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00:22
@wim And if you don't have the time, make time. At least Python's situation isn't as scary as JavaScript's NPM insanity. AFAIK...
we don't install a dependency for swap_every_other_character
yay free census badge
Did you finish the survey?
then it wasn't free...
00:27
oh, nothing's free if you read the fine print :D
I think you could skip to the last page and still get the badge
I filled about 10%
I've never done any of those surveys because I'm only an amateur hobbyist coder.
I filled out some of the interesting ones only
@PM2Ring I'm barely more to be honest. SO is allegedly for anyone who codes.
then again the developer survey less so, I guess
@AndrasDeak At least some of your coding is work-related.
00:30
if you have written the bare minimum of a hello world program, you are qualified to take the developer survey
@PM2Ring yeah, that's true
Oh, ok. I got the impression from remarks here during the last few surveys that it was mostly focused on professionals.
I got a bunch of questions about my manager and company...
but I did claim to be a dev (I think?)
@coldspeed I suppose there aren't a large number of SO users who've been coding for almost 50 years. ;)
TBH, I can't remember whether I first learned BASIC in 1970 or 71, but it was only on paper. I didn't get access to an actual machine until August 1973, when I learned PL/I.
00:43
cbg
How's your back
It's back. To normal. Thanks for asking.
wim
wim
01:11
@AndrasDeak :D
 
1 hour later…
02:22
@wim Software dependency problem is a great read so far thanks. Another problem is bloat. For example, trying to go serverless and use AWS lambda functions but you have so many package imports you run out of room for your actual code
Ah that's mentioned towards the end:
'Creeping dependencies can also affect the size of your project'
the scary thing is this one could truly recurse forever
well, at least until we reach the bootstrap c compiler made to compile c code from machine language
02:41
@malan I don't visit U&L much these days, but it's very satisfying to VTC Kali questions with that dupe target.
03:17
Guys, how can I do what this website is doing (or at least I think doing). I want to embed my jupyter projects into a website in a similar format.

http://pbpython.com/visualization-tools-1.html
Searching around has been a bit more confusing then not, is he just simulating the experience and this isn't really possible with Jupyter atm?
 
4 hours later…
07:33
@Skyler AFAI can see the website is using this github.com/robulouski/voidy-bootstrap along with bootstrap (CSS framework) & jQuery, nothing else (maybe a tinsy custom CSS here & there).
weekend cbg for all!
 
3 hours later…
10:18
@Skyler I'm not sure what you're trying to do but either of these might be relevant: stackoverflow.com/questions/45384616/… ipywidgets.readthedocs.io/en/stable/embedding.html (latter is for a specific interactive widget library)
10:49
@AndrasDeak The OP has edited, but it's stilll no MCVE, and there's no data.
11:09
I posted that post-edit
Yeah, I figured that. I was posting that info for the benefit of other readers. Pity there's no simple way of linking to a message without making it look like a reply to the poster.
11:24
So... Duff's device is basically a glorified series of gotos, right? More so than switch-case usually is, I mean.
@AndrasDeak Yep. It's mostly mind-boggling because of how it interleaves the while & switch. And how C lets you jump into the middle of the while block like that.
12:09
C is a mess
12:23
C is ok if you know what you're doing. Although I must admit I'm a bit out of touch, and haven"t kept up with changes in the language in the last decade or so.
Also, like most early C users, I came to C from assembler, which gives you a different perspective. I expect that these days most coders who know some assembler learned C/C++ first.
12:42
One big problem with C is the attitude "it works on my system, with my compiler, so it must be ok". That undermines C's incredible portability, since it means your code may be exploiting undefined behaviour. And the code may behave differently on the same machine, and OS, compiled with the same version of the same compiler, just because you chose different optimization settings. The compiler doesn't define the language, the standards docs do.
13:20
@AndrasDeak Syntactically, yes, but (and I couldn't find this when I looked for it again) what was significant about duff's device when Duff invented it (working for lucasfilm) is that it was significantly faster than what they had previously been trying to do (without the hacky syntax).
cbg btw
In the C programming language, Duff's device is a way of manually implementing loop unrolling by interleaving two syntactic constructs of C: the do-while loop and a switch statement. Its discovery is credited to Tom Duff in November 1983, when Duff was working for Lucasfilm and used it to speed up a real-time animation program. Loop unrolling attempts to reduce the overhead of conditional branching needed to check whether a loop is done, by executing a batch of loop bodies per iteration. To handle cases where the number of iterations is not divisible by the unrolled-loop increments, a commo...
That's the performance section.
So I think I'm starting to understand this Python name v variable thing (haven't finished my reading yet).
It reminds me of
> Scotty: [mutters] Get out of it... [reads the equation and gapes] Imagine that! It never occurred to me to think of space as the thing that was moving!
Cabbage @malan
Cabbage
Did you get the thing about why a += b is sometimes different to a = a + b ?
That's where I'm still confused. I get that the names point to memory addresses and the memory address the name points to changes, which is what reminds me of star trek.
The memory address changes to the same address in both cases.
Is hte significance only when you add two names?
Ok. I'll look at your dpaste in a sec. In the mean time, here's another way to describe the same thing:
13:34
@malan you should also be aware of the integer cache
That will cause inconsistent behaviour for smaller numbers and larger numbers when it comes to id()
Here's the other case dpaste.de/2cMO
cbg btw
@roganjosh So I need to experiment with bigger numbers.
> 256
Above 256 or below -5, yes
a = a + b always evaluates the sum and the resulting object then gets bound to the name a, and the previous a object will be deleted if it has no other names.
13:36
The cache has thrown a nice spanner in the works re: your understanding :)
Yes yes. Now I bind x and y to 257 they're different memory addresses
And x stays the same after x += y so inplace.
Where in x = x + y becomes a new object.
New memory address*
With a += b, if a is a mutable object, then that object is mutated, no new object is created. If a is immutable, then a += b behaves identically to a = a + b
No, += with an immutable object gives a new memory address.
^ that's not the same address. The last 3 digits happen to be the same
13:41
Haha. Had to look at the fine print.
Then what's the actual difference between x = x+y and x += y?
Although I don't know whether it's impossible for the same address. I assume it is, and the GC comes after
Oh, it's significant only for mutable objects like lists.
With immutable objects like int's it's not significant at all.
So if x is a list x = x + y is less efficient than x += y
Thinking in terms of memory addresses is ok, if you come from a C-like language. But it's better to embrace Python's datamodel on its own terms. Ultimately, it's less confusing that way. :) True, in CPython, the id() function returns an object's memory address, but that's just an implementation detail.
So just think if the id as the object id?
In other words, abstract it from hardware?
@malan Yes, and in-place operations have big implications in numpy because that's usually where speed matters and you don't want to be copying things around all the time if it can be avoided
13:44
I actually come from java --> bad c (i.e., just the syntax) --> bad php --> Python
Alright, I understand.
I prefer to think of Python objects as living in Magic Object Land, and the id's just some random serial number in temporary use during the lifetime of that object.
I typically use += for everything anyway.
@PM2Ring I think MOL should be a technical term in Python.
:D
If you think in terms of pointers, there's the danger of slipping back into the "variable as a box" datamodel, which will lead you astray.
Haha, that's how I was thinking about it last night, and the integer caching was causing me to think of Scotty's space-as-the-thing-moving thing.
Which I thought was really cool.
That x = 23 and y = 23 both have the same id's , and modifying one simply changes the id, tripped me out.
In "variable as a box" languages, each box has a type associated with it, and only compatible values are permitted in the box.
13:49
In Python, the name points to an object, and the object is created and destroyed.
In Python, our "variables" are simply nametags. The type information is a property of the object itself, not of the nametag(s) you attach to it.
Shiva the Object Destroyer
@PM2Ring Duck typing.
Sometimes, people from "variable is a box" languages, who don't know or understand Python's datamodel say that Python is weakly typed, because they expect the type info to be attached to the name. But actually, Python is extremely strongly-typed. If you do insane things, and you know Python internals really well, its possible to change the type of a Python object, but it's not a useful thing to do.
Anyway, I'll stop typing for a minute so I can go back & read your messages properly. :)
finally got chat privilege (taps own back).
No, it's ok PM. I get it now. I've definitely seen strong typing in Python, e.g. where x is a string and y is an int I can get yelled at by the interpreter when I try to concatenate them.
Though I stand by my earlier assertion that much of the Python community is too conservative about new features! Of course, on the other hand, Java is far too liberal.
14:02
@roganjosh It definitely gives a new object (in theory), but id's can be recycled. And with cached / interned immutables, actual objects may be recycled, but once again, that's just an implementation detail.
@TPguru Welcome!
@TPguru cbg and welcome
@PM
@PM2Ring my thinking there was that the previous ID would still be occupied by the old x value during the += steps and that the GC probably couldn't come and free that memory until after the whole thing has completed
@TPguru It's probably a Good Idea to read our room rules, linked up on the top right of the page.
@roganjosh I would think that would be more efficient. Like caching.
14:04
oops, sorry... thanks for the welcome. Will read the rules.
But it might lead to memory leaks in improper exiting, no?
Unless you're using the mobile version, where the rules are invisible.
@malan I don't know a whole lot about the GC tbh. I prefer to just throw rubbish over my shoulder and it disappears.
Litterer.
Don't know much about gc myself, actually.
TBH, I'm pretty good at talking above my level, generally. I've never even done a malloc in c.
It's just that python has done a fantastic job of abstracting the process away so that it really takes a determined effort to understand it. I'm not sure I've ever found a case where I need to understand it in any real detail.
14:10
Agreed. Big part of it's attraction to me.
When I started out and got confused about IPython holding lots of things in memory, I used to use gc.collect() and determined that it did nothing and I couldn't sway its hand. Now I look back in some dismay of my thought process.
@malan Nice Shiva-Shakti painting. I'd like to say Om namah shivaya, in Devanagari, but it'd take me too long to figure out how to do it on my phone. ;)
Haha. Just a google image search :-P
@roganjosh For an immutable, once its performed the addition in a += b, a new object has been created (or recycled from the cache), so it could trash the old a, but I'm pretty sure that in CPython the current statement completes before any memory recycling occurs.
@malan In pure Python, memory leaks are basically impossible. However, many Python modules (including standard library modules) use compiled C code, where it is possible to do Bad Things, although even there it's unlimely to get mem leaks if you'rs just manjpulating Python objects at tbe C level, and following the proper protocol.
In which case it should be impossible for the new object to share the same id as it did before +=.
dis.dis('x += y')
  1           0 LOAD_NAME                0 (x)
              2 LOAD_NAME                1 (y)
              4 INPLACE_ADD
              6 STORE_NAME               0 (x)
              8 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
             10 RETURN_VALUE
I guess the GC would somehow have to run at INPLACE_ADD prior to storing the value and it happened to get the same memory address
14:25
Style note: officially "GC" is for reference cycles. What happens all the time is reference counting
OTOH, some modules take data from those Python objects & go off and do pure C stuff with it. And in that situation, you're prey to all the unsafe things that shoddy C code can do.
@PM2Ring How does Python (or any C-program) prevent memory leaks due to improper exiting? I.e., hitting <ctrl-c> multiple times, or, even worse, kill -9, for instance (if I properly understand that to be the "don't even wait for the program to clean up" signal)
No good name for "gc-like process that eats objects with no references"
^ which I was just gonna ask :P
@malan memory leaks happen while a process is running, right?
14:27
My understanding is that memory leaks happen when a program allocates memory (e.g., using malloc), and then never close the memory allocation.
While it's running
Modern languages have "Garbage Collection" which you just described in a way I don't fully understand, that already deallocate the memory for you.
OS should reclaim after termination
No.
No? OK.
14:28
You eventually have to restart the computer to deallocate the memory.
Which is why they are dangerous.
I'm wrong. Modern OS's mitigate this.
In computer science, a memory leak is a type of resource leak that occurs when a computer program incorrectly manages memory allocations in such a way that memory which is no longer needed is not released. A memory leak may also happen when an object is stored in memory but cannot be accessed by the running code. A memory leak has symptoms similar to a number of other problems and generally can only be diagnosed by a programmer with access to the program's source code. A space leak occurs when a computer program uses more memory than necessary. In contrast to memory leaks, where the leaked...
reassuring ;)
There are millions of stories about Windows, back in the day, getting so many memory leaks the only solution was always to just restart the computer.
@malan You aren"t sending the ^C or kill directly to your Python script. You're sending it to the interpreter. And the interpreter has traps for the signals, so it can do appropriate clean-up operations before it does what the signal is asking it to do.
You can still leak from a system process. I had something in the kernel leak a year back
Right, but that reduces the 'attack vector' if you can call it that. It limits serious persistent memory leaks to the base-level kernel, and not "Any program you ever run" which is how I'd thought.
@PM2Ring Right, but I thought there were ways to terminate signals that prevent the program from running that clean up, including the interpreter.
I thought that's what kill -9 did.
Attack surface may have been the better term. But that's still wrong. Bug Surface?
14:58
@malan True, you can't trap SIGKILL. But on Linux, the kernal will free any memory, and close open file handles on program exit, so that's not an issue. But SIGKILL will stop any atexit handlers from executing, so it's preferable to try sending SIGTERM first, and only send SIGKILL as a last resort.
A regular kill will do that, right? Which is what I go for first. I rarely do that anyway. I usually just ctrl-c because I"m not a big background process runner anyway.
That's one thing I miss from Linux; going in for the kill. Opening Task Manager and clicking End Process feels boring in comparison
Doing it with Gunicorn and killing the workers, you've got yourself a shooting range
Python has a fairly sophisticated memory management strategy. It allocates a number of so-called arenas, and grabs memory from an arena when it needs to create an object. When the object is no longer needed, it's returned to the arena
Though I have got better at identifying the master process and doing it in one command now
This way, it rarely makes slow system calls to malloc or free memory.
15:05
Modern C (which I've never used) doesn't even require malloc, right?
Like, you can allocate variable-length arrays with the regular array syntax now, can't you?
Also, never really got clear on the difference between malloc and calloc.
Or what you're supposed to use to get input from the user.
@malan Correct. SIGTERM is the default if no signal is specified.
Hi,is there any way to get how much red is in an image? using opencv
I have an image I want to have a number that shows me how much of one color is available
@malan Yes, you can, but that only happens when the array is initialised. So if your logic needs to do repeated allocations & deallocations of the same variable, then you either organize things with that variable in a block or function that gets entered each time you need a new block, and exited when you want to free the block. Or you do it the old-fasioned way with malloc & free.
@Saha Not familiar with how opencv works, but you might try searching for how to get the rgb value of a given pixel, then get sum it or average it for all pixels
@malan got it,thanks
15:15
@malan calloc merely zeroes the newly-allocated block before it returns it to you. Otherwise, it contains random garbage.
@PM2Ring Interesting, it would seem I need to get more familiar with these facets of C.
@PM2Ring Ah, so malloc is more efficient and requires conscientious use.
Can you allocate arrays of variable size without malloc?
@malan Yep. More efficient, but if you attempt to read from that block before you've written to that part of the block you get the dreaded undefined behaviour. It's not exactly an error, because in some circumstances there are valid reasons to do that.
Eg, on tiny embedded systems it may be a way to get random seed data. But generally, it's a Bad Thing to do, and as far as the C standard's concerned, the compiler's entitled to do anything when you invoke undefined behaviour. It could wipe your hard drive, send a magic self-destruct command to the CPU, print bizarre cat pictures, or detonate a thermonuclear device. ;)
@AndrasDeak Sure. You pass an int as the array size in the array declaration. It's a C99 feature.
Anyway, my hand's beginning to cramp up, and I woke up 22 hours ago, so I'm starting to drift off.
Rhubarb
15:30
rhubarb
Rhubarb
Go to sleep. :-)
I don't think Andras sleeps
Hola amigo
cabbage amigo
cabbage cabbage.
15:37
Hola cabbage
that is strange I don't find where is the link to chat.stackoverflow.com in stackoverflow ui
Keep it secret. Keep it safe.
hi @PM2Ring
repollo.
That's actually hilarious. If pollo is chicken, cabbage is like re-chicken.
15:50
rhubarb = ruibarbo
More sensible.
Andras' rhubarb is wilting. It lasts 10 minutes tops
missed it @AndrasDeak
@XavierCombelle not your fault
@roganjosh context
For yam's sake. I completely misread. It's me that needs the sleep.
Hmm, I cancelled a long reload on a page and get a modal called "invalid popup".
I am writing flask tests and am so irritated by how many deprecation warnings get generated by upstream dependency code.
16:03
such as?
tests/test_users.py::test_login_logout
  /home/malan/projects/icc/venv/lib/python3.7/site-packages/wtforms/form.py:212: FlaskWTFDeprecationWarning: "csrf_enabled" is deprecated and will be removed in 1.0. Set "meta.csrf" instead.
Is the most frequent one
I'd probably respond to that deprecation warning and fix the code. Others you might be able to disable. You're already using a venv
What code, though? I don't use csrf_enabled anywhere in my code.
So you only get this in test cases?
Yeah.
I remember reading a github issue that basically said we have to live with the deprecation warning.
I don't get it.
16:07
No, I don't in that case either
PyYaml has one too
  /home/malan/projects/icc/venv/lib/python3.7/site-packages/yaml/constructor.py:126: DeprecationWarning: Using or importing the ABCs from 'collections' instead of from 'collections.abc' is deprecated, and in 3.8 it will stop working
    if not isinstance(key, collections.Hashable):
But I only get that once.
github.com/lepture/flask-wtf/issues/313 Implies that I should be setting the meta thing when defining a form but I find that strange. Perhaps I don't fully understand flask_wtf because I create a form with class Form(FlaskForm): which is imported directly from flask_wtf
> Without any configuration, the :class:FlaskForm will be a session secure form with csrf protection. We encourage you do nothing.
16:13
I don't use Flask-wtf so that's a blind spot for me, sorry
Np. I'm thinking I should open an issue? I don't see how I'm doing anything to trip that Warning, and yet, there it is.
I guess it makes sense that it gets propagated to you even if it's not your responsibility. So I'm not sure.
I'm thinking, for a moment, that what might be going on is I'm using a deprecated method of calling the token in the template that might trigger it? I'll test it out by changing from {{ form.hidden_tag() }} to {{ form.csrf_token() }} which seems to be endorsed by the docs. I can't find that issue page about the deprecation warning being something we have to live with yet.
Well if you don't use flask-wtf you need <input type="hidden" name="csrf_token" value="{{ csrf_token() }}"> so that would be consistent I guess
Holdon, so csrf_token() is a flask method and not a wtf method?
16:21
AFAIK. And I'm not entirely sure why it's a method at all.
I'm unsure why you would think it wasn't useful? Although, I'm unsure why it's in Flask general and not WTF specifically, considering you only need it for POST routes, right?
I guess if you hand code forms...
How do you handle forms?
In HTML but with Jinja2 rendering. My site is a dashboard to a simulator, and every action by anyone (with access rights) affects the global state of the simulator
So there is nothing that fits nicely into an ORM that I can see. I want to say that the changes are not "atomic" (meaning that they only reflect the experience of the individual user). In reality, the state of the simulation parameters can be set any which way
Not entirely following. You mean like it's a constantly-running program that changes globally in real time from anyone interacting with it?
Meaning that the simulator is one program that runs entirely separate from the site, checking a DB every 10 secs to see if someone has submitted a simulation. Each simulation submitted gets its own database
Is this a scientific application?
16:29
Yes, it's a machine scheduling problem, and I want a dashboard to interact with it anywhere in the factory
That's pretty cool.
It's fascinating to me the use cases that flask gets.
Or web apps in general.
So it doesn't really fit into the usual use-case of Flask. Hence I ditched the ORM. :)
I've had an idea for a month now to write a simple note-taking app resembling passwordstore.org but with a flask web server to render the notes in markdown whenever you wanted to review them. It feels like it would be lightweight and wouldn't need much code.
I increasingly feel like web apps are the way to solve most software problems.
Whatever the user sets as params, I take a snapshot of that state and queue it to be solved. It's not ideal because multiple users could keep changing params but thankfully there's actually only 1 primary user
So a user submits a form of params, you spin off a new db, and the program eventually computes that db param simulation?
Another example of a local web app using flask: beets.readthedocs.io/en/v1.3.17/plugins/web.html
16:36
The user can set any number of states they like. Shift patterns on a per-week basis, a different sales forecast, hypothetical machines. You name it. They set the params and then click "solve". I save the params of that setup and another script picks it up. They can then go change shift patterns and submit another problem. It will get queued until the first is solved
Each simulation gets its own SQLite DB as a snapshot of when they click "solve"
Clever. I mean, it doesn't sound like spinning off new DB's would be your bottleneck in the least, so it makes sense.
Plus you keep atomicity between the simulation params.
Each DB is about 8MB and you can delete unwanted simulations
Easily portable. You can back up select ones, etc. etc.
Yep. So you run as many scenarios as you like, find the one that works, "publish" it as a production plan and clear up all the ones that didn't work
Davidism, as one of the maintainers of Flask-WTF, do you have any input on the deprecation warning thing I'm experiencing?
tests/test_users.py::test_login_logout
  /home/malan/projects/icc/venv/lib/python3.7/site-packages/wtforms/form.py:212: FlaskWTFDeprecationWarning: "csrf_enabled" is deprecated and will be removed in 1.0. Set "meta.csrf" instead.
I don't set csrf_enabled, I just inherit the FlaskForm vanilla.
16:51
I can't reproduce your issue. Something in your code, or code you're using, is passing csrf_enabled to a FlaskForm.
This is the implementation, there's only one way that warning happens: github.com/lepture/flask-wtf/blob/master/flask_wtf/form.py#L79
I've started thinking it's calling the token with {{ form.hidden_tag() }} in the jinja2 templates. Is that absolutely not the way to do it?
I mean, because I'm calling it with that.
hidden_tag has nothing to do with that warning.
"I'm calling it with that"... you just said you don't set csrf_enabled. So which is it?
No, I mean, in the jinja2 template I'm embedding the token with {{ form.hidden_tag() }} instead of {{ form.csrf_token() }} which I've seen in the docs.
Neither of those raise that warning.
So I need to look through my code for something that's tripping it. In other words, it's not just something to live with.
Will keep investigating.
I feel like an idiot, because I've found it.
Thanks.
Just had to grep.
17:24
hi @davidism, was a long time since I were here
BTW, davidism, I want to thank you for helping me. It's pretty amazing to me to be able to ask the maintainer of the framework I use a dumb question and get an answer. I appreciate it greatly.
17:55
American friends: is there a distinction between "practice" and "practise"?
Yes. We don't say practise
They are pronounced the same way.
Yes. But in America we don't use the word practise. At all.
In fact, my spellchecker in this input box doesn't like it.
I'm not sure I appreciate the spellcheck error when I know what I meant to write :/
The distinction is solely British.
We can thank Noah Webster for simplifying some of our spellings.
17:59
We basically invented the language (ignoring basically all of history)
Lol.
We just cleaned it up :-P
Well, you guys made a mess of things too. "gas" to refer to something that is a liquid.
Haha, true. And "kid" to refer to a child.
No, I'll spare you that. In the North of England, "our (pronounced arr) kid" could literally refer to anyone close to the speaker
Usually a sibling but maybe a close friend. Who knows? Gotta take the context-clues on that one. Never an actual young child, though
18:05
There are some dialects of American English which do similarly horrid things.
I won't name names.
Steven Pinker had a fascinating assertion that most vernaculars that are disparaged as "slangy" are in fact more grammatically consistent (within themselves) than academic English.
That needs reviewing in light of the garbage that is used on social media
I think he was talking about spoken dialects, but good point.
I'm pretty sure " hOlLa " is neither grammatically (nor punctually) correct.
Okay, I put asterisks for sparkles, but it rendered markdown.
@AndrasDeak since you enjoy your Brexit pops, ibb.co/1XfSrXn :P
What is Guadalupe?
A group of islands
18:18
> Guadeloupe, like the other overseas departments, is an integral part of France. As a constituent territory of the European Union and the Eurozone, the euro[3] is its official currency and any European Union citizen is free to settle and work there indefinitely. As an overseas department, however, it is not part of the Schengen Area.
So still in the EU? And looking to be doing fine?
@roganjosh haha, burn
> No member state has as of yet withdrawn from the EU (or the EC);
Three territories of EU member states have withdrawn: French Algeria (in 1962, upon independence),[2] Greenland (in 1985, following a referendum)[3] and Saint Barthélemy (in 2012),[4] the latter two becoming Overseas Countries and Territories of the European Union.
I'm confused
It's reclaimed territory as far as I understand
So ceded by the EU
Guadeloupe was an extension of Saint Barthélemy because, frankly, I'd not heard of it
> Saint Barthélemy was for many years a French commune forming part of Guadeloupe, which is an overseas region and department of France. In 2003, the island voted in favour of secession from Guadeloupe in order to form a separate overseas collectivity (COM) of France.
> Saint Barthélemy ceased being an outermost region and left the EU, to become an OCT, on 1 January 2012.
This all goes back to the quiz question I posted ages ago. "What is the largest country in the world?"
So, not Guadaloupe per se, just an island formerly in Guadeloupe.
By what measure?
18:29
Land area
I'm assuming, from the fact that you're asking, that it is a trick question and the answer is not, indeed, Russia.
It's not
Canada?
Except, by most measures, it is Russia.
18:30
Nope
I am presuming it's France from overseas holdings?
When you search, most lists say Russia
Most measurements probably don't include territories.
When I searched over a year ago, it was France. Now I can't replicate.
There must be some incredibly large French holdings. What are they?
18:33
Reunion, tons of islands in the Carribean and S. Pacific, etc.
Is French Guyana still a territory?
Possibly some countries in Africa, though I suspect not.
> 3 | France* | 551,695 | 643,801 when the overseas departments are included.
So it still loses.
> Russia (39.0%)
Ukraine (5.9%)
France (5.4%)
I mean, Russia is massive.
My god, I must have phrased this question incorrectly because France won over Russia/Canada easily when I last checked and it was a trick question
Maps can be deceiving, Russia looks much bigger than all of those things combined, so does Canada for that matter.
Interesting side note: what state has the longest coastline in the US Mainland? Not that you non-American fellas care... :-P )
18:36
That's the Mercator projection
Yes, but Russia truly is huge.
Right but still
Florida is the first guess but surely Alaska
Alaska isn't mainland, but it is Florida.
Something has changed. By some measure of "largest country", France won every time
Oh mainland oops
18:38
And now I can't replicate the search
Someone once told me it was Maine when you actually measure real coastline (i.e., every cove, etc.), but Florida blows it out of the water in that case.
Interesting: they have two measures on Wikipedia, and NOAA's is way bigger en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
Either the definition changed or France changed policy over what it considers to be its territory. I swear to god that you'd have a different answer a year ago.
^ Now that's an interesting measure.
Hahaha, in the comments
> Anonymous Anonymous said...

hate to brake it to ya russia is the biggest country in the world and canada is the second so i dont know what u are talking about

8:00 AM
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so YEAH LOLXD
8:01 AM
And this is why you never read the YouTube comments.
wim
wim
18:56
largest country in world or largest in europe?
for sure the big countries like australia, USA, brazil, china will be much much larger than france + territories
Either way it's Russia, we are discovering. But there is an interesting measure where you exclude unused land and then France dwarfs everyone else.
In the world, and I've not quite lost my mind yet; it was France
wim
wim
I can not think of any meaningful way to define "unused land"
Land that is not within 1.5 miles of a road.
It wasn't even based on that
18:58
@roganjosh We're still waiting :-P ;-)
wim
wim
@malan well now you have to define a road
Oh no.
Smallest imaginable definition* I.e., cow path.
Lol.
@malan there is nothing to say that I'm not wrong. I guess I could go digging round in wiki archives
wim
wim
I lived in France, it's comparatively tiny. You can drive anywhere in a day.
@roganjosh I am legitimately interested in it, so if you find something.
@wim We're including overseas territories.
Which brings France to third by most measures of Europe.
@wim BTW, read some of your homework assignment to me last night.
I get it.
wim
wim
19:01
I know, but they're not that big. You can includes all those little territories and you're still not gonna get anything like the size of Brazil or Australia
People who haven't lived there don't realise how the Southern hemisphere distances are like
because euro-centric map projections are distorting distances and areas there
I get that.
According to wikipedia
> 3 France* 551,695 643,801 when the overseas departments are included.
Which ranks in at 42
Hey, 42!
That figure makes no sense. More people than that live in Paris alone
Russia > Canada > China >US > Brazil > Australia
@roganjosh I thought we were talking about land area?
oh, ok
19:42
Well, rhubarb all.
Enjoyed talking about France, @roganjosh
19:56
recbg
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