« first day (3994 days earlier)      last day (937 days later) » 

1:16 AM
cabbage!
 
1:34 AM
cbg guys
 
cbg
 
I see, they are removing the emoji from FastAPI, finally
 
lot of python chat for me to catch up laurel
 
2:22 AM
The Python tag is 848 questions away from catching up with java on the tags page: stackoverflow.com/tags
 
 
2 hours later…
4:41 AM
Can someone share me some easier resources with regex. How to get a particular regex pattern from a multiline string text ?? I tried with re.search() but I dont understand it properly.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:02 AM
Hi everyone! I'm currently working on a dataset and I need a JSON output from labeling them, but all I could find was XML output format. Do you know any tools? by the way, I tried LabelStudio but it didn't work on my system. Thank you in advance.
 
6:19 AM
@AchyuthKodali hello. Please see our room rules and wait 48 hours before bringing a question here from the main site
@picklerick Hi. You'll need to be clearer in the type of output structure you need. There are plenty of resources on converting data to JSON, including an in-built json module in Python as well as standard ways to convert a pandas dataframe to JSON
 
6:36 AM
@picklerick you didnt word your problem aqequately but did you mean you're manually annotating bounding boxes on an image dataset? if so, perhaps use the vgg image annotator, should support json format. robots.ox.ac.uk/~vgg/software/via
 
 
3 hours later…
9:26 AM
I have to decide between pytest vs unittest and blog posts didn't really help with the decision. Do you guys have experience with both? What do you prefer? Syntax wise I like unittest more, but pytest seems to be more popular, also stdlib is always nice
 
pytest
 
have you tried both?
 
Yes. 😭
 
haha, wait what's so bad about unittest?
 
It's just a chore wrapped in chores that are a chore to use.
Tons of boilerplate that don't provide any benefit.
pytest is very convenient to use, and provides very powerful introspection when tests fail.
unittest just has neither.
 
10:00 AM
@Hakaishin what is it about unittest that you like "syntax-wise"? With pytest you write a function that does something, and it's a test. I.e. perfection.
Stdlib is very often not nice, especially when it was copied from java.
 
10:14 AM
@AndrasDeak that I don't have to use a lot of annotations
but I guess I will go with pytest if it's the common wisdom
 
anyone using pycharm and doctest ? I ahe the problem that modules are discovered differently between external pytest and the doctest runner in pycharm ...
 
pytest is more than the common wisdom, it's the sane option. +1 on pytest
 
@Hakaishin what kind of annotations do you mean?
 
the fixtures
 
A basic set of tests works without any fixtures or marks. All you need are functions that assert whatever you expect.
 
10:24 AM
and those bells and whistles only give you more powerful options
using a decorator to parametrise tests shouldn't be a hassle
 
I'm not sure what I'm missing, but take this section: docs.pytest.org/en/6.2.x/fixture.html#fixtures-are-reusable why not just call the functions instead of use fixtures?
 
It's an MCVE. And arguably a single function parameter is better than a bloated thing = fixture() call at the top of each test.
and I bet there's also mechanics to automatically handle teardown (never done anything like that, this is just a hunch)
 
@AndrasDeak if it were just that yes, but it's also adding the @pytest.fixture annotation, which again seems like more work
 
if you don't need a fixture, don't use it
@Hakaishin to the fixture itself, once
then in each test you just use the name
 
Yeah I will proceed just with functions and asserts and see if I feel the need for fixtures
 
10:29 AM
Features are there to make your life easier. If you don't feel the need for them, don't use them.
Problems arise when you can't not use a feature.
 
@AndrasDeak right, I thought also where I use them. Yeah it might be nice syntax sugar
 
11:19 AM
Anyone here who has worked with generic class based views ?? I can get all the objects as queryset = modelname.objects.all() but how to go through a particular object??
 
Is there anyone here who could check over a script that is producing unexpected behaviour for me as I am struggling to find what is causing it?
 
@Lamma As long as it's a Minimal, Reproducible Example sure
 
11:34 AM
@Aran-Fey The script itself is only 200 lines with a lot of comment fluff and every step is dependent on the last so I am not to sure I what i can remove. Is that to big?
 
That's pretty long, yeah. But if you can't remove anything, it'll have to do
 
@Hakaishin fixtures are life savers at keeping your "setup" activities clearly demarcated and easy to trace back. They are a fantastic feature, not an inconvenience. having your setups explicitly passed to your tests helps so much when you scale things up. you can choose not to use them, but i'd say give them a fair chance.
 
@ParitoshSingh Yeah I was reading up on them a bit and they do seem alright
 
@Aran-Fey I would need to share some data for the issue to be reproduced, how would you like me to do that?
 
You mean like a file?
If possible, include the data in the code. Replace open(file_name) with io.StringIO(file_content), etc
 
11:38 AM
this is where part of the MCVE preparation comes in. can you cut down on the "data" while still demonstrating the behaviour? to the point that you could even inline the example data inside the demo code*
 
if you create a github gist you can define multiple files there
 
yes, well I guess knowing the input may not actually help here. I will try work out the best way to do it. I will get back to you :)
 
 
1 hour later…
12:41 PM
I'm having some issues with a question I posted and am new to this chat. Is this the appropriate place to ask?
 
@Meowzz welcome. You can read our rules here and see.
 
Looking at your question... Hm! Has SO always had markdown for tables? I don't remember seeing that before
 
it came with the new markdown engine, so fairly recent
 
Cool, I guess I was hiding under my rock that day
 
Creating those tables has been a nightmare LOL but thank you for the rules!
 
12:49 PM
@AchyuthKodali no, please don't ask for help here with fresh questions on the main site as per our rules.
 
@Meowzz Yeah, seems a bit fiddly to get right. I think most readers would be happy with un-beautified CSV data inside a code block, or really any format that can be copy-pasted into their programming environment without too much work
 
You started a chat with your answerer 12 minutes ago, you should wait where you get with that user who's already willing to look at your problem, @AchyuthKodali.
 
I wonder how hard it would be to write a parser that converts a markdown table into a native Python object
 
sphinx and friends might have already done that
clearly pandas needs a .from_markdown() method
 
SO devs, please implement "right click -> copy to clipboard as Python literal" behavior for table elements, thanks in advance
 
12:59 PM
I wonder if pd.read_rable could handle it
 
Does anyone know of a resource explaining the fuzzy wuzzy module. Usually I visit pandas.pydata.org but there's not much out there on what I'm looking for (unless I'm looking in the wrong place :) ) Specifically, more information about fuzz.ratio(), fuzz.partial_token_sort_ratio(), etc.
 
When I need to find documentation for a module, the first place I look is pypi. pypi.org/project/fuzzywuzzy looks relevant.
 
@Kevin Do you mean thanks in advantage ?
 
And that page links to github.com/seatgeek/fuzzywuzzy, which... Hasn't updated in five years. Not the most encouraging sign...
Ah, no, the readme was updated two weeks ago. Much better.
@AlexandreMarcq Well that's a bold and fresh way to use that word
@Meowzz Yeah, I don't see much documentation here, I'm afraid. github.com/seatgeek/thefuzz/blob/master/thefuzz/fuzz.py has a couple of docstrings and comments, but some functions, such as partial_token_sort_ratio, are totally blank
Perhaps experts in the field of fuzziness can deduce its behavior just from the name. Bad news for laymen like me.
 
Appreciate the info @Kevin. At first I thought it was a new module as there weren't many posts on it. So I'm going to continue on my rabbit hole in hopes of solving my problem.. sigh
 
1:12 PM
Looking at the test suite can sometimes lend a little insight. At least it tells you what kind of input/output usually goes with a function. github.com/seatgeek/thefuzz/blob/master/test_thefuzz.py
For example, we can tell that partial_token_sort_ratio returns 100 for the inputs "new york mets vs atlanta braves" and "atlanta braves vs new york mets". Perhaps this means it considers two strings identical as long as both strings contain the same words, even if they're in different order.
 
Looks like fuzz.token_sort_ratio, compared the two strings, sorts in alpha order and then joins them. chairnerd.seatgeek.com/… Found this link helpful
 
Ah, nice. And it's written by the library's author, so there's a good chance he knows what he's talking about :-p
 
Now its a matter of figuring out how to loop this logic between two files. I don't even think token_sort_ratio is appropriate for all cases but hey, its all trial and error.
 
@Aran-Fey What a gem :)
 
Yeah, I suspect token_sort_ratio might give low scores for strings that we would consider similar. For example "Rob Jones" and "Bob Jones" might be quite low if it sorts them as ["jones", "rob"] and ["bob", "jones"] and then compares them pairwise
I haven't actually tested anything though, so maybe it's smarter than I give it credit for
Yeah, it is smarter than I gave it credit for. it looks like it strips out exact matches before sorting, so you'd have to have something like "Rob Jones" vs "Bob Johnes" in order to get worst-case pairings
Maybe you could do a brute-force comparison of all possible orderings of tokens... How many spaces does the average person's name have in it?
 
1:40 PM
Ufff honestly, I'm still sifting through it so I'm not sure how many spaces names have on average.....yet. I have two csv files, one has 2 million rows and the other has about 300K rows. I'll look into brute-force comparison. I chose fuzzywuzzy because it was an add-on in excel which makes it so simple to do the analysis, directly in excel. Of course with 2 milli records, I thought this module would be a good approach, which I still do think it is. I would not even think about doing it in excel
The approach someone took on my post seems correct, however, I just don't understand his code. I'm just going to wait till he responds and maybe i'll trust it more.
 
Yeah I don't totally understand that code either
 
nervous smile
 
Caution: emp_map = dict(zip(emp['Full Name'], emp['Employee ID'])) assumes falsehoods 21 through 23. Consider what you want your program to do when you have four different employees named John Q Smith
"I don't particularly care what it does" is a valid design choice IMO, if it still makes your boss and customers happy
 
Yup I think thats fine. If employee, John Smith, matches on 6 different vendors that have John Smith in the vendor name, I want to see all those results. Don't even care about any other field matching. Its really just a broad search.
I don't get why employee ID is being mapped when I'm just trying to match on name in two files.
I've read the post about 100 times but will read it 100 more times until I get it
 
1:56 PM
I suspect merge is more efficient if the column you're matching on is guaranteed to have a unique value in each row. employee IDs are likely to be unique, but names aren't
In the worst-case scenario, where all one million employees and 300k vendors are named John Smith, merging on name would give you a table with 300 trillion rows
 
I wonder when people will have unique global ids, 50-100 years?
 
The main obstacle for that, I think, is global political cooperation. Our representatives can probably hem and haw about it for centuries.
 
yeah, that's what the question boils down to. But I'm optimistic this problem will be solved in the next 50-100 years one way or another either we did it or nobody is around to worry (: Looks anxiously at Australia and the South Asian Sea
 
"Well, we couldn't get approval for our system from South Korea, Iran, or North Sentinel Island, but it's 2120 and we just invented a satellite that can detect people through eight feet of lead and read their fingerprints, so I guess we don't really need their approval"
 
I would be interested in a survey of the leading hypothesis of renowned scientists about the fermi paradox. Self destruction seems my best bet currently, followed by the initial seeding of life is super rare, everything in between seems like it's bound to happen
 
2:11 PM
I feel like I've seen growing support for "life is common, but intelligent life isn't", at least in pop science
 
@Kevin Meh I don't buy it, intelligence is such a strong comparative advantage over billions it's about to happen
North Sentinel is interesting, I wonder how a population of 400 people can survive over longer times, I thought inbreeding would be a problem
 
"Across billions of planets with life, intelligent life is bound to happen" seems plausible to me. Our own planet is proof enough, I suppose. But if it happens once per billion planets with life, that might be sufficient to explain why it's so rare.
 
This still leaves about 100-400 civilizations... Hmm actually less than I expected
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population mentions the "50/500 rule", where "population needs 50 individuals to prevent inbreeding depression, and 500 individuals to guard against genetic drift at-large". It's only an estimate, of course.
Humans might have an advantage there because they can establish social norms such as "don't marry your first cousin" and "if you have six fingers, try not to have a lot of kids"
I bet the minimum number can get quite low if you give supreme matchmaking power to a team of geneticists. "Sorry Bob, you have to break up with Alice and marry Carol because it improves the tribe's malaria resistance by 1%, ten generations from now"
I remember reading a short article about a tribe where there are a small number of legal last names, maybe 4. There are objective algorithms that determine what your last name is based on your parents' last names, and who you're allowed to marry based on whether your last names match. At first glance it seems arbitrary, but it turns out it's very good at promoting genetic diversity.
 
2:30 PM
@Kevin hmmm surprisingly little, I thought it would be in the order of 5000 people
@Kevin Haha iceland?
 
I do like their system but I don't think that's the one the article was about
 
2:50 PM
no, Icelandic last names are Paternal
(not sure why I wrote that with a capital P)
 
Uff I just had to revert setuptools-scm from 6.3.1 to 1.15.0. I hope that won't be an issue
@AndrasDeak because of the Patriarchy :D
 
Right, I don't think it does much to prevent things like first-cousin marriages. Bob Carlsson has two children, David Bobson and Ethan Bobson. David names his son Francis Davidson, and Ethan names his daughter Gertrude Ethansdottir. Francis and Gertrude can't tell whether they're first cousins just by inspecting their last names.
 
3:07 PM
Proposed algorithm: If you're in generation 0, choose a last name at random from "A" or "B" or "C" or "D" or "E". If you're in generation 1, your last name is the sorted concatenation of your parent's last names, e.g. The child of A and C is "AC"; the child of E and D is "DE". If you're in generation 2, your last name is whichever letter is not present in your parents' last names. e.g. the child of AC and DE is B.
You can't marry someone if your last names share a letter, and you can't marry someone in a different generation.
Hmm, I picked this model because the math works out nicely, but I don't know if it actually has any genetic benefit, besides making it illegal to marry your sibling
 
A few hours later and my intuition was right, this just seems ugly... @pytest.mark.parametrize('tester', [['var1', 'var2']], indirect=True) I guess there is no easier way, but meh
 
3:24 PM
Why do you have a list of lists there? I don't know indirect so it might be OK.
actually, yeah, the use case I know is indeed a nested sequence, with (name, value) pairs, if I recall correctly I recalled incorrectly
How does parametrisation look like with unittest?
 
@AndrasDeak Less annotated and requiring me to write less strings. Looking up python objects per strings is always a hassle, no autocomplete an inspection, that's a big quarrel I have with ros but actually with any pub_sub system. I think in unittest I just did it manually by just calling functions
but yeah it's all wishy washi and I'm gonna stick some more to pytest, it does seem neat
Alright it's a bit unintuitive but it does work out of the box with multiple fixtures some which take arguments and others which don't, that's nice
 
3:42 PM
@Hakaishin OK, upon reading the docs I still don't get why you have a nested list. Shouldn't it be ['var1', 'var2']?
 
@Hakaishin PyCharm fully understands parametrize. I assume there's a plugin for VSCode as well.
 
@Kevin That shouldn't be too hard, the table format's pretty basic. On a related note, I posted a Sage program that builds a Markdown table. It's mostly Python, with a bit of JavaScript. See chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/52675947#52675947
@AndrasDeak And occasionally matronymic. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name
@Kevin From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage Worldwide, more than 10% of marriages are between first or second cousins. [...] In some cultures and communities, cousin marriages are considered ideal and are actively encouraged and expected
 
4:08 PM
@Kevin Australian Aboriginal society has (had) some interesting schemes that are quite good at reducing inbreeding in a smallish population. They used moiety systems which control who can marry whom. Systems with 4 moieties were the most common, and the mathematical relationship between the 4 moieties is given by the Klein four-group.
If we number the 4 moities & arrange them in a 2×2 square:
0 1
2 3
Then permitted marriages are between horizontal pairs, and mother-child connections are vertical. I.e., a 0 woman must marry a 1 man, and her children are in moiety 2.
 
5:09 PM
Only having two valid marriage pairings is one way to avoid the combinatorial expansion problems I was having with my prototypes
 
@PM2Ring thanks
 
Also, these kinds of scheme can't get too complicated, or people won't be able to memorize them, or do the required calculations.
@AndrasDeak No worries.
 
I'm imagining a moiety-using society being contacted by contemporary society for the first time, and once the groups get acquainted, the moiety users think "these poor primitive people, they don't even have kinship groups"
 
People who grow up in a moiety system can do the calculations almost instantly. If you give a 5 year old kid part of a family tree, and tell them the moiety of one person on the tree, they can tell you the moiety of anyone else on the tree with ease.
Neighbouring tribes had different names for their moieties, but they recognised correspondences, which allowed inter-tribal marriages.
 
5:25 PM
Well, there's sixteen different combinations of "If this person has moiety {0|1|2|3}, what moiety is their {mother|father|child*|sibling**}?" so you could, in principle, just brute-force memorize them all.
And some of it generalizes further to modular arithmetic. e.g. your mother's moiety is (your moeity plus two) mod four
 
Conversely, the moiety system prohibits marriages between people of the wrong moiety combination, even if they have no known common ancestors.
The Klein 4 group makes it easy. With the above numbering, in binary, if you're in group a, your spouse is in a^1 and your mother's in a^2
 
And your father is in a^1^2 = a^3?
 
Yes
When an Aboriginal person uses the word "auntie" they might be referring to their mother's sisters, but they could be referring to any woman of that generation with the same moiety as their mum.
Also, notice what happens with grandparents.
 
So your father's father has the same moiety as you, and likewise for your mother's mother...
 
Exactly. Good for bonding.
 
5:38 PM
In Japan "obachan" ostensibly means "auntie" but AFAICT you can use it to refer to any middle aged woman that you're familiar with, in an informal setting
I'm guessing this is one of the words that foreigners should use with extra caution, because on top of the usual hazards of offending someone with the wrong politeness level, you're also indicating that you consider them middle aged
 
With European colonization, a lot of people got displaced, separated from their families, etc. And for some time, there was a practice of forcibly removing kids with White ancestry from their tribes, and putting them into orphanages, with the prospect of them being adopted by a White family. :( They're now known as the Stolen Generation.
 
I wonder if moieties get associated with particular character traits, the same way as horoscopes. "Ah, he's a textbook Tjapanangka, always the first to ask for seconds at a meal"
 
One of the things that the Stolen Generation complain about is that they often don't know their skin group, and it's generally really hard for them to find out. That makes having relationships difficult...
 
Conversely, if you don't know your skin group, maybe you can find the one best suited for you by working backwards from your character traits. "I'm always the first to ask for seconds at a meal, so..."
But I imagine that many people in that situation would prefer not to make a guess, even an educated one
 
@Kevin I think there's a bit of that. There's a bit of friendly rivalry / competition / stereotyping. OTOH, 2 guys of different moities can't fight over the same girl.
 
5:49 PM
Ah, useful
 
@Kevin Yeah. I heard a woman discussing it on a radio interview. She said "How can I go out with a guy who might be my brother?"
 
Before the third date, candidate must submit a DNA sample to 23AndMe
Let's see, what's the turnaround time on that... Oof, 4 to 5 weeks, not including shipping.
 
There were a few tribes in the far west that were so strict that a man had to minimize contact with women of the same moiety as his daughters. That includes his mother-in-law. They even had a special "mother-in-law language" they were supposed to use when communication was necessary. It was more a dialect rather than a full language, with a lot of the main nouns changed from what they were in the main language.
Those languages are virtually extinct now, so we don't know a lot about them.
Ah, Wikipedia has a little bit of info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidance_speech
 
I think I've heard of that. I also recall a belief that there are secrets that women know about the world, that men should not try to know; and vice versa. They may or may not have had gendered languages to make this easier to manage.
 
6:05 PM
Yep. "Secret Women's Business" / "Secret Men's Business". It's caused a few difficulties when Aboriginal groups have tried to explain why a certain place is particularly sacred to them, but they're forbidden to make the details public.
 
"Ugh, these explorers don't even know about kinship groups, how are we going to explain nuclear radiation to them? Forget it, just tell them it's not a place of honor"
 
@Kevin just keep to using 'oneesan' unless the old lady has white hair
 
I can do that.
It's funny, just this morning I was thinking of the idea of "forbidden knowledge" in the context of first contact with aliens.
Little green men: we come in peace.
Us: cool FTL spaceship, how does it work?
LGM: we can't tell you that.
Us: why not?
LGM: we can't tell you that either.
 
The early European settlers were pretty oblivious to the fine details of Aboriginal culture. Aboriginal people generally didn't build fences, or have what Europeans considered to be money. And they didn't plow the land and plant grains (you can't exactly get a kangaroo to pull a plow), but they did do some replanting to encourage various food plants.
 
One possible explanation could be "we won't tell you how FTL works because you can use the tech to blow up the sun using only $5 of materials from home depot. And we won't tell you why we won't tell you, because simply knowing that a $5 sun bomb is possible, is all the information you need to figure it out by process of elimination"
 
6:18 PM
So the Europeans "naturally" considered that they could do what they wanted with the land. But the Aboriginal sense of land ownership worked on different principles. They were often nomadic. They didn't have land deeds, but they had stories about all of the places on their nomadic circuit. They had very strong rules governing intellectual property like songs, stories, and visual artistic designs.
 
"Doomsday weapons are surprisingly easy to make" is one of my favored explanations for the Fermi Paradox, to tie this back into this morning's conversation
 
So it's kind of ironic that in the modern world intellectual property has become a major thing in modern economies, and the old agriculture-based values are being superseded, to a degree. (Of course, we still need land, food, water, wood, etc).
 
@PM2Ring I've heard similar stories about the sale of Manhattan by its native inhabitants to Dutch colonists in exchange for $24 worth of goods. Among other explanations and extenuating circumstances, the sellers may not have had an understanding of land ownership. But contemporary accounts are rather sketchy, so who knows for sure
 
Land ownership is a pretty weird concept. We're kind of used to it, because it runs so deeply in our culture. But as one Aboriginal guy said "How can you own the land? You can't pick it up and walk away with it. I don't own my land. It owns me".
But anyway, onto the Fermi paradox. :)
 
My second Fermi paradox theory is that all spacefaring societies take very long naps, and everybody happens to be asleep right now.
 
6:29 PM
Maybe there are intelligent aliens that are close enough to be detected, and who can detect us. But maybe it's just too yamming expensive to travel this far.
 
"Oh yeah, we only come out of hibernation for one century every 31,000 years. It's so we don't get totally wiped out by the Unstoppable Fleshrippers, who come out of hibernation every 30,000 years. That's coming up soon, come to think of it"
It's like the Dark Forest theory except there's a game of football every christmas
 
It seems that life arose on Earth not very long after conditions were good enough. But then there were billions of generations of single-celled life before anything multicellular arose. And then quite a long time before life ventured onto the land. Most life gets along ok without much intelligence. Of course, it's given us some advantages, as well as allowing us to cause a lot of grief for other humans and for numerous other species.
 
Anyone aware of contour detection in opencv?
 
Evidence suggests that things evolve into crabs five times more often than they evolve into people, so therefore 84% of planets are crab planets
And that 5:1 ratio is when people are the dominant species and making an honest effort at eradicating all life on the planet. If there's no tool-users mucking things up, maybe you can't throw a rock without hitting something that's carcinizing
@JackDaniels I've heard of it, sure
 
@JackDaniels Not me, but there's at least one regular visitor to this room that knows about it. If you post your question there's a good chance that they'll see it.
 
6:46 PM
There's a short story on the SCP Wiki where every animal on earth spontaneously mutates into a crab over the course of a few months. The crabs retain their original intelligence, so human society manages to recover. By the end of the story, general consensus is "being a crab is fine, actually"
 
@Kevin assuming terrestrial evolution, to be fair
 
I guess if you've learned how to live in space, you might as well just hang out in your local system, where you have a nice warm star supplying energy. Sure, you could build generation ships to slowly explore the galaxy, but it's a long slow dark journey between the stars... unless you live in the galactic core.
 
We've got these sweet underwater cities, climate change is basically over, and 99% of the unstoppable paranormal things that were trying to kill us before are just stoppable mundane crabs trying to kill us now
 
If you want to go fast enough to get time dilation, you need a vast amount of energy, like multiples of your rest mass, before the time dilation is significant.
 
When you're 100 AU into your journey, the little green men from before show up. "Ok, we'll teach you how to build FTL tech, since evidently your species can now withstand an exploded sun or two"
It's entirely plausible to me that far-future humans will build a generation ship because they're hoping that's what will make the vulcans finally reveal themselves
There aren't many good reasons to explore space, but there are a lot of dumb ones
 
6:56 PM
Some form of Prime Directive makes sense.
If I were an alien with FTL tech, there's no way I'd give it to Earthlings in our current state.
 
Humanity++ cuts the opening ribbon on their sixteenth dyson sphere, hoping that the (2^2)^(2^2)th time is the charm, but no celestial fanfare plays.
"Bah! We eradicated war and disease and inequality, all for nothing???"
Oops, I got the math wrong on my exponents there. Please use your imagination to substitute in appropriate values.
 
If a bustling Galactic culture revealed itself to us tomorrow, it would be amazing. But it would also be pretty shocking. It could have a very depressing effect.
 
Y'all are too optimistic. The first aliens we meet are gonna go "Hey, we ruined our planet, can we live on yours? You guys seem to have things under control better than we did"
 
Theoretical physicists everywhere rejoice for ten minutes as they read the galactic wiki page for the Grand Unified Theory. Then they notice that their field of study has been completely solved, and start updating their resumes
 
At this stage, I'd be happy if humans learned how to make space habitats that weren't reliant on Earth. IMHO, there's no point in even thinking about going to the stars if we can't even survive in space in the Goldilocks zone.
 
7:05 PM
I recall a scifi story that ends with the protagonists becoming the first interstellar pioneers because they made the Sol system government really mad and it wasn't a good idea to hang around any more. "Let's see how alpha centauri is this time of year..."
They didn't ruin their planet, per se, but they did ruin their ability to live on it
 
That sounds vaguely familiar.
I still reckon the solution to the Fermi paradox is economics. There might be a way to do FTL, but it's useless because it takes the total output of the Sun for a million years to open a wormhole.
In one story, a race discovers a primitive way to do FTL, but it takes a vast amount of energy, and you don't have much control over where you go. When one (or more, if they're lucky) of their ships reaches a star system, it starts mining the asteroids and building more ships, von Neumann style.
They also build a supernova bomb & drop it into the star. The supernova propels them to their next destination. Eventually, other races with more sophisticated FTL notice this black blob growing in a region of the galaxy.
 
in space bird culture that's considered a yam move
 
No wonder.
 
Welp, I just realized I have no idea what a "paradox" is. I thought a paradox had to be logically inconsistent, but apparently not if the Fermi paradox and even the ship of Theseus are considered paradoxes
 
7:21 PM
The video game series Dead Space has a backstory that rounds to "there are Von Neumann probes going around, and when one lands on a planet, it's very very bad for the native population"
 
The people with the supernova FTL are a sect of religious fanatics, doing their best to go forth and multiply...
 
@Aran-Fey physics paradoxes are just counterintuitivenesses. Theseus' ship is a philosophical one, though.
 
It sure would be nice if humanity could actually fix the things that are destroying our own planet. Yeah, there's an asteroid impact (or other catastrophe) potential, but we don't need that to do our damage anyway. I don't see any reason why we aren't just bumping up a stop-loss by colonising another planet
 
Colonizing more of our solar system is a tough sell because it still doesn't save us from gamma ray bursts
 
@Aran-Fey There has to be some kind of apparent contradiction, inconsistency, or glitch. It
@Aran-Fey There has to be some kind of apparent contradiction, inconsistency, or glitch.
 
7:23 PM
glitch!
 
I don't see any of that in the ship of Theseus tbh
 
OTOH, even if the apparent contradiction can be explained, it may still retain the "paradox" descriptor.
 
An unclear definition of a word is not a paradox as far as I'm concerned
 
that's philosophy for you
 
Yeah. The Ship of Theseus is more like an unresolvable disagreement between different philosophical schools of thought.
 
7:27 PM
If the Fermi Paradox is a paradox, then I propose the "Newtonian Paradox", which notices that some astronomical data doesn't match our model of physics from the 1700s
 
similarly, there's Gibbs' Paradox and the Banach--Tarski paradox, both of which are perfectly consistent within their frameworks (if you believe the axiom of choice), just unintuitive
 
Ontological paradoxes are usually self-consistent, as well
Build a time machine on Tuesday and go back to Monday to give yourself time machine blueprints -- no problems there, every effect has an apparent cause
 
until you kill your grandfather
 
If you think that all events must have a causal chain that can be followed all the way back to the beginning of time, rather than forming a loop, that's just millennial entitlement
Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop eating avocado toast
 
Happy Equinox! Sorry, I'm 15 minutes late.
 
7:36 PM
No! Now my henges will be misaligned for the next six months.
And I had all these eggs I was going to balance...
 
The idea of time being circular is pretty neat
 
I disagreed the first float('inf') times you said that, and this time is no different
 
Time can't circle back around until we build our 256th dyson sphere and the little green men give us the entropy reverser
 
Gödel found a solution to the Einstein field equations that gives a universe with intrinsic rotation. Initially, Einstein was happy with the idea of a rotating universe. But then Gödel mentioned that his solution permitted CTCs, closed timelike curves. Einstein didn't like that one little bit.
 
I have now read enough Wikipedia articles about Minkowski spacetime to know that "timelike curves" is not something scifi writers made up to justify a plot device
I have graduated from the convenient lie of "imagine that spacetime is a rubber sheet, and mass is a bowling ball" to the convenient lie of "imagine that spacetime is a rubber sheet, and there are two cones intersecting it at the center of your reference frame"
Definitely a lie because when I look up, I don't see a cone
My geometrical model of light cones falls apart when I read about closed timelike curves, because it shows diagrams of a past light cone overlapping a future light cone. This contradicts the convenient lie that light cones are always consistently aligned no matter what reference frame you're in.
 
8:00 PM
the problem with a light cone is that it's 2+1 dimensional
what you really have is a sphere expanding with c along the fourth dimension
 
Ah, that explains why I don't see a cone when I look up -- I need to put on my hyperlight goggles and turn my head along the Q axis.
 
And then when you have curved spacetime, there's no global "3+1" axis as you'd imagine in a rigid Newtonian universe.
@Kevin you don't have to look up: the cone is in every direction at the same time (as long as you're at rest) \o/
The light cone is your ripple of causality starting from the "(here, now)".
 
No global axes, yeah. Wikipedia is very insistent that we live in an isotropic world.
 
It's a bit hard to see a 4D cone when the pointy bit's stuck in your eye.
 
Which is odd to me because it seems like the universe stopped being isotropic about 10e-50 seconds after the big bang, when there started to be particles in some places and empty space in other places
I'm going to blame... Quantum.
 
8:04 PM
@Kevin that's partly explained by homogeneity vs isotropy. But the cosmic microwave background is also isotropic anisotropic, so...
 
Yeah, it's noticeably chunky
 
if you have a block of sponge, it's all bubbly inside, but you'll probably measure the same speed of sound in it regardless of the direction of propagation
 
Sponge universe is displeasing to me, I want smooth pudding universe
 
The CMB is isotropic, to better than 1 part in 100,000. But you have to subtract out our peculiar motion to see that. When you do, you get something like this:
 
Oh, not so chunky
 
8:13 PM
Otherwise, you get this: (from astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/c/… )
 
neat
 
That page says the fine variations are 1 in 10,000. But I think my previous figure is correct. I'll check...
 
Perhaps I ask for too much when I say I want a 100% perfectly isotropic background. Even if the universe was still puddinglike when it became transparent to microwaves, it's still hard to achieve a perfect smear when light sometimes behaves like a particle.
Zoom in far enough, you're gonna get stippling
 
Wikipedia says The radiation is isotropic to roughly one part in 100,000: the root mean square variations are only 18 μK, [10] after subtracting out a dipole anisotropy from the Doppler shift of the background radiation.
@Kevin When it became transparent to visible light. The blackbody colour was roughly the same orange as the theme of this room. But it's been red-shifted down in frequency by a factor of ~1100 by the expansion of space.
 
A paradox: at the beginning of the universe, there were no microwave ovens, nor eyeballs to perceive things as visible. Therefore, it is a contradiction for there to be light in either of those ranges.
 
8:30 PM
The so-called recombination wasn't instantaneous, it took on the order of 10,000 years, depending on how you measure it. Also, the helium started being un-ionised before the hydrogen did. Of course, they were fairly homogeneously mixed, and there was virtually no gravitational clumping at that stage. But even small energy density variations were enough to leave a "fingerprint" on the CMB.
 
How large was the universe then? About 10_000 lightyears?
 
It would be interesting to see a map of the CNB, the cosmic neutrino background. That decoupled from the electrons & photons when the universe was only about one second old, so it's been red-shifted vastly more than even the CMB. But we may never be able to detect those cold slow neutrinos directly.
 
I bet there's a dark matter hypothesis out there based on those cold neutrinos
 
@AndrasDeak I can't quite remember. But IIRC, the separation between the bit of the universe that became us and the bits of the universe that emitted the CMB photons that we're currently getting is now around 46 billion light-years, so back then it was roughly 46 billion / 1100 lightyears.
@AndrasDeak Yeah. There's a lot of them, but they don't have anywhere near enough energy to account for dark matter. But they might be slow enough to clump a little in galactic gravity wells.
 
8:42 PM
@PM2Ring I'm not sure I understand the math there, but in any case "it was large"
 
The redshift z = 1100 measures how much the scale of space has expanded. The wavelength of the CMB peak has been expanded by 1100 times, so the space here is 1100 times bigger than it was back then. OTOH, the expansion wasn't linear, so it's hard to say how much space those photons traversed in their journey.
 
aah, got it, thanks
I didn't link the 1100 to the factor you mentioned earlier
 
No worries.
Australian astrophysicist (and extreme Frisbee practitioner) Amanda Davis has some great text & videos on her site about expansion. Her paper with Charlie Lineweaver is considered to be the definitive reference on the topic.
 
neat
 
The ArXiV version of that paper is actually better than the official version because it corrects a couple of minor errata.
 
9:11 PM
Speaking of astronomical things, I've been using the CGI interface to JPL's Horizons system to fetch solar system data for a year or so. But I recently discovered that they have a more modern file API that's a bit easier to use. You can pass Requests a string instead of a file handle.
 

« first day (3994 days earlier)      last day (937 days later) »