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6:35 AM
Hello i'm trying to incorporate testing into my code using pytest to speed up adding functionality to my code without having to worry about bugs but when I look at my code it feels like I have to re-structure the whole thing to make the testing fit. Is there guidelines for doing this?
 
Have you heard of mocking? That might help reduce the amount of refactoring you have to do
 
Nope not yet but will check it out
Been restructuring my code several times over the past few months and I feel i'm wasting lots of time
 
I know that feel. Sometimes you just have projects where you keep discovering new problems, so endless refactoring it is
 
Yeah and it's not like functionality was added it does the same thing
But I guess it's necessary i've hit a point where i'm taking a long time to add features and I think it's more efficient to restructure
 
7:06 AM
cbg
 
8:00 AM
cbg
 
8:20 AM
@Pherdindy There are some coding patterns that help in such situations, such as dependency inversion. Often enough code that is hard to tests has some real design problems.
 
very related question actually... how do i make procedural code testing friendly? say, if there's like 10 steps that happen one after another
So if it's like one big function with a lot of steps. one initial thought is to make one big function that runs all the 10 steps, and each step is a function on its own. this makes the 10 steps testable, that sounds like a reasonable approach?
 
yep
 
8:36 AM
cool, thanks
 
8:55 AM
also sounds like a test which might end up not being all that useful. If your test code just duplicates your source code, you're essentially just testing that your interpreter works correctly, i.e. "if I execute these 10 lines of code, will the same 10 lines of code actually be executed?"
my current employer has a "everything needs a test" rule, and as a consequence we have a ton of whitebox tests which, imo, only make our pipeline slower and development even more of a chore.
to finish my argument, I personally feel like your test should only ever test against the interface of your function/class/module, and if you need to look at the code in order to write your test then you're setting yourself up for a sub-optimal long term experience
 
@Arne that's a tricky thing to get right. But totally agree, that sometimes one finds themselves not writing useful tests, but just duplicating the source code to some extent
 
@Hakaishin absolutely is, and I've written a good number of atrocious tests to confirm that to myself
hmm, I think I'll try to come up with an example to illustrate my point. now that I read it back it all sounds a bit abstract
 
9:12 AM
I just read paritoshs comment about no gil python, is this gonna be a thing? That could be quite some innovation
 
It plops up every odd year or so, maybe this time it'll work. The one before that was lwn.net/Articles/754577 I think.
 
This one seems to have buy-in from the core devs
 
"He also would rather not write his own GC." :D
"Deprecate the threading API (who even uses threads in Python in the face of the GIL?)", excuse me... I would say a lot of people right?
 
Threads are darn good for concurrency.
I'm really looking forward to see the GIL gone, but many people just overestimate the benefits of parallelism primitives.
 
agreed
The comments in the article have some nice examples of useful multithreaded code despite the GIL
 
9:28 AM
what makes this no-gil implementation different, is that this is the first attempt that shows promise even after dissection from core devs, and still seems to promise not to sacrifice single threaded performance noticably
@Arne darn, this is actually a painfully good point.
how then do i test code that's literally "do this, then do this, then do this, then do this". if trying to form a mental model for it, think of a fixed data processing pipeline, that never needs variation.
its basically tightly coupled to the input data, so it's guaranteed it's going to be these same steps till the end of time, or till the input data's layout changes
 
Hard to say without understanding the application. What I'm doing right now is to try to come up with a reasonable number of high-level tests (one for simple apps, ~8 for complex ones) that will run into most of my hard-to-write-good-unittests-code and just leave it at that. The assertion statements mostly just make sure that the code executed without crashing.
This may or may not be a good fit for your situation. Oh, and I try to not mock anything, except external resources / the file system. I guess I'm describing a smoke test, if that word means something to you.
"If I only make sure that nothing crashes, how can I know that my program is not in a bad state?" -> write your code in a way that it crashes when it's in a bad state.
I hope I'm not coming off as too much of a know-it-all, I'm also still learning and updating my approach to code every day. And I tend to sound curt, even when I don't mean to.
 
9:46 AM
no not at all, this is super useful thanks.
 
Slightly related, if I have a code that does 10 steps, what is the best thing I can do in the event an intermediate step fails? I just exit the code after logging?
 
if its a critical step that fails, definitely
if you have the ability to recover from it, and the desire to, then it depends
 
try:
    step_1()
    step_x()
except Exception as e:
    # log e
something like this is what I imagine, but seems wrong
 
In general if you don't know what to do, it's better to fail hard than limp on with inconsistent state.
 
ah, the "godmode" try except block question.
 
9:51 AM
Remember that your program doesn't magically become correct just because of hiding a failure.
 
currently, i dont have a wrapper of try except around my application, i dont see the point. if it crashes and burns, i get the error message anyways.
i dont know what the industry recommends for this though
odd, i know i have wondered about it at some point, but i cant for the life of me recall what the conclusion was.
 
yeah, both of you make sense, a retry logic or just fail, if it makes sense, this is something that will run on a scheduled time
 
@Arne I really like this here mate
 
@ParitoshSingh if there is dupe for this, can you point me?
 
@python_user oh that's just a term i invented on the spot. sorry haha. if you find a dupe for this, please let me know too :P
 
9:56 AM
I can think of 4 scenarios where it's ok to catch an exception:
1) You're doing something before re-raising the exception
2) The exception doesn't matter
3) You can fix it and retry
4) You're displaying the error message to the user
If you aren't doing any of these things in your `except` block, you're doing something wrong
 
In summary - if you can't/won't be able to do something with an exception - just let it propagate so something else might...
 
generally, what option is favoured: a big try except around the whole app, log and reraise, vs no try except block, let it error out organically?
 
thanks for asking :p
 
haha np. as i said, im confident i've gone through this question before with myself, but i dont recall how i ended up resolving it. I want to say the latter feels more right, but maybe there were some..*exceptions* to that that i've since then forgotten about
 
I've never done any logging myself, but surely if you're logging, then an exception that caused your whole program to crash is worth logging?
 
10:04 AM
oh! that rings a bell
i know what i did
... i hijacked the sys excepthook to log anything i missed.. uhm yeah maybe im not the best guy to take advice on for best practices.
 
Since my programs usually run via another service (systemd, puppet, condor, ...) logging fatal errors isn't the responsibility of the application.
 
^ this is an important point too
 
Using Python's inbuilt error printing is more robust in that case. Logging can be misconfigured.
 
both of these are new to me, thanks guys
 
@MisterMiyagi ugh, condor
 
10:08 AM
no matter what route you take, just dont swallow the error accidentally. that's the worst possible outcome
 
one of my biggest "fear" in writing code that is just supposed to run periodically is in dealing with crashes
 
@AndrasDeak I hope that SLURM will go away if I just pretend it does not exist.
 
and if reraising, make sure you preserve information. (it's probably best to just reraise without trying to warp the exception in any manner, let it go up as is)
 
@MisterMiyagi slurm >> condor, at least to me as an end-user
but I just submit stuff and hope they run
 
Some of the time I do too. :P
 
10:10 AM
@python_user one alternative that nobody has mentioned before is writing bug-free code
 
Heresy!
 
thats.. genius!
 
well, some of my code depends on 3rd party api, so I have to account for 5xx
right now I just do docs.python-requests.org/en/latest/api/… and call it a day :/
 
when you account for something you no longer need fear anything
 
@AndrasDeak I've been pretty frustrated using slurm for HTC tasks. "Run this thing 10k times" was a lot more painful than I expected. I'm... still not entirely sure whether we did it right. 🤷‍♂️
 
10:12 AM
@python_user (ps. bugfree code is essentially impossible. that was intended as a joke...or was it!) X files theme starts playing
 
@MisterMiyagi "did it right" as end-users, or admins?
 
@AndrasDeak For slurm I'm 100% end user. 🎉
 
@ParitoshSingh I've written bug-free hello worlds before
@MisterMiyagi neat. To be fair I don't use array jobs or whatevers, always a single (MPI) one at a time. Nothing fancy. If I needed 10k reruns, I'd rerun them myself :D
 
laurel, well bug free as long as I step on the next bug
 
[Narrator: He hasn't.]
 
10:14 AM
heh
 
such power...
 
Those aren't bugs, those are future learning opportunities.
 
and everyone knows that future you's problems are not your own
 
10:41 AM
@AndrasDeak good ol' SEP :p
 
temporarily :P
 
Does anyone know of libraries for pooling SSH connections during remote command execution? Preferably async.
 
You mean instead of 10 ssh host command to open a single connection and execute everything?
 
We've sped up our application a lot by using multiplexing/sessions in asyncssh, but there is usually an upper limit to the sessions per connection. So I'm one step away of writing my own connection pool combining connections and sessions. I would rather not do that myself.
@AndrasDeak Sort of. Instead of 11 ssh host command opening two connections and 11 sessions.
 
Why not make 11 the new maximum and make that 10?
 
10:50 AM
10 is the limit of sessions per connection set by those pesky admins. :/ *hides admin hat*
 
I don't even know what a session is in SSH terms so it's fine
 
11:23 AM
@Arne two example tests. I'm not even putting up straw-men here, I'd wager that ~half of all tests in our main-application's test suite look like the "bad" example. Code that just calls a bunch of functions and has a vague interface just isn't well-unit-testable.
@ParitoshSingh glad to hear =)
 
@MisterMiyagi I see this topic is definitely something I need to look into. Was not sure exactly what I needed before but this along with testing is what I was looking for I hope.
 
@Arne that's the majority of code everywhere I'd say :P
 
12:21 PM
Umm.. use['Features'].apply(pd.Series).explode('APIFeatureData')['APIFeatureData'].apply(pd.Series) - seems horribly hacky but seems to work :p
 
Electrical theory question. Long hallways often have a light switch on both ends, and toggling either one toggles the light. This is done using two three way switches. Is it possible to get this same behavior using extension cords and/or surge protectors?
 
Would you like advice from someone who takes a few moments to remember how to re-wire a plug? :p
 
I don't know how to re-wire a plug at all, so you're the one eyed king in my land of the blind
 
Okay... so I'll take a punt at "yes - it's possible" - exercise left for the reader... :p
 
hmm js doesn't have str2bool... I call scam
 
12:32 PM
I think you can use graph theory to come to a solid conclusion even if you don't have any real world wiring experience
 
@Hakaishin let me guess: because strings are already bools
@Kevin I don't think I understand the question
 
@Hakaishin Isn't JS the str2whatevercouldworkrightnow language anyway?
 
^
js is like a great parent
"you can be anything you want!"
 
@MisterMiyagi yes, it's just that I kinda hoped there would be some progress in the years I didn't use it. But seems that the progress was, don't use js but whatever library was built on top of it
 
"use ts"
 
12:40 PM
not just library, the progress says use TS
oops, beaten
 
yeah ts is alright, but then again it's not as simple to setup, not integrated in the browser etc etc
ofc for a proper frontend you would use ts, but for small things it seems like too much of a hassle to set up
 
if languages other than js were integrated in browser, i am quite confident js wouldnt be as big as it is
 
Perhaps a real-world use case is in order. My bedroom is lit by a lamp that plugs into a wall outlet. It is within arm's reach of my bed, which sits in the corner of the room furthest from the door. In the morning I wake up, turn on my lamp, and get ready for the day. Then I turn off the lamp and stumble blindly across the entire length of my room to reach the door. This is less than ideal.
 
but that ship has probably sailed a while back
 
@Kevin modern solution is a smart plug :P
 
12:43 PM
@Kevin this made me chuckle :)
 
I will allow the plug to be as smart as two XOR gates
Any more than that and facebook will put a rootkit in it
 
just start using candles
 
@ParitoshSingh Please let it be WASM. Please let it be WASM. Please let it be WASM.
 
If there's a power plug next to your door you can pull an extension cord from that to the lamp. You plug in/turn on the extension cord when you enter the room, then fine-tune with the lamp switch.
 
Yeah as I suspected I have to compile the ts to js, meh. Not exciting to avoid having to do status === "true"
 
12:44 PM
@MisterMiyagi yeah, it very well might be. wasm doesnt talk to dom directly though, probably it's biggest hurdle
(as far as i understand)
 
I could also leave the room with the light on, but this wastes electricity. I could have two serially-connected on/off switches, with one near the door and one near my bed, but if I stupidly leave the door switch set to "off" when I return to my room, I won't be able to turn on the light while I'm sitting in bed
 
so you end up still using js indirectly, anddd taking a performance hit for dom related tasks. thats not ideal.
 
This may occur if I return to my room during daylight hours, when natural illumination suffices for navigation, and then night falls while I'm occupied with something
 
(the other issue is wasm handling of strings. but eh, i dont care about that as much personally, as long as the languages targetting wasm can sort it out)
is it an option to have a single light with 2 switches for your bed kevin?
 
I don't see why not. Where can I buy one?
This is a rare graph problem where "they sell those at home depot" is a valid solution
 
12:47 PM
our house already has these, they're built in. so its more so the internal wiring of the house that supports it
 
@Kevin there's nothing that stops you from using three-way switches to control a power outlet instead of a lamp
 
@ParitoshSingh that's the 3-way switch his initial query linked
that's what he's trying to emulate with a not-a-3-way-switch
 
Buying a three way switch would help, wouldn't it?
 
morning cabbages, folks
 
@MisterMiyagi buying and building into the walls?
he'd need two 3-way switches with a power cable in between
 
12:50 PM
Going behind my drywall to rewire things is in my "maybe" bin, but it's about 100 times harder than plugging in a Home Depot brand magic doubleswitch, so I wish to explore that possibility first
 
wait kevin, hadnt you built a ghetto contraption for this very problem already? (forgive me for not reading up if you already mentioned it), didnt you have something that involved tape
 
Practical solution: Buy a radio-controlled lamp instead.
 
that's almost a smart plug
 
@ParitoshSingh necro posting, but industry recommends to put your application in a try except and let the except generate a log/automatically send you the log if somehow possible. Because customers don't get the message, they get clicking the button that says send error log back. And test the heck out of that code, so that you never error while trying to send your error log back to you :D
 
@ParitoshSingh haha. Yes, I built a pulley system that could flip a switch from a distance. But my most advanced prototype would come undone after one use, so it's a bit impractical.
 
12:52 PM
@AndrasDeak I'm all for smart solutions.
 
Kevin is not
 
smart plug and smart bulb are both valid solutions in this case. If you're worried about your lights getting hacked by internet dudez, get the bluetooth bulbs. Affix an older phone/tablet to your walls (one by the bed, and one by the door) to simultaneously control the smart lighting. Beware of the implications of dual-connecting bluetooth, not all smart lighting devices may support this (I'm unsure)
 
something about facebook
 
I have a couple of tapo (tp-link) smart plugs. The downside is that you need a tapo account to use them, but if you cut off the internet for the smart plugs then they'll still authenticate with your phone if your phone has internet...
none of my smart devices are accessible outside the LAN
 
im thinking something super diy, say an extension cord with a 3 way switch
 
12:54 PM
An extension cord with a 3 way switch is 100% the idea I had in mind before I asked. Where can I buy one?
 
i am fairly confident such a thing wont exist on the shelf, sorry :P
 
you'd need an extension cord with two 3-way switches on either end
you'd want neutral to go through, and line to be broken by the two 3-way switches
 
This raises the question: are 3 way extension cords nonexistent because there's no consumer demand, or because it's really easy to electrocute yourself with one via some failure mode I haven't thought of?
 
youre probably right, i dont have the electrical backing to understand how any of this stuff works. i just call it "magic" and flick the switch and get on with my day
 
@Kevin I bet it's the former
 
12:56 PM
Ugh consumers are so boring in their desires
 
there are extension cords with switches on them already
plus the reason you need an extension cord is because you don't want to fiddle on the other end of the wire
but IANAEE
 
@AndrasDeak lol
 
ooh
ive just come up with another potentially silly idea
well no nvm. you probably actually want this problem solved in both directions, not one, right?
ie both youre in room, and then leaving, as well as youre entering room
 
Depending on what "solved in both directions" means, we might have already done that with the "two switches in serial" design
 
(otherwise, we could have just made your switch have a delay in turning off, and voila)
 
1:05 PM
For additional difficulty, consider use case 2: Alice and Bob share a bunk bed with one lamp. In the morning, Alice wakes up, turns on the lamp, walks to the door, and turns off the lamp. An hour later, Bob does the same. If the bedside switch and doorside switch are serially connected, the lamp will remain off when Bob wakes up and flips the bedside switch.
One potential solution is for Alice to leave the room while shouting "goodbye Bob, I'm leaving the light on, feel free to turn it off on your own", but this seems unsustainable
 
Since you can't be bothered to remember switching on at the door, this is not additional difficulty
both are solved by a pair of 3-way switches, as you'd known from the get-go
 
I'm currently browsing Amazon for lamps controllable via IR remote. Those at least are harder for Facebook to rootkit because they can't talk to my wifi.
My personal data will remain safely within the remote's secret local storage, until the Facebook privacy van comes by my house and beams the data over via shortwave radio
 
ooh! get a clapper!
 
Hmm compelling
 
1:26 PM
Is there a good way to set entry_points just for testing?
 
1:38 PM
Perhaps you could use setuptools.pypa.io/en/latest/userguide/…. Rough design: create a module MiyagiTest which does nothing. In the entry_points collection for your real module, add [MiyagiTest] to the end of the entry point you want to toggle. Now you can control the accessibility of your module's shell command by installing or uninstalling MiyagiTest.
As I have just learned about entry points ten minutes ago, there's a good chance I've misunderstood the requirements. Don't feel bad telling me that I'm not even close.
Even if I understood the question, I'm not completely enthused at the idea of programmatically executing a pip install/uninstall command in the setup/teardown of an automated test
 
@Kevin you would not like our installation script, which does a bunch of git shenanigens :D
including auto force stuff for dozens of git repos :D
 
@Kevin Your suggestion is similar to what I'm doing right now: installing a test entry point with the library itself. I'm not completely enthused at that idea either. :P
 
I begrudgingly accept that the messy reality of automated installation sometimes requires one to commit atrocities. Sometimes even git commit them.
 
@Kevin automated git commit is crossing the fine line between braveness and madness.
 
2:02 PM
Yeah I'm pretty sure it's banned by the geneva convention
 
2:34 PM
GNU pass autocommits changes but that's only technically relevant
 
Cabbage to all!
 
heya Paul!
 
@PaulMcG howdy!
I like the new display picture... :)
 
It goes along with my robot theme. Not that Robby the Robot actually got to carry Anne Francis in the movie.
 
I have a setup.py file that includes:
install_requires=[
  'pretty_midi >= 0.2.8'
],
 
2:42 PM
cd -
 
but after running python setup.py install and getting no error, pretty_midi is not installed -- does anyone know how that could be?
 
oop! this ain't my terminal
 
At least you didn't enter :q!
 
hahaha
 
or say oh yeaaaaaah
 
2:47 PM
@duhaime Is this the first time you've executed the setup.py? I suspect this would be a no-op if your module is already installed
 
I thought that too so I pip uninstalled before running the setup.py install command
 
@PaulMcG cbg!
 
I've been delving into Python basics for the book - thought I'd share a little tidbit for your Python obfuscation pleasure: "·" is a valid identifier body character, so _·_·_ = 100 is valid Python. (It's not a valid leading character, so you couldn't write something like ·.·. _·._· could be legal though.)
 
@duhaime Welp, that was the 1 idea I had
 
ya, same
 
2:51 PM
and if you run pip install -e . instead?
or rather, python -m pip install -e .
 
@PaulMcG looks like some weird version of morse code :p
 
@PaulMcG I was very confused for a minute because I thought that's a . character haha
 
@duhaime How do you check whether it's installed or not?
 
I was using pip freeze to determine if the module installed. It looks like python -m pip install -e . did the trick. Why would that be? I'm in a conda environment
 
Hmm, I did hear something about the command-line interface of setuptools being deprecated, but surely it should still work as of now?
 
2:55 PM
I just saw a blog post recently about "don't do python setup.py directly any more".
 
Got a link? I'm interested
 
what does the -e flag in pip install do?
 
oh, -e stands for editable
 
TL;DR: Do pip install instead of python setup.py install
 
2:58 PM
Some parts are already disabled. python setup.py upload has been replaced by twine. I still use python setup.py bdist_wheel and sdist (to build PyPI uploadables), but the blog post says to use build now.
 
> when you make a PR or a comment in a slack channel, you can link to this Proustian monstrosity and hope that your audience pales before the prospect of reading through the whole thing and just assents to whatever you're asking them to do.
This man understands his audience
4
 
Loved that post!
Wait, 4 months ago? Either my perception of time is skewed or someone reposted that recently
 
It definitely circulated recently (and got way more upvotes in the recent go-round)
 
3:15 PM
@duhaime that means probably that the install talked to the wrong python interpreter, or was done in a way that your conda env couldn't find it. so basically this evergreen of a problem.
 
What confuses me is the fact that I've been installing python modules in conda environments for years just like I did today without issue...
 
3:33 PM
conda = ticking timebomb
 
@duhaime ah yes, internet inflation
 
3:54 PM
wow I just hit the strangest bug ever, language selection changes calculations related to the display of information. Wth
@Arne I totally forgot to add that one to my python course. It fits so perfectly. One girl had a literally haunted pc with suuuuuper weird installation paths of everything. I told here to use the computers of the university, because fixing her laptop would have taken half the course time
 
@Hakaishin decimal comma vs dot
 
Reminds me of how C#'s Convert.ToDouble("12345,6789") can return either 123456789 or 12345.6789 depending on your locale settings
 
@AndrasDeak wow your crystal ball is on point once again. Thanks :) I thought it's too late for such a weird bug, but with this info it's a simple fix(I hope)
 
Strike at the root of evil, refactor your entire logic pipeline so it doesn't unnecessarily serialize numbers as strings
 
@Kevin ahhh... like the fun I had with Shopify the other day... where giving it "1.234" as a price ends up the price being "1234.00"... while giving it "1.23" ends up the price being 1.23...
 
4:06 PM
Nightmare world
 
@JonClements wow
@Kevin I now hope, nothing relies on this weird "feature"
 
Ooo... might have to watch britbox.co.uk/programme/… later... haven't seen that in ages
 
@JonClements 403
 
oh... probably UK only then
 
ah what has happened to the internet :(
I get paywalls, but country only websites...
 
4:11 PM
It is a paid for service as well.. but I imagine they're only allowed UK stuff because of licencing or something...
(plus the clue's probably in the name "britbox"...)
 
Looks cool, didn't know it was a show
@Kevin my numbers actually are already numbers, the problem still occurs though
 
well... started off as a radio show, then books, then a tv series, then later on the film, and then some more radio series...
 
interesting, I only read one book
{% localize off %}
{{ my_floatvar }}
{% endlocalize %}
Is this the intended solution? That seems kinda wrong, but oh well
 
4:38 PM
i18n is the most stupid acronym I have come accross
all the xNumberY acronyms are silly
 
5:07 PM
I'm not a huge fan either
 
@PaulMcG Finally managed to get through this. Nice and informative read! *lights a candle for every packaging maintainer*
 
only you can stop wildfires
 
No pressure!
 
5:31 PM
Does anyone know a general-purpose video downloader module that isn't youtube-dl? That thing is such a mess, I hate touching it
 
 
1 hour later…
user12867493
6:33 PM
Why does this code give an error?
 
user12867493
class Car:
    # Class variable
    manufacturer = 'BMW'

    def __init__(self, model, price):
        # instance variable
        self.model = model
        self.price = price
    def add(self):
        self.price = self.price + 1
# create Object
car = Car('x1', 2500)
car2 = car.add()
print(car2.price)
 
user12867493
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'price'
 
Because car2 = car.add() doesn't return an instance, it operates on the original instance and returns None to car2 =
 
6:51 PM
@Xnero In python, x = y.z() means x will have the value of whatever is returned by z(), here car2 = car.add() will have return value of add(), which is None since you are not explicitly returning anything. You might need to use print(car.price)
 
And apart from the above - why is manufacturer a class level attribute? I'm fairly sure that's not what you want...
 
Wow, you got ahead of yourself there. You can't write classes before you understand how functions and the return statement work
 
Feels like this is a forced move. Like most people these days in a tutorial or SO answer, will tell that OOP is better and to study it. Most beginners will blindly start learning these without having proper knowledge in functions and scopes.
 
Am I right in thinking that you wrote a wrapper library for inspecting function signatures, Aran?
Or something along those lines (my terminology might be off for what it was actually doing)
 
I'm pretty sure "what it was actually doing" is driving Aran-Fey further into insanity
 
6:56 PM
I have indeed written a library that can do that and much more, why do you ask?
 
It's just popped into my head quite randomly, given the prompting material, that there was some stuff in there that I wanted to follow up a bit more in understanding but it totally slipped my mind
 
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