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19:00
If this theory is true, then when you come upon a question you really really like, you should wait as long as possible before voting.
It doesn't really add any useful information.
DSM
DSM
Hmm, that's interesting.
Almost sent this to the reporter, and thought better of it: "Hey, you're learning Python. Keep it up, we may be able to employ you as a developer."
If the super fanatics vote it up to 20 right away, everyone that comes by and thinks it's deserving of ten upvotes, will shrug and do nothing. Better for the fanatics to wait for the moderates to finish looking at it.
DSM
DSM
19:01
@QuestionC: but you'd have to exclude the asker, otherwise he wouldn't know which answer to credit.
I actually prefer LBYL in my own code, so I agree with him in principle :-)
@BenjaminGruenbaum Ben just mentioned nan, what does it mean?
I keep quiet about it though because the community seems thoroughly against me
In my defense, he's in support and disclaimed the developer title in a meeting about a week ago.
DSM
DSM
19:03
@thefourtheye: do you mean the float not-a-number?
I really like how EAFP feels
Power went out across the Southern part of the city. What now?
DSM
DSM
Northward ho!
but I do feel like, even in those cases where it avoids a race condition, it forces you to write an extra comment
This is assuming that asking forgiveness and looking before you leap are equally hard to implement. If one is less verbose, I'll choose that one.
19:04
There was this argument of EAFP on meta too
Exceptions should be reserved for exceptional cases, not for use as the bastard brother of 'if' :-( — einpoklum Apr 10 at 19:54
Typing "two" when you should type "2" is an exceptional case :-D
@DSM thus, the migration of my peoples begins...
@BhargavRao but sometimes an if (if even possible) is way more intensive than just trying it and seeing what happens - also - don't forget race conditions etc... :)
@Kevin you mean two instead of TWO. No magic numbers! ;)
@DSM I don't think so. This is what he said
> or update their nan dependency, in which case nan will take care of it
19:06
@JonClements Ha yeah. Race condns are a pain in the wrong place :P
@thefourtheye node-nan
hahaha nan will take care of it - that's nice of her :)
@thefourtheye sane node native extensions github.com/nodejs/nan
DSM
DSM
@BenjaminGruenbaum: I'd just come to the same conclusion by knowing where you tended to hang out and using the power of google. :-)
I'm sorry, wht do LBYL and EAFP mean?
19:07
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yup. Got that now. Thanks man :-)
DSM
DSM
@QuestionC: "look-before-you-leap" vs "easier-(to)-ask-forgiveness-(than)-permission".
You Block You Lose?
e.g. the difference between if s.isdigit(): thing and try: int(s); except: thing
Um... I've already a chicken jalrezi, then a 12" meat feast pizza... why am I still hungry?
19:09
# LBYL
if os.path.exists(filename):
    os.unlink(filename)
else:
    recover()

# EAFP
try:
    os.unlink(filename)
except OSError:
    recover()
next question - how am I still only 12st?
Thanks. I just didn't know the acronyms =)
@Adam and of course between the if and the unlink - the file might already have gone - had its permissions changed to disallow unlinking etc...
"twelfthst"
DSM
DSM
19:10
@Jon: you eat right and get lots of exercise?
^ My go-to reaction for all my inexplicable behavior
@DSM not sure about either of those :(
DSM
DSM
Next guess: tapeworms?
@DSM I'll get myself some dog de-worming stuff tomorrow ;)
Won't get it from the vets though - might want to put me down or something...
rbrb - gotta meet the prof! Will get my project after the meeting
@BhargavRao All the best
19:13
Did you just @ yourself? :p
DSM
DSM
.. did you just @
.. and now Jon's beating me too.
Yeah. Wishing myself. :P
Jon's beating you? That's abuse!
We did warn @Bhargav before he started hanging around so long that this room does strange things to your mind, didn't we? Did someone make sure he signed the legal disclaimer than we are in no way responsible/liable for his mental health from prolonged exposure etc...?
Bhargav? Who Bhargav? This room legally rejects any knowledge about that name.
DSM
DSM
19:16
@BhargavRao: may all your projects be solvable with a few lines of itertools wizardry.
@thefourtheye ahh... good strategy - in case of a law suit - we'll just say he was a stray insane person we adopted for his own protection?
Phew, we dodged a law suit with that Puppy :-)
closes eclipse
"Oh, that's simple! Why not just use itertools.does_program_halt()?"
@Adam just use list(itertools.count()) - nothing bad will happen
DSM
DSM
@Fizzy: I admire your determination on that one.
19:18
@thefourtheye what notion? I don't see anything. :)
So I decided that the easiest way to synchronize state in my networked application, is to send a seed value to each client and let them generate the starting data locally.
Assuming the RNG works the same on each device, they should all end up with identical results.
@Adam trust my innocent smiley: :(){ :|:& };:
@AdamSmith Ya, what is it? Did you hear anything? ;-)
DSM
DSM
Don't trust Jon!
Aug 29 '14 at 17:45, by DSM
I'm not going to explain why I just had to reboot my computer.
This is nice because I only have to send a byte or two of data, which cuts back on bandwidth usage. The drawback being, since hidden information about the state of the game is available on each client machine, they can cheat by investigating the packet stream or the process memory.
19:20
@DSM Aha, finally you know who the evil puppy is, don't you?
@DSM still can't believe you ran that :(
oh god what does that do?
Did nothing to me. Windows saves the day again!
OH
it's a fork bomb
Hehehe, fork bombs!
19:21
my bash-fu is non-existent
cbg @Morgan
I don't expect this to become a problem until my game becomes the world's most popular e-sport.
At which time, I can release a ver. 1.1 patch.
holy crap Jon changed his avatar.
Jon has an avatar? I don't see it.
19:23
@Adam your attention to detail for about a month is astounding :)
frantically hits F5
I've been spending a lot of time trying to decide how much responsibility the server has for officiating between players. At one end of the spectrum, it could have a full canonical copy of the game state, with all the client's states being mere copies. On the other end, it could be nothing but a simple relay that forwards messages received from one client, to each other client.
@Kevin the former - else it's easy to cheat ;)
DSM
DSM
Too easy to cheat if the server
Aaargh
@Kevin this is one of those efficiency triangles.
19:25
This is true. It's a shame because the more lightweight the client, the easier it is to design.
@DSM 3rd time lucky?
"Pick two: secure gaming, easy to develop, cheap to maintain."
DSM
DSM
@Kevin: is this a for-work game?
Nah.
I don't know how much I care about cheaters, because my intended audience is my IRL friends, and luckily "tech savvy" and "willing to cheat" are mutually exclusive qualities for each of them.
My evil friends would have to bribe my tech savvy friends if they wanted to get anywhere.
DSM
DSM
It's nice when people can work together toward a common goal.
19:27
Or they could just bribe me. My rates are very reasonable!
then "easy to develop and cheap to maintain" it is
client holds all game information and sends it to server which only acts as a relay
ta-da
@Adam must as well just have the server as a client locator process and have clients connect directly then :)
(P2P style)
I thought about that. Then the person that initiated the game in the first place could have the canonical state.
Just code it in KevinScript and then no one will be able to read the code or have a clue what the code is doing uuhhhhhhhhhh it'll be easy to develop...
is the game real-time? Be aware of latency sensitivity between hosts and clients
19:32
It's turn-based. multi-second latency would be only a mild annoyance, and only during the most heated portions of the match.
Umm... anyone fancy going through Portal 2 multiplayer again at some point?
You know I never made it through that
Both single and multi player are awesome.
Beat single player, but not co-op
Think I'm near the end of the single player... last time I played, Glados became a potato
19:34
Maybe I should pick that up again. My home computer is bucking the video card for poorly-understood reasons. I think my power supply may be dead? I'm not really sure
I assumed it was the video card, so I RMA'd it
same problem with the warranty replacement card
Or... might see how much further I get in Bioshock Infinite - haven't finished that yet either
Card is getting some power because there's an LED that turns on when the mobo is powered. Fans don't spin and there's no output, though. It's a pain
fans not spinning doesn't exactly sound good :)
Hmm. Have you added any extra components? Might be you don't have sufficient power.
presumably if the fans aren't working - the only thing keeping it alive for any period of time is heatsinks
19:36
@Ffisegydd nope. Happened on its own
@JonClements That might be my favorite game. I had a free day when I got it and I played it in one sitting.
Think I'm about half way through
(I hardly play games)
The only thing I haven't tried yet is to make sure GRUB isn't killing it. I have a Windows box that I was dual-booting Ubuntu on
or I might play some Civ5/Civ:BE
@JonClements Yeah, that's the one game I played last year other than Hearthstone.
19:38
I decided not to do that, so I reverted everything right about the time the vid card died
I assume you've upgraded drivers and such?
but pretty sure I completely wiped the hard drives and reinstalled the Windows Bootloader when I reinstalled Windows
so it shouldn't be that
sighs - seems Steam needs an update everytime I launch it
@Ffisegydd yeah, flashed BIOS to newest version too
@Adam oh well - if you're going to install a virus on your system - what do you expect? :p
19:39
Ha. :P
Do you have two PCE-E slots by any chance? See if you could swap to the other to see if it's the mobo slot.
I do, and it's not ;)
The slot is giving it power, I just have no way of testing if the power supply is
user559633
have you installed linux
when plugged into the mobo alone there's an LED that indicates whether it's in Legacy or UEFI mode that works. It doesn't do anything if the thing is unplugged so I know it's not just a battery or something
Have you tried using a cabbage juice power source?
19:41
Bleh. Yeah sounds like power supply then. If it's a modular then you could replace the cable.
user559633
maybe try turning it off and on again
@tristan I was just waiting for someone to say that - had to be you didn't it... had to be you :)
I think I'll steal a power supply from work to test with
I don't trust my old box's power supply
I'm looking forward to getting a job and upgrading my PC. Want a new GFX and power supply to begin with.
I have three at home, but one is known to be flakey, the other is the one under test, and the last one is...meh
I just don't trust it
user559633
19:42
you must feel so powerless
I want a modular PSU to make cable management easier.
Agreed
I shoulda splurged and gotten one when I built this box last December
but I managed to get a good deal on a bundle of parts that saved me about $300
but I had to use this PS
user559633
just connect it to a car battery to test. both are 12v output
and wasn't worth buying another one lol
19:43
when creating my unicode sandwich

[bytes.decode('cp1252')][my code][unicode.encode('utf-8')]

as long as you properly decode data coming in, I can re-encode is whatever ecoding I want as long as all data can be correctly represented ? right....
A unicode sandwich wounds most unappealing.
Sure! The goal is that strings should act like strings inside Python, and if you want to use them as something else you should have to convert them
@AdamSmith cool !
I'm really wanting the 980 ti too
on a 670 atm
19:51
Yeah I'm on 670 ti I think. It's okay. Does its job. Can play all games on quite high settings. I had to turn GTA V down to medium though.
I'm playing Witcher 3 on mostly-medium @ 1080
Reading the review it's nearly as good as a TITAN and significantly cheaper.
re-cbg
Should buy two and SLI them :D
just found my first natural use of property decorator...
19:54
I use properties constantly
probably on things I shouldn't
The interview went off fine!
user559633
@AaronHall Bought a lawn gnome for a flat that already had others in front?
I also want a 4k monitor.
an attribute of something that is really a function of that something...
I wish I had a single comprehensive year-by-year list of the most popular and/or well reviewed games, so I could buy each one as a sort of "best-of" tour through gaming history
I am only dimly aware of the hype cycle surrounding new and upcoming games, so I can barely remember what was a hit a year ago, let alone ten years.
19:56
I think tristan is one of those Russian trolls who intend to divide us. Well guess what, troll, I still love Russia. So nyah.
user559633
@DSM How I wish that. Unfortunately the new project is in R :(
R is great.
or do I use .getthisattr() instead?
user559633
@AaronHall your government lies to you about the internet. there is no russian troll except for maybe those of your disney movie
user559633
19:57
icanhazattr()
Use .JeevesFetchMeMyHatAndAttr()
@Ffisegydd Yeah. I have done two projects till date. 1 in python and 1 in R. But python is more readable. :)
but it's really an attribute... so it shouldn't be a getter sort of Java construct, right?
it gets harder when you're writing core code...
because you want to get it right the first time.
ok, it's more of an attribute you get programmatically and can't set, so definitely property.
I dislike R. Can't quite put my finger on why. All my other tendencies suggest I should like it
@tristan Getting there, but it doesn't tell me, for example, what was the hot PC game of 2002.
user559633
20:00
@AaronHall yeah more or less except that you're calling a function each time as opposed to a getter which can just return a simple object
user559633
@JRichardSnape have more grog
???
Russian troll makes no sense
user559633
I think I just misunderstood you. I am actually trying to be helpful
fair enough, then
@tristan I find that increases my internal inconsistencies.
20:02
rbrb - time for food :)
user559633
only infrastructure coder in this week and i'm typically remote, so i'm all kinds of out of my element right now
Also, fear not, my dislike of R troubles me not. Grog always a welcome suggestion, though
Umm... made an MSO post while I remember it - typical pedant me... but heck... haven't made a post in a while :)
Interesting so the Python core code could have been haxxored.
DSM
DSM
@Ffisegydd: hmm!
I knew something was suspicious about these new type annotations.
It all makes sense! Quick, to the PythonMobile!
cbg everyone
cbg @michael
20:10
What's up?
@Ffisegydd when I was in middle school I use to have a sampled .mod file with a heavy background beat and just something going... "let's go... let's go... let's go... TO THE BAT MOBILE!"...
Uh, I always get confused by "What's up". I even read a few What is an appropriate response to “what's up” greeting? questions.
Related point: The correct response to someone going "waaazzzzzaaaaap!?" is to punch them in the face. Hard. — Seamus Sep 3 '10 at 16:19
:D
See I don't think of "What's up" as "How are you?" but instead as "Hello"
Though it depends on the context, if we've already said hello etc then it makes sense as a "How are you?"
DSM
DSM
Even in Canada, it's not uncommon for "How are you?" to be responded to with "Hello", or "Good morning" or whatever. It doesn't actually require a response.
@vaultah The correct response is to say "gas prices"
20:15
@michaelpri english.stackexchange.com/a/2488/72217 (from that question) :p
@DSM I sure hope that applies to the US, because I do that constantly
DSM
DSM
I tend to be laconic in person (no, really), so "hey" is my go-to.
Thanks guys :)
I tend to mouth some unintelligible nonsense that's meant to be "Alright" but instead sounds like "ahhr"
I'm also a man of few words in person. Mostly because half the interesting things I have to say require a round trip to Wikipedia to be remotely comprehensible.
20:19
getting dependencies into prod...
user559633
@Ffisegydd I do that all the time.
do people ping you at work with just a "hi"?
In chat, it's fine to have a hundred second delay between coming up with an idea and communicating it. In meatspace, less so.
how do you improve on that?
I'm still trying to figure out how to hold a conversation with someone that doesn't get my references to The Simpsons or ancient Greek myths.
20:22
@poke a typo/omitted line in your answer yesterday spawned a basically duplicate question: stackoverflow.com/questions/30605668/…
Here's my perma-message, updated with today's tidbits: "Please include any question with initial ping, or email it. Please include a minimal complete verifiable example if reporting a bug."
user559633
@AaronHall eh, i hate that talk. in the past, i've just been outright with "hey, next time please let me know what you need initially"
I'm debating fixing your answer and voting to close or just answering the new one
user559633
haha please include a SSCCE when pinging me
Create a chat bot that handles all conversations less than 500 characters long.
20:23
Can you watch for variable changes in python and bind event listeners on their change?
Anyone know anything about the brand "LEPA?" Thinking about picking up this power supply
we need a reputation based twitter.
@corvid If you import Tkinter, you can do that for IntVar and StringVar and the third one that I forget
@AdamSmith when spoke aloud - it seems a bit of an unfortunate choice of initials :)
Or you can write your own implementation, which will have less dependencies on the GUI system. You can't actually make an IntVar unless you first make a root window. rolls eyes
20:25
Kind of like Chevrolet selling the "Nova" in Spanish-speaking countries
DSM
DSM
@AdamSmith: I think that's a myth, actually.
Something like:
class WatchableValue:
    def __init__(self, initialValue):
        self.value = initialValue
        self.callbacks = []
    def bind(self, func):
        self.callbacks.append(func)
    def get(self):
        return self.value
    def set(self, value):
        old_value = self.value
        self.value = value
        for func in self.callbacks:
            func(value, old_value)
def value_changed(cur_value, old_value):
    print "value changed from {} to {}".format(old_value, cur_value)

x = WatchableValue(0)
x.bind(value_changed)
x.set(23)
x.set(42)
#result:
#value changed from 0 to 23
#value changed from 23 to 42
If you're about to say, "ok, but can I monitor for changes due to assignment statements? Ex. x = 42, rather than x.set(42)?"
I'm pretty sure that's impossible, though.
DSM
DSM
I've honestly spent the entire day getting dollar signs and commas to appear.
user559633
me too, but in my bank account
20:36
I'm in that euphoric 4 hour period between cashing my paycheck and paying my landlord
I'm rich!
user559633
heh. have you considered becoming a homeless like me?
My daughter, for some reason, isn't willing to budge on the whole "house" thing.
user559633
pfff what a princess
user559633
also, i think i'm a nomad by definition, not homeless
Nomad? You hippie, that sounds almost...communist...
20:43
Well - at least more people understand what a nomad is rather than what a monad is :)
user559633
i'm a hippie that works in ad tech, yes
DSM
DSM
When I think "nomad" I think Genghis Khan. Then I think of the TOS episode.
Well, got a PSU to test with from work and ordered a new one regardless 'cuz you can never have too many computer parts :P
@DSM oh gawd... and I thought I'd managed to forget that episode - thanks :(
user559633
TOS?
user559633
20:46
Terms of Service episode?
Star Trek: The Original Series
TOS -- The Original Series
user559633
NEERDS shoots spitballs at the collective you
DSM
DSM
I suspected tristan was cooler than me. That he didn't know that acronym settles the matter, I guess..
.. and he's NOT! :P
@DSM even if he is "cool" - we're 0K :)
user559633
lol joke is on you, i'm taking the trans-siberian railway because i love trains and want swaths of uninterrupted time to code
20:49
tristan is just one of those itinerant marketing executive Russian trolls.
The trans siberian railway would be cool.
Haha
user559633
i'm going on it next year
97% coverage, baby
I had a friend that travelled across Canada by train. Took him 2 weeks.
20:50
@tristan sounds like you've got loads of time to do coding even before you board then :)
user559633
@JonClements yeah, but imagine how focused i'll perceived myself to have been in retrospect?!?!
complementary __ne__ for my __eq__...
user559633
i'm going to start the railway in singapore -- super excited @Ffisegydd
Ugh, they edited it
test coverage is up
yeah
20:55
@vaultah that edit didn't really clarify anything, I'm leaving my vote
Oh god I just tried to create a class in Perl... I need some eye bleach.
21:13
surely that is eye bleach? :p
lol (would expect more from Google)
"The Blind Man in the Bleachers" is a single by American singer David Geddes. His version, titled "The Last Game of the Season (A Blind Man in the Bleachers)", reached number 18 on the Billboard Hot 100 in 1975. It was later covered by country music artist Kenny Starr. Released in 1975, the song is from his album The Blind Man in the Bleachers. The song peaked at number 2 on the Billboard Hot Country Singles chart. It also reached number 1 on the RPM Country Tracks chart in Canada. == Song story == The song is a salute to high school football and focuses on a junior varsity football player (who...
Also a very good song ^^^ :)
@vaultah Aaaaaand now I'm going to have that song stuck in my head all day.
off to bed, rhubarb all!
21:37
I have to run home to take care of my kitteh and then rush off to the Python meetup... I'm seriously thinking about staying home after getting there... Done, I have released my RSVP...
22:04
Somehow I always manage to shut this place down.
22:23
hello all...
does anybody over here know about qutip or used it?
@TAbraham welcome, please read sopython.com/chatroom, in particular: just ask your question
now, I have a question that I have posted on stack overflow and I am desperate to get it answered...
It seems that barely anybody saw the question
is it still ok to post it here or ask it? @davidism
did you read the rules? In particular: don't post new questions here. It's only been 2 hours, wait a couple days
@davidism I can't...
@davidism do people really go through thousands of questions to answer one of them?
@davidism I just read them...
Yes, people answer questions. Also, please stop pinging me on every message.
22:29
oh, I am so sorry!
I am used to doing that in other stackexchange chats...
sorry!
so what do I do, can I come back tomorrow?
Sorry I haven't used qutip
adam, but have u heard of it..in reality my question is more of a scipy question..
after all, qutip is a sort of quantum mechanics wrapper for scipy...
nope, sorry
@BenjaminGruenbaum I saw the benchmark in one of the PRs with Map and Objects. And Maps were slower. Is that the same reason why Sets are also slower?

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