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15:01
My mother has a powerful "It just stopped working, I dunno" field which causes any computing device to fail in unusual ways when she operates them. I think I've inherited some of that.
@Kevin It's not paranoia, they are out to get us....
Luckily, the techie genes from my dad's side seem to have reduced its potency by orders of magnitude.
I have the opposite. I walk into a room and all the technology begins to work. I think I have aura of fear
@IntrepidBrit What's your rate? Can I get you to fly in for a visit when the technology is hating me?
I've got a vision of @IntrepidBrit walking into a kitchen and all the appliances spontaneously turning on - out to the shed, where the power tools start to scream menacingly. Ahh - must need coffee again
15:04
Around £40/hr :P
My favourite was being paid to do that exactly. A whole day's travel expensed, to travel up North to check a system
@IntrepidBrit There are days I'd pay it, except for the cost to get you from the land of £ to the land of $.
Which spontaneously started working
Open cd tray, find slice of baloney. "There's your problem."
("bologna", for all of you, uh, people from wherever it's spelled "bologna")
@WayneConrad It's not too bad these days, as long as you're on the East Coast. One can fly from Inverness for "peanuts"
@Kevin I feel that we should work on a Chrome extension that automatically translates odd localised slang ;)
@IntrepidBrit On one of those airlines where you pay extra for pressurized air...
15:09
@WayneConrad And heating
user559633
Did you know that bologna is legal tender in Bologna, Italy? If you buy a sandwich, you can pay with slices of bologna! Weird, but true!!
@tristan Click on this link to find out more?
user559633
No links, just misinformation.
I have never liked the smell or look or feel of bologna. It offends the majority of my senses.
user559633
Misinformation Technology
15:11
I bet it sounds gross if you slap two pieces together.
With an 80% failure rate, I'm not prepared to determine whether the taste is any good.
user559633
@Kevin I think that's the closest deli-centric-equivalent that you can come to simulating a fart.
DSM
DSM
...
just wanna check - is it illegal to kill your clients for stupidity?
user559633
@JonClements Yes, probably. What country?
I think the laws are the same as for disconnecting the life support machinery from patients in persistent vegetative states.
user559633
15:13
Depends how rich you are in some countries.
DSM
DSM
It's illegal to do it yourself, and it's illegal to arrange to have someone else do it. But it's not per se illegal for your clients to die.
So, get permission from their family first, I guess.
Hey up
3 hour interview done. Pint?
DSM
DSM
15:14
Is "hey up" a Fizzyism or do other people say that too?
3 hour interview?!
It's a Northern thing.
user559633
3 hour interview isn't that long
user559633
I had an 8 hour one once.
"I get 404 from website xyz" so no one can access mine - fix it" sighs
DSM
DSM
15:15
Did they pay you for a day's work?
user559633
Decided around hour 6 that I didn't want to work there, but sunk cost .
I once had five forty minute interviews in different departments of one company.
Good interview though.
user559633
What did you do?
Danced my heart out, just like you taught me.
user559633
15:16
@Ffisegydd Was anyone watching?
@Ffisegydd it's good mucka - 3 hours is not traditional in the UK... you'd have been long excused before then if there was no interest
DSM
DSM
Did the rhythm get them?
I gave a presentation on Apache Spark, took questions on the presentation, then had an actual interview.
user559633
'mucka: A slang word used predominantly in Manchester but also North West England meaning "friend"'
@DSM they were definitely nodding along to the beat.
DSM
DSM
15:17
Excellent. No one can fight the moonlight.
@DSM isn't that lycanthropes or leann rimes?
But no in all seriousness it was a good interview from my end so we'll have to see.
They asked me questions on python. One of them was on the difference between 2 and 3.
user559633
@Ffisegydd "Monatomic increase in all output of PyVersion calls"
Another one was what range did and I asked if it was 2 or 3. Cunning!
15:20
@Ffisegydd I take it 1 wasn't the answer? :(
user559633
@Ffisegydd Xrange -> now range q?
@JonClements That would have been my response to see if they passed the "sense of humour" test
@IntrepidBrit would have failed my "do I want to work for these people test"
It wasn't aimed at that (it was basically a code sample with a range object and a list comp) but I discussed the differences
user559633
@davidism "shocked that no one had made it a full time job to study 10 years of history in a portion of a video game"
15:23
It sounds silly, but he's been sending out monthly updates and previews on the Kickstarter, and it's sounding really interesting.
oh deity... we created the @Martijn AI that's taking over SO and we're barely getting "it" under control to not take over the world, then we got a physicist getting into data analytic....
Eve, and it's politics and history, is really interesting.
user559633
If it makes you feel better, I've decided to quit technology and run a brewpub out of Berlin.
Somehow we also got a bird using nodejs and mongodb.
@vaultah pineapple on reaching 10k. Now all your dreams can come true.
End of the world is neigh!
DSM
DSM
15:27
@Fizzy: I like that you can do 10**1000 in range(10**100) now. Not that I really have cause to do that much, but it's nice to know it's there. :-)
I wasn't sure whether you were making some elaborate horse based pun there Jon or whether you'd just misspelled 'nigh'
DSM
DSM
Aaargh, I was making a horse-based joke.
Beat you from a phone...
DSM
DSM
This is not my finest moment.
@davidism thank you! :p
15:30
@Ffisegydd, BroodHollow started updating again this week. I'm looking forward to some chthonic adventures.
@Kevin cheers for the notice. Will check it when I go home.
@Ffisegydd he gave it away! He's working on his next project, a Ninja horse, but he let the cat horse out of the bag now.
This is the horse of the less well known fifth horseman of the apocalypse.
Nice work, Kevin, spotting the == that the ninja overlooked. :)
Sure, but I have a feeling that the == wasn't the source of OP's problem anyway.
Either his real code has an =, or he's in an interactive environment where f was previously defined.
15:44
most of the time the real problem exists between the keyboard and chair
I think if he had gotten a NameError on line one, he wouldn't have worded his question the way he did.
All the more reason to post a stack trace instead of "it doesn't work" I guess.
DSM
DSM
It takes people surprisingly long to get used to the idea that if you post code which isn't your actual code, you introduce a potential for error which makes it harder to solve your original problem.
@Kevin Both good theories. And as you say, Martijn did address his main problem.
Yeah, I just had that happen. A >10k user posted what he thought was an MCVE which actually created a new error.
I love it when people post their code ... and its clearly pseudo code that they wrote in the question space. to try and create a minimal example of a problem they dont understand in a language they barely understand
and then they get angry about getting an answer that fixes their pseudo code but not their real code
"sorry tried it this didnt work"
...
15:48
On second look, I see user pcurry noting a mismatched parenthesis, so there's my "f was previously defined" theory out the window. I'm now %100 behind "he's just making code up"
DSM
DSM
"That doesn't seem like it can be your real code." --me "I tried to simplify it." --OP "But now it doesn't work, and if I fix it, it doesn't show the error you said it did." --me "..." --OP
@DSM I saw one the other day which had functions named x & y, as well as simple variables named x & y. The OP eventually admitted that the names in his actual code were different, he'd just used those names to make the code simpler, not realizing that he was introducing an extra source of error.
@MartijnPieters Hang on, hang on... why isn't the puppy listed... :p
DSM
DSM
Debugging is a learned skill, and we're dealing with a lot of people who are early in the learning process.
I don't deny that composing an MCVE can be difficult
DSM
DSM
15:55
If I were teaching intro programming, I think I'd devote an entire class or two purely to teaching students how to debug.
start with prints...
too many people think debugging === gdb breakpoints and analyzing stack traces
when 99% of the time just putting a print in the right place reveals everything
DSM
DSM
Yeah; print(type(obj), repr(obj)) gets you most of the way.
to be honest i almost never use breakpoints .... only as a last ditch effort
and theyre usually much less enlightening than ?I hope
Bob
Bob
I think so too Joran
15:58
In Ancient times, when programs were written on paper & then punched onto cards, there was a saying: "Programming is the art of debugging a blank sheet of paper".
Bob
Bob
wow
great quote
@JonClements because I thought it was still secret!
DSM
DSM
Awwww.
oh.. the temptation to crop that and make it a new avatar...
16:02
Speaking of debugging (for those who didn't see it earlier): How to write a debugging request
DSM
DSM
"I have flaws, but I'm not a specific problem or error either." Well said, George.
ahh - but dammit - then I'd have to reveal my secret identity
@JonClements note the 3 legs!
Also, when we were discussing 0-based vs 1-based indexing I forgot the obligatory xkcd link: Donald Knuth, which is unforgivable, since I know that comic number off by heart. :)
@Martijn I might try that one... but I only get one change per.....?
16:06
@JonClements not sure, not like usernames though.
errr... @Martijn you could change me back to my normal if I do this right? :p
@JonClements I probably can, yes.
although it probably does look like I'm attepmting to suffocate a puppy
@DSM Yeah. I LOLed.
I have the current image safe.
(e.g. the URL is i.sstatic.net/xBOdp.jpg)
DSM
DSM
16:09
Feb 25 at 17:56, by DSM
> "My compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration." — Stan Kelly-Bootle
^ My favourite indexing quote ever.
I like a good challenge... no one refresh any time soon or ever
rbrb guys
@thefourtheye rbrb
@DSM Nice. I'm pretty sure I've seen it before, but it still makes me chuckle.
Anyway, I just noticed that it's way past rhubarb time.
DSM
DSM
Then rhubarb for you!
16:20
You look scary @Jon…
Yay, I have a puppy sidekick now.
@JonClements: so now I switch it back to i.sstatic.net/UyCTF.jpg, right?
:-P
cbg :-)
Okay folks. That's my casual lurking done for the day
Rhubarb
Three legged puppy turns into a ninja puppy.. :-)
biz[i].startswith("A" or "C" or "G" or "T")
;_;
16:33
@vaultah …
This question
for i in xrange(biz.__len__()): how... Creative.
Normally when I tell recruiters that I don't want to move to London they say "Oh, okay then.". Just had a recruiter that was genuinely shocked and said "What? Why not? What's wrong with London?" She sounded genuinely insulted.
@Kevin at least they're using xrange :)
16:36
and "hey up" for @DSM benefit - it's my greeting of choice IRL - until I slip into saying cabbage to someone without thinking about it, which I imagine is inevitable.
OTOH they use Python 2... D:
I still haven't said "cabbage" as a greeting irl yet, but there have been some near misses.
I feel like my text processing and speech processing centers are conceptually far apart enough, that I am very unlikely to mix chatroom mannerisms with IRL ones.
16:47
:)
I didn't see the message anyway
I forget, can non ROs view the history of edited and deleted messages?
I think they can see edited, but not removed.
Yes ^
Makes sense.
16:49
@vaultah was just commenting on you using a new 10k power
Hey, hoping someone can point me to some resources. I'm writing a bug tracker in python. Currently it works completely via command line, but I want to give it a web interface. Can anyone provide some links/books/whatever that would be helpful in figuring out how the heck you make web languages interface directly with Python?
@davidism Ahh, well, this wasn't the first time I used it :)
@davidism thanks, I'll look into it
I use python2 ....
someday ill switch to python 3
17:00
@davidism or anyone else in the room: Flask's page says it's a bit shoddy still with python3 just in general. Is that a compelling enough reason to not use python 3 for it? Especially if all the rest of my code is already written in 3.4?
That statement is old, it's completely untrue now.
Awesome
I write production Flask apps in Py3.4 with no problems.
The sopython site is also Flask on 3.4: github.com/sopython/sopython-site
DSM
DSM
Oh, davidism. I had some webby questions for you.
so far my bounty campaign has been a shitty bet
DSM
DSM
17:07
Are you trying to get bounties, or giving them?
@Mitch the problem is that the original author Armin Ronacher is a Python 3 enthusiast turned hater, though I guess he's not responsible for it that much anymore :D
@DSM buying visibility for my answer with a bounty
DSM
DSM
Say again?
Ever break a website so bad it crashed the web browser?
@corvid Adobe's known doing it :P
@vaultah what?
@vaultah how are tuples more sortable than lists?
17:09
does that mean I am as good as adobe?
@vaultah ok you dodged my downvote by shredding it :P
No corvid, it means you're better.
@JoranBeasley :[
@JoranBeasley hmm?
17:11
This is embarrassing
nothing
its cool :P
the thing is, tuples are orderable more naturally, and lists are sortable
@DSM what's up?
@Vaultah had a typo thats all ... he fixed it by making it all zeros :P
@AnttiHaapala 40 rep in 20 hours on a 100-rep bounty doesn't seem so bad ... that's a > 200% return if it keeps up over the week.
DSM
DSM
17:14
@davidism: structural question. I have trouble figuring out where to put stuff when working with a front end, about which I'm hopeless. A colleague is working on something and I'm trying to see if I could make a Python-backed equivalent. I've got a flask backend with db mostly behaving, so if the user was willing purely to work via curl, everything would be fine. :-) [.. cont]
@ZeroPiraeus true :D though I have like coerced 10 of my friends vote it :d
DSM
DSM
But if I want the user to be able to add and subtract widgets -- which I can handle in coffeescript -- with its own internal business logic, and furthermore have that state persist, it seems like I need to stash the information about what the user is looking at in two places, db-side and JS-side. This means that I have two separate classes in two separate languages describing basically the same stuff. That's usually a sign I'm using the wrong model.
tl;dr: how should information about dynamic user-visible state be managed?
off to bed, rbrb all
@DSM well they did have pyjs
but it has been long dead me thinks (practically)
Has anyone got any positive opinion of the [pygame-surface] tag, as the wiki is Pygame is a python wrapper for SDL, which IMO means it should be morphed or synonymised into [pygame].
17:25
IIRC, Surface is just a class in Pygame. It would be like having a Tkinter-canvas tag.
... Oh, we do have a Tkinter-canvas tag.
DSM
DSM
People seem to use the "canvas" tag too, even though it's not the right canvas.
Well, it's not a perfect comparison because Tkinter can do many non-canvas things, but Pygame can't do much if you avoid Surfaces entirely.
@DSM Yup, retagged one of those recently. Got there before the AI.
DSM
DSM
Victory is @matsjoyce's!
Anyway. Merging it into Pygame seems fine. I don't think you lose much by doing so.
17:31
@DSM not the most satisfying answer, but from what I've done with JS frontends, this seems to be a normal way to do things. Once on the server, once on the frontend. You just notice it because you specifically are programming both.
hmm
maybe I'd do some (sigh)
@davidism I could use some "web developer" advice
DSM
DSM
@davidism: Hmm. Thanks, that's reassuring, sort of. Have to say, from dabbling my toe in the frontend world, things that I thought would be easy are pretty complicated, and other things that I thought would have been complicated aren't so bad. The whole setup seems very strange to me. Why, it's almost as if a background in numerics isn't much use when it comes to web programming!
@AnttiHaapala I'll "help" if I can
what kind of tool did you have?
I'd have to retag by hand some C questions (remove ansi possibly)
"some" being 500
they don't belong to 1 category
I have it on my home computer, I can upload it later tonight. It just requires a simple fix to get the raw content rather than the safe content from the api.
17:43
haha :d
DSM
DSM
Apparently it didn't, though. :-)
"I want the last key in the dictionary to be the first key in the column." (sigh)
Does anyone know how to specify scipy gamma distribution using shape and rate params?
Amazing.
18:06
hi. quick survey: is this a troll or just someone who's really bad at asking questions? stackoverflow.com/questions/29902756/…
Hard to say.
He lost a bet i guess :p
I’m really spoilt by the rep on SO… Whenever I visit another SE site and I keep trying something that has been working for me on SO forever.
Ahhhhh Lounge<C++>. Never change.
18:18
^ xD
Today I am annoyed by code that looks like if expr: thing; elif not expr: other_thing
ouuuh
why...just.._why_?
I like if (some_condition) return True else return False
thats my favorite antipatern with if else
anti-pattern
if ((some_boolean_condition) == True):
or even better to be really sure use #is
bah i dont know how to bold apparently
18:31
Good point. if (((some_boolean_condition) == True) is True):
Why not both? if some_bool == True and some_bool is True
Just to make super-duper-sure.
btw if anyone is looking for some cool .... I recommend "Catch Fire and Halt" I watched the first 4 episodes this weekend on netflix ... awesome so far
I need something to watch after I finish re-watching Castle. Thinking BSG.
I still have three episodes of Daredevil to get through
Oh an unpatched wordpress vulnerability ?
18:35
just to reiterate I believe almost every person in this room will greatly enjoy "Catch Fire and Halt"
not available on german netflix :/
Try searching for "Halt and Catch Fire" instead ;-)
that
shoot :P
C++ room is flagging a lot today.
Im an idiot :P
"Halt and Catch Fire"
18:36
yeah, hrhr, still nothing
its some made up command from 1980's consoles that basically was a forkbomb
Halt and Catch Fire, known by the assembly mnemonic HCF, refers to several computer machine code instructions that cause a computer's CPU to cease meaningful operation. The expression "catch fire" is intended as a joke; the CPU does not literally catch fire, but it does stop functioning. It is also occasionally referred to as "SDI" for "Self Destruct Immediate". == In early CPUs == In a computer's assembly language, mnemonics are used that are directly equivalent to machine code instructions. The mnemonics are frequently three letters long, such as ADD, CMP (to compare two numbers), and JMP (jump...
oh maybe not madeup ... I see now
but the show is great
I watched ... three, I think ... episodes of H&CF. I, er, do not share Joran's opinion of it ;-)
18:38
uuh yay, found it on amazon instant video. thanks, i'll try it out right now
fine fine ... maybe you wont like it but I thought it was amazing
doesnt amazon charge you per show?
I have a feeling that there's a brilliant answer using itertools for this question. Something with groupby or takewhile or something.
thats expensive
Wow apparently it's snowing in North Wales O_o
@Kevin yeah that was my first thought too
18:40
I feel like I've read a post by Jon before, where he clumped sequence elements together based on state change. Ex. [1,0,0,1,0] becomes [[1,0,0], [1,0]].
but since takewhile consumes tokens it would be lossy
Hmm, maybe something terrible with zip...
yeh ... I stand by my current answer
even though its not exactly the same
donkey kong is more popular cause he keeps the *
I guess
@JoranBeasley groupby
18:55
>>> x = ['*a', 'b', 'c', '*d', 'e', '*f', '*g']
>>> reduce(lambda rest, cur: rest + [cur] if cur.startswith("*") else rest[:-1] + [rest[-1] + cur], x, [])
['*abc', '*de', '*f', '*g']
Not recommended.
Hrmph, anyone good at mongo here? (waits for Antti's response about mongo stuff)
i think groupby(x,lambda x:x.startswith("*"))
@corvid :D :P
@corvid I am pretty good :D
(not that it would make me useful) :D
@JoranBeasley Ok, then you have [['*a'], ['b', 'c'], ['*d'], ['e'], ['*f', '*g']]. Now what?
@BhargavRao that comment is now at 100
18:58
hmmm :P
I'm not sure if I am doing this right... Pulling an element from an array to replace it with a nearly identical object. I just can't find a way to update an array with a specific key
wouldn't be surprised if it cannot be done
I tried the groupby route. I got to that point and thought, "now I'll just group adjacent pairs together, and..." but then you get either ['*abc', '*de', '*f*g'] or ['*abc', '*de'], depending on whether you discard the fifth group because you can't pair it with a nonexistent sixth group.

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