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6:14 PM
I'm really really wondering why I would use member methods. Instead of global function like:
f(myObject, x, y, z)
Since python doesn't have private/public what's the main benefit of member functions?
 
If you have a Widget class and a Sprocket class, both with a frob method with unique behavior, it would be quite tricky to erase both and write a single global frob
 
That's more namespaces than anything else
 
Yeah pretty much :-)
Peters 1:19 - Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!
 
-.-
 
"But that doesn't give you any more power, it just makes it easier to organize complicated ideas" is a pretty dang common refrain for every language but assembly
 
6:25 PM
that's silly though
 
Well Peters 1.13: There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
 
a Turing machine already gives you all the power
everything beyond that is just easier ways to organize complicated ideas
 
@tzaman Sadly I haven't seen a turing machine yet
 
DSM
@paul23: are you suggesting that the obvious way to do it is to have one function which branches on the type of the argument in some Julia-like dispatch fashion? Because if not, I'm not sure 1:13 applies..
 
Once you are properly indoctrinated into the OO worldview, then using methods will become the obvious way to do it. Only half joking.
 
6:27 PM
And actually a physicist could explain to you that a turing machine is physically impossible to exist. It would violate one the most fundamental laws in the universe, entropy only increases.
 
There was some quote about "Python beginners think everything should be an object, intermediates thing everything should be functional, it's all dicts anyways. More experienced users just use the right tool for the job."
 
you only need infinite tape for arbitrarily large problems. Real computers don't have infinite memory either, but they work fine
 
Maybe the universe that contains the turing machine also contains a great big source of ever-increasing entropy, so the total amount increases regardless of how ordered the machine becomes.
 
@davidism yet I'm constantly wondering. Especially when needing to "extend" already existing libraries. In C++ the approach is to use public methods unless you really have to use a member method, at which point you create a function containing (not inheriting) the super object.
In java however the standard approach is always inherit directly.
So the right tool depends on the language
 
I'm not entirely clear on the difference between "public method" and "member method", here.
 
6:31 PM
You obviously have something specific in mind, but I have no idea what you're arguing about.
Use functions if that makes sense. Use instances if that makes sense. Either can be "extended", it's a matter of good design and documentation.
Python programmers will probably be more annoyed at the former than the later, but if that's the hill you want to stand on go for it.
 
@Kevin public method, I meant global function.
@davidism Well in numpy you can use basic matrix algebra using their arrays: A.dot(B) etc. But I would like some more advanced linear algebra that is not part of numpy/scipy
 
And?
 
the main thing you get beyond just namespacing / code organization is inheritance
 
Got it. Bit of an inter-language terminology discrepancy, there, since by definition a method can't be global; if it's not defined inside a class block, it's not a method.
In Python, of course. Other languages can use whatever words they want.
 
Well biggest problem is, it's only like 4-5 functions added, so creating an inherited class for my own vector math seems silly.
 
6:36 PM
It's not. Problem solved, go worry about the hard problems instead.
 
On reflection, my own geometry class has dot_product and cross_product functions, when they could easily have been methods on the Point class. I don't recall if there was a particular reason for me choosing this design.
 
DSM
> DSM: Kevin just said "irrespective" in a conversation. (Backstory: friend uses the word 'irrespective' a lot, and friend admires Kevin's wit.)
Friend: ... where is Kevin and can I meet him? I feel like he's already one of my friendships.
 
I think I may have preferred them since dot_product(a,b) more resembles the English language equivalent, "the dot product of a and b" than a.dot_product(b) does.
 
@Kevin A point is usually a 3-tuple, but dot product (and I think cross product) are generalizable to any tuple?
 
Air
@DSM I'm partial to "disunirregardlessly" myself
 
6:38 PM
OTOH, a.dot_product(b) more resembles the mathematical notation a . b, so...
 
@Kevin indeed and allows better chaining
 
Well, dot_product returns an integer, so in that particular case chaining is unlikely. Point taken for cross_product, though, which does return a Point instance.
Or, wait, is it the other way around... Whatever.
 
DSM
@QuestionC: the dot product is. The cross product works best in 3, although you can make a kind of analogue in 7 as well. And you can have an outer product in any number of dimensions.
 
Especially when making transformation matrixes you often get things like:$ T_x . T_y . T_theta . T_y^{-1} . T_x ^{-1}$
 
@DSM I still remember dot product, but cross product was admittedly so rarely used, and so long ago I have no idea what it is. Wasn't it basically a 1-row version of some matrix op though?
 
6:40 PM
@Kevin oooh, but a dot product is more generalized when talking about matrices!
 
To the googlemobile!
 
@QuestionC WUT?!oneone!!!
 
@DSM I rather like the idea of having a friend that I have never met and never interact with. Very low maintenance.
 
Most common occurence for me: the torque is the cross product between distance and force
 
"My friend, who lives in Canada and so you probably have never heard of him..."
 
6:43 PM
There are people in Canada?!
 
The lorenz force is the cross product between current and magnetic field
@tzaman Don't spoil the secret
 
I used cross product just today, actually. Conversation full circle = achieved.
 
In my (former) world (of recreational programming), dot product comes up a lot because you need to frequently find the projection of one vector onto another. Cross product... you can use it to find the equation of a plane for two vectors, but that's best I can think,
 
It's pretty useful for finding a thing perpendicular to two other things.
 
DSM
Lunchtime rhubarb for all!
 
Air
6:46 PM
@Kevin A veritable touroborus.
 
:-D
 
@Kevin You actually sniped me on a dot-product question not too long ago actually. stackoverflow.com/questions/33155240/…
 
I get pretty excited when I can use my geometry powers for something other than idle self-amusement
 
0
Q: Kepler orbital elements from state vectors

paul23Well given the 6 common Kepler orbital elements: Eccentricity $e$ Semimajor axis $a$ inclination $i$ Longitude of ascending node $\Omega$ Argument of periapsis $\omega$ True anomaly $\nu$ As can be seen in this image: I am wondering how to calculate the actual position and speed vector ($\m...

Feel free to solve it :P
 
blorp, greek letter overload. I can only handle three at once.
 
6:49 PM
I feel like we're being used to solve some million dollar prize problem here.
 
Air
wait... SO isn't idle self-amusement?
 
>> I am wondering how to calculate the actual position and speed vector (r,v)

There is neither an r nor v on that picture. I'm useless.
 
I'm banking pretty hard on the assumption that answering other people's questions counts for some small fraction of a good deed.
Otherwise my karma will be impounded and crushed into a cubema.
 
@Kevin That's good - I only use three (Omega, omega & nu)
 
Each thousand SO points is worth one month of housing a homeless guy. There's a conversion but it's not great.
 
Air
6:51 PM
@QuestionC r is common symbol for position and v for velocity or speed.
So it's just writing out "position and speed vector" using symbols.
@paul23 Isn't that a gamma on the right?
And is the ascending node symbol a happy funtime Omega, or what
 
@Air Well not exactly, not sure what that symbol (it isn't even greek) - it's just the symbol used for "reference direction"
 
Air
Oh wait that's the Beats By Dre symbol, isn't it
 
Googling Argument of periapsis" reveals the picture's source.
 
@QuestionC yes? Not a big secret lol, why would I recreate the image XD)
 
Re: letter count, I see horseshoe, goat horn, bola, and U with a tail of unusual size. That counts as four in my book.
 
Air
6:55 PM
Oh, wow. It's just called the ascending node character. That's quite specific.
I'm going to stick with Beats By Dre.
 
Additionally, arabic letters may also be counted as greek if they are italicized enough. That slanty V in particular is a culprit.
 
@Kevin slanted v = nu
I wish my IDE would allow me to use latex/mathjax to type greek symbols as identifiers
 
Air
As opposed to special character keystroke combinations/shortcuts?
 
7:13 PM
@Air idd, and "cleaner" simbols than those in pixel fonts.
 
Do we still have room meetings?
 
Air
Nov 3 at 21:20, by Ffisegydd
Are we due a room meeting at some point?
 
Yeah, we should schedule one soon in fact.
 
Air
Read from there.
I frequently pass by a co-working space on my ride home from work. Now that it gets dark early, the lights are on and I can see people (co-)working inside. It must be nice to be your own boss.
I wouldn't have to sit here through a droning, minimally-interactive web training, for one thing.
And I might have the opportunity to ever check out one of these pyluminati meetings, for another... which is I guess what brought it to mind. I'm sure all the best conversation happens during official meetings.
 
I think there must be a chat room where right now someone is telling an anecdote about the man that frequently rides past their co-working space.
"Must be nice to not have to be your own boss", they say
 
Air
7:28 PM
Of the "grass is always greener" variety, perhaps. I do have a pension plan.
 
at a minimum, we know that you get to go home earlier.
 
Air
Than the two individuals I saw yesterday evening, yes. But there were many empty seats at 5 PM.
 
@Air Conversation flows quite differently during meetings, since our usual wandering style is not conducive to grinding through a predetermined list of topics.
 
Air
Yes, tongue was firmly in cheek there.
I believe I read a transcript of a meeting where the cv-pls brouhaha was addressed.
...wow. That is too much hugging.
(Uh, that's not from the room transcript, in case anyone's very confused, just an abrupt change of subject)
 
I didn't know ribs had cartilage.
Googling... Oh, it's what connects the ribs to the sternum.
 
DSM
7:38 PM
What they apparently have is pain. :-/
 
You need more cartilage. I prescribe shark fin soup.
 
DSM
Can't remember if I had any during my time in HK. There were lots of things called shark fin soup which didn't actually contain any shark fin.
 
For best results, fight a live shark for the ingredients.
 
Air
One of the recommended means for preventing sexual harassment in the workplace, according to this presentation, is to "be flexible."
That seems more like a means for preventing injury during.
 
Gotta Matrix dodge those overly touchy coworkers.
 
Air
7:44 PM
If your rib cartilage separates in the Matrix, your rib cartilage separates in real life.
 
In the movies I was never entirely clear why Neo coughs up blood in the real world while he's getting beaten up in the matrix. Did he bite his tongue?
 
Air
They just do a sort of hand-wavey "shit is real, yo"
 
I'm willing to believe that if you die in a very realistic simulation, then your brain goes "welp guess I'm dead then" and shuts off in real life. But I'm not willing to believe that thinking you got punched causes blood to materialize in your airway.
 
I'm going to embark on an experiment and put docstrings and nested classes in an otherwise super-monolithic undocumented codebase.
 
Air
It's like the exploding consoles on every Enterprise
 
7:47 PM
Hypothesis: I will have to undo all of this after code review.
 
Air
I believe Morpheus's line after Neo comes out and finds blood on his lip is, "Your body makes it real."
 
The best explanation I can come up with is "while thrashing around in the chair in response to being punched, Neo sustained some self-inflicted internal injury"
In which case the solution is merely to strap them down a lot tighter.
 
DSM
Congestive heart failure can cause hemoptysis, or so the worldmind says.
 
Air
Not sure there's any margin in critiquing the science of a Wachowski movie.
 
Crackpot solution: the real world is also a simulation, so any discrepancies like that are caused by poor programming.
This would also explain Neo's magic powers in the third movie.
 
Air
7:50 PM
The contrails on throwing knives in the V for Vendetta trailer made me sputter with incoherent nerd rage, just a bit.
 
DSM
The Rule of Cool trumps physics.
 
Reminds me of my annoyance when someone on TV is holding a very sharp sword and it goes "shing" even though it's not moving at all
 
Air
See also: spaceships go "swoosh!"
 
Handwaves: the shing is non-diegetic. The swoosh is generated by onboard computers and piped through the ship interior, for the benefit of the pilot.
 
DSM
diegetic?
 
Air
7:53 PM
I, too, am Googling that.
 
DSM
I'm not too proud to admit I don't know that word.
 
In this context, "created by something on the screen and perceptible to the characters". I doubt that's the exact dictionary meaning, but meh
 
Air
[Here we go.](http://filmsound.org/terminology/diegetic.htm) "Diegetic sound:
Sound whose source is visible on the screen or whose source is implied to be present by the action of the film"
 
The only reason I know the word is because it was used on Archer last year, by a character that could hear non-diegetic ominous music.
 
Air
It is a mystery to me why that link's not being rendered.
 
7:54 PM
She sniffs a lot of glue.
@Air, possibly it requires a http://
 
DSM
@Air: need htt
Oh, come on, Kevin. That wasn't even a joke. :-/
 
Unless it's already there, in which case I don't know.
 
Air
It's there.
 
DSM
[Here we go-n't.](filmsound.org/terminology/diegetic.htm)
 
DSM
That one matches. What did you do?
 
I put a space after the url and before the paren.
But Air's doesn't have a space, I think.
 
DSM
(Midweek blahs, I guess: we're experimenting with chatroom syntax..)
 
Air
Midweek, midday, midmonth. A triple threat!
I believe it's also midquarter.
 
Half Life 4 confirmed.
 
7:59 PM
a quarter life is half of a half life. Half Life prequel confirmed.
 
Air
I observed the evidence of that edit using my midbrain.
Something something midichlorians. Are we still incrementing? No?
 
wow
mind = blown
numpy's matrix dot product is about twice as fast as manually calculating the dot product. Even when I first have to create the numpy matrix from variables.
 
Air
Numpy's slogan should really be something along the lines of, "Yeah. It's that good."
 
x,y,z = vec
return [
    x*cos(theta) - y*sin(theta),
    x*sin(theta) + y*cos(theta),
    z
]
vs
mat = np.array([[cos(theta), -sin(theta), 0],
               [sin(theta), cos(theta), 0],
               [0,0,1]])
return mat.dot(vec)
 
Holy hell I hate C#. This language is so cripplingly dependent on the Visual Studio IDE.
 
8:06 PM
@QuestionC Burning heavens, I love C#. That language integrates so amazingly well with the Visual studio IDE.
 
BigCorp pays me to write C# code. I have no strong feelings one way or the other.
 
Write C# code, or maintain other people's C# code?
 
About 20/80.
 
Air
@paul23 And you're not even asking the computer to perform the zero operations. :)
Numpy clearly cheats better than humans do.
 
I just... I'm old and incapable of learning anymore. I don't want to learn the class viewer, I just want to be able to refactor my code so I can read it. =(
 
8:14 PM
You sound like me yesterday when I didn't want to work in VB.
And me tomorrow when I will have to work in VB again.
 
At least you don't have to learn a whole language and a framework for that language, to do very basic website setup. I'm still confused why I couldn't just do this all in python...
 
> Implying I know C#
 
I'm trying to learn C. God this makes me miss Python.
 
> Implying I know VB
 
I just meant the large framework on top of the language :p
 
8:17 PM
I guess I'm lucky that I already know the framework.
In the sense that I know where the "add new page" button is on the IDE
I can get from "New Project" to "Hello World" in under ten minutes B-)
 
This is all just "I know how to program" stuff. In my heuristic, there's only a small handful of languages (Python, C, C++, assembly, HP Graphing calculator, and LOGO). Everything else is just dialects.
 
@QuestionC (Can't Forget( Lisp))
 
I learned a little lisp, but not enough to do anything besides some SICP stuff. I suspect if I really used it, it would just be some hybrid of Python and HP Graphing calculator.
 
I technically still don't know what I'm doing. I'm just trying to make it work
 
"I technically still don't know what I'm doing," thought every adult at all times.
 
8:23 PM
One of life's big revelations is realizing your parents felt that way.
 
^^That!
I especially felt that when I had kids.
I remember telling myself. "My god...my parents were in this exact same situation not knowing what they were doing too!"
 
Haha, I was just about to say. Every new parent must think, "they gave this to me and I didn't even need to apply for a license or anything"
 
my wife and I bring it up frequently.... "I can't believe our parents were in this situation and we gave them so many problems"
 
Child care: easier than driving, marksmanship, and fishing.
I think I did a pretty good job in minimizing the number of "just wait until you have kids of your own" speeches I received as a youth, so I hope the karmic wheel spins in my favor.
 
DSM
According to the hot questions, Cîroc vodka doesn't seem to be kosher. This is a problem for our Jewish friends wanting to fully embrace the Cîroc lifestyle. :-/ #wedaft
 
8:28 PM
Last week I learned that regular formula Coke contains a grain that is forbidden during passover, so they use a different formula that time of year.
 
really?
wow
that's really interesting
I wonder if there is a noticeable difference in taste
 
I think it may be a regional thing.
> The sugar-sweetened version, which is distributed in areas with significant Jewish populations, is easy to spot: Just look for the yellow caps.
 
DSM
#yellowcap
 
Replacing HFCS for sugar may be an attractive option to even the secular drink enthusiast.
 
Mountain Dew made a thing about that.
They also switched back to a kinda-racist, but endearingly-so product art for that line.
 
8:43 PM
cbg
 
Air
Now this is a story all about how my life got flip-turned upside down, and I'd like to take the rest of eternity just sitting right here to tell you for the love of any and all things that could hypothetically and/or subjectively be considered "holy" (or equivalent analogue), fuck Excel
5
 
fresh prince of excel
dj jazzy sheets
 
Air
Please sir, may I use another 1.66 GB of RAM to view this 200 KB csv file
I really want to see those commas super clearly
 
I'd recommend LibreOffice calc, but I think it may actually be worse.
 
user559633
that would be a really bad DJ name to yell over the noise of a crowded club
 
8:58 PM
@Air Don't let Microsoft hear you. They'll solve your problem with xml.
 
Air
The "X" is for X-Treme!
I leave you with that. Lunchtime.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:17 PM
Hey guys, just tried to parse 81 XML nodes with minidom, the getElementsByTagName method needs about 300ms time for the 81 nodes, which are all like
<Location Duration="0" Lat="54.32255" Long="101.3847" Name="Namehere" />

Does this seem about right?
Oh there are some more nodes (6400) in there btw which are not of the type Location
 
XML parsing is one of those canonically slow things like file I/O and database access. I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Just make sure you aren't parsing the same XML multiple times.
 
Okay, that's fucked up
 
DSM
FWIW that does seem pretty slow to me. minidom is orders of magnitude slower than something like lxml, though, so I don't think I've ever used it in production.
 
10:44 PM
minidom is known to be slow, yes
If you don't need the whole DOM in memory, you might want to try iterative parsers.
 
@QuestionC Now what if the XML documents becomes the size of around 1-2 GB?
 
11:01 PM
Hey guys o/
 
11:27 PM
hi
 
11:54 PM
Python is so foreign to me :P
I'm trying to do a project with Pandas and the way it handles things is just not clicking yet
 
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