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11:20
Gnnh, a 500k user answering an obvious dupe stackoverflow.com/questions/45482537/…
Wow - didn't realise MySQL did that (or rather doesn't do that) - how the heck has that never been changed???
morning cbg friends
anyone used antlr4 with python and made an ast?
Wow... haven't used anything like antlr/bison/lexx/yacc in a blue moon... so no...
11:34
good god...I never thought that there would have been a dupe for this
but yes....there are insane people out there who want boundless for loops
Umm... although the title is "loop from 1"... so the answer should be count(1) not just count()... anyway...
@MartijnPieters I was like "born in 2002, so they're 25, WOW I'm old!", then I watched one of the videos and I realized my off-by-one-decade error
if they end up understanding the dupe, they should be able to figure out how to play with the control.
Afternoon all
11:37
cbg
cbg wrong time zone person
EST is the one true time zone
come at me
@AndrasDeak that's the senility kicking in... that happens when you're ancient I hear :p
@AndrasDeak That's when you know you're gettin' old, when your off-by-ones move from units to tens
hehe :D
thank you, Elders
@idjaw EST, BST, what's a couple of lights on an LED display between friends.
@AndrasDeak Elders and Wisers, don't forget ;)
11:39
@JRichardSnape I'll let it pass this time...Snape.
indeed! ;)
@AndrasDeak no worries... we're ready to copy and paste when you do the "hey guys... I just saw born in 2002 and thought..." again :p
you saw nothing *magician hand wave*
rbrb for a doggo while
are you confusing magicians with jedi there?
yes, those are 7 human whiles
11:42
/me this is not the doggo you are looking for...
hello
in this answer(stackoverflow.com/a/43357954/3646408) why is nargs specified?
It's how many "things" can appear after "--nice"... IIRC - "?" is one or more
There are also two links in that answer that explain things
11:44
And a related sentence "One (indirectly related) downside with that approach is that the 'nargs' might catch a positional argument"
nAaAaAaAaAargs
(sorry that's all that goes in my head when I read nargs)
@Idjaw sighs... I thought I'd swapped your coffee for decaf...
so did I.....that's why I had two @JonClements
someone switched the decaf out
11:46
@idjaw ...gallons?
and Snape is in the room......
I smell shenanigans
In the question, OP is passing just one argument. Without nargs, would it avoid the disadvantage mentioned? It will then catch only 1 argument, right?
Lunch. Thinking of songs for nargs now. Currently stuck on Hey Jude. "nargs, nargs, nargs, na na na nargs"
have you played around with it at all?
@JRichardSnape :D
goingfor --nice lunch
11:48
take care @JRichardSnape
What is a better approach action='store_true' or parse the string and decide?
@Abhishek whatever solves the problem you need to solve :)
^^
solve your problem. Play around with it yourself. Don't be afraid to experiment
don't treat code like porcelain. Do whatever you want with it
if you have a question like "what if I do this".....just do it.
Porcelain... just reminded me of Moby for some reason... haven't heard that in ages...
I'm killing it today
today....I...am....killing.....it
11:51
Did nike give the marketing department the day off and leave their new ad to the intern :p
yes. I'm trying to squeeze out as much damage as possible.
recbg
doggo didn't feel like going to the park during "38 degrees steaming thermometer" weather
smart doggo
Both work....tangential question, which books in python did you guys read while starting? I have read only the official tutorial right now. I wanted to read a intermediate book to better understand the design principles, I have just started Fluent Python. What do you guys suggest? :)
11:58
beyond that if you are looking for software principles, design patterns. I would say step away from explicit Python-things and look at more design approaches in general.
@AaronHall wellactually it's "mellon", and in Sindarin
@SachinfromPune mysql is like a naughty child. Tell them "collect your toys from the floor". They say "will do" - they understand what you mean by it - but then do nothing. The solution is to stop using such a childish database and use a mature solution such as PostgreSQL — Antti Haapala 1 min ago
@idjaw what course would that be? I am not a systems guy. There are two courses in my university one called Programming Language and Translators and other called Design using C++. If possible can you tell me which is better fit?
don't forget to keep practicing your generic problem solving skills, Abhishek
both
if you need to pick one, pick the one that is more abstract :D
C++ rots brain
4
12:10
"design using c++" sounds scary
well, it sounds like: "design using a hammer"... which is quite a different thing from "design using pen and paper"
I guess it could be ok if they use a sane subset of C++ to illustrate & implement the designs.
perhaps it means Graphic Design
if I had to guess I'd expect it to be closer to the "functional python" thing from yesterday
I can't speak for either of those courses but general problem solving skills, design patterns and data structures
Those are key
@PM2Ring there is no sane subset of C++
12:18
:)
the C++ is sane language only if you use all the template carp and such...
one that doesn't compile
without templates it is not sane.
C++ is Turing Complete so in principle it is sane if any single Turing Complete language exists that is sane, since you can just emulate that.
Your C++ program might be, like char[] actualProgram = "import sys; \n def f(): [...] print('Hello, World!');"; executeProgram(actualProgram), but as long as it works right
@Kevin C++ metaprogramming is turing complete
so you can ask g++ to execute python code...
12:23
I've seen a couple articles on that topic and my reaction is consistently "well it's nice they're finding ways to amuse themselves"
Template metaprogramming (TMP) is a metaprogramming technique in which templates are used by a compiler to generate temporary source code, which is merged by the compiler with the rest of the source code and then compiled. The output of these templates include compile-time constants, data structures, and complete functions. The use of templates can be thought of as compile-time execution. The technique is used by a number of languages, the best-known being C++, but also Curl, D, and XL. Template metaprogramming was, in a sense, discovered accidentally. Some other languages support similar, if not...
I want to ask "do people actually use nontrivial amounts of template metaprogramming in actual code, or is this an academic curiosity?" but "nontrivial" is ill-defined to the point that I don't think I'd get a straight answer
do anyone use haskell for non-trivial programs?!
It's like, yes, it's very cool that you can execute the Game of Life at compile time, but are you likely to find it in the Linux kernel's source?
... after all, haskell programs, they're just one function!
12:30
Bad example, since the kernel isn't written in C++, but perhaps you get my point
@AnttiHaapala You tell me ;-)
12:53
@AnttiHaapala Facebook
morning everyone
@Kevin, obviously stuff like Game of Life is just a curiosity, but TMP is a compile time language on types, so it's used heavily if you need to do complicated transformations on types
My strict TDD experiment seems to be going well
for example, Eigen, which uses TMP to vectorize operations so A = B * C + D, where those are all huge matrices, performs as fast as a hand written optimized loop
My coworkers make fun of me but it's going well
12:57
or Boost::Units, which builds dimensional analysis into the typechecker
Ok, that sounds sufficiently nontrivial-yet-useful. Thanks :-)
Eigen is one useful thingy
makes linear algebra almost bearable with c++
Javascript is better than C++
I'd hate to do linear algebra with JS
I mean in general
13:14
@Kevin Yakk loves doing pretty fancy stuff with templates. I don't see much of his work on SO because I don't follow the C++ tag, but he has posted many examples on the xkcd coding forum.
cbg \o
13:34
darn, was hoping some Spark expert was burning the midnight oil :P
maybe I should just make a question on SO
@MacSigler what's the question?
i haven't made a question yet, but i can copypaste what i posted in chat last night
I have done some spark but with Scala.
I will find it, no need ot copy paste
@MacSigler sorry: igniting a petroleum product in this room at zero-hundred hours will activate the fire suppression system and would seal off this entire room :)
I beat you to it. ;)
hi Jon, I feel like I've seen your name before
no way
My jimmies are going to be supremely rustled if this problem I've been working on for a week can be resolved by changing the value of a single dropdown that I've looked at but disregarded roughly ten times a day
does it have one of those descriptive names?
13:41
m a x i m u m o v e r r u s t l e mode on standby...
"totally_a_bool_yo = '2'"
@MacSigler You should post a question and a little more code
@MacSigler oh? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
@khajvah yeah, I didn't want to bog down chat with too much code; I didn't find any other questions with my exact issue so maybe I'll just open a question
@JonClements are you a published author?
guys why am I so easily annoyed by sounds?
@MacSigler sadly no... but I do get confused with the manga guy and author (Jonathan Clements) if that's who you're talking about?
@corvid most avian species are sensitive to auditory stimuli because they have many predators
> Developers coding in one of the 5 most popular languages (Java, C, C++, PHP, Ruby) are most likely to switch to Python with approx. 24% chance on average.

Source - https://blog.sourced.tech/post/language_migrations/
earplugs/noise-cancelling headphones perhaps?
I thought we were all published authors by dint of contributing to the collective art piece that is this chat room
The entire 2016 transcript is a heartbreaking deconstruction of the plight of man
13:48
@AshishNitinPatil What if we were already in love with Python, but are forced to code one of the top 5 for a living ?
we should get an ISBN and a DOI for this room
@AshishNitinPatil "switch" is a bad word I guess
@Kevin still standing by, don't leave us hanging like this :\
Yep, switch is not the correct term.
I "switched" to Python from C++, then to Java and Javascript
and to some Scala
13:50
@MooingRawr Current progress: there are eight values in the dropdown and I have tried three of them, none of which have worked.
The first one I tried was the one most likely to work so the remaining five are a mere formality
[|||-----] loading the feathers to be rustled.
*jimmies
@vaultah Hmm. You didn't say it had been previously hammered and re-opened. Hopefully that new dupe-target is more acceptable...
[at]work cabbage
cbg
trying to fight the heat wave with triple choc ice cream (gelato?)
13:54
[at]nose-to-grindstone cbg
@PM2Ring it is definitely better
I couldn't not find that discussed somewhere. in this question....made me chuckle anyway...
too broad, 1 more vote needed stackoverflow.com/questions/45294540/… (might have linked here weeks ago)
it also has a horrible answer, we'll see if my NAA flag goes through
thanks
@AndrasDeak NAA might fly in the review queue, but if your computation requires all data to be in memory then FILE I/O operation can't help much here. in this case you need to break your code or task into small tasks and do iterative process for each small task do computation and save data to file. and then so on.. will probably be enough to get it declined in the mod queue
thanks, fingers crossed then for the former ;)
14:07
@AndrasDeak is there a difference between gelato and ice cream?
well I guess I should look this up myself
because they are advertised as different all the time
hence "?"
> Gelato is the Italian word for ice cream. It starts out with a similar custard base as ice cream, but has a higher proportion of milk and a lower proportion of cream and eggs (or no eggs at all).
I kept calling it ice cream but then I heard some resident food snobs talk about gelato
ha.
so I got unsure
14:08
appropriation for the win
I'm not having ice cream....peasant...I'm having gelato. You wouldn't know it.
scurry along now
I'd assume that anything I eat here has a lack of eggs
so...gelato?
@AndrasDeak interesting... I'm probably reading it wrong, but that doesn't appear to have pushed it into the review queue... shrugs
yeah. stick to whatever it should be called
@JonClements that's...weird
then again there have been multiple fiddlings with those queues recently
"we're currently A/B testing what happens if NAA flags don't do anything"
@AndrasDeak Ahhh... entered VLQ 34 seconds ago... was wondering for a moment there what was going on :)
14:12
thanks, I just checked that it wasn't insta-declined (which would've also explained lack of queueing)
so the forecast is "few review comments, flag disputed or declined" depending on available reviewers
which is the worst possible gamble, as we know
"needs editing...into something entirely different by the OP themselves"
idjaw you were in here so early.... Guessing WFM ?
@AndrasDeak sighs put a direct link to a review in the room and no-one acts on it... guess you're to have to hope people come across it naturally in the queue then :p
I did, but I can't review it :PP
anyway, I won't lose any sleep over that post
thanks for trying ;)
14:17
@MooingRawr earlier this morning I was home
@JonClements Oi - I did!
oops, anonymity cover blown :D
Were you watching the World Junior Summer Showcase for hockey?
@JRichardSnape lol - well you're the only one :)
I was lucky enough to catch Sweden vs America at work...
14:26
Blood-feud enemies from Day One
@Jon what's the system again? IIRC 20k delvotes and "recommend deletion" choices are counted separately. Is that right?
Needs one more vote.
@JonClements I got a bit carried away writing comments there... :)
@davidism ?
@AndrasDeak Yup
14:27
The review Jon linked.
@JonClements thanks
yup. done
thank you, gents
I've run across that user before. Was it in the Flask tag or linked here? Low quality answers in general.
14:28
I might have linked that question here weeks ago
@idjaw (removed) is better? :p
Wait, does this mean that 10k<user<20k can proper delvote answers via review?
I didn't know that!
@Andras nah - only the 20k votes are real votes - as long as there's a 20k vote in there, then the OP can't undelete after 4 recommended deletions
but idjaw's vote is written "delete", not "recommend deletion"
which would imply a delvote, which 14k idjaw shouldn't be able to do
oooo - good point - that's pretty nifty
14:30
now that's an incentive for the lqpq for me
@JonClements :O puppy takeover
Using delete votes in that queue doesn't make sense to me. It only potentially saves one vote.
huh
now it's denoted as "recommend deletion"
go home, LQPQ, you'er drunk
The "deleted by" message includes the < 20k reviewers.
@davidism How's that work out?
14:33
You need 4 recommend votes to delete, or 3 delete votes to delete.
@davidism I mean here
@davidism Fair point, but I didn't mind spending a delvote on it, I'm not going to use all my quota today.
when the post was deleted, idjaw's vote was also denoted as "Delete", just like the 20k votes
it changed to "recommend deletion" afterwards
Are you sure you weren't just reading across lines?
of course not :P
14:34
Oh, I don't mind voting in the queue, I'm probably not going to use 30 delv votes otherwise, it just doesn't make as much sense now that the threshold is 4 vs 6 votes.
Andras would never make such a rookie error.
yeah, NoStupidMistakesEver is my middle name
I seem to remember a Meta post that figured out that you could use the API to make your votes always be "recommend deletion" even if you have delete votes left.
@davidism I suppose the only difference is that 4RD's can be self-undeleted by the answerer... if there's a proper delvote in there - they can't do that.
but the self-undel will trigger an autoflag, so it doesn't go unnoticed at least
14:36
So outside of review, a delete vote is irreversible by the author?
they might have a single undelvote out of 3?
@davidism an answerer can self-undelete a post if they deleted it or it get deleted via recommended deletions in review. If it's deleted by 3 20kers, they can cast an undelete vote if they're able, but it still requires 2 more to effect the undelete.
So my delete vote in review is less effective unless all three votes are delete votes.
I usually just use the 10k tab anyway to look at all the recent delete votes directly.
@AndrasDeak It's actually quite depressing how many do that without making a single change :(
@davidism I hate that that is entirely useless <20k
@JonClements can't say I'm surprised...
14:45
@AndrasDeak then stop slacking and get some more repz :p
hehe
considering how I keep bashing FGsITW for being socially suboptimal, it's hard to grind for rep
Hmm by setting a value in a dropdown completely unrelated to the dropdown I was looking at before, I was able to execute the function that's been crashing for a week. It sort of makes sense why this fixes the problem, but the question still remains why this became a problem. Why it worked for ten years, then spontaneously stopped working a week ago.
Well I mean not "spontaneously" because I was refactoring code in that region of the code base, but it was all innocuous stuff that shouldn't have caused these cryptic runtime incompatibilities
Unless what I consider "innocuous" is actually quite nocuous despite appearances.
15:06
Maybe there was some stupid logic in the code you were fixing that was allowing this issue to work ...
The crash occurs before my code even executes, so what my code does is immaterial compared to how it's structured.
If my code contains a lambda expression, it crashes before even getting to that line. If my code does not contain the lambda expression, the crash does not occur. So the problem has something to do with the parsing of the expression syntax and not its execution.
(this is in C# incidentally so it's double-plus incomprehensible that a parsing error would occur at runtime and not compile time)
Why yes, I do think it's odd that code on line 107 can cause an exception on line 102, after I have confirmed with 100% certainty that it's not a syntax error like "you missed a parenthesis".
Troubleshooting neophyte's problems on Stack Overflow has not prepared me for this. It's the difference between the municipal swim club and the vast and endless sea. There's no land in sight and something just brushed my foot.
15:32
Maybe some mysteries don't need to be solved. I'm going to put an indefinite hold on fretting about this unless QA tells me there's still a problem.
no ticket, no problem
@Kevin and QA don't have a problem given a little bit of green paper...
Why do I even bother...
This is rather elementary. You should try to write some code & post it here, otherwise your question is likely to collect some downvotes. — PM 2Ring 3 mins ago
I suppose I could bribe every person that has the power to ask "why hasn't the WidgetViewer project updated recently?" but it would probably take more money than I could possibly earn in my lifetime
I was already upset with inspectorG4dget's answer-in-a-comment. And then Mureinik had to write a full answer.
15:36
Assuming I don't launch a billion dollar IPO on the side
user8412095
hi
cbg
@Kevin there are other ways you can bribe someone. Money isn't the only thing humans values :D
True. My boss' boss' boss would probably enjoy hunting me for sport
rb folks
every single time the world-building StackExchange site shows up in StackOverflow's suggestions i do a double-take https://t.co/B51EfNlgeN
Blast, it's not as funny when the image isn't oneboxed
15:43
@AndyK \o
@PM2Ring I find comment answers acceptable if they aid in closing the question with no answers
I greatly dislike seeing comment answers on a question that has not been closed.
wim
wim
I greatly dislike comment answers
I'm definitely keeping that tab open in case the question lives for 2 days of age
i comment answer when I don't have enough time to type up a real answer :\ Guess I'm part of the problem
15:46
you are :P
@AndrasDeak For typos and dupes, yeah. For homework-like questions with no code attempt by the OP I prefer to only give hints. But I guess a one-liner solution might be ok after the question's been put on hold.
@PM2Ring yeah, fair enough
And even then, I like to wait a day or two, so that they don't see the code until after their homework's due.
I should start posting proper answers to questions that I normally answer in comments
yup
then close them :P
15:47
Vault is with me !!!! praise the sun \[T]/
Quick way to gain the repz
Oh btw good luck Vault :D (rooting for you)
Commenting on a hammered post to explain how the target applies to their specific problem is OK. Pointing out the exact typo in a typo-closed Q is OK. Taking pity on a Too Broad or Resource Rec Q and giving them what they want is of questionable morality similar to feeding a stray cat.
the idea is that if you don't put the food in a bowl but instead just throw it into the end of the courtyard, they won't be so eager to come back
Feeding stray animals is generally a bad idea, unless you are determine to continue the feat.
15:48
I try to comment/hint on pyparsing questions when I don't want to snipe rep from someone else who has worked up the gumption to post an answer answer using pyparsing (but no mercy for those posting "pyparsing, wut?! use this regex!" answers)
once they're eating from a bowl, they'll certainly come back
@MooingRawr Precisely. It encourages OP to continue asking broad questions and asking for resource recommendations.
plot twist: a few of these gems and they get question banned
problem "solved"
I don't comment answer on voted questions for closing or hold, I comment answer on questions that are open for others to take my comment and verify for me :D
It also signals to everyone reading the page that those kinds of questions are acceptable
Thus decreasing the quality of 1-rep user questions in general
15:50
I must admit that I sometimes post a partial answer as a hint in a comment when I'm about to write a FGITW answer. Sometimes it seems to discourage the competition, but sometimes it backfires, and someone else will write an answer that's consistent with my hint & submits it before I submit my own answer. But I guess the comment is evidence that I thought of the idea before they posted their answer. ;)
But losing those repz must smart...
Not good enough PM. There are no laws in this town! Why do you think people try to be FGITW? It's to survive. /jk
@MooingRawr the election ended two days ago :D
surely he didn't mean that......did he? :D
Thanks anyway
15:52
I sometimes go by "PM", but I see you mean the other PM. Maybe I'll change my nick to "PM"...
When I see a hint in a comment, I tend not to answer with the expectation that the commenter is working on a full answer, and has a head start on me. So you should leave hints in comments if you specifically want to avoid being Kevinned by me personally.
Not all gunners have my same model of conduct tho
@PaulMcG wait wait wait, you turned back in <30 days D:
didn't even notice that
Not so "unique" after all...
@vaultah Oh, I didn't know the results are out :( darn nvm sorry for bringing it up, if it makes you feel better you were one of the two I voted for :\
Don't worry about it :) And thank you for your support!
15:53
@PaulMcG back in the flock...
wim
wim
good bye SO documentation , don't let the door hit your butt on the way out ..
^ rude :\ What did Docs ever do to you :\
We can't talk about it while still keeping our PG-13 rating
@AndrasDeak In which case your family name should really be DoomedToDisappointment
resource rec stackoverflow.com/questions/45488966/… There's also a "possible dupe" link, but I reckon it should just be closed, not hammered.
15:59
@PaulMcG I think we should call you PMG if you don't mind ....

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