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3:39 AM
@roganjosh We have some questions about the sound of boiling water on Physics.SE, eg physics.stackexchange.com/q/375243/123208 And this one discusses how reboiling water is quieter, since it's already been degassed. physics.stackexchange.com/q/46655/123208
When cooking pasta, I often add a tiny bit of olive oil to the water before throwing in the pasta. The oil raises the pitch of the boiling sound.
 
 
12 hours later…
3:49 PM
(I am currently learning python, sorry, I am not yet really proficient).
 
4:10 PM
yesterday, by Aran-Fey
Explaining the structure of your data is all fine and dandy, but showing some sample data would also help a great deal
Being new to python is no excuse not to learn how to ask for help
If you have a specific pandas problem bring an MCVE
It should take about six lines of code
 
@AndrasDeak honestly, Iam not sure how to upload my code/ data here. I know it sounds stupid, I'd really like to share the code and data, but I don't know how.
 
Don't share your code and data. Share your short but representative runnable example. Post it to a code paste site, or directly in chat if it's short enough. But your MCVE has to be short.
See also our rules sopython.com/pages/chatroom
> If your code is longer than about 12 lines, use an external paste tool such as dpaste.com.
For posting directly in chat here's our code formatting guide sopython.com/wiki/… . You can practice in the sandbox.
 
4:41 PM
@AndrasDeak does this give a clearer picture?
 
@Baobab no, it gives me a NameError
@Baobab Come back with an MCVE
 
5:40 PM
Hi folks. I'm kind of confused.
I just posted a question and it already has a downvote. Could someone here explain so I can improve my question?
-2
Q: Triangular Billiards with Machine Learning

rb3652Question: How can I use Machine Learning to predict the right initial conditions (P0,V0) that will create periodic paths in a triangular billiard table (no pockets, no friction, no spin, etc.)? Context: Hey folks. I’m tackling a problem known as the Triangle Billiards Problem — and I was hoping t...

 
@rb3652 it's too broad
 
I don't know ML, but seeing how there is absolutely no code in that question, it seems like a "please write this for me, kthxbye" kind of thing
 
Totally not what I wanted to go for. How can I improve? I don't have an existing ML model, but I do have the code for my simulation.
Should I include that code?
In other words, I'm just looking for suggestions.
 
"Ihave this great idea for a story. How do I use writing to tell it?"
 
@AndrasDeak OK, now I see the problem.
 
5:52 PM
It's not a well-scoped programming question.
 
Hmm, I see.
In an effort to repent, I have deleted the question.
But I'm still open to suggestions!
 
You probably can't make it suitable for Stack Overflow. There are other sites in the network that might allow ML related questions, but I suspect this would be too broad there too. Something so open-ended is more suitable for chat (either here or in the chatrooms of the respective sites on chat.stackexchange.com), but even then there's a high chance that nobody will be able to help you.
 
I think you didn't need to delete it. Mods would close it or delete it. It still had some value, so if mods would decide to close it then it would stay on site "as-is".

I think you didn't do anything "bad", it is just that SO have very strict rules and additionally some mods are toxic.

Now it may be difficult to give suggestions if somebody didn't see your question ;)
(I made backup of this question for myself because I found it and comments interesting.)
 
@KarolZlot no, it had no value, it was only gathering downvotes. And it wouldn't be "mods" who delete it.
and please don't start this "SO is toxic" thing here
 
Yeah, not deleting it would only lead to a question ban faster
 
6:05 PM
@AndrasDeak At least for me it had value ;)
 
excellent
 
@rb3652 I wonder: maybe "evolutionary algorithm" is something what could help you
 
6:23 PM
@KarolZlot Thanks for the idea (and support!).
I'm wondering, however, how an ML would evolve to predict periodic paths. What kind of a loss function would it be minimizing there? I think that's the key question.
 
If you haven't done any ML things in this direction, shouldn't you first worry about any kind of path?
I know your question is about looking for periodic paths
 
Right, periodic paths.
 
You have a 4 (or 2) dimensional space: you need to store the position and velocity of your ball at wall hits. It's actually sort of 2d: one length parameter along your triangle, and one angular variable for the velocity.
If I'm handwaving this correctly, periodic paths will have a finite number of points in this phase space, whereas non-periodic paths will have infinitely many. But floating-point errors can mess this up in practice.
 
$(P_0,V_0)$, exactly.
 
But once you visit a phase point you've already visited before you know you have a periodic path.
 
6:29 PM
Precisely.
 
As a terrible worst approximation you could set a cut-off for number of unique points that you consider worth chasing. If a path doesn't become periodic until then, consider it aperiodic. That can give you a measure I guess.
If there's scientific literature for the problem it might tell you how periodic paths behave. It's possible there are theorems that constrain the potential number of phase points. I wouldn't dare to guess.
 
It seems, then, you are proposing something like ...
 
That figure seems completely orthogonal to what I'm talking about
unless the colour coding means something interesting
 
One second, let me think about this.
 
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the problem were chaotic. In which case (although I must emphasise that I have no idea about machine learning) you're probably out of luck.
@rb3652 that helps
 
6:35 PM
@AndrasDeak As far as I've read in the literature, a path in a triangular table is either: periodic or covers the entire board.
That's it.
@AndrasDeak When you say "completely orthogonal to what I'm talking about", could you clarify a bit?
By the way, that phase space diagram I made is extremely optimistic. That would be my best wishes, but I am overconfident this will not be the case.
 
@rb3652 I can't imagine any other alternative, to be honest. Hmm, OK, I guess paths could be dense on some subset of the board. But the claim doesn't surprise me too much.
@rb3652 sure. What I'm talking about is how to decide if a given starting point in the phase space is periodic. Potentially trying to classify paths of a given length. Maybe. What you showed is presumably a set of starting phase points with, as you said, a highly optimistic classification scheme.
If I had to I'd bet the problem is chaotic, so if you move ever so slightly off from a periodic path you get to an aperiodic state. That doesn't strike me as something that's suitable for ML classificaiton. But as I said I don't know anything about machine learning so you need not worry on my account.
 
6:50 PM
My guess is that it's chaotic, like the classic logistic map
 
So you get nice period behaviour for some parameter intervals, but in the tricky part, it's a chaotic fractal.
I guess ML could find a pattern to the periodic parameters. But generally, finding those patterns (eg in Mandelbrot & Julia sets) is done by careful analysis, not a mindless brute-force search.
 
...involving single-precision numbers
 
In fact, Mandelbrot found his set while trying to classifyvJulia sets. The M set is the boundary in the complex plane separating the Julia sets that are connected (parameter inside the M set) from the Julia sets that are fractal dusts.
Right. Double precision doesn't help too much, either. A standard double / Python float has 53 bits in the mantissa. So if you lose 1 bit of precision per bounce of the billiard ball, then after 53 bounces, your numbers are rubbish.
Now, the same thing applies to M sets. You can make pretty pictures of them with floats, but if you want to zoom in more than 50 or so times, you have to use higher precision arithmetic, so the rendering speed plummets.
 
7:12 PM
"careful analysis, not a mindless brute-force search" -- unfortunately, I'm unable to do the former, and bent on doing the latter.
 
you can at least start with less-mindless approaches, for instance checking initial velocities that are parallel to the triangle sides
Until you have some understanding of how periodic trajectories relate to one another, you're looking for infinitely many needles in an infinitely large haystack.
Odds are the problem already has someone having spent three decades working on it.
 
Hey, on the plus side, if we live in a discrete universe then only periodic paths exist.
 
If we live in a discreet can we still wonder about continuous mathematics? Discuss.
(No, don't discuss, I value my sanity.)
 
@AndrasDeak Hm, thank you for the suggestion. I'll think about it as I work on the problem.
 
7:30 PM
Hmm, does a discrete universe limit the size or the quantity of things? For example, in a discrete universe there must a shortest unit, like the Planck length for space. But is the total quantity of Planck lengths in the universe limited, or can space theoretically still be infinitely wide?
 
Oh no
 
On 2nd thought, size and quantity probably weren't the right words. It's more like size vs resolution
 
@Aran-Fey Sure, it doesn't matter if the universe is finite in extent or not, spacetime might be quantized in either case. Currently, nobody's figured out how to quantize spacetime without breaking the Lorentz transformation of special relativity.
 
Does it matter if space is finite if its boundary expands with the speed of light?
@PM2Ring the blockchain should fix that
 
So when we refer to a "discrete universe", we mean a quantized one, not a finite one. Correct?
 
7:38 PM
yup
discrete as in not continuous
 
Ok, thanks
 
discrete stuff are often still countably infinite
But your confusion is reasonable because finite things are also discreet.
 
This answer has some nice info & diagrams on the expansion of space, and the various cosmological horizons. physics.stackexchange.com/a/401181/123208
 
@AndrasDeak Doesn't that depend on what exactly is finite? For example, in a universe where only numbers between 0 and 1 exist, the size of numbers is finite. But if irrational numbers exist in this universe, then the quantity of numbers is infinite
 
We have a few questions on Physics.SE about whether spacetime is discrete, but the answers don't have a lot of info. They mostly just say "we don't know". ;)
 
7:45 PM
@Aran-Fey well, whatever you are saying is finite, is discrete. Whether "a finite universe" makes sense as a concept is a different matter.
and don't get me started on "universe where [...] numbers exist", it's a weekend :P
 
Heh, do numbers exist? ;P
 
Arguably, no - they're just ideas that describe things that do
 
I'm sure PM knows a name for the old "is mathematics invented or discovered?" debate
 
8:04 PM
Another fun question is whether existence is discrete. Can something half-exist?
 
Hold on now, what does "exist" mean?
 
Good question :D
 
8:26 PM
Conway's Game of Life is discrete, but may take place on an infinite grid. And it's Turing complete, if that sways your opinion about whether it counts as a universe
 
Doesn't Turing completeness already assume infinite memory?
trigger warning: obvious lack of formal CS training
 
Yeah, although implementations tend to instead use a very very large amount of memory. Cheapskates!
 
In other news, I can now confirm that not-yet-boiling water does indeed make a sound
This observation has drastically increased the odds that we all live in the same universe
 
 
1 hour later…
9:47 PM
@Aran-Fey How can I observe it myself?
 
The sound? By boiling water and listening if it starts making a sound before it boils
 
A sound could come when you pour normal water to heated metal bowl, but I assume that's the sound of the metal.
 
Hi folks, I have a really basic problem that's left me dumbfounded.
I calculate the angle between two vectors, and it works alright. (Refactoring my billiards simulation)
 
@Aran-Fey It does but maybe because it boils only in a bit before it's full volume boiling. After all it is heated from one surface, so some places will be hotter, some colder. I wonder.
 
10:02 PM
Then I do it again, but with the angle > 180:
As you can see, the programming language returns the smallest angle between the two vectors, but I do not want this. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can fix this?
If I use the dot product, I will still get the smallest angle.
Actually, I think I got it. Cross Product.
 
@rb3652 it gives you the correct angle between the two vectors, for the record
this is an XY problem but I'm glad you've fixed it
 
You can also calculate the angle of each vector (to some reference vector, like the x axis) and then just subtract them
 
from previous history I'm certain they don't really need that angle
 
 
1 hour later…
11:28 PM
TIL they've finally pulled out the contents of collections.abc from collections (it had been deprecated since 3.3) docs.python.org/3.10/library/collections.html vs docs.python.org/3.9/library/collections.html
 
They constantly break stuff, but when you report a bug it's all "sorry, can't fix it because of backwards compat" :|
 
can't they just not "fix" it until Python 4?
 
[cant-fix] [wont-fix] [leave-me-alone-will-you] [what-are-you-doing-in-my-house]
4
@metatoaster not with current promises
 
lol, but yeah, collections.abc is one of those tiny cuts that killed my interests in Python, since they set this as a precedence
 
but you probably know that
 
11:33 PM
yeah, Python 4 will never happen
 
or if it will it'll just be another release
unless it'll be typethon :P
 
but mucking that much with core import namespaces between minor releases, even if documented, makes it difficult to put confidence in the language itself
 
I thought this would be a perennial deprecation, in which case it would be alright-ish
 
I don't really understand the reluctance to make a python 4 when they constantly make backwards-incompatible changes anyway
 
I'm pretty sure it's mostly (valid) fear of psychological factors
"oh no, python 4 with some breaking changes, I'm not upgrading from 3.4"
 
11:35 PM
I supposed with collections.abc being documented as deprecated since 3.0, but eh they should have pulled that bandage long ago along with the urllib/urlparse namespace import changes back in the days
 
"my developers want to use this 'python' that's out with a new breaking major version again"
 
@AndrasDeak well, static-typed python is certainly going to be something
@AndrasDeak nodejs does this all the time lol
 
you're exempt from sane behaviour if you have js in the name
 
they being very willing to admit this, is the only sane thing they have
though they've broken other things between minor releases soooooo
 
I wonder what version we'd be at if Python followed semver...
 
11:39 PM
Depends on how strict you are about it. The changes to the (internals of the) import system around 3.4 alone can probably account for 15 versions if you want
 
presumably they wouldn't release more often than originally
so we wouldn't be higher than the cummulative sum of micro version bumps, and probably even fewer versions if there's a deterring factor of bumping major versions with breaking changes
At least I don't think semver implies "if you change anything, release". I thought it just means when you release, you must update the version accordingly.
We might be getting back to "what does it mean to 'exist'" territory so I'll just hit the hay instead :P
 
Yeah, good idea. Rbrb
 
rbrb
 

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