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2:25 AM
cbg
 
 
4 hours later…
6:37 AM
cbg
 
cbg
hey guys adjusting the old code i spoke about yesterday and coming across alot of things like dpaste.com/A4V7RPMH7
am i correct in what i think they should be? as shown in the link?
 
6:52 AM
yeah
 
@Kwsswart the first one no
 
Thanks guys
 
False or (True and False) vs False or True and False.
 
both results False
 
And "== True" doesn't even belong in a comment
@python_user I'm on mobile. Did you run the second?
 
7:00 AM
>>> False or True and False
False
>>>
>>> False or (True and False)
False
 
OK, thanks
 
I just bracket such things just to be sure if I were kwsswart
 
if it's equivalent it still needs parentheses for readability
 
7:17 AM
@AndrasDeak yeah this code apparently was written y somebody 4 years ago and hasnt been touched since.... trying to sort through it xD
 
Is "you can't do that with str, only with bytes" an acceptable lie to children? Do kids these days stomach encodings?
 
@MisterMiyagi might depend on context, and on the age of the children
 
Old enough to ask how str.join works.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:43 AM
hey guys question
is it better to go
 
yeah its better to go ;) (just kidding)
 
which is better here dpaste.com/DWP739VPC he has done it for 100 lines of code... but surely with the constant assignment it would affect speed?ç
xD
when surely we could do it in a oneliner
 
9:58 AM
I'd either build a regex, or use a loop
regex would also simplify optional whitespaces
 
hmmm would need to look into how to do that regex
because its alot of different things they have replaced
@AndrasDeak dpaste.com/E2N5HQM5D thats the full replacement as they had it lol
 
minor caveat which "probably" won't affect this use case: incremental replaces can sometimes show different characteristics compared to a single regex replace, where one incremental replace prepares the next replacement. eg. "AabB" with an incremental replace of "ab" followed by "AB" would wipe out this string
 
@Kwsswart for starters you'd take the same strings and concat them with '|'. But all those dangling whitespaces can be reduced with ` *`.
and yeah, what Paritosh said
So you could have things like "SOC. ?COOP. ?LTDA."
without a test suite I'd be real careful not to change behaviour, so perhaps you should just go with a loop
 
yeah, seconded.
 
10:07 AM
gather all those replacement strings in a list, then do
for replacement in replacements:
    aux = aux.replace(replacement, "")
not the best choice of variable names
 
will do thanks for the advice and yeah dont get me started on the variables xD I need to sort all of them some of the variables were named wszr and kk and seters
really strange ...
 
Well it used <>, didn't it? Good programming style hadn't been invented back then.
 
yeah it did
 
unrelated, reading up a bit earlier, i have a question now. how is True or False and False parsed by python?
True or False and False
Out[17]: True
 
or short circuits at True?
 
10:14 AM
@ParitoshSingh and has higher precedence than or, so it's True or False which is True
 
ah perfect, ty
 
@Kwsswart coming back to this: in the first example keep the parentheses, and add an enclosing pair to avoid a line ending backslash
 
Ok will do
 
I'd probably add two breaks to have each orred pair on a line
 
why does something like this print only "true"?
def true():
    print('true')
    return True

def false():
    print('false')
    return False

print(true() or false() and false())
 
10:19 AM
@python_user short-circuiting, as you said
my earlier remark was half a lie
precedence means that it's equivalent to true() or (false() and false()), and short-circuiting means that the second half is never executed
 
ahh, I just wanted to clarrify
I mean if and has a higher precendence, shouldnt the false() and false() part be executed first?
 
no, as I said precedence only defines implicit parentheses
 
ok thanks for making it clear now
 
How tightly each operator binds.
Someone might "wellactually me", keep checking this page :P
 
well, I just thought true() or false() and false() meant (true() or false()) and false() in which case I can understand how it short circuited with the or
 
10:26 AM
but that would've given you False
 
:52749769 if ((abs(int(num1) - int(num2)) < 11) or
                                                                (int(num1) == 0 and int(num2) != 0) or
                                                                    (int(num1) != 0 and int(num2) == 0)):
 
The LISP is strong in this one.
 
like that you mean?
 
@AndrasDeak ok I ran it and now it makes perfect sense, thanks again
 
@Kwsswart yeah, just without atrocious indentation
hmm, although all alternatives seem terrible to me
this is allowed by PEP 8:
if ((abs(int(num1) - int(num2)) < 11) or
    (int(num1) == 0 and int(num2) != 0) or
    (int(num1) != 0 and int(num2) == 0)):
    pass
or placement seems loose...
 
10:39 AM
@AndrasDeak will run with it this way then... thanks everyone for the input.... incase you are curious ran a small speed test with the 3 different ways of doing the replacements dpaste.com/BUCY4BEYP have yet to look into the regex method mentioned earlier
 
I wouldn't be surprised if a regex was faster for that many strings, needing only a single pass on the string.
 
the difference seems marginal so far
probably will take a look at how to do it as I am curious at how much faster it would be
 
Looping vs manual assignments are not a performance change, just a style one. As little redundancy as possible.
Spoiler: you just need pattern = '|'.join(replace_case) and then call re.replace with that pattern.
but it could give different results if patterns can overlap, so beware
 
will give it a try what do i have to lose ^^
 
40 ms is not the kind of speed that you'd want to improve on at the cost of unreliable results.
Ah, not all of your replacement are with empty strings (or spaces). That makes it a bit more complicated.
I'd probably gather the "replace with empty" cases in a single pattern as I said, and leave the rest with the loop.
I mean I wouldn't, but if you want to try regex, that's the way
For production I'd define two lists, one with a list of substrings to remove, and the remaining non-trivial replacements.
 
10:45 AM
@AndrasDeak very true tbh I might play with it a bit for curiosity sakes, although that last idea could work
 
10:56 AM
what's a good name for a parameter taking in a generic list? list is taken and l gives ambiguous warning. and my_list seems bad
 
I ocassionally see seq in documentation and tutorials
I wonder if any of the approaches described at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… could help Kwsswart get sub-linear performance.
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/25010167/… what are chats opinions? Answer 1 or 2? I tend towards 1, I'm finding 2 in our code from time to time
 
Which one is 1?
 
the first answer? it's the same for everybody right?
 
You mean the accepted one? And 2 is the highest voted not-accepted?
 
11:10 AM
yes
 
I'm on board with answer 1. The problems of answer 2 are just from trying to be lazy – if something is useful enough to be used twice, it deserves a better name than f.
 
@Hakaishin you can sort by votes or age and maybe activity
Accepted non-self answers are always on top
 
I used to have no qualms about assigning lambda expressions. Since I discovered that PEP 8 was against it, I try to avoid it
I have sympathy for all the commenters saying "but if I use def, then my linter triggers these three other warnings :-/". Fortunately for me, I'm not using a linter.
One commenter gives "sort, then groupby, using the same key function" as an example of a time he's willing to use asssigned lambda. I've done that myself. If the callable is only going to be used a couple of times and only on lines that are very closse to its definition, then I'm more willing to use assigned lambda
 
I think PEP 8 is also against on-line conditionals and function definitions
 
11:27 AM
Proposal: biodegradable variables that unbind themselves after X lines have executed
 
@Kevin I usually just add a helper that does that for me.
@Kevin As in, asspressions?
 
@AndrasDeak that's why I like PEP8 :)
 
sarcasm?
Because one-liners are overrated
 
No, all seriousness. I love PEP8 And Miyagi and Kevin encouraged me to enforce it
 
jolly good
 
11:33 AM
I was wondering if I'm being pedantic, but 3 to 1 seems enough for me to warrant a change
 
To be clear I'm advocating for
def foo():
    return bar
 
11:47 AM
and against def foo(): return bar
 
12:13 PM
funny enough that was the lambda x: x
 
yeah i wish the top answer just wrote out the function according to PEP8, instead of writing it in one line
 
It's a quote from the PEP itself, actually. :/
 
oh.. raises finger up.. i.. uh... ...okay. puts finger down
i wish then PEP8 was written according to PEP8 instead of writing it in one line. but... this no longer makes sense. pah, humbug.
 
1:04 PM
there's also
# Correct:
if x == 4: print x, y; x, y = y, x
It just says "Compound statements (multiple statements on the same line) are generally discouraged"
> While sometimes it's okay to put an if/for/while with a small body on the same line, never do this for multi-clause statements. Also avoid folding such long lines!
A little-minded hobgoblin is the consistency of foolishess, after all
 
We wants it! We needs it! Must have the foolishess!
 
1:29 PM
Thanks to pyupgrade, I just learned that str.encode() and decode() always defaults to "utf-8", not sys.getdefaultencoding(). open() does default to the platform encoding. Using encode("utf-8") is so ingrained that I still don't quite believe it.
 
I would have leaned toward UTF8 being the default, with no strong conviction
Is sys.getdefaultencoding() something weird on Windows, by any chance?
 
you bet it is. cp1252 usually
 
of course it is
 
'utf-8' for me, but I have all manner of weird customizations going on
 
haha yes it is :D
 
1:33 PM
Every platform has weird encoding quirks, there's a whole suite of PEPs that ended up making it better for 3.9 on Linux/Mac, and Windows has had some intense discussions too.
 
perhaps it depends on the locale...
 
It seems that two weirds make a normal
 
i've been bitten hard by implicit encodings in stuff like open, especially before i understood what encodings were. So i trust implicit encodings about as much as i would trust facebook with my data.
(i couldnt come up with a better analogy in the short time. i tried!)
 
You still need to specify the encoding for open, but encode and decode always default to "utf-8".
 
aye, but i tend to write it out explicitly everywhere now, i don't think i'll ever change that now.
sidenote, pyupgrade looks cool. does it fare better than 2to3?
 
1:37 PM
it has a different purpose
 
actually, does it even compete with 2to3? it's not immediately obvious to me at a glance
ah okay. gotcha
 
you tell it the lowest python version you want to support, and it changes the code to use all available features for that version, so you're not using old patterns
 
neat
 
I basically never specify an encoding for open and I can't recall a time that this has caused problems. Maybe it's because I rarely need compatibility across environments or programs. As long as Python can write a file and then read it without mangling any data, I'm probably good
 
Yeah, I'm aware of encodings but I never specify one when I rarely open something. Hopefully I'll catch on quick when I first open a third-party non-utf8, non-ascii file.
 
1:40 PM
If you're writing scripts, or know you're always running in a consistent environment (that preferably has a utf-8 encoding, most do), then it doesn't really matter. It's a bigger deal for libraries.
 
Makes sense
 
if you're on windows, prepare for pain.
... well, i suppose you are on windows, so you probably came prepared.
 
Not me, I'm built different B-)
 
no, that's Apple
 
I also never specify, but I had my fair share of pain with encodings, especially on windows
 
1:46 PM
that's a surprising combination than :P
 
well I'm mostly on linux since a year, feels good :)
 
2:02 PM
I think this is the first time I've seen the banner presumably trying to stop the tail of crap answers. Odd that another big question didn't get the banner, though
 
> Notice added Needs detailed answers by Bhargav Rao♦
You can probably flag for a mod asking for the same thing. Along with a dozen other git questions.
 
Seems a shame that it has to go through a mod. Even a simple heuristic could automate a lot of that work and it's not like a false positive is damaging
 
 
1 hour later…
3:29 PM
is it possible to pass query parameters to selenium separately ? instead of driver.get(UrlWithParams) to be driver.get(url, params=params) ?
 
Shouldn't the API reference answer that question unambiguouly?
 
@AndrasDeak you meant WebDriver API?
 
Let's say "yes" just to keep the conversation going
 
Well, I've checked it here but unable to find ref for that?
 
3:40 PM
Find the get() method
after all that's what you're calling...
 
I bet the firefox driver class doesn't overload the base implementation, so you should check the base class for the method. Or just click here. selenium-python.readthedocs.io/…
I don't see any optional parameters or anything here, so AFAICT the answer is "no, you can't pass query parameters separately"
 
proof would be looking at the signature of driver.get (potentially interactively)
 
@Kevin That's why i was asking. someone asked same-question before, and pointed out to use @staticmethod but am not sure if it's can be.
 
I wish urls would get the same treatment as paths did with pathlib
 
Same, i feel params=params make the code more clean and easy readable
 
3:44 PM
@αԋɱҽԃαмєяιcαη answer is wrong and useless
 
Not quite useless; it does show without going through github that there are no optional args for the get() method. But a terrible answer :/
 
The answerer appears to have understood only the part of the question saying "my method says I'm giving it the wrong number of arguments" and parroted the first suggestion that they saw from some half-remembered question along those lines
 
@roganjosh How does the answer show that?
 
'get() takes 2 positional arguments, but 3 were given' no?
 
3:46 PM
@roganjosh in the question, yes?
answer is (wrong and useless)
 
def get(self, url):
    """
    Loads a web page in the current browser session.
    """
    self.execute(Command.GET, {'url': url})
get is just sending back to COMMAND class which at the end is useless
 
Perhaps you could monkeypatch in a custom version of get that takes an optional params, and adds it into the url before calling the original get
I can never remember how monkeypatching works in Python. It's either very easy or very hard.
 
I think only monkeypatching dunders on the instance fails, normally
 
overriding the method ?
 
yes
But that would just mean that you're putting the query params into the URL elsewhere
 
3:53 PM
But at least that's will let me to factor the query params as a dictionary to be more readable especially if am dealing with multiple query parameters leading to long uri
 
yes
 
Please make a WebDriver subclass instead of monkeypatching a method
 
also acceptable
 
acceptable, unlike monkeypatching
 
if it's for an answer on SO, just shadow the original method with a lambda
 
3:54 PM
Maybe you can just do something like the_regular_webdriver.get(add_params(base_url, param_dict))
 
Sorry, isn't monkeypatching mean to override the method ?
 
Yeah.
 
@Aran-Fey then, what that mean ?
 
@αԋɱҽԃαмєяιcαη subclassing is the polite way of overriding a method
 
monkeypatching is something you can do when you're testing your code, not something you should do in regular code
 
3:57 PM
And by add_params I mean docs.python.org/3/library/…
 
@AndrasDeak ah yeah, sorry. You're right
 
Monkeypatching is when you take apart a Kinder egg, fill it with skunk juice and then put the chocolate and wrapper back on. Subclassing is marketing your improved egg as Smelly Surprise.
 
@AndrasDeak seems you hungry :D
 
I'd need a lot of Kinder eggs to fill me (but I wouldn't say no)
 
3:59 PM
>>> import urllib.parse
>>> url = "www.example.com"
>>> params = {"foo": "bar", "baz": 23}
>>> url + "?" + urllib.parse.urlencode(params)
'www.example.com?foo=bar&baz=23'
 
Fortunately Milka's "alpine milk cream" or whatever variant tastes the same, and weighs 90 or 100 grams.
 
Here's a small example, I think everybody is already aware of this method, but just in case
Basically what I'm saying is, forget monkeypatching, forget subclassing. If you want to keep your parameters in a dictionary, you can, and just call urlencode at the last second right before executing webdriver.get
 
@Kevin the query string ? i was having big discussion towards it within Scrapy threads :P as it' should be assigned automatically once params is used
 
... but you can't use params because it doesn't exist
 
What does "used" mean in this context
 
4:02 PM
I sense a non sequitur
 
@roganjosh you meant within scrapy ?
 
My crystal ball says "just because something is called params it might be in a different context"
 
I'm not sure I know what I mean at this point <scurries back under rock>
 
Are you writing a patch for scrapy? Do you have a link to the issue and/or related threads?
 
I wonder if Kevin is morbidly curious or hopelessly optimistic
probably yes
 
4:04 PM
Nope, my initial question indeed regarding selenium , but once you mentioned the point of urlencode, i do remember that I've been discussing the point of auto assigning ? to the end of the url once url parameters is used, instead of keep remember to add it to end of the url, otherwise you will hit 404
 
@αԋɱҽԃαмєяιcαη So we can finally agree that your remark has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Do you see why it confused people?
 
:) am not sure if i caused confusion now. for me i was discussing the part of assigning ? which kevin mentioned
 
No, he did not mention that.
 
>>> url + "?" + urllib.parse.urlencode(params)
9 mins ago, by Kevin
>>> import urllib.parse
>>> url = "www.example.com"
>>> params = {"foo": "bar", "baz": 23}
>>> url + "?" + urllib.parse.urlencode(params)
'www.example.com?foo=bar&baz=23'
 
Current topic: "selenium's .get() doesn't support parms, so you have to build the URL yourself. You can do this <with this code>"
Ahmed: "in scrapy there's a method, if you call it with `params` then you don't have to add the question mark to the URL yourself" (artist's impression)
 
4:09 PM
Hmm, on second look there should probably be a "/" before the "?"
 
@AndrasDeak it's only your impression then as i didn't saying that
Thanks @Kevin , i got it
 
I see
 
Re: "not sure if i caused confusion". I've been confused for the entire conversation. But I am confused during most conversations, so I'm reluctant to blame anybody.
 
My favorite analogy for monkeypatching and other things that cause unexpected behavior is always a construction site where the laws of physics don't work the way they usually do.
Why is the drill plugged into the water faucet? Well, the cable was too short, so the faucet was repurposed.
You walk into a room and suddenly start to float? That's because it makes installing the lights on the ceiling so much easier!
You forgot the client wants to look at the sunset from the patio? No problem, we'll just make the sun set in the south from now on.
 
4:18 PM
That's an awfully close description of how programming was taught to me... D:
 
And that's your origin story for the crazy experiments in the Miyagi Cave
 
@AndrasDeak The latter. I can remember a time or two where we asked ahmed "is this related to some existing question on SO?" and he gave us a link that provided some much-needed clarity.
So, like a dog that found a half-eaten jelly donut in the bushes just one time, I must now check the magic donut bush every day for all eternity
 
@Kevin That sounds really familiar
 
It's from a tweet which has made the rounds through social media. Let's see if I can find it.
 
@Kevin politely, I don't have the way to respond with sarcastic way for you or anyone here. at lease i keep respect that you or others has helped me a lot in one day. i myself keep learn and learn others. So am not looking forward to go into a dialouge of fighting/been sarcastic someone here
 
4:24 PM
Thanks, that's the kind of tweet that I didn't know I needed to see today
 
@αԋɱҽԃαмєяιcαη I think I've upset you. I'm sorry about that. I'm not trying to have fun at your expense.
 
Nevermind @Kevin :P all is ok.
 
👍
Firefox decided to delete all of my userscripts today... Good thing I put most of the important ones online.
 
That's why i use Greasemonkey :D
 
Yes, I also use Greasemonkey. I didn't even know it was possible for firefox to delete scripts belonging to an extension, but here I am
I think my case is exceptional, and firefox usually does not erase user data like that. It just so happened that my computer turned off while firefox was in the middle of updating.
 
4:33 PM
I've lost my userscripts on more than one occasion
 
And the reason my computer turned off is because I shut it down, because it was running slowly, because firefox decided to update itself without asking for my permission and without showing any indication that it was updating
I'm guessing it got as far as step 99 out of 100, "port user data from old version to new one", when windows said "nope, all processes must die right now"
 
idk why firefox force user for updates. it happens a lot with me when i just close firefox and reopen and notice the update is taken a place :S
 
my firefox doesn't do that
Even with that setting it waits until I restart it.
 
My firefox didn't do that for about a month of me clicking "no thanks" every single day. Then, yesterday, I guess it just decided enough was enough.
 
@AndrasDeak ah this is a dev edition.
 
4:42 PM
"Oh, that's weird, I could have sworn you clicked 'yes, update' this time. Oh well, no going back now! Btw I changed all your security settings to the ones most favorable to Mozilla Corp"
"Send usage metrics, including full keystroke log and firstborn child" mysteriously goes from unchecked to checked
My jimmies would be far less rustled about this if I didn't have to go through the intensive process of deleting the undeletable "other bookmarks" folder out of my bookmarks menu, which reappears every time an update goes wrong, twice as undeletable as before
 
this isn't even its final form
 
 
1 hour later…
6:00 PM
I'm having a brain fart :/ If I have a 2D asymmetric distance matrix between locations (lets say the row index represents the "from" location, and the column index represents the "to" location) and I want to find the mean distance between traversing the path in either direction, what am I "doing" in technical terminology? i.e. mean(distance_loc2_to_loc1, distance_loc1_to_loc2) for all pairs
 
I wouldn't think that this has a name
 
Interesting. I find that quite surprising, actually
 
Perhaps I misunderstand what you're asking. Or I just don't know logistics.
 
Is there more magic than mean(distance_loc2_to_loc1, distance_loc1_to_loc2) being (distance[loc2][loc1] + distance[loc1][loc2]) / 2?
 
if i had to guess, that sounds like just a distance matrix. only, your way of measuring distance is a bit nuanced, that's all
 
6:07 PM
The logistics context might be useful for understanding, but I thought this might just be a standard matrix manipulation that was named. If it's 100m to travel from A-->B and 50m from B-->A then I want that result to be 75m
But now that I think about it, I don't know what that new matrix would look like because it's now bi-directional :/
 
as far as matrices go, this has to do with (A + A.T)/2 which is the symmetric part (or symmetrization) of the matrix
you'd want to look at the lower or upper diagonal of this matrix
that's all that comes to mind
 
@roganjosh the distance would be same for A->B or B->A (75m) so it won't matter right?
 
Logistically speaking, you're looking at half the length of roundtrips, so if you start from A or start from B the roundtrip will have the same length, hence symmetry.
 
@ParitoshSingh Yeah, that was my next thought. I could keep the matrix shape but replace all the asymmetrical elements with the mean
It's not mega important, I basically just assumed that it would have a name that I was failing to grasp. Apparently not, and that's still a good result :)
 
You did read my messages, right?
 
6:12 PM
Upper and lower diagonals of the matrix?
 
Symmetrization of a matrix?
and "diagonal" was a dumb braino there, I meant lower and upper triangular parts, sorry
 
No worries, I also missed your hint. We'll write it off :P So I could use something like this but get the mean?
 
No, just (A + A.T)/2. But the result is redundant, so you only need upper or lower triangular values.
 
Ah, got it. Thanks!
 
If you had the results of scipy.spatial.distance.pdist we could consider computing the mean without redundancy...
scipy.spatial.distance.squareform could help here I guess, if you really needed low storage
 
6:18 PM
The asymmetry comes from battering a server that gives real-road distances. I wasn't aware you could get asymmetry from something like pdist?
 
If the metric is proper then no, hence the conditional
I guess you could still do (squareform(arr, checks=False) + squareform(arr.T, checks=False)/2 to store without redundancy :P
unless the matrices are huge this is definitely overengineering
 
(A + A.T)/2 is more than adequate. It was me that over-engineered my plan so I'm grateful for being brought back down to Earth
 
 
1 hour later…
7:49 PM
I have python inside msys2 and I need to make python-magic work. The module itself successfully installed with pip, but it complains that it can't find libmagic and pip install python-magic-bin returns
ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement python-magic-bin
ERROR: No matching distribution found for python-magic-bin
pacman -Ss magic doesn't return anything useful either (only imagemagick stuff)
Any idea what I can do?
 
Can something like github.com/pidydx/libmagicwin64 help?
2015... guess not
Is the libmagic in packages.msys2.org/package/file?repo=msys&variant=x86_64 the same libmagic?
 
I'm looking at the source code, and it seems to attempt to load dlls from the CWD. But downloading magic1.dll from there didn't help
@AndrasDeak Seems like it, python-magic attempts to load a dll named "msys-magic-1.dll"
 
I have no idea what msys is so sorry for being so plastically quacking
 
Hmm, I can't find any dlls with "magic" in their name in my entire msys directory :|
 
can you download from that second link?
 
8:04 PM
There's a .pkg.tar.zst file which I'm not sure how to extract, and the source code, but that doesn't include a dll of course
Let me see if I can compile this
 
it has the same file tree inside as mentioned lower on the page
so there's both usr/bin/msys-magic-1.dll and usr/lib/libmagic.dll.a in there, I checked
/tmp/file-5.40-2-x86_64.pkg.tar.zst: Zstandard compressed data (v0.8+), Dictionary ID: None
 
7zip can't extract it :(
 
Don't you have a linux at hand?
 
I'd have to reboot... twice
 
yeah, that's not at hand
How much is 220k in base64? :D
 
8:10 PM
I threw caution to the wind for a second and downloaded the dll from some random website. Works!
 
heh
sure beats rebooting twice :P
libmagic.dll.a is 101k characters with base64
with zlib.compress it's 7405 chars
 
Welp. Next I have to install webkit for python, and from what I can tell that's pretty hopeless
 
If you still need those files I think I can post them compressed with base64 :D
 
"compressed" :P
 
compressed and base64ed
 
8:16 PM
ah
Well, thanks for the offer, but I'm gonna have to throw in the towel
 
OK :(
 
This is the same python program where I wondered if I should contribute to it or write my own version. So at least that question is now answered
 

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