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12:07 AM
Is anyone here familiar with peewee? I've made a base model. It has the database connection in its database property in meta subclass. When I inherit this base model and I try to create my model's table it says:

database attribute does not appear to be set on the model
I wish Andras Deak or Aran-Fey were here right now ): They may know the answer.
 
12:30 AM
so embarrassing question but is mkdtemp() supposed to make the temp directory in your current working directory?
 
1:12 AM
It's solved.
 
@toonarmycaptain I assumed you might, but have seen people confused about it so like to be sure :)
 
1:54 AM
class FirstClass:
  x = 1
  class SecondClass:
    y = x+1
Does anyone know how I can get the value of x inside the SecondClass?
 
@LinkBerest lol, maybe a few years ago, but the suggestion that someone might craft a request without going through my frontend is exactly that simple to explain and comprehend.
@X4748-IR ...pass it as an argument? eg second_class_var = SecondClass(x)
 
Pass what as an argument? Where? One of my friends said: inherit the first class in the second class. It doesn't work either.
 
2:09 AM
@X4748-IR the variable you need to reference inside the second class?
 
I really don't understand what you're saying lol But yes.I need to reference FirstClass Properties inside the SecondClass.
 
class SecondClass:
    def __init__(x_arg):
        self.x = x_arg
        self.y = self.x +1
        # or without instance x
        self.y = x_arg + 1
 
@Aran-Fey I've solve the issue by using lamba function and it is due to mix of vectorised panda operations with ordinary python syntax
 
@toonarmycaptain I think you also need self there
 
@LincePotiguara My bad, make that def __init__(self, x_arg):
 
2:23 AM
I've an issue, the github code to predict rules is throwing following error
File "apriori/apriori.py", line 118
for item, support in sorted(items, key=lambda (item, support): support):
^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
I find hard to understand the code
May I know what's the reason behind the error or is it github code itself has issues ?
 
2:43 AM
Is this python 2?
 
2:54 AM
I hope not
 
I don't know , Readme of that github repository doesn't say so
Yes it's python2
It doesn't throw any error when runs with python2 command
Thanks @LincePotiguara
 
 
4 hours later…
7:19 AM
Ah, the joy of the first team meeting after a full-night network outage with zero communication by the emergency team. slurps coffee
 
7:35 AM
@YatShan no need for a lambda. You can index into df with the boolean index df['A'].str.contains('AB')
 
@toonarmycaptain It's also not going to touch WTForms, which is why I'm unsure which part of HTML5 you'd want to leverage
To be fair, I think WTForms work fine for their intended purpose. I just don't fit the criteria :P
 
7:56 AM
Am I missing something in for item, support in sorted(items, key=lambda (item, support): support): (from that apriori library)? That's just for item, support in sorted(items, key=lambda x: x[1]): or even using itemgetter?
I'm not sure why that line would be throwing an error outside of Python 2, either.
 
I too did use tuple-arguments back when we still could. I vastly prefer unpacking over indexing.
 
Mmm ok. So what I thought was a bit quirky is now a removed feature
Starting my Friday morning with a "how the hell did you not know this PEP?". How was the crisis meeting, MM?
 
8:12 AM
Disheartening. Apparently, our "redundancy policy" for Network North to Network South caused Network North and Network South to start an all-out war of services, with each region trying to get sole control.
I imagine routers running around with laser guns, and firewalls conjuring walls of flames.
Sarcastic comments were made.
 
Did we not learn from the Flash Crash? Silly computers trying to take control
 
8:59 AM
@AndrasDeak I've fixed that by changing the line to df_['A'] = df.apply(lambda row: row.column1
if row.column7 == 'AB' else print('Not Required'), axis = 1)
 
@YatShan Please see our formatting guide
Also, lambda is a poor approach with Pandas because it's going to fall back to a for loop. The suggestion by Andras doesn't do that
 
Okay
 
Since you're looking at a binary choice, you'll want np.where
I'm not sure why you have a print in there, though
 
print to avoid compilation error due to missing else block.
 
That's... not good. You can use pass for a no-op but that doesn't make much sense to me either
 
9:07 AM
pass doesn't work in a ternary if. The whole approach is wrong, really
 
Basically how to populate values a new data frame based on old data frame ?
 
df_['A'][column7] = np.where(df_['A'][column1] == 'AB', something_here, df_['A'][column7])
 
Thank you, I'll give above a try and will let you know am I getting the expected output
 
Actually, even that is broken because I'm using two column indices
The problem doesn't make any sense
 
Oh really
The problem is to mine association rules. Before mining association rules, I've to create a new data set based on original data set.
Kind of data slicing
 
9:10 AM
maybe df_['A'] = np.where(df_[column1] == 'AB', something_here, df_[column7])
 
Do we really need numpy here ? Can't we achieve only using pandas dataframe ?
 
10 mins ago, by roganjosh
Also, lambda is a poor approach with Pandas because it's going to fall back to a for loop. The suggestion by Andras doesn't do that
And pandas is built on top of numpy
 
Ok
 
@roganjosh My cats are laughing at these youngsters trying to gain control. Computers might rule the world, but they'll never rule the world while lounging on an armchair, furry tummies pointed skywards to be cuddled by puny humans.
 
@roganjosh your option worked. But drawback is that np.where command is not supporting or condition inside method parameters
 
9:23 AM
Oct 10 '18 at 23:28, by roganjosh
It's the regex that gets me. I swear it's just cats hammering on a keyboard and other cat owners are pressured into accepting that the jumble of characters makes sense, lest they get their face mauled
@YatShan I don't follow at all
 
Ok
@roganjosh Thanks for the help
 
@YatShan When say "is not supporting or condition", can you show the code you tried to use?
 
mm, ok. You're welcome, I guess. If you clarify the problem then I am happy to try help
 
@MisterMiyagi I bet they got the original error about ambiguous bool on Series
I can post the one expression they really need when I'm back on laptop
 
@MisterMiyagi `df_['ID'] = np.where(df['DSS'] == 'DE' or df['DSS'] == 'MS', df['ID'], df['ID'])
 
9:29 AM
Called it
 
@YatShan Again, please see the formatting guide
df_['ID'] = np.where((df['DSS'] == 'DE' | df['DSS'] == 'MS'), df['ID'], df['ID']) But that's pointless because you have the same outcome in either case
 
@roganjosh parentheses around the args
| bounds tighter than comparison operators
 
Yeah, I've had to turn to Spyder to try figure out the parentheses but I fear I can't before the edit window closes
 
@roganjosh TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for |: 'str' and 'str'
 
@YatShan did you read this answer on the question you linked earlier? Read and understood it? That's how you'll figure this out.
I can give you the line of code you need, and you can use it, but if you don't understand what's going on (and you don't) you'll keep hitting this wall without knowing what to do with it.
You will have to take your time to understand the mechanics.
 
9:36 AM
@YatShan I screwed up on the syntax and can't fix it now, but it doesn't change the fact that , df['ID'], df['ID'] doesn't make any sense. That's an if/else that both lead to the same outcome
 
@roganjosh if you look at their original question I think they want filtering, not splicing two columns
they are struggling to put something in the "else" branch because they don't need an "else" branch
 
Yes correct @AndrasDeak
 
@YatShan yes, so rather than ignoring my previous messages, please read those too and answer me.
I can help you but I need to know that you'll learn from it.
 
@AndrasDeak for the comment 'You can index into df with the boolean index df['A'].str.contains('AB')'
I'm reading the post you shared and trying to understand it
 
@YatShan OK, that's good. Read it a few times, go over the code and explanation one at a time. If you see something you can't figure out, ask here.
 
9:40 AM
@AndrasDeak OK
 
@AndrasDeak mm, I can buy that in some sense, but they have an assignment with df_['A'] =
 
@YatShan what's going on is very simple if you understand it once, so it's worth your time
 
@AndrasDeak I have to refer the meaning of series, I've never used it.
 
@YatShan df['ID'] is a Series, a column of a dataframe. You've used it.
 
9:53 AM
@AndrasDeak From what I understood is to convert the interested column into a Series and then to check item() with the desired values
 
@YatShan I don't understand what you're saying, nor how you reached that conclusion from the answer I linked
What I want you to understand is why you're getting the error you came here with when you use chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/6?m=49875831#49875831 or chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/6?m=49879167#49879167
 
@AndrasDeak I read the entire stack overflow post you referred and as per that I came with above written code for what I'm looking for
 
This is too much. I really suggest that you read some tutorials on Pandas, @YatShan.
 
@roganjosh Okay
 
@YatShan Yes, writing more code to implement your task without trying to understand the underlying issue you're facing is not helpful.
 
9:58 AM
@AndrasDeak @roganjosh Thanks so far, even though my messages were not answered
 
@YatShan I didn't see a question beyond the original problem you're solving. As I said I don't want to give you a piece of code that works if you don't understand what it does. This is a fundamental thing in numpy/pandas and you'll keep encountering it, so you have to learn now rather than later. Otherwise you'll just keep having to ask for others to come up with the magical code that works.
I have to go for a while but you can ping me if you need help understanding the problem
 
@YatShan It's fine, but it's clear that you don't have a foundational knowledge of the library so we're going to struggle to help you in a meaningful way. Even if we did fix this for you, you won't know how it works on a fundamental level
 
@AndrasDeak @roganjosh Okay I'll read and learn about pandas. I am new to data science. I'll let you know if I encounter any further
 
Is it normal to rely on the order of the rows in a dataframe? I always thought they were more like dicts.Turning two values from two consecutive rows into a single row seems weird to me
 
Yeah, you can rely on the order of rows
It's quite common actually, since you can shift rows to create another column to give you a "look behind". For time series, for example, this could be important
It's probably more helpful to think of them as a dict of arrays. You'd rely on the ordering in the array, and the dict would be the column names. That's a simplification, but a reasonable analogy (I think)
 
10:13 AM
@Aran-Fey absolutely
there's always an index in general, but that's just a range by default
The difference between .loc and .iloc is indexing based on index or integer position. You usually want to work with indices.
 
@Aran-Fey I think of them as named tuples, not dicts.
 
Huh. A namedtuple filled with pandas series that all have the same length?
 
@Aran-Fey Hold on. The dict aspect is for columns ("filled with pandas series"). You were asking about row order.
df['A'] gets you a column
 
I'm just extrapolating what Aran truly meant, since I always confuse row/column. :D
 
I refuse to believe that MM has this confusion. World --> upside down :P
 
10:20 AM
Are rows actually named?
 
@AndrasDeak Right, but the namedtuple model only makes sense to me if a tuple is a row. Because columns have names, so the elements of the tuple must be the columns
 
@Aran-Fey can't a namedtuple have integer names? I.e. the index
@roganjosh you mean sideways
 
<scrambles to find the index to pivot on>
 
@roganjosh row-major versus column-major is the MM equivalent of a fork bomb.
 
Hadn't thought of that, I guess that's possible
 
10:23 AM
Plus the namedtuple thing is just Miyagi's rationalization, so it doesn't have to imply anything about pandas design :P
If I knew how databases worked I'd be more confident to say that a dataframe is like a simple database
 
FWIW, both '"Pork pies eaten last month" field of the table' and '"Pork pies eaten last month" field of the row' make sense to me.
 
@MisterMiyagi They're referenced by an index (which can be a multitude of things) but it does totally break my dict analogy which only really works for columns, not rows
 
(but I don't so I'm not)
 
@AndrasDeak They work almost quite roughly exactly like a post-3.6 dict. adjusts monocle
 
The database analogy wouldn't help me because I don't know if database tables are ordered or not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
10:26 AM
@Aran-Fey I thought you and I were the database experts here
 
@roganjosh So are we talking about rows or columns now? That's why this stuff always confuses me...
 
Get on that PeeWee problem, guys
import numpy as np

df = {'a': np.arange(10),
      'b': np.arange(10)}
My God, what a mess with connection issues. Sorry
So, 'a' and 'b' are the column names, and you have a pandas.Series as the columns
Which is basically a wrapper around the numpy array. Each item in that array is a row
 
Huh? You mean column in that last message?
 
Told you that row/column is super confusing...
 
@AndrasDeak no. Each item in the array is a row
 
10:34 AM
As far as I can tell, the left-right thingy has both indices and names, and each element is an up-down thingy which is a numpy array.
 
@roganjosh that's even confusing for me and I should know what you're talking about :P So what is "array" in that sentence? Already "wrapper around the numpy array" sounds dubious
Unless you mean "a single item in the series is a row" which is likewise confusing
"row" mostly makes sense in terms of a whole dataframe.
 
mm. Cig break while I try think about this. I thought I was being helpful but perhaps not :P
 
Technically you can call a (scalar) item in a column (Series) a "row" but that's just asking for trouble :P
 
The dataframe is a numpy array that contains rows? Under the hood?
 
@Aran-Fey no, ignore that :P
 
10:37 AM
It's so much easier if you consider indexing the transition from n'd space to n-1'd space. No chance for confusion. :thumbsup:
 
A dataframe is a lot more like a dict of Series objects. Series are more like numpy arrays (they are homogeneous), but are more flexible and have different memory management
@MisterMiyagi Tower of Babel in the making :P
 
There's no problem that cannot be explained by liberal use of indirection and recursion.
 
Weird how discussing mental models of something everyone is familiar with always reliably results in confusion
 
>>> import pandas as pd
>>> df = pd.DataFrame({'a': [1, 2, 3], 'b': [-1, 4, -2]})
>>> df
   a  b
0  1 -1
1  2  4
2  3 -2
>>> df.info()
<class 'pandas.core.frame.DataFrame'>
RangeIndex: 3 entries, 0 to 2
Data columns (total 2 columns):
 #   Column  Non-Null Count  Dtype
---  ------  --------------  -----
 0   a       3 non-null      int64
 1   b       3 non-null      int64
dtypes: int64(2)
memory usage: 176.0 bytes
 
"I don't get why you need an example", my math professor used to say, "just insert some numbers and solve it, that's your example"
 
10:40 AM
the natural unit of a dataframe is based on columns
>>> df = pd.DataFrame({'a': [1, 2, 3], 'b': ['foo', 'bar', 'potato']})
>>> df
   a       b
0  1     foo
1  2     bar
2  3  potato
>>> df.loc[0]
a      1
b    foo
Name: 0, dtype: object
you can slice rows but they are new objects, in case of mixed-type columns you get an object-dtype Series because nothing else can hold that slice in one Series
the "wrapper for a numpy array" can only make sense for Series objects, i.e. a single column
 
TIL indexing horizontally also returns a Series
 
it should not confuse you that there's a lot of additional functionality making it easy to work across columns as well (hence a lot more than just a dict)
>>> df = pd.DataFrame({'a': [1, 2, 3], 'b': [-1, 4, -2], 'c': [4, 5, 6]})
>>> df
   a  b  c
0  1 -1  4
1  2  4  5
2  3 -2  6
>>> df.loc[:, 'b':'d']  # 'b':'c' also does the same thing, understandably but weirdly
   b  c
0 -1  4
1  4  5
2 -2  6
@Aran-Fey same
 
Andras fixed my hand-waving. Good job I took that break :)
 
oof, had 4 seconds left to edit that creepy typo
 
FWIW I don't really know how pandas can make a Series from a row
 
10:46 AM
It's a Series where the index contains the column names. Or what do you mean?
>>> df
   a  b  c
0  1 -1  4
1  2  4  5
2  3 -2  6
>>> df.loc[1]
a    2
b    4
c    5
Name: 1, dtype: int64
>>> df.loc[1].name
1
>>> df.loc[1].index
Index(['a', 'b', 'c'], dtype='object')
and the original index becomes the name
I think that exhausts the available attributes of a Series
 
Given my own mental model, where columns at pandas.Series wrapped around numpy arrays (which they are, you can get at them with .values) then it's not intuitive to me that you can also get a series by going across rows
I mean, it totally works, and is actually intuitive to use, but there is some magic going on
 
How so?
The "get a series by going across rows" is not a Series thing, it's a DataFrame thing
 
That's what (I think) I'm referring to
 
Like, how in a 2d numpy array you can query the diagonal which is a new array
 
It's labeled in 2 dimensions, even though the structure is actually orientated around columns
 
10:52 AM
You might be confusing the interface with the representation :)
 
The thing that's not obvious to me in Pandas is which operations yield existing data in a new wrapper (aka views on data), and which ones actually produce new data.
I assume there is some intuitive rule to it, but so far my motivation to find it is lacking.
 
@MisterMiyagi well, that's a specific piece of pandas knowledge, just like numpy.
it probably correlates a lot with numpy, with the addition of homogeneous columns
Specifially, slices give you views and array-valued indices give you copies
 
"What Would Numpy Do" is indeed my working model for Pandas. It seems to be sufficient until one looks at Series trickery as shown above. My solution thus far is not to look.
 
It only becomes a problem when you think about it. Important lesson; don't think. All solved.
 
>>> df = pd.DataFrame({'a': [1, 2, 3], 'b': [-1, 4, -2], 'c': [4, 5, 6]})
>>> df
   a  b  c
0  1 -1  4
1  2  4  5
2  3 -2  6
>>> df_fancy = df.loc[:, ['b', 'c']]  # copies
>>> df_fancy['b'][0] = 42
>>> df
   a  b  c
0  1 -1  4
1  2  4  5
2  3 -2  6
>>> df_sliced = df.loc[:, 'b':'c']  # views
>>> df_sliced['b'][0] = 42
sys:1: SettingWithCopyWarning:
A value is trying to be set on a copy of a slice from a DataFrame

See the caveats in the documentation: pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/user_guide/…
@MisterMiyagi not sure what you mean about Series trickery. You know columns are independent so you are guaranteed to get a copy if you slice rows (at least I see not other way. But still I'm not a pandas user)
If you don't know that columns are independent then I understand :P
 
11:00 AM
I'm actually only 50% sure whether columns are guaranteed to be independent. E.g. if the table is homogeneous/matrix-like, is it still separate arrays?
 
They are separate arrays, of course.
DataFrames manage their data in columns, period
 
My brain seems to be wired to assume some Clever Optimisations.
 
It wouldn't be guaranteed if you have object type that refers to some other global, I guess
 
@roganjosh hmm?
Ah, I get it. Having an object-column with multiple references to the same mutable object.
Yeah, but object-dtype arrays and dataframes are going out of your way to get in trouble.
 
@AndrasDeak Ah. Thanks for pointing at the relevant facts. Pandas printouts are usually bigger than what I'm used to, so I often liberally skim and throw away information.
 
11:03 AM
Yeah, but "people" :) I'm not gonna give a guarantee if I can see a loophole
 
All is fair in love and war object-type arrays
@roganjosh sure, and especially here it's better to do that. So fair.
@MisterMiyagi actually I'm not sure how they are really managed under the hood, but I'm certain you don't need to know anything about that to avoid pitfalls
there's probably a page or five about memory management in the docs
I mostly mean that df.loc[thing, thang] will either always copy or it never will, given the same thing and thang
That's not a fact, just a strong expectation on my part.
 
@AndrasDeak "What Would Andras Tell Me" actually seems like an adequate working model for me to treat Pandas. :P
Guess I can life with the subtle nudge not to peek under the hood.
 
@MisterMiyagi bold move :P I only take responsibility for numpy
 
@MisterMiyagi I'll get some wristbands printed. WWAD
 
11:53 AM
@AndrasDeak The docs once described it that way (think of it like a SQL table) so it's not a bad mental model
Biggest difference is SQL uses tables (set based) while pandas uses matrixes (list based)
Well, technical pandas uses a mix of tables and matrixes (but matrixes are more of the primary structure)
 
@LinkBerest How is SQL set-based? Only if you set an index? I'm aware that I'm probably going to look stupid here
 
Because relational algebra is based on sets (technically SQL uses multisets)
 
12:09 PM
@LinkBerest The second paragraph is giving me a headache.
That seems circular.
 
What does?
 
The reasoning that relations must be union-compatible. Though on further pondering, it seems not to be a reasoning at all.
 
Oh, yeah. Relational algebra makes other parts of discrete math look simple (at least from my experience)
 
12:55 PM
Someone help me out real quick, isn't there a way to document default values for function parameters? I thought putting :default param_name: None in the docstring would work, but apparently not
 
I take it the actual default values don't get rendered nicely in sphinx? Or do you have defaults set in the body?
 
My default value is inspect.Parameter.empty :(
 
okay? :)
 
(i.e. the sentinel that means "no default value")
 
12:57 PM
metaprogramming problems
 
Is this some wacky introspection game? Naively I'd think that "no default value" is conveyed by not setting a default value
 
@Aran-Fey I've switched to manually defining most Sphinx signatures due to such problems.
Typing is another offender for making Sphinx signatures unreadable.
 
user13894237
I need help
 
user13894237
Can i link the stack over flow post
 
@questionboi if you ask that wait for an answer
 
user13894237
1:10 PM
ok
 
@AndrasDeak Yes, autodoc generates the documentation automagically by analyzing your module. It uses inspect.signature to determine function signatures, and can't tell the difference between a parameter like foo and foo=inspect.Parameter.empty
 
@questionboi The answer is no, please read our rules to understand why.
 
user13894237
why does this look ancient
 
@Aran-Fey I mean why do you need inspect.Parameter.empty rather than no default? Do you have a two-sentence explanation? I don't expect you to give me a metaprogramming 101 :)
 
blergh, got late to work even though I hurried and botched my bug report. Oh well, sphinx devs probably won't care about the report anyway, like usual
 
1:11 PM
@Aran-Fey you can make up for it by spending the rest of your work hours polishing the bug report
 
hah, that would be even less productive than my real work!
 
@AndrasDeak Uh, well, because I want my parameter to have a default value :) Basically, I'm subclassing inspect.Parameter, which accepts a default parameter - which is that parameter's default value. If no default value is provided, the inspect.Parameter.empty sentinel is used. So my __init__ looks like def __init__(name, default=inspect.Parameter.empty), but autodoc thinks it's def __init__(name, default)
@MisterMiyagi There's a config value that lets you disable type annotations in signatures
 
@Aran-Fey But I don't want them to be disabled, I want them readable.
 
That's possible?
 
1:20 PM
If you write them yourself, yes ^^
 
So is there no way to document default values in the docstring at all? That's... surprising
 
Compare Callable[[T], Awaitable[T]] versus (T) -> await T for example. There's a reason that stenotype parser exists... :D
 
Ah, inventing your own syntax certainly helps
 
@Aran-Fey RTD recommends :param: wordy words of wisdom, defaults to "Cheesecake"
I've never seen that before, TBH
 
Hmm, I need to test whether autodoc picks up on that. Probably not
 
1:44 PM
@Aran-Fey Your lack of joyful triumph implies "not", does it?
 
nah, I just can't test it while at work
 
@LinkBerest If I'm understanding correctly, we'd say that SQL was "set based" because of joins etc., to filter results?
I think I've come to terms with the distinction, in a wishy-washy way
 
Cabbage. I've just been catching up on various chat transcripts. There was some interesting convos between various mods in the MSE Tavern a day or so ago. Shog joined in here: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8459184#8459184
 
2:05 PM
stackoverflow.com/q/60208887/4799172 dupe. I guess my original vote aged away?
Also, take note @toonarmycaptain :P
Closed, thanks PM
 
No worries. I guess that dupe is ok, the OP seemed to like it. :) But I better write a comment to tell Anders_k that we don't post dupe links as answers.
 
@roganjosh Duly bookmarked the dupe, as I'm sure I'll have that question in a week or two lol
 
:P
 
typo stackoverflow.com/questions/62825505/…, see first comment on question and answer
@Aran-Fey thanks for the attempt, I'll read about inspect.Parameter and try to understand
@PM2Ring nice read, thanks. Nothing I didn't know already, though
@roganjosh I think so: close review "invalidated" at midnight stackoverflow.com/posts/60208887/timeline
 
2:27 PM
@AndrasDeak I figured you might have. But it was kinda interesting to have it all condensed like that. Before Shog arrived, there was stuff about the mod council & new mod agreement, with a couple of comments from Yaakov & Cat.
 
In any case it's always a delight to read Shog provide his two cents
 
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, Jun 22 at 12:14, by PM 2Ring
The great wizard, Shog the Grey, was tossed off Durin's bridge while fighting a balrog. But he has returned as Shog the White, with the awesome ability to say things that he couldn't say before.
 
"Shog. Yes, that's what they used to call me"
 
Exactly
 
Dumbest quote in the films (I'm not talking The Hobbit because I had therapy to forget)
 
2:38 PM
I only watched the 1st LOTR film. There was no way I'd attempt to watch The Hobbit films.
 
Oh, I'll take the flak for saying that the LOTR films are fantastic
 
boooo
 
I don't blame Jackson for changing things to make LOTR more appealing. OTOH, I believe the films would still have been successful if they were more faithful to the books.
 
@AndrasDeak boooo to you, too!
 
They might be fantastic, but they are a lot worse than the books
 
2:42 PM
Ok, burden's on you to find the superlative to "fantastic"
 
I still haven't seen Hobbit...read LotR 30+ times when I was younger, and watched the dvd extras many times.
 
@roganjosh I'll share some of that flak, and I'd also say that the movies would have been significantly worse if they had stayed more faithful to the books
 
@Arne what is in its pocketses? Assssspressions, yess?
 
._.
 
The films were by no means perfect, but as adaptations to feature films, I thought they were great. I think 6x 2-2.5 hr movies, like the 6 books (3 volumes) might have improved things. I'll also put my vote in for Tom Bombadil being a separate musical, on stage or film.
 
2:45 PM
y'got me, guess I stay in a cave now
 
@Arne as long as there are cold-water fishesss there, precious :P
 
who is shog? Does he have some close contacts in so?
 
Nooo, you've got my corner @Arne. Stay strong
 
@Hakaishin not anymore
 
haha, I can imagine after reading a bit that was posted earlier
so the downfall of so slowly begins
 
2:46 PM
Lol
 
@Arne my primary beef with the movies (apart from Hollywood silliness) is the "You ate all the lembas, go home Sam" bit
@Hakaishin "begins"
 
@AndrasDeak oh, that wasn't in the books? seems I need to brush up my lotr facts before I can seriously join the talks in this room
 
@Arne yeah, it's insane!
Frodo was dumb but not evil at all
 
guess it needed a bit more tension to be a proper film finale
 
Probably...all the dramas
 
2:49 PM
@Hakaishin Shog9 was a long-term SO employee, a greatly respected Community Manager, who got sacked without warning several months ago. Here's an example of the kind of stuff he used to post: meta.stackexchange.com/q/225370/334566
 
Oh, and they changed "you cannot pass" to "you shall not pass" for whatever sad reason :( Just to spite Tolkien's ghost, presumably.
 
@AndrasDeak I think some of those sort of bits were meant to stand in for more complex psych stuff where the Ring was affecting him, which are more fleshed out in the books.
 
@toonarmycaptain you mean cutting corners rather doing a good job adapting a book? Yeah, probably.
 
@Arne My mum cried thrice in the first film. I mean, she needs to get a grip, but what more drama would you unleash?
 
@AndrasDeak I didn't feel it was a bad adaptation at all. I get that tradeoffs were made.
 
2:52 PM
@toonarmycaptain yeah, but some were pointless and arbitrary. Like the "cannot pass" part. Or sending elves to Helm's Deep. Or making Arwen be responsible for the flash flood.
 
oh the last one makes sense
having yet another elf in there would have been a bit much, since it would have also invited the discussion of why he couldn't join the fellowship
but damn, did you learn all the inconsistencies by heart or do you have a list somewhere?
 
@AndrasDeak I wouldn't call him dumb, exactly. Young & naive, sure. But he was pretty well educated, and knew stuff that your average hobbit wouldn't, thanks to Uncle Bilbo.
 
Yeah, I wasn't talking about education or even IQ. More like oblivious to his weakness or something.
In any case he wouldn't have sent Sam home, and probably wouldn't have believed Gollum in the first place.
But anyway, python, right? :P
 
@AndrasDeak I heard an interview saying "cannot" was changed for the benefit of US audiences, much like Philosopher was changed to Sorcerer.
 
@toonarmycaptain I was a little disappointed with the lack of Tom Bombadil... and Goldberry.
 
2:58 PM
@PM2Ring Oh, that would have just been terrible
 
I get objections to Helm's deep, I think that was to stand in for battles Elves were fighting in Moria etc, rather than having them seem completely uninvolved apart from Legolas.
 
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