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9:51 AM
cbg guys
 
10:31 AM
which server architectures do you know? for example mvc, microservices, what else?
 
Oh my, exams make me nervous
 
@Aran-Fey :O Madness. I commit daily
 
10:49 AM
In the last 6 months or so, I've made a big effort to switch the library I maintain over to issue-driven commits and I'm pretty shocked at how much I've come to appreciate it. It wouldn't make so much sense when I was building the initial framework but now every new feature, or almost all minor fixes, have an associated issue. It took a little while to adapt to it
Part of that probably comes from the fact that I used to work almost entirely in isolation before. But I'm sure Andras and other room regulars will remember how confusing and terrifying I used to find git
 
11:27 AM
Psychologist: the git kraken is not real
 
Mostly true, except for git-gate early on the year when I tried to do everything through IntelliJ and got so flustered with buttons that... stuff... happened. We still don't know how many good lines of code were lost forever in that incident
But I did as I was told (from you) from then on, and do it through the command line now :)
 
Nah, just learn to use intellij interface, it needs some getting used to, but it's much faster once you learn it than the command line
Also what do I need to google to get the answer to: how long is my fingerprint password? I think I'm missing keywords
 
What's a "fingerprint password"?
 
I can unlock my phone with my fingertip, so it acts as a password, I wonder how long it is, how many bits does a fingertip contain
 
@Hakaishin part of it was that I'm on a 13" screen and there were so many panels all over the place with buttons to click that I couldn't properly read, plus I didn't really know what I was doing in the first place
 
11:35 AM
@roganjosh xD Sounds like a bad reason to give up on it completely. I'd give it another shot
 
@Hakaishin That is a pretty meaningless question... But have you tried Googling? security.stackexchange.com/questions/144428/…
 
I fix conflicts in Python through VSCode, which is more manageable, but I initiate from the command line
 
@CodyGray why is it meaningless? It sounds straightforward.
 
Fingerprints don't have "bits".
They don't work like traditional passwords, so you cannot compare them. It is like comparing apples and oranges.
 
If there are 2 different fingerprints in the whole world, then it has 1 bit. So I see a straightforward way to define how many bits the fingerprint sensors have.
 
11:41 AM
@CodyGray oranges are better
 
It doesn't work by comparing the input fingerprint to a database of all the other fingerprints in the world, so, no, even if there were only 2 distinct fingerprints in the whole world, then it wouldn't be sensible to say it has only 1 bit.
@AndrasDeak Can't make hard cider from oranges. QED.
 
@CodyGray ofc it doesn't. It compares against what you stored, like with a password. but like with random guessing a pw the length matters, with fingerprints the number of distinct fingerprints matters. It's sounds all very analogous no?
 
No
 
@CodyGray each bend larger than 30 degrees contributes 0.3 bits of entropy
 
Because you can't randomly guess fingerprints.
 
11:43 AM
ofc you can, just build some thing which does it
 
@AndrasDeak :-)
Fingerprint passwords work by approximation.
 
Why can't you randomly guess a fingerprint? The sensor must have a finite precision in how it can read ridges, which must be stored in binary somehow?
 
@roganjosh thank you :)
 
Does any of you actually know how fingerprint scanners work?
asking for a friend
 
A fingerprint-based authentication system isn't working with deterministic or exact data.
Yes
 
11:44 AM
The thing is, I doubt there's a standardized way to digitally save a fingerprint. Each company likely has its own approach. So the "bitness" of your fingerprint will vary
 
They read "minutiae" patterns of the print.
 
you just made that up right now
 
@CodyGray so it has infinite entropy? It must be limited
 
Haha
 
@Aran-Fey That's fine, I don't want the precise value, I'm more interested in a ballpark estimate
 
11:45 AM
It's more like 1 bit of entropy
@Hakaishin Sounds like an X-Y problem.
 
@AndrasDeak No but I imagine it takes some data when you input your finger and then when you authenticate it takes the same data with the sensor again and it matches against what is stored, I would like to know how much bits the data it takes is
@CodyGray I don't have a problem, it's just a question that popped into my head seconds after unlocking my phone :P
 
As I suspected: the root of the problem sounds like "boredom"
 
@CodyGray what a downer, it's called "curiosity" :)
 
I think it's an interesting question. I don't think any of us are in the habit of dismissing curiosity? It's not like we're being hammered with Python questions on a Sunday, or that certain people in the room raise such questions almost daily
 
It's just not something that can be reasonably answered
At best, if you were going to pursue this, you would need to name a specific type of fingerprint scanner (there are several types), and a specific algorithm used to process the data.
Then, you might be able to arrive at an approximation of the rough number of bits of entropy.
 
11:50 AM
Sure, which is probably decent advice to get Hakaishin started
 
such a lack of imagination
 
These authors estimate 40-82 bits.
 
so first you tell me the question is senseless, then it can't be answered, then you later proceed to give me a rough draft of how it can :D
 
Sorry, they told me I'm not supposed to say that a question is "dumb", so I have to instead say that it cannot be answered and/or makes no sense. :-)
 
while shortly there after giving an answer to the question lol :D
Nice way to answer an unanswerable question. Don't know why you got so hostile. Anyways nice find, that's pretty much what I was after, to satisfy my "problem" of curiosity :P what did you google to find that?
 
11:53 AM
"Hostile"?
 
Call the mods!
Uh oh
 
xD
 
It's almost as bad as when the ROs get hostile
 
Anyways 40-80 is a surprisingly high amount. Pretty cool how convenient it is and how much entropy it has
ROs?
 
Room owners
 
11:54 AM
haha
 
Anyway... that's why the question is bad. Because attempting to assign an entropy value in bits makes you think that biometric passwords like fingerprints can be somehow compared to known secrets.
And worse, conclude that they are somehow equal to or more secure.
Which is very, very wrong.
Incidentally, here's another paper: citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/…
 
Does the amount of bits give me an estimate how hard it would be to randomly guess the fingerprint?
 
Not in my opinion
 
why?
 
I think it's misleading
 
11:58 AM
huh, 8.3 length pw. Well it's much less but still enough
 
That was 2013, though, so the density of measurements has probably increased since then. In any case, that paper appears to give a decent basis to understand the technology
 
@CodyGray but the paper you linked just pretty exactly answered my question :) I might read it some later time, but it's sunny outside. but thanks for the finds. I guess I should google for entropy fingerprints and password comparison. Or something like that
 
Sunny weather seems ideal for reading. It's harder to see the page when it's overcast, and the paper gets wet when it's raining.
 
I'm going 🏓
 
I do think that a better question to ask would be "How many unique fingerprints can this software handle?". Counting the number of bits is fundamentally flawed because each additional bit doubles the possibilities, making it unlikely that every possible combination of bits is valid. For example, you need 4 bits to represent 5 different fingerprints, but you could represent a total of 8
 
12:03 PM
@Hakaishin What a coincidence, I like white-square-boxing, too!
 
@CodyGray you disabled emojis somehow?
 
Hah! I wish!
No, that's just how my computer renders that.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:05 PM
The number of times I almost installed asyncstdlib is steadily going up. I always seem to find a different way to achieve my goal at the last minute
 
MisterMiyagi would like to have a word with you :p
 
2:29 PM
... Sometimes What Heart Know, Head Forget.
 
2:58 PM
@Aran-Fey Just give in to the temptation. There's only so many times writing async enumerate is "fun".
 
Huh, you use that a lot? I don't think I've ever needed that
What I almost needed today was nullcontext btw
 
3:34 PM
@Aran-Fey In the beginning. Traded many cases for islice instead now.
It's usually always easy enough to work around or implement yourself. I just got fed up doing that again and again. :P
 
By the way, thanks to you questioning my (non-)use of async context managers, I figured out that my design was stupid, so thanks for that
My interface used to be like this:
class Download:
    async def connect()
    async def read_chunk()
    async def disconnect()
Then I realized async generators are a thing, so now it's just
class Download:
    async def gimme_a_chunk_iterator()
 
Hi,

I'm asked to find the integral using the trapezoid rule but the instructions have me quite confused.
For trapezoid(d, h) the d is described as array of data points evaluated at even spacing h, and h = spacing between data points.
I don't get what d and h are.. as in is d an array of x values (eg from x1--> x10) and if n is the number of stripes/trapeziums we take then what is h?
 
What would you need x values for? You need y values, not x values
 
so is d just an array of y values? and n is the number of trapeziums we take? and h is the actual height?
 
3:49 PM
I have no idea what n is, but the only thing that makes sense is that d is a series of y values, calculated at points that are h apart (on the x axis, that is)
That makes a series of trapezoids with a width of h
 
I think I get where you're going but I don't see how this can be used in a general sense.
 
Consider this graph. Your inputs would be d=[f(a), f(b)], h=b-a.
 
Seems weird to call that a "height", but I think your crystal ball is in working order
 
@Aran-Fey I think that makes sense. Thank you so much!
@CodyGray I always get this confused but the height is usually x2-x1 right?
 
That seems like "domain" to me, but I'm not much of a math guy
 
3:58 PM
@CodyGray You mean h? That's the height of the trapezoid, so it makes sense
 
Oh, I see. Had to look it up. I did not remember the name "trapezoid rule", although the concept is familiar to me. Calculus was a long time ago. :-)
 
4:18 PM
@CodyGray ... in a galaxy far, far away? :p
 
Just about every rule got broken there, so I don't think we should use it as an example
It's hard to pinpoint the moment where my brain exploded in the last 3 films. I mean, it definitely happened, but I don't know exactly when
 
Spaceballs was much better :p
 
 
3 hours later…
6:58 PM
I'm working on a super implementation that lets you invoke setters and deleters like super().attr = 5 and del super().attr. Have I gone mad with power?
Trick question, the moment I went mad with power was at least 5 years ago
 
Good evening fellas!
 
@Aran-Fey yes, because deleting attributes is weird
 
I'm kinda new to classes, and refactoring a big file.. Should I worry about scopes for changing object variables? I mean: from what I seen, whenever I change an object's variable value, wherever it is on the file, it will be saved. Am I right? Is there something I should know? (currently debugging an error for a few hours already)
 
I mean, if the property doesn't have a deleter it'll crash anyway. I'm just implementing the descriptor protocol, that's all
 
I"m doing stuff like invoking a method for an object from inside a method in another object etc
 
7:08 PM
@lupus I'm not sure what you mean, could you demonstrate with a short example? Having a hard time understanding what scopes have to do with object variables
 
I don't even understand any of "whenever I change an object's variable value, wherever it is on the file, it will be saved"
 
cbg everyone. Does anybody knows the purpose of operator.itemgetter? I know what it does, but why is there a specific function for it? What is the real advantage over a plain lambda?
 
I'm sorry my vocab is so poor. Let's imagine I have an object with a self.variable initialized as = 10. Let's say I run object.variable = 20. This will change the value of that variable for that object to 20, right? Is there any case on a single python file where I could run that command, and later on find out that the value for that object was NOT changed for some possible reason I don't know about (that's why I mentioned scope) ??
 
Any pytorch developers at the audience by chance? :)
 
@DaniMesejo Honestly, there aren't many reasons to use it over a lambda. Although it can be useful if you need to retrieve multiple items, like itemgetter('foo', 'bar')
 
7:15 PM
I think it can be marginally faster than a lambda, so if you use it as a key for a huge sort or something it might matter a bit (just a bit)
 
@lupus Well, if your object has a property named variable, then that property's setter can do whatever it want with your value of 20. It could theoretically choose to throw the 20 away without updating the value of the attribute. But that's extremely far-fetched
class FarFetched:
    @property
    def attr(self):
        return 5

    @attr.setter
    def attr(self, value):
        pass  # Who cares?
^ That would be extremely dumb
 
@lupus "and later on find out that the value for that object was NOT changed for some possible reason" well yeah, this happens all the time
 
Someone, somewhere: "hold my beer"
 
Thank you both. @Aran-Fey @AndrasDeak I think itemgetter would be even more useful if it had something like a default optional argument for specifying a value in case the item is not present
 
@roganjosh Wait, it does? How? Why? When?
 
7:21 PM
I have a Config() object that gives you a bunch of URLs but the default (localhost) doesn't make sense any more because we got the central stack running
 
My best guesses:
1) You made a typo in the variable name
2) You set it on the wrong object
 
Nothing monitors that the default local=True constraint was changed
 
I don't really get your scenario but I'm barely paying attention here
 
There's a good chance that I'm now misinterpreting the scenario
 
Same. That sounds more like a "nobody bothers to check if the value has changed" situation than a "I assigned a new value but for some reason it still has the old value" situation
 
7:25 PM
lupus specifically means they are afraid that after thing.thang = 42 they will later find thing.thang != 42
 
Wouldn't be the first time someone wasted a few hours debugging only to find out they accidentally wrote thing.typo = 42. Speaking from experience
 
I guess multiprocessing could allow for that, but indeed, I have misunderstood the question
thing.thang could be open to a race condition. Other than that, no, I don't think it's possible
 
but if thing.thang is mutable and a class attribute, other things can change it too...
 
I'm not using @property or @attr.setter at all. using structures like these, more or less: pastebin.com/svXXzyHd
 
I see mutable class attributes :'D
but they seem to be accessed via the class so no surprises are hidden there, if the example is to be believed
 
7:32 PM
I misnamed the function do_comparison as doStuff in the example.
Alright so I think no funny stuff here, right?
 
this "class keeps track of instances and makes them interact" thing is still pretty "funny stuff"
I'd find it hard to extrapolate to your real code, promising that there aren't hairy knots in there.
 
you mean that responsability should be given to a separate class, am I right?
 
I mean what we mentioned earlier: it's weird to want to keep track of your instances
you have a method which loops over every instance and makes them do something to "this" instance... that just looks weird
 
My money's still on a typo
 
@Aran-Fey I'm not even sure lupus saw something weird earlier, or is just anticipating something weird...
I guess you could try using __slots__ to ensure that no attributes are created accidentally. Not sure what the exact requirements are for that to be applicable.
 
7:38 PM
Yeah I understand @AndrasDeak . Eventually I will fix it: the abstraction is really messy and indeed I should have subclasses: even though objects are initialized as equals, later on they will be split into different "types" depending on calculations/comparisons to other objects. Also methods that interact with more than 2 objects at the same type shouldn't be on the same class (which is enormous).
yeah @Aran-Fey I don't have that happening now, as far as I know: trying to debug a weird output now, and was considering this could perhaps be the case but now I think it's not. I remember last year when I spent 2 full days debugging only to find out that behavior in which you do copy_of_list = my_list thinking it's a copy, but it's actually not lmao.
thanks guys :)
 

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