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00:24
No worries. If you want the background to be transparent (i.e., the default color), just set "background": "";.
 
7 hours later…
07:12
Hi there. Not really a Pythonn question, but I'll try to sneak it in because it's about building a docker image with pythons 3.8 through 3.11rc1 installed. Has anyone here succeeded in making multi-architecture docker images with buildx? Since I went M1 I can only produce arm64 images, which Circle CI can't use!
07:27
blog.jaimyn.dev/… does this help? you might have done this already, but you need to enable experimental features apparently?
Thanks, I started there some time ago but it's way out of date (possibly why the graphics are broken links) - buildx is now part of the Docker release, but the documentation ... leaves something to be desired, and some features that were experimental when the blog was written are now standard so the whole area is crying our for clarity.
07:45
ah i see
i assume there's always the hammer, running a vm should probably let you do anything
(just guessing)
Turns out, re-reading it, the tl;dr at the end showed me what I was doing wrong (or, rather, what I hadn't done). So thanks again!
It's extended the build time somewhat, however - building for the first time I have to compile and install five different versions of Python. Twice! Once in emulation mode!!
Arm64 build is almost finished, amd64 still has 2.5 Pythons to go ... :(
@holdenweb why not use pyenv? or maybe there a reason you want it under different CPU architecture
08:00
I want a docker environment that allows a developer to mount local software onto the docker virtual and process it with one or more of the available Pythons. I could do this with tox or pyenv or similar, but that assumes smarts on the part of the tester, so I'm trying to create an appliance for it.
I see, that explain it :)
This means it needs to be a cross-platform docker build if it's to be useful to most of the developer community. And it's entirely possible I'll lose interest halfway through, but I've learned a lot!
Wow, the build that takes ~6 minutes for arm is now on 20 minutes and still going strong. Having said which, I'm sometimes amazed that systems of this complexity hang together at all.
yeah, same. That reminds me of something else, bedrock linux. I think it probably uses the same trick (I think? just a gut feeling) as Docker to compile/run under different CPU arch.
it basically use qemu transparently, so one can use arm binaries under x86 without running a full VM (for example)
@ParitoshSingh you guessed right to be honest, on the blog you linked This allows you to build a Docker Image for a variety of different CPU architectures and it uses QEMU under the hood to do the emulation. Seems like it already is a VM, technically :D
08:59
:D Build still running after 75 minutes, maxing out 1 CPU ... this is beginning to look like a no-hoper!
Lots of swapping on this 16GB Macbook. Might try it on the 32GB one later just for giggles.
I'm a bit confused about what this is about. Is it for having pre-built docker images like binaries targeted for different architectures? I kind of naively assumed that docker images were just built for your architecture when you pull them
At present I'm just fascinated to see how long this will take.
Now maxing out 4 CPUs. I wish I'd never looked!
More generally, I don't think I have a good grasp on the difference between a docker image and a VM itself. It frustrated me so much at work that I didn't bother exploring the technology... turns out that's because we didn't use any docker caching at all. I've since pushed to get that fixed and my builds have gone from 45 minutes to < 5 so I'm starting to appreciate it a bit more
@roganjosh Surely the word "pull" clues you in to the fact that they already exist somewhere? Sure, if you start with Dockerfies you can always build them locally, but there's always a FROM basis load, which does need to match your architecture.
What I think I failed to appreciate is that someone is doing a lot of legwork behind that FROM
09:06
That has to be pulled from a repo, so if I want my appliance to be useful I should make an Intel/amd version available, not just arm64 (or so my thinking went).
Docker image vs VM is "just" about the levels of separation. With docker, we rely on the host OS to maintain separation between the environments. With VMs there's actual hardware protections between them. Docker compose lets you build little networks of docker processes, which you can then run on VMs. It is all a bit head-twisting to start with, but you soon get used to it.
@roganjosh Right. The OS platforms are at the base, but there are many systems on offer in the Docker hub, and you can use any image as the starting point for another one!
It's turtles all the way down!
Hahaha. Indeed! I know that base images can go stale. If you want a panic attack - set Snyk off on a Python 3.6 image. ALL of the memory hack alerts. However, it's interesting that the base image takes this amount of manual intervention to support all the architectures. In my fanciful brain, Docker handled all that and the originator didn't have to do it
I just went and dug up the alert. This was the top of something like 600 issues thrown up for a single docker image
09:23
Well, now I've got docker buildx running it seems to - build still running after 5600+ seconds, so the jury's still out. But it is at least on to building 3.11 now, so there's that. I can't remember whether I told it to --push or not, which is a bit tedious.
@roganjosh It's amazing the inefficiencies we put up with simply because we know no better.
Then again, there's a fine line between investing development effort to get your productivity up and obsessively automating everything to the point where there's no time left to get actual work done.
I'm assuming people will find a use for multipython, but i've done no user research. At present it's just to get CI working again on a package.
When I found out we don't use caching I went a little off the rails. Unfamiliarity with the tech made me just assume it was intrinsic to Docker that we had ridiculous amounts of dead time. It was costing us hundreds of hours a week just sitting and waiting for these builds. More annoying was that a fix could be implemented in 2 weeks and we'd been living with it for 4 years
Oh well, it's fixed now. ShinyProxy is in the crosshairs currently
09:56
oh dear haha. i guess better late than never? :P
in terms of vm vs docker, i just know vm == heavy, docker == lighter. that's about it. (well, that and vm needs hypervisor, docker containers themselves don't need to know about that layer even if non linux builds use one)
10:48
Would ya believe it, the very last step (build 3.11.0rc1) fell over. Rats!
Oops: "No space left on device" while installing ctypes. What a PITA.
 
2 hours later…
13:10
@roganjosh yeah, I find it surprising a lot of company don't use caching in their compiling setup. I understand when it's by design, but if some of them know it can speed things up, or whatever other reasons, it's a bit weird. When you compile huge project like browsers such as google-chrome and the like, caching help a ton
 
7 hours later…
20:36
cabbage
20:51
cbg
pretty lonely in here when it's weekends
 
2 hours later…
23:21
Tonight I lament songs that start out with a great tune and then ruin themselves, like To Give a Marionette Life and Splash :(
23:43
@Aran-Fey I believe I know what you're describing, it's even more obvious in your second link. It annoys me too. The song starts by building a feeling inside you, then the harmonic progression goes awry and it destroys everything it built.
Dream Theater, the band, are guilty of it. They start their tracks with the most insane riff, then it evolves into something ridiculous. example
I can see what you mean. 10 minutes worth of music wasted...
Hahaa, exactly. They're one of my favorite bands, but boy do they make it hard for me

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