 
7:42 AM
Knowledge repository is correct... via Q&A.
It's not a tutorial service, though, so working through questions in the comments with someone is not an appropriate use of the site.
 
I can absolutely see why people would do that, though. Most questions we get aren't knowledge repository material, but the community still accepts them instead of closing them. So why play by the rules when nobody else does?
 
7:57 AM
@Aran-Fey I missed the earlier discussion, but I've used this KD Tree & it seems to work well: docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/generated/…
I use it to find the nearest colour in a palette. The colours are in LUV space, so the components are floats, with the U & V components possibly negative.
 
Wow, that documentation took me way too long to understand
 
@Aran-Fey What does "knowledge repository material" mean? I feel like you might be interpreting "knowledge repository" as having a minimum difficulty bar, but it doesn't.
If questions are unsuitable, then, yes, they should be closed. Whether other people "play by the rules" is totally irrelevant to your individual actions/choices.
 
Not difficulty, usefulness. For instance, if the question is "Why doesn't my tkinter calculator work", how is anyone else going to benefit from the "knowledge" in the answers?
 
Ah, "debug my code" questions. Yeah, those are definitely the least useful types of questions that we get here. I have no idea why people actively seek to encourage those at the expense of other types (e.g., by demanding that "how-to" questions show an "attempt" [i.e., wrong code that needs to be debugged and will necessarily be highly specific to a single individual's ill-informed attempt]).
They're on-topic because we are inclusive of the "long tail".
 
8:12 AM
@Aran-Fey I admit I had to read it several times. Unfortunately, scipy docs tend to be like that. But the KD Tree stuff is actually not that hard to use, after you've played with it a bit.
 
It's science; it's supposed to be hard, I guess.
Or at least that's how far too many authors seem to feel...
 
@CodyGray It's irrelevant as long as it's a small minority, but arguably we're at (or rather, past) the point where SO has become a sinking ship. IMO there is so much trash on here, and so much new trash coming in, that trying to clean it up is wasted effort. The reality is that SO has become a help desk
 
"If you're smart enough to need this stuff, you're probably smart enough to understand these docs".
 
@Aran-Fey I don't follow. There's no maximum number of questions. The ship doesn't sink just because there are too many less-than-useful questions asked or answered.
It doesn't "become" a help desk. It either is or it isn't.
 
What makes the ship sink are all the low-quality questions that show up on google and pollute your search results. How many SO questions do you click on before you find a useful one?
 
8:19 AM
If that's true, Python has "become" a terrible language because there is so much terrible code written in it every day.
@Aran-Fey Generally no more than 2.
>50% odds I'll find the answer I'm looking for on the very first question I open when doing a Google site search.
 
Answers to "debug my code" questions can be useful to others if they illustrate & explain principles & techniques that are more generally applicable. But the code / task in the question needs to be of sufficient quality. It has to serve as a typical example of the stuff the answer is explaining. If you have a brilliant answer, but you have to illustrate it with a crappy question, that's less likely to benefit future readers.
 
Anecdotally, when looking for actual help, I almost never come across any posts that need moderating. I can count on one hand the number I've pulled up a Q&A when looking for an answer and needed to close the question, delete the question, or even delete an answer (unless it was maybe a brand-new NAA that still had some pending flags; that happens once in a while).
I do often delete old, obsolete comments, or those that should have never been left in the first place (like please accept my answer kind of things), but meh, that's not really turning us into a garbage dump.
Whether this reflects the fact that I'm much better than the average user at searching, or the fact that the C, C++, assembly, and/or Linux-related tags on SO tend to have higher-than-average quality, I couldn't say.
 
Yes, there's a ton of dreck in the Python tag. But take a look at JavaScript sometime. Admittedly, some of the JS problems are due to the pace that the environment evolves, and stuff like jQuery. OTOH, that kinda simplifies things: if a JS answer is more than a few years old, it's likely to contain at least some things that are now obsolete, or at least not considered good practice these days.
 
I can't tell the difference between good JS and bad JS content.
 
It probably also has to do with the topics you need help with. Experienced programmers tend to ask better questions, and difficult topics tend to have fewer duplicates than common questions. I've lost count of how many times I thought "there has to be a duplicate for this question", but I couldn't find (a good) one among all the junk
 
8:28 AM
That's almost never happened to me.
I get quite frustrated with the fact that experienced programmers don't close things they think are low-quality as duplicates, but instead close them for other reasons. Why didn't you just take the few seconds to go look for the duplicate?! How can you criticize other people for being lazy when you are just as lazy yourself?
I close a large number of questions as duplicates, and it only happens once in a great while where I "know" there must be a duplicate out there but can't find it. And it only happens in languages that I don't really know, where presumably I am just not using the correct keywords.
I don't know if it's because people just haven't discovered that the only way to search is by using Google site search?
 
yeah, I honestly don't know why more people don't close as duplicates, for most common things it takes at most a couple minutes, usually done within half
most of my close votes are via dupes
 
And, if you have a gold badge (like so many of these people do), it closes instantly.
 
Maybe they think there are already enough duplicates of this question, no need for another one?
 
There's no indirection via "unclear" or "needs focus", when what is really unclear or needs focus is why the several dozen existing Q&A didn't solve the problem.
@Aran-Fey That would be an argument against asking it (which wasn't their decision), not an argument against closing it as a duplicate.
 
though that's not to say I haven't made mistakes before, but that's usually due to how the question is phrased (like this recent one)
 
8:33 AM
If it's closed as unclear or something then it eventually gets deleted by the roomba, no?
 
Not necessarily
And closing decisions shouldn't be based on what the roomba does.
 
One of the best things is when you dupe-close a question and the OP enthusiastically thanks you for find them such an excellent answer. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
 
While we are still on the topic of moderation, some answers really are just bad and should be nuked imo, like this one that I flagged but got denied - there's literally no citation on why that is
 
A large number of duplicates doesn't actually cause any problems, as long as they're all closed as duplicates. The only thing it does is irritate people who worry about non-problems.
 
also did not actually address the question when the question hints at Windows, which isn't chromebook
but eh
 
8:35 AM
@metatoaster You flagged it as "not an answer". It attempts to answer the question, so the flag was invalid. It says that the problem happens on a ChromeBook, and that there is no good workaround, save from the obvious implied one: use a different computer. Now, that may well be wrong, but moderators don't delete answers because they are wrong, certainly not in response to NAA flags.
 
@CodyGray I disagree with that. There aren't nearly enough people who bother fixing/cleaning up old questions. The roomba is the MVP in that regard. And too many duplicates of the same question is a problem - nobody wants to get 10 google results that all point to the same place
 
I can guarantee you that the moderator who handled the NAA flag did not go up and read the question, note the name "win32crypt" in the stack trace, decide the asker is probably using Windows, and evaluate the answer in that regard. If you wanted that to happen, you'd have needed to use a custom flag.
 
right, but honestly is that answer even suitable for the site?
 
Why not?
In the abstract, if a problem only occurred in one specific context, and there was no known workaround for it, wouldn't that be a useful answer to have to a question about that problem?
 
well, without actual citation on something like that it basically allows SO to collect hearsays as answers
I did try to find a citation of some kind, there just isn't one
there is literally nothing stopping Chromebooks from using those packages as they are open source and things can be compiled for that platform
 
8:40 AM
@metatoaster Stack Overflow has no citation requirement. Not sure where you got that idea? All answers are "hearsay". In particular, they are anecdotal.
@metatoaster That would be an argument as to why the answer is wrong. (I also think it must be.) A user would be expected to post that kind of counter-argument underneath the answer as a comment, and, optionally, use that as a basis for downvoting the answer as wrong/useless.
 
Fine.
Really though, the contention is that StackOverflow feels too much like a sinking ship with more and more cruft that really should be pruned
though that said, same thing could be said of Python the language when certain fundamental things can be hard to get right, like imports...
 
If it's about imports, then python has been sinking for a looooong time xD
 
The community can deal with bad content. Mods can't be expected to make judgements on the technical merits of an answer. But if the answer is blatantly not an answer, or it's written so badly that it's virtually incomprehensible, then mods can kill it.
 
@metatoaster Largely, that's because there's not enough downvoting.
 
Yeah, I can only downvote once.
 
8:45 AM
heh
It's a major limitation, I admit. :-)
But, the thing is, the rose-colored glasses are misleading. Since the beginning of Stack Overflow, there have been many answers posted to questions that were absolutely crap. In fact, I'd wager you saw a much higher percentage of answers like the one you linked in the early days than you do now.
And considering that there are more answers posted now than back then, that means that the ratio of quality to non-quality has gone up. That's an accomplishment.
 
As for imports, like this one from today... which should be solved by properly packing the software, but I am too tired of these to bother moderating them
 
SO's saving grace is that answers only have to be useful, not good
 
I supposed, heh
 
I mean, yeah, because "good" can't be defined in an objective or meaningful way. Other than, you know, "was helpful to someone" and "is readable".
 
My point is that there are a lot of answers that a newbie would upvote but an export would downvote
 
9:01 AM
@Aran-Fey That's a far worse problem on the non-programming sites. At least with coding related stuff it's (usually) possible to test it.
 
I think the worst one is code golf, have you seen the code there? It's awful :D
 
I don't really see a split between what a newbie would consider quality or useful and what an expert would.
 
Even in a language as simple as Python, that's quite possible
For a really cheap example - you should use context managers for handling files. Plenty of useful answers wouldn't do that. Is it incorrect not to? Not really, but it goes against established practice. Pile 10 of these kind of things into an answer and you'll still have something working, just completely different to anything an expert would write in practice
In other words, not writing idiomatic code could be seen as harmful IMO, because 9 times out of 10 the newbie is just going to cargo cult it
I think every emotion about SO is just amplified for the python tag because we have 16% of all questions being thrown at us and so many of the askers are being manipulated by media to tell them that they could be the next AI genius if they just pay £1200 £30 for this simple course
Time to clean up the star board
It seems I can't clear stuff that doesn't fit on my 13" screen :( Time to fire up ol' faithful
 
9:23 AM
Wow, pay-to-win
 
@roganjosh This so much. The amount of hidden footguns is crazy. Works in principle for just a narrow case (so gets an upvote by inexperienced people) but is a liability for in general.
Case in point: most advise on sys.path. Sure you can muck around with the innards of the import machinery…
 
It's amazing that the entire python community has failed to produce a comprehensive guide to imports for decades now
 
mostly because it isn't actually rigorously defined/constrained
 
Well don't look to me to write it :D
 
@Aran-Fey I'm decently sure it has. You just have to find it.
I've stopped writing them after seeing them drowned in cargo.
 
9:31 AM
@roganjosh Not writing it is time efficient. I tried my hand at it and failed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
It's just... pointless answering these questions or curating them.
 
the issue with Python imports is that user writes simple scripts, imports work, and then suddenly it doesn't
because they changed directories, idk
as Python doesn't force people to make well-formed packages which helps with ensuring imports work
 
@Aran-Fey At least you were bold enough to try! I just hand-wave my way through if I'm explaining anything to a colleague
Maybe drop in the odd "obviously" to make them know that I know what I'm talking about and it's they that are confused
 
9:46 AM
@Aran-Fey They're reduced the top rate price from the ridiculous £1000+ but it's still the same if you search "udemy data science" (links are too long) or this
 
Oh, I meant you have to pay for a large monitor
 
Nah, just fire up the monstrous 17" laptop
 
 
1 hour later…
11:15 AM
don't know if you knew this already, but found this: visualtk.com you might find that interesting, maybe? @Kevin
it really put things into perspective for me at least, especially for handling certain dimensions shenanigans for my buttons
I found it because of this post: softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/32612/…
nvm, I think it's not in english...pygubu seems to be the better option
 
11:46 AM
"I wonder where Kevin goes to ponder?" The Ponderosa.
 
best one I found so far: sourceforge.net/projects/page works better compared to the other ones I mentioned IMO
 
> using the Place Geometry Manager.
throw it in the bin
 
although, it's a bit unintuitive when it comes to exporting your code, because you have to click, in order, the "Generate support module" and "Generate python gui" buttons.
if you do it in reverse order, thinking "it must be in the order that it is displayed" then it kind of does not work? at least I think it didn't in the other order...
@Aran-Fey yeah, I guess it would be better if you could switch to grid or pack but I guess it is what it is. Works for me in any cases :P
 
12:43 PM
I still say y'all need to move to HTML. No stress there. Absolutely none.
The thing I like best is its consistency
 
What framework do you use? React?
 
Nah, I found it confusing. I'm also struggling to keep a straight face to find something else to praise it for :P
Almost nothing is consistent in the slightest
 
Svelte?
 
Even brits have limits to their sarcasm levels
Just flask, AJAX and raw JS
 
@roganjosh That's sarcasm, right? :P
 
12:48 PM
Ahh, the old double bluff. You've met me before, sir!
I can see the utility in the JS frameworks, it just seems too much of a faff to get everything integrated with the backend when I need to move fast most of the time. Probably I'd be better backing it with node but then people would moan because it's not python/R
One of the HNQs gave me a laugh before (on mobile atm). "In R booleans can have 3 different values"... I feel justified in my stance at work to outright refuse to learn the language. But introduce something that isn't R/Python? That's pitchfork fodder
Sorry, pitchtorch
 
Agreed, R seems weird
 
1:50 PM
@roganjosh 20% off today! Get your personal pitchtorch now!
 
2:10 PM
ZOMG, finally I can take a pitchtorch to the R programmers. I'll take 3
 
 
6 hours later…
8:17 PM
@CodyGray Unfortunately, this happens frequently for me. And then sometimes when I do find something, I also find evidence that a huge forest of questions have not been appropriately closed. And then sometimes while I am looking for duplicates, I find several things that superficially look like a dupe target, but which then turn out to be themselves duplicates of totally different things.
which is actually how I ended up making the PCD room in the first place: because I fell into rabbit holes that pointed out multiple canonicals were either missing or in terrible shape.
of note: stackoverflow.com/questions/4362586/… complete garbage question even now, and look through the revision history; it was originally even worse - much worse. And that has over two million views and a couple dozen dupes, plus an answer from me from a decade ago when I was "young" and naive.
 
Wow, straight up 2 different questions in one
 
@Aran-Fey personally, I only care about open questions as a metric. And Stack Overflow has way too many of them.
@Aran-Fey that's after figuring out what the guy was even on about (stackoverflow.com/revisions/4362586/1)
 
Definitely deserved the 4k rep he got from that question
 
the question even got Community protection at some point for some reason
everything about the reputation system is broken beyond belief.
it's amazing we have anything resembling a community like this chat room after all that.
 
8:56 PM
@KarlKnechtel PCD room?
 

python-canon-discussion

THIS ROOM IS NOT FOR PYTHON HELP. You want the main Python room:
 
9:12 PM
Yes, that.
 
@NordineLotfi thanks for the link!
@KarlKnechtel I'm a pretty good duplicate finder and corpus researcher. I'll be reading and possibly participating when I feel I have something to contribute.
 
Appreciated
my next big project on that score, personally, will probably be trying to edit a bunch of stuff on the sopython canon wiki.
 
@KarlKnechtel that's a scary wiki due to sheer size. I don't have 20k here so editing wikis isn't a priority for me (having to submit a suggestion on something so sizeable is a pain). But I feel the wiki is overall amazingly good.
 
many of the things I find most useful are not in it, and in many cases I have found that it offers links to non-canonicals.
 
My priority would be having some established members lending authority when a canonical (that's been in bad shape for years) needs an overhaul and one guy doing it alone might not be well understood.
E.g. I've been curating the PyCharm tag for about 2 years (daily closures and lots of edits). The most revelant posts about installing and using libraries are confusing, need some clean-up, and probably a pristine community-wiki among the answers.
 
9:31 PM
Hey guys, hope you're all having a good weekend! :)
 
@bad_coder I don't use an IDE and know essentially nothing of PyCharm, but please feel free to contribute specifics in my room. There is no particular organizational structure at the moment.
 
@nico considering it's Saturday and I'm stuck writing code it's not all bad.
@KarlKnechtel really?! One on of those mythical Python devs that don't use an IDE? Truly amazing... I think Chepner also said he only uses Vi or Emacs...
Back to the code, I'll see you in PCD o/
 
9:50 PM
o_O Python is the number one language where I would expect people not to use IDEs.
 
IDE make work simple and fast, i guess in infra a person dont use IDE that much, just text editor or vi only
 
"in infra"?
 
@KarlKnechtel in infrastructure* I think is what they meant
@KarlKnechtel btw, I don't really make a distinction between editor and IDE (I do know the "official" difference though) but what do you use then?
 
I use gVim for serious stuff, and xed for not serious stuff
 
10:05 PM
ah, that's nice. I use gvim myself too, although I never heard nor tried xed before
 
in instrastructure, i used to work in french cloud company there most of people use to work with vi
 
I don't rely on any particular integration; I don't need my tools to streamline that much of the actual work of producing the code (text), because thinking is the bottleneck.
Most of my projects are tools for manipulating binary data and/or doing format conversions.
xed is essentially linux's notepad
(at least for some distros)
 
@sahasrara62 yeah, I guess it kind of became a popular choice, maybe because knowing vi/vim/emacs is considered by some as "productivity" incarnate, or a sign of such at least
 
@CodyGray I don't think I inhabit the same universe.
 
@KarlKnechtel I see, I guess it's like Geany? Saw mentions of gedit somewhere, so would make sense
 
10:08 PM
probably. I'm pretty sure it's X as in X11
 
@NordineLotfi yeah maybe, but for me for small script it's ok but for large projects a big NO
ever tried KATE ? it's better compare to gedit
 
@KarlKnechtel oh, gotcha. Does it have autocompletion or just plain editor? I'm trying to find a Geany replacement for when I want to hop to a less-configurable editor.
closest I found was Thonny but it kind of crash depending on my usecases
 
but yeah. I actively hate it when editors try to auto-balance parens etc. for me, and if auto-completion is useful it feels like a code smell
 
yes it does autocomplete the already wriiten words kate-editor.org
truth to speak i hate vs code
 
(xed has bracket balancing and word-completion features; I turned them off)
 
10:13 PM
@sahasrara62 nice, never tried it because I always stayed away from KDE.
 
@NordineLotfi you can try it , works in mac/window/linux
 
@KarlKnechtel I feel like most things that have autocomplete for python have at least one bug or missing features. Pycharm miss a lot of stuff when it autocomplete methods, decorators, etc. Same for pretty much everything else. I think Jedi also sometimes doesn't work for certain things.
 
@NordineLotfi mm. my vim config needs some kind of tweak, too, I guess: it keeps wrongly re-indenting the current line of code when I type out a dict literal
 
I admit I can work without autocomplete, but sometimes when prototyping or trying to find what something has (eg: available functions, etc) I like to use autocomplete a lot. But I don't like when autocomplete work using heuristic/neural network. Just want simple completion based on python local files/import
 
@KarlKnechtel i mean what help does a writing a package to know variable name provide ?
 
10:18 PM
@KarlKnechtel I don't think I ever saw you on vi.se now that I think about it. I spent time there for quite a bit asking vimscript related questions. Maybe you might be interested? ;)
 
I haven't been there, because nothing has really bothered me enough to make me ask
 
I see. Fair enough :)
@sahasrara62 I think I probably might have one or two usecases for that, at least I once did before. One thing you can use that for is if you want to use variable as string argument, so that you don't need to quote them when passing them to a function
so for example, function_test(string_without_quotes)
 
@NordineLotfi using logger and mentioning function name would be better ?
 
yeah, but that's if you already know that logger can do that.
 
idk if it is suitable, but seems like a waste of time in early stage of any project, just like type hints where time is more important than writing this
 
10:52 PM
Is using a top level file as the config for a project (e.g. settings.py like is common with django projects) a bad idea?
 
Thanks for the pointer, haven't seen it done like that before.
 
11:07 PM
@0x263A having different settings for different environment and keeping setting related to apps and global one different is a god way to manage everything
 

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