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12:01
@AndrasDeak pretty sure Orban wants Trump so that Hungary could be taken over by Putin :D
user559633
i'd bet money that the monetization model is that stackoverflow gets money from 3rd parties for users to "contribute" documentation
user559633
e.g. ticketmaster gets API documentation from chumps on stackoverflow that will write it without getting paid
that would be horrible
user559633
...that's what documentation is
@khajvah I’m not even convinced anyout outside of SO will use it.. It’s probably only rep farm… or frustration source
12:03
hopeless programmers start googling for the exact problem and arrive in SO itself. Programmers who still have hope browse the actual documentation
@tristan I'd like to say that you're paranoid for seeing conspiracies everywhere, but I do find the staff's stance towards this crapheap unsettling
@AnttiHaapala free vodka?:D
@ChaoticTwist Documentation isn't a tutorial. A tutorial needs to be properly structured. You have to learn the basics first, and then build on that foundation. And then build on top of that stuff. Etc. That implies a clear linear sequence in the presentation of topics, not an orderless bunch of hypertext.
And that's why lots of people still like learning stuff from actual books, or at least electronic documents that (primarily) have a book-like presentation. Sure, links are great for cross referencing, glossaries, etc, but that stuff is supplementary to the primary presentation of information.
it is true that great programmers are not grown by beating them...
user559633
@AndrasDeak it's not a conspiracy. they're trying to monetize and that's the obvious move. see careers (big money there) -> "who you'll be working with" -> teams -> trying to merge teams + stackoverflow groups
but this SOD fiasco isn't a way either
user559633
12:13
a big thing in recruiting is trying to recruit a group at a time (or team), so i wouldn't be surprised if that's next
I don't even get teams
@tristan ah I see
@tristan I wouldn't mind :d
Teams is probably another TOP PRIORITY product…
6
user559633
i'm surprised they haven't cross-network teams yet
think about Omni Consumer Products Corp recruiting the whole SO Python, how awesome would that be
12:14
@AnttiHaapala my main issue is that SO staff doesn't seem to assess it as a fiasco
user559633
e.g. ux + stackoverflow + serverfault
user559633
@AnttiHaapala yeah. i need to get my motivation up again, but i had thought about that more than once
@tristan We still have no access control… I’m not suprised that there are no cross-site teams…
@AnttiHaapala ACME coding company
user559633
@poke oh, sorry,i meant "plans" for, not "actually implemented and working"
12:15
@AndrasDeak CABG coding company
user559633
Tech Rabbits
@poke :D
I wonder if they have actual (practical) plans…
@tristan tech that's screwing all the time, proliferating?
that's docs
for long time J&J were behind the strategy I guess.
Now I do not see anything coherent.
Except "grow"
or "become obese"
12:18
SOD is the type II diabetes of SO?
SODiabetes
@AnttiHaapala has Joel left too? Is Shog in charge?:D
Have you seen anything from Joel lately?
no...but he could still be in charge:P I only know that Jeff has left
His profile says he's the CEO yes
but look at his blog: "January 20: stackoverflow raised 40M"
12:21
"Time to go on holiday!"
then some stuff about trello and whatshit
the Careers mafia got rid of him
user559633
they chased him off with memes
if you're a CEO of a some significant company then I'd expect it to be full time
not like... hey this is my hobby.
Reckon $40m is a reasonable amount to decide to hightail it to Barbados and sip Pina Coladas
user559633
12:23
40m is not a lot against their valuation, brand, and daily actives
if I'd put 40M in a company, I'd make sure that the one who's the CEO pretty much works full time for the CO.
No, it's not a lot for a company. But it is a lot if some of it comes your way :)
not like that even wikipedia lists this as your second job :D
12:24
and theirs, obviously
I was trying (badly) to make a subtle joke that he may have taken (some of) the money and run.
user559633
there's a manager of "inclusion and engagement"
lol what does that even mean
@tristan manager in charge of political correctness?
user559633
it implicitly states that they can't trust their general staff to not be shitty people
12:26
no, they make sure they're not being shitty:P
@tristan They manage strange materials embedded in rock strata and impending marriages.
trust but check
user559633
@AndrasDeak yeah, seriously. chief offense taker and buzzkiller
@tristan the manager for "attrition and disenfranchising the capable"
@tristan maybe it just means you can't engage your co-worker without their approval
user559633
12:27
@JRichardSnape not bad at all, sir!
oops, JRS beat me to the marriage thing
Sales - Careers seems to be the largest unit
I've been amused by the Docs chitter chatter - missed it all really as I was on my hols. I was on the private beta - did one or two actions, realised it was beyond hope and didn't engage further. So I guess I'm partially responsible for not trying to re-float the sinking ship.
@JRichardSnape so did you say it was beyond hope?
it's all your fault
@AnttiHaapala No, sir bows head. Hence my partial responsibility. I am suitably chastised.
OTOH - I did think they might look at the frequency with which people were engaging and take that as a possible sign of issues...
user559633
12:29
stackoverflow is a sales company? dramatically takes off glasses
@JRichardSnape again, what they, masters of qualitative studies, say: "100 % of the responses we've received have been overwhelmingly positive"
user559633
"we asked people that get fired if they don't say it's good and those people said it's good"
@AnttiHaapala Yes - it's true.
which is of course not how you do qualitative research.
12:30
there's a number there, don't be so pedantic
user559633
i only do quailitative research. i ask some cool looking birds what they think
at least they're not 1000% sure they're doing it right
@AndrasDeak In that case it's definitely "mixed methods" ;) Probably multi-disciplinary, too.
> i ask some cool looking birds what they think
Corvid replied "Caw"
they probably consulted a set of jade stones to be on the safe side
user559633
when's the next steam sale?
12:34
Well, y'know, I don't know why you're so down on Crystal divination. It's been used for hundreds of years and it can't have any negative effects. So it must be useful. Right?
Hey, @tristan. How's Windows 10 going? You may like to install Classic Shell if you want it to look more like earlier versions of Windows. BTW, Win 10 "helpfully" sends anonymized usage info back home by default, you might want to disable that.
user559633
i tried to muster up some strong feelings about the future features/path of stackoverflow and i can't
user559633
@PM2Ring i think i disabled that. is classic shell third party?
@PM2Ring You can't disable all of it
user559633
i'm beyond shocked at how bad windows 10 is.
12:34
:)
my experience was horrible too
user559633
they're obviously going down a path to vendor lock everyone into using the windows store as well. i don't think that they're clever enough to pull it off, but i imagine they'll try
Yeah, Classic Shell is 3rd party. It's well-endorsed, so if you get it from their home page you won't be installing malware. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Disclaimer: I don't use Windows, but I installed Classic Shell on my Dad's machine.
user559633
i'll check it out, thanks. i'm trying to keep the OS as vanilla as possible
I liked the look of it though
the only thing that I liked
user559633
i don't trust windows with any credentials beyond what's absolutely needed and imagine it will get exploited at some point
12:39
did you have to check 50 additional boxes to make sure your privacy is respected by MS?
@tristan Fair enough. It's pretty easy to turn off a lot of the annoying crap manually. Classic Shell does that for you, as well as giving you a traditional Start menu.
user559633
i clicked a bunch of them and still expect that they'll spy on me. it's microsoft. it's the aids cancer flu of the software world.
sounds legit
@AndrasDeak some people tried to disable everything and then ran packet sniffer and it was still sending data to ms
user559633
i'm sure on update time, it uses that cover to send back a trove of metadata
12:42
how rude
One thing I like about Win 10: since "upgrading" his laptop to Win 10 and totally hating it, my Dad no longer tries to convince me that Windows is intrinsically better than Linux. :) Although I must admit he had toned it down a bit from what he was like a few years ago, after I managed to do various rescue operations on his old XP desktop system using Linux. (I wrote a bash script that can manipulate Windows XP restore point files).
My dad doesn't even know there is anything other than windows xp and 7
Man, it's nice when that happens. After years of saying how pointless macs were (compared to his windows machines), after Win8 my dad finally relented and moved to get a mac (couldn't quite convince him to go the full Ubuntu), and he's now preaching with the zeal of the converted to anyone who'll listen. rolls eyes only took 15 years.
@khajvah that's your fault, really
12:48
Next step - Ubuntu his mac.
user559633
my parents went to osx. never had to do support again
user559633
2016 is the year of linux on the desktop for parents that you don't like
Exactly. I've gone from 1 support calls every few weeks to... I actually don't think i've had any since he got the Air.
@AndrasDeak well he doesn't care about computer stuff. He touches a computer in the office and even then, he asks somebody else to do stuff.
I think he called me to ask if he should defragment his drive like he used to do on Windows at one point.
user559633
12:50
OS X is gradually getting worse and Apple is slowly making it more of an idiot/iOS setup that sends back more user data, but it's still vastly superior to any windows
user559633
@Withnail wait, do you have to? it wouldn't surprise me if microsoft made changes that still require this sort of thing
Not on OSx. Windows runs an on-the-fly defragmenter like OSX now, but it's not as consistent, so it's (apparently) recommended you do it manually once a month.
user559633
Oh, sorry, I meant defragging on Windows. And wow, yeah, that doesn't surprise me.
that's too frequent I think
user559633
Hey, they were busy putting twitter and candy crush into the start menu.
12:52
NTFS shouldn't require defragging, but I guess it doesn't hurt to do it from time to time. And of course if you want to resize a partition it's a very good idea to defrag first.
user559633
You can't expect them to do things like make a relatively secure operating system, manage resources, or design an interface that's not pants on head crazy
Finally getting my conference expenses back from University tomorrow - it's only taken 6 weeks. \o/ and they had to send me a physical remittance as well as an emailed PDF (which is, I might add, a scanned copy of a printout of that PDF). I may have touched upon this madness before, when i was putting my expenses in.
Oh, no. Previous anecdote about job creation jobs was the university newsletter: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/6?m=31165522#31165522
oh right, social sciences
I keep forgetting to lower my expectations;)
my university websites including the payment page still don't use HTTPS
12:59
@Withnail I have to print out a PDF to sign it in pen to scan it and send it to register on a teaching course I have to do. The form is made in Word, with the boxes being graphics objects that you can't type in. In 2016. I nearly cried.
I'm gonna hunt you down when I'm in Budapest Andras. *Wolfcastle Angry Face *
Noice
@tristan I'm pretty sure defragging an SSD will ruin it.
user559633
> 7/26/2016 - Tuesday 8:19 am On FedEx vehicle for delivery
Morning cabbage.
user559633
13:01
@Programmer yeah, that's why i was kind of surprised. write amplification
On a vaguely-related note, but closer to the metal, the magnetised spots on a HD spread out a little over time. This isn't generally a problem with modern drives (although it was an important issue back in the days of tape), but over a long time span it can lead to read errors on data that was written many years ago and never touched, eg big music or movie collections.
Fortunately, the *nix dd program can easily fix this: just do dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/sda, with an an appropriate block size (say 64k).
That's awesome
@tristan is that the what?
user559633
That last of my computer parts :)
@PM2Ring and stick your usb sticks into the computer every few months to avoid discharge
@tristan but what kind of parts?:)
user559633
13:04
GTX 1060
weapon preloader?
user559633
Oh, hah.
how's the install going @tristan? or do I even want to know ;)
oooh, the gpu, duh
user559633
@JGreenwell Hah. I think it's at the point that I can mostly ignore that it's Windows now. Ostensibly, the proper way to run steam is to run it as an administrator
user559633
13:05
Which is all kinds of hilarious if you think about it.
yeah, Windows 8 & 10 both do some voodoo with comparability mode and games which makes it so you "have" to run them as admin a lot of the time
where "have to" is defined as "you can do 120 other operations to fix this at the risk of f'ing up one's registry"
user559633
oh, one of the most popular applications in the world requires side stepping our permissions model? must be a problem with that application.
13:23
@tristan well, FWIW, hackers use that application
user559633
if the concern is that hackers may use a platform and push code that runs as a subprocess, then same result, fix the security model
no, I just meant that hackers use that application, so it's OK that it needs additional work to run:P
just like facebook
user559633
or don't. people will run things as admin until microsoft forces the windows store on people, then maybe other platforms will get the notice and make themselves more suitable for gaming
@tristan I don't think it's the platforms themselves so much as the developers writing the games
unless ActiveX produces some magic for developers?
user559633
it's more than openGL doesn't provide as much auxiliary support
13:30
python: TypeError: Can't convert 'list' object to str implicitly

^^I guess this is a syntax error and not a logic error or real-time error, right?
No, if it was a syntax error, it would say SyntaxError.
user559633
define "real time error"
that's a type error
I interpret "real time error" to mean "an error that occurs after Python is done parsing the source file"
....okay, if you rollback an edit - you can only rollback all the edits for a day on a topic (not a single bad one)........so now I have to edit and other will get rep still.............
user559633
13:31
@Kevin me too, but i didn't want to assume
It's because at the level I'm studying programming at, errors are split into syntax errors, logic errors and real-time errors.
feel like Charley Brown and SOD is the football
real-time errors? you mean run-time?
@SnailMail are you sure?
I am mildly annoyed when educators make up their own terminology not shared by the community.
See also: calling every collection under the sun an "array"
13:33
if Michael Jordan teamed up with Ray Charles to funk, they could be called Air Ray
Ok, now show us the page that defines those three terms.
@AndrasDeak and if they joined forces with the lead from How I Met Your Mother they'd be Air Ray Ted
oh dear
13:34
> Run Time
I don't see any real BAH MORGAN
That's okay
user559633
oh god that question is junk
Oh I see
user559633
13:35
depends if the type conversion happens behind a user controlled event
@Kevin yeah, I had a long discussion with another person (who may have been an educator) on just that subject (Lists are not Arrays and Dictionaries/Hash tables certainly should not be called Arrays)
user559633
please stop
Based on no evidence I assume "runtime error" is an error that actually throws an exception, and a "logic error" is a mistake made by the programmer that makes the program produce incorrect output but doesn't cause an exception. In which case, a TypeError is a runtime error.
@JGreenwell interestingly, in Hungarian arrays are called "chunks", with a strong implicit meaning of being one block of something
@Kevin indeed
13:36
@SnailMail wow
What is the native language of the writer of that?
@AndrasDeak oh, I like that; kinda works with my usual bucket explainations
"what is syntax errors?"
@Kevin yeah
@AndrasDeak Purple!
OK I sniped myself here
user559633
oh man, van slowing down in front of my house. it's either my graphics card or the government is watching me again
thought of a way to make a reference to "What is love?", and now baby don't hurt me is stuck in my head
@tristan it was nice knowing you, man
So it's a type error then
watch your head
@SnailMail lol
user559633
@AndrasDeak they've always been very professional
13:39
@tristan Or someone playing Pokemon Go.
I vote for waterboard
How do I return data from a list based on the contents of the string? is very amusing to me. OP has a dict, converts it into a string, converts that into a list, then asks "how do I get an element out of a list if I know the bit before the colon?"
possible XY:P
That is nothing
OP is being a good sport about it though so I can't take too much pleasure in his troubles
13:41
morning everyone
I had a person I tutored who when I asked him to write me code to pull all the unique elements from a list: not only failed to use set, a loop of some sort, or even math (it was a int list) - actually wrote code which displayed each number so he could input if it was unique
writing the numbers on paper so he could keep track
difficult to tell, maybe dupe? stackoverflow.com/q/38591436/344286
using the wrong tool for the job?
i.e. "Can I use browser automation to get input from the user?"
@JGreenwell that's AI right there
synergy of flesh and silicon (much like a Miss Universe)
@JGreenwell wow that's amazing. I think that beats a coworker I had...
To remove an item from a list in Java...
user559633
good setup, decent payoff. a 6.2 from the american judge
user559633
13:44
JNI->C->Python; use sets
Just led a brainstorming session. PostIt notes everywhere. I am consultant, hear me consult.
user559633
what's so hard about that
@JGreenwell That's sort of a rational approach, in a very short-sighted kind of way. "It will take me two hours to write a functioning fully automated program to do this, or I could write an input loop and do a little manual work and be finished in ten minutes. Obvious choice"
user559633
you can't spell consultant without sultan
If I was tutoring, I would have said, "excellent work. Next exercise: the same as before, except the input list has ten million elements instead of ten"
13:45
only person that I had to spend 16 hours explaining for loops to (to be fair he was network student and good with hardware just had to pass intro scripting class)
he would create a new list of size-1. Then he would push items onto his new list and skip the value he didn't want to place there. Or there may have been a third list involved, I'm not sure.
@Kevin basically that's what I did: quick one-liner to create 100+ element list of random ints - "now you have to use this one"
These people clearly have resourcefulness, they're just pointing it in the wrong direction
True that
In the vastly wrong direction.
I know that I've started down those paths myself... I've just never had the fortitude to continue steamrolling over all the walls and obstacles in my way. I always felt if it's taking me that much effort there must be a better way.
13:48
Of course in Java/.NET land many times there isn't. Which is part of why I love Python so much because almost without fail, there is
I tried the rollback option and it is bloody hard to retract it
morning
o/ @idjaw
cause rolling back a single edit, apparently rolls back the entire topic
cbg idjaw
13:50
@JGreenwell the basic unit of docs is topic
Morning, idjaw.
yeah, figured that out....really need a way to rollback edits
I was ultra confused about what I was rejecting because it didn't look that bad and then I realized that you were the one who proposed the change and also there were all kinds of things changed, so... ewww.
cause I don't really need to see someone getting rep for bad edits....oh, well. Fix the broken system with band-aids
I've been a developer enough that this is nothing new
@JGreenwell It is for SO. It's like they didn't listen at all to the things that anyone has been saying. High rep users frustrated and annoyed by the docs platform and the horrible tools. I, for one, do not engage with it. I don't think that I will ever use it for looking up documentation
maybe they just need more SEO?
with -14, he will not come back ...
Not bad. Closed in 1 minute 31 seconds. :)
One paragraph into this SQLA tutorial and I'm already failing. "A quick check to verify that we are on at least version 1.1 of SQLAlchemy" gives me 1.0.14 -_-
I believe in you. sqlalchemy.__version__ += 0.1
@AndyK Now at -20
14:12
TIL the singer from The Offspring has his own brand of hot sauce
Haha, what's it called?
I see pypi has two different packages. Looks like I got 1.0.14. I wonder why pip opted for the lower version? Could the other one be tagged as "unstable" or something? Is that what the B means?
@corvid He also is currently getting is doctorate I believe.
nm, found it
No, 1.1 says "Production/Stable" so that's not it...
14:14
Gringo Bandito
Oh, I think 1.1 is a "prerelease" version. That would explain it.
I'm going to go ahead and use 1.0 on this 1.1-oriented tutorial and hope the interfaces are the same
Dangerous.
Aaaaand my hard drive is a smoking crater.
@Kevin 1.1 is in beta right now
You can get it by using pip install --pre
Cool. I'll upgrade if/when my current attempt goes disastrously. ("... or you could upgrade right now because the instructions for doing so have been handed to you", thinks the audience. But I'm trying to keep my motivation level up by jumping straight into code. I don't want to exhaust my capacity for boring installation BS all in one go)
14:24
SQLAlchemy and most readthedocs pages default to "latest", which is based on the master branch.
For some reason most projects don't enable "stable" as the default, or don't enable it at all.
It's really frustrating that I have to wait for edit approval again.
Uh, approved the wrong thing
🙄 sorry
Now it's approved ?
14:30
For some reason they changed it around from requiring 1 reject or 2 approvals to 2 rejects or 1 approval.
Earned the Peer Review :D
everything should be fixed now?
I got 2 rep for deleting something, lol.
@vaultah yeah, you're good... for now.
@davidism That’s something that should carry over to Q/A
14:41
So, the minor edit threshold for docs really needs to be adjusted upwards. I cleaned up a little bit of the wording in the comprehension example, and the rep is starting to roll in already.
I actually assumed that my edit was too minor, there was just some wording that was bothering me.
yeah, and really minor edits keep getting approved (cause they would be fine on Q&A) which means big rep gains and more really, really minor edits
"Documentation - downvote without any comment. Is it useful?" didn't take long
I really need to get on the edit rep train while it's still rolling. I never even managed to hit a cap with Docs rep.
Good thing it's a top priority.
I mean, look at how much effort they put into teams. I'm sure that they'll fix this bugs in this.
you just have to edit an already existing doc and you get rep?
14:45
Yup.
haha
that's hilariously broken. I need to get in on this
Any time someone upvotes it, everyone who ever edited it gets 5 rep.
which is really annoying to people who only try and make good edits cause less rep
I don't think there's any point trying to get on the SOD rep train.
I'm so tempted to just go around editing minor wording changes on a bunch of stuff until I hit 10k.
14:46
^^haha yeah
also really annoying for those of us with lower rep (like <1k) cause then all we hear from SO employees is "I don't know why people are complaining about 40 rep, that's like nothing...."
One of two things will happen:
1. SOD will be put out of its misery, and all that rep will disappear in a recalc.
2. Rep will become completely meaningless across SO.
In either case, there's no gain.
I just want to view deleted questions.
in Documentation Public Beta, 1 hour ago, by davidism
I don't mind that it gives more opportunities to gain rep, I mind that it rewards low effort / quality.
^^ yeah. that
14:48
this should not give me rep.
The Syntax section on that topic is unreadable. I would be driven back to the actual docs by that.
@davidism Oh man, no kidding. I hadn't looked at that section. That is terrible.
Also, why the frack is syntax BELOW the examples.
It's like they want shitty cargo cult programming.
reading the chat transcript, I think they do Morgan
Welp, I think SO has officially jumped the shark.
14:53
Do people really not notice when breathing through their nose makes a little whistling sound? Blow your nose, coworker!
I've been paying zero attention to this docs thing while I've been working on R.A.B.B.I.T. Is all this easy rep flying around accessible to users with ~10 rep? I would like to get Terry up to 100 rep so I can more easily test RO powers.
@Kevin Yes
@Kevin Yup. You can do it even with 1 rep.
Ok cool.
Because that's not going to end badly.
14:54
@Kevin you can edit at 1 rep. You get 2 rep per approval, then 5 rep for every vote after approval.
If there's one group that contributes quality content and understands the culture of SO, it's 1 rep users.
Terry knows what he's doing ;-)
@Kevin are you working on the backend?
When I have a service called “Heartbeat”, what would be a good method name to make it “beat”?
heartbeat.beat() seems somewhat redundant
heart.beat() :P
14:58
heartbeat.frankenstein()
heartbeat.make_it_alive()
@idjaw It’s not a heart though :P
heartbeat.drop_the_beat()
heartbeat.poke()
heartbeat.pulse(), heartbeat.tick(), heartbeat.tell_tale()
14:58
cbg
tick()? tock()?
Oh, I know
@davidism Yeah but it's slow going as I haven't played with Python's DB libraries before (third party or otherwise). I've just now gotten SQLAlchemy to save/load rows to a persistent sqlite table.
oh please use poke...please
@WayneWerner pulse is perfect!
heart.beats_by_dre()
14:59
lol
heartbeat.throb() ;)
throb is also nice
beartbeat.beat_it()

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