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16:00
@JonClements Sometimes people just get your goat. Which plays hell with the rituals ...
3
Who are Pastafarians?
C&P fail.
cbg, I missed all the fun :(
16:00
@MartijnPieters lol
@BoltClock not for me to say, but could you just give him a warning about chat usage? At the way he's going about it, he's abusive
@MartijnPieters I thought you were making a point about the views of the room :)
@MartijnPieters I visit that ... and then
> Want to be a Pastafarian minister? Official ordination certificates: $25
Sounds legit.
@JonClements He's a special snowflake
16:02
At the moment any RO will kick-mute his presence if he continues his "spree"
DSM
DSM
Why can't we all just eat from the cabbage of friendship?
We're all special unique snowflakes, just like everyone else.
@DSM ... we were supposed to save that? No one wrote their name on it in the fridge!
@BoltClock his behaviour in this room - has not gone un-noticed... we're tolerant, we've tried to advise, there's only so much we can do...
DSM
DSM
@davidism: well, as the one who started the idea in the first place, I suppose you're entitled to the first bite..
16:11
@BoltClock if you have time, may I have a private chat?
@JonClements I am a little busy but I can listen and forward it to the right people if need be
Hmm, considering adding an entry to my Tkinter Grievances file. "IntVar and friends don't work unless you've created a Tk instance previously, despite them being nothing but mutable primitive values"
And of course, the error message for when you do create an IntVar before a Tk, is entirely unhelpful.
How to edit a locked post? Should I ask some one to do it on meta?
DSM
DSM
If it's locked, is it really so important?
Important as in ... the tags are wrong
209
Q: How do I move the turtle in LOGO?

Joel SpolskyHow do I move the turtle in LOGO?

A mod asked the question ...
16:13
Uh oh
And the tags are wrong
@BhargavRao A co-founder of Stack Overflow asked the question. He is always right
Sorry, But refers to Turtle RDF
@BoltClock My memory constantly is filled without useless info pushing some more info out - if you'd be so kind to create a private room (that only mods can) and invite another mod that may have time to discuss - that'd be good?
DSM
DSM
@BhargavRao: ah, I see.
16:15
@BhargavRao This question was asked in 2009, at which time was completely meaningless
FYI, a historically-locked question will not show up in any of its tag pages, so you don't have anything to worry about
Yeah, but still :( ... Saw it today ...
I don't have the reference, but that actually should have the lock. It was some famous question that they got all the time or something, I remember hearing about it in a blog post or podcast.
Can't you use your powers
Don't mess with it.
I can, but I don't want to because it's sacred
4
16:16
Oh Ok... So that is sacrilegious ... Then no need ... Thanks
Reminds me of when a Q:\ drive showed up in all my Windows explorer windows. I googled it, and the experts said, "don't worry, it's not harmful, it's just a side effect of the Microsoft Office installation process". And I was like, "Ok, it's not hurting anyone, but it's still there".
(that actually worked? I'm impressed)
Jeff Atwood on February 22, 2011

On Podcast #58, Joel and I had a disagreement. Not the first, and certainly won’t be the last:

Joel says that the only bad simple question is a duplicate simple question. I say simple questions are OK as long as they’re actually interesting (in some way) for other users to consider and answer. To prove his point, Joel actually asks the question on Stack Overflow: How do I move the turtle in LOGO? Do you think this question adds value?

We still have this disagreement. Our community is now struggling with the very same issue across multiple network sites: …

I guess he actually wanted but in urgent he did it the wrong way
... and to this day, I still have the "microsoft office click to run protected (Q:)" drive, looking at me every time I browse files.
16:19
@Kevin When you're activated, your mission parameters will appear there.
Who told you I was Jason Bourne in real life? Augh, my cover's blown.
Gotta destroy the evidence. Ok, I have a rolled up newspaper and a full complement of climber's gear in my trunk, how can I use this to wipe out a chat transcript...
DSM
DSM
You should probably have chosen a different name than Kevin "Starbait" Kevinson if you wanted to stay inconspicuous.
Times like this, I wish I was MacGyver in real life :-(
what kind of GUI lib is good to use to handle events on OS environment ? for example get the selected word in a pdf that user held the mouse on it for a while ? in LINUX .
DSM
DSM
MacGuyver: technical ingenuity +advanced biosuit!
16:25
@DSM I'd watch it!
@KasraAD I use win32api when I need to detect mouse presses on an OS level. But of course that only works for Windows.
Maybe there's a Linux32api??? Probably not.
@Kevin so what about tkinter ?
@KasraAD unrelated to question, but please read english.stackexchange.com/questions/4645/…
Tkinter is only able to detect mouse clicks if the cursor is inside the Tkinter window, and the window has focus. You won't be able to detect mouse clicks on a foreign PDF rendering window.
You should look at pyglet, it has extensive input support on linux, windows, and mac
@davidism you link this so often !
:D
16:28
I am on a crusade. :-[
@Kevin ah, yes , thanks . i think so
DSM
DSM
@davidism: is that the pygame replacement you recommended a while ago?
yeah
@davidism Doesn't appear to be effective ;-)
@davidism thanks i;ll check it out
16:29
pyglet is not specifically meant for games, it just has a cross platform window/input library with a good event loop and bindings for opengl
On the other hand, it has no built in widgets, you have to write everything.
actually, I'm not sure if it will help you. The X client only sends events to the focused window (unless you're the root window). Global shortcuts might be dependent on the window manager
DSM
DSM
These days whenever I think of writing a GUI for something I think "so how am I going to make this work remotely?" and then I decide I might as well go for a web interface anyhow. :-/
Cabbage! So, I was trying to follow up on why the all-might moderator have been summoned. Can anyone summarize what happened? I am so curious!
flags
Someone was naughty?
Wasn't me being all shouty/shouted at this time which is nice
16:34
@IntrepidBrit :-D
Recap: Beauregard has a history of asking simple questions and disregarding the answers he gets. Today he made one or two inflammatory messages, which got flagged a lot.
His final message had the connotation of "I'm out of here", so the issue might be resolved. (or maybe not.)
DSM
DSM
@IntrepidBrit: that reminds me, I think I missed the opportunity to shout at you a while back. Alba gu bràth!
I'd say that 15% of posts saying "I'm never coming back" keep their promise
@Kevin The guy with the cyclops like icon, right? I have noticed this guy... Kind of seen it coming. Thanks for recap.
Also, I'm disappointed in the lack of chat flags I'm getting. As a 10k user I demand drama!
Now that I'm looking at the privileges, did the 15k privilege change from "tag wiki edits" to "protect questions"?
16:38
@DSM Ach, hud yer wheesht
Where did you pick that one up from?
DSM
DSM
If you knew what DSM stood for, you wouldn't ask that. :-) Suffice it to say much fun was had on the 25th.
Dangerous Smelly Man?
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), published by the American Psychiatric Association, offers a common language and standard criteria for the classification of mental disorders. It is used, or relied upon, by clinicians, researchers, psychiatric drug regulation agencies, health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, the legal system, and policy makers together with alternatives such as the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), produced by the World Health Organization (WHO). The DSM is now in its fifth edition...
DSM
DSM
Aw, that started so well with "Dangerous" but then fell off..
16:43
@davidism 15k was always "protect questions" AFAIK...
DSM
DSM
Oddly enough, I do have a copy of that DSM on the shelf for work reasons..
@puredevotion Cabbage!
huh, maybe I'm just crazy then, check that book
cbg(devotion)
anyone experience with WTforms nested FormFields? (thus a FieldList(FormField() in FieldList(FormField()) ?
16:45
Can I test if an object is of type Foo without actually importing Foo?
Yeah, my experience was "I don't want to deal with that", then I implemented a separate json api and frontend
@user939259 just import it
@davidism For some specific reasons, I don't want to import it...hence my question
@davidism I'm almost there, I got FieldLists and FormFields all set and done :)
yeah, whatever that reason is, it's not a good idea, fix your code so that you can import it
@davidism Unfortunately it's not my code that's the reason; it's a 3rd party library
16:47
stop being vague
DSM
DSM
Well, I guess you could do str(type(x)), I guess, although it's an ugly hack..
(and I can think of cases where that would fail.)
@DSM I was thinking the same here.
DSM
DSM
But it's nine kinds of blek.
@davidism I'm not being vague, I have a very specific question.
yeah, checking class names is probably not good, and how would you know the value of str(<class I can't import>) to compare against
16:48
Thanks I will try str(type(x))
DSM
DSM
@davidism: well, if I know what the result is after importing, but for some reason I don't want to import, it'll help.. but without some details about the use case it's hard not to think we have an XY problem here.
@user939259 you need to tell us a) what library and b) what reason, otherwise this really sounds like an XY problem
DSM
DSM
Ha! Beat you to the XY prob reference!
@user939259 basically, you have a "very specific question" that you haven't told us any details about
OK, sure, here's the problem: I'm using likwid-pin to do round-robin thread pinning of my process. When importing even a small class from Pandas, pandas spins up about a dozen threads from C extensions it uses, even though I don't need any of those threads. This screws up likwid-pin. I only need this small pandas class in unusual cases, so I'm trying to check for it without actually importing it at the beginning of the module, since importing it spins up all those threads
16:52
I was surprised to discover a C:\DSM directory on my computer the other day, and I briefly wondered how @DSM got his hands on it. I no longer believe he's complicit, but I still don't know why the folder is there.
The icon for the DSMScript.exe file does have a passing resemblance to his avatar, on the other hand...
@user939259 Import it when the unusual case happens.
@Kevin watch out for the psychological hax0rs
@user939259 So how exactly would you be able to get an object of the type you did not import (so you can get True on that comparison)? Am I missing something?
@Fenikso It would be passed to me from an external module that wouldn't be loaded unless I'm running in non-production mode
DSM
DSM
16:55
So much for my clever disguise..
Both are grayish, roundish patterns of nearly identical size. Coincidence?!?!?
uncanny likeness
@user939259 But is not it already loaded then? Imported by the external module or something?
If the object exists, the module that defines it must have been imported at some point, so a second import costs you nothing.
@Fenikso In production mode, it's not imported by the external module, and I don't want to import it in my current code. In non-production mode, I load up the external module and a bunch of other stuff, so I don't care about all the extra threads and stuff
16:58
So you import conditionally?
if unusual_case:
    import expensive_module
    # do stuff
@Fenikso I suppose you could say that...when I run "my_testing_script.py" it gets imported, but I run "my_production_script.py" it doesn't need to be imported. Right now both import my_time_conversion_module.py, which imports the pandas class, which spins up a zillion threads
@user939259 So why do you not do some if PRODUCTION: skip test to weird class?
@Fenikso Yeah I could define some kind of global variable
@user939259 importing shouldnt have side effects...
17:02
@AnttiHaapala 3rd party module.
@AnttiHaapala I totally agree with that....I asked the pandas guys to not spin up all those threads...They said WontFix
aha :D
so import pandas does threads?
Bloody hell
Not only does "import pandas" spin up threads, but "from pandas.tslib import Timestamp" creates a bunch of threads, which is totally ridiculous
The pilot's just been burned alive
The Jordanian pilot being held by IS
(is Jordanian the right demonym for Jordan?)
Sorry
Guys, I need help with another stupid question... gist.github.com/martin-wiseweb/0d5619fbf4814763c81b I'm getting indices must be integers, not str for self.text[lang]. I think I get why the error is showing up, but how can I have a text index with a similar structure?
1 message moved to Trash can
you're trying to index what I'm guessing is a string with another string, which makes no sense
17:08
@Martin self.text is list or string. You wanted dictionary.
@Fenikso I thought as much. So if I know I need a dictionary, in which each first-level value is another dictionary, but I don't know how many there will be or what they will be called, how can I do this?
Actually it is a dictionary
Updated with full class definition
@Martin No. But when you create self.text it needs to be created as a dictionary.
self.text = []
a list
Oops lol
I guess I undid it
So if I just changed it to self.text = dict() it should be good?
@Martin or = {}. I did not check semantically, but you should not get the same error.
DSM
DSM
It's a little odd for text to be the name of a dictionary, and I think Python customs lean against returning an object from a set operation, but that's not always observed (e.g. pandas.)
17:13
Thanks @Fenikso works like a charm
style nitpick: functions whose names start with "set" shouldn't return anything
@Kyle okay thanks
Woops, beaten by @DSM
@DSM This is kind of a rough draft. I'm gonna go over it when it functions how I want to make it more "pythonic"
Can I do return self or is that no kosher either?
You could do it if you specifically want to allow method chaining, ex. my_thing.frob(23).troz(42).
But if you don't need chaining, I wouldn't bother
17:15
Alright cool
I was thinking whether I will do that but I don't think so
DSM
DSM
Which is why it's done in pandas, to allow chaining, mostly because a lot of the other stats tools allow it and people would complain too much otherwise.
@Kevin counterexample: set()
mind=blown
DSM
DSM
@Zero: go to your room and think about what you just did.
Thanks again for the help guys!
DSM
DSM
17:18
Watermelons for you.
I am so angry at myself
How long has GIMP had a colour to alpha option?!
Forever.
user image
5
Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Cabbages man from Avatar, the Last Airbender?
17:30
That was my intention
I don't actually know if it's had one forever. I just said that hoping it would increase your pain
Oh god. I can't unsee those images
Pass the bleach
Bleach is not the answer! Use HF acid.
Takes too long. By the time you've gotten into your suit, I might have started to mentally recover to reconsider my ill thought out plan
My go-to answer for "how long has..." questions is "since the Before Times"
Which suggests that I'm part of a morlock-esque primitive tribe of apocalypse survivors, whose history has faded into myth.
You can't prove I'm not!
17:37
cbg
"The nuclear apocalypse mutated my genes, now my face is composed of green and white geometric shapes"
My tribesmen no longer accept me, but at least this strange lightning box shows interesting words sometimes.
@AnttiHaapala Aspargus
DSM
DSM
Office discussion which came up yesterday: if I say something is in my wheelhouse, do you know what I mean? If someone says "not his jam", do you know what they mean?
You work in the bread industry?
17:38
I do, but I don't know their etymology.
Seriously: I could probably make a stab at their meaning - but I would have to double check
dumb question... for developers, is a setup.py or just a requirements.txt preferred?
DSM
DSM
See, I know wheelhouse -- and its baseball history -- but I hadn't heard "not his jam" before, so I was wondering if it's something the kids say. (One of the newbies said it, and she's considerably younger than me.)
cbg @Jerry
cbg @Bonifacio2
17:40
KevinScript has neither setup.py nor requirements.txt, and I am now self conscious about their absence and will go eat ice cream in bed.
a bloo bloo bloo, when will I ever be a grown-up developerrrr
@Jerry recovered your interest in programming? :)
No, rather overwhelmed by work atm ^^;
@DSM I've heard "this is my jam" in the specific context of "this is a song I really like", For at least the last 15 years or so.
It's not too much of a leap to mutate "jam" to be "general thing that I am into"
I have heard "not his jam" with the same meaning as Kevin-san.
I don't know wheelhouse at all.
DSM
DSM
Oh, wow. I hadn't thought in that direction at all. I was thinking it was like "not my cup of tea" -> "not my flavour of jam" -> "not my jam". I wasn't thinking of "jam" like "groove".
17:43
@Jerry Isn't programming your main occupation?
ehhh... nope! ^^;
I use it sometimes at work to make things easier
I mean, I assume that's the progression. It could just as easily be tea-based. Language is wild and crazy like that.
@Jerry Nice. hacking the world is fun. :)
and there's like no one else in the dept that can do what I do, so the complex stuff usually comes my way
It could be based on the Devon cream tea, for it is eaten with jam and clotted cream -> "That's not my cup of tea, for you have it the Cornish way and the jam is improperly placed" -> "That's not my jam"
17:46
My ideal job is to be the only programmer in an office of workers that process Excel documents in a highly predictable manner. What takes them 8 hours, takes me five minutes, and then I play Minecraft until quitting time.
When questioned by the boss, I tell him that it's a 3D operating system, like in Jurassic Park. "See that skeleton? It's a malformed Excel row. Bam! Diamond sword to the face. Now our books balance"
DSM
DSM
When she gets back from lunch, I'm going to ask her if she takes her tea the Cornish way.
I'm expecting a follow-up visit from HR.
Thanks DSM. I now have soggy, tea soaked notes
@Kevin just program the automation in Minecraft, tell him that playing the game also maintains the code
DSM
DSM
Can Minecraft implement a Turing machine? If so, you could probably pull it off, with enough work.
Minecraft is turing complete, but it's slow. Like, ten minutes to add two 8 bit ints slow.
17:51
which is why you 8 hour day is still justified
turing machine != turing complete
At least it was a year ago. These days they have "command blocks" which can do all sorts of things, most of which I consider cheating
DSM
DSM
Are you sure the other workers haven't already followed this approach, hence the eight hours?
@Kevin sopython mc world needs a KevinScript interpreter in it
"minecraft is turing complete" does not mean you can implement a turing machine in it :D
17:52
yeah, yeah, no infinite tape
it only means it is computationally equivalent
It also has a rather limited memory range because, even though the world is the size of Jupiter, only the blocks in a 200~ meter radius are actually updated. So you can't use anything farther away to store memory or perform calculations.
well, unless you modify the server
DSM
DSM
Now that's going to be a problem. How do you play chess against other players if you can't build something in a forest to serve as a board?
Hmm, unless you do something truly wacky with putting the user in a minecart, so you can whisk him along the memory tape as it runs...
DSM
DSM
17:53
[Note: never played Minecraft, so I have no idea what's possible.[
@DSM we have a server, point the client at sopython.com and I'll whitelist you
You can construct a chess board in Minecraft, but it will be 64 meters wide and all the pieces will be cubes.
but not right now, I'm at work
Er, 16 meters. However many squares there are on a chess board. Whatever.
17:55
My lunch is dry and flavorless. I have added salt, which makes it un-flavorless, but it is now double dry. I question the wisdom of this act.
usually... dunno what kind of chess they play on your homeworld, @Kevin
add water next
@AnttiHaapala I knew it was a power of two! :-)
all right, got enough padding over 10k now to downvote all the things
DSM
DSM
Mental note: challenge Kevin to chess for money.
3
18:00
@Kevin can you play backgammon?
@davidism Priorities. First I finish the PyKevinScript interpreter, so we can staple it to RABBIT, then I make the JSKevinScript interpreter, so I can put a REPL up on the web. Maybe JKevinScript will come out for the 2.0 release.
what even is an association_proxy? Is it just a relationship that is defined on a specific attribute of the other model?
associationproxy
okay, who's up for some MTG on steam?
what's MTG?
18:02
*looks at the website*
*looks back to Jon*
*looks back to website*
Damnit
gonna reboot W8 (rbrb)
@corvid Magic: The Gathering
user559633
MTG : magic the giraffe IIRC
user559633
@Kevin dip your lunch in water so that it's not dry.
Add another tickmark to the "reasons the ROs might be satanists" column.
MTG: the devil's game!!! dramatic musical sting
@tristan I have solved the problem by eating the food. Humans are 90% water, so it should be well moisturized quite soon.
@AnttiHaapala Personally? No. In Minecraft? I don't think so, as there's no way to simulate dice that I am aware of.
user559633
18:05
@Kevin I usually don't find much water in humans. Lots of blood, but water? Not so much
Maybe it's behind the blood.
DSM
DSM
"Maybe there's some in this truck!"
user559633
unrelated, but if anyone asks, i wasn't in providence last night
@DSM I understood that reference.
... As soon as I googled it.
DSM
DSM
I've been to Providence!
18:08
soooooooooooooooooooooooo................... sloooooooooooooow......
windows is installing updates......
DSM
DSM
@Kevin: she meant it in the sense of "groove", it seems.
I bet if I click on steam, that's gonna need updates
As I suspected. Luckily my sister is much cooler than me and can tell me of such things.
See also, "can you not?" and "I can't even". Try to use context clues to determine the missing verbs, because you're not getting them any other way.
DSM
DSM
Wow that's
user559633
"I can't even not"
18:10
Now you're getting it! :-)
user559633
i'm guilty though. i've raised a CanYouNot as an exception and a ICantEven has a gateway timeout error in the past year
haha
user559633
504 Nginx Cant Even
DSM
DSM
Best exceptions ever. Plus I still like my comment. :-)
meh. I'm getting an annoying error. If you have two classes in the same file, and need to reference the other class in each, how is that usually handled? trying to make a many-to-many relationship
18:13
@tristan And that's not a blood-spattered salesman's tie in your luggage, right?
user559633
I "called out" some crappy recruiter behavior on linkedin and OH BOY is it like leaving out a jar of honey for shitty bees.
user559633
@ZeroPiraeus ahah nope! i ended up implementing the solution of "whiskey and headphones"
user559633
Ugh. I computered too much and now my computer doesn't want to be a computer anymore. "Service Battery" warning on my macbook air, but how? It's unibody
@corvid you havent finished yet?
Isnt time almost up?
@JoranBeasley nah, three days now. 5pm on Thursday. It's like Majora's Mask. Speaking of which I should add an easter egg for it
18:17
@tristan Reminds me of "I HAVE NO TOOLS BECAUSE I'VE DESTROYED MY TOOLS WITH MY TOOLS", from this article about the plight of systems engineers.
user559633
Bookmarked to read later and reasonably excited to do so
I found it to be a fun read :-)
didnt you say yesterday they only were giving you 24 hours
"You have 24 hours... Starting 24 hours from now. With a 24 hour probationary period in between"
re-cbg
18:20
@kevin lol
@corvid make the first argument to relationship a no-arg lambda as well
or use strings
sqlalchemy supports both, but I like lambdas because refactoring works better
@JoranBeasley totally read it wrong, they were referring to something else
@corvid the association proxy abstracts the direct model access to return a simpler representation of a collection
davidism you're really good at explaining these things
using custom collection classes and association proxies you can get pretty clever collections such as a dict of nested sets that supports insertion
18:25
I kind of wish something existed like in mongoose models where you could add special validators on a path in SQLAlchemy... maybe I am just doing it wrong
Downloading a 918Mb album from 2 peers through VPN is pain :(
what's mongoose?
@davidism it's like an ORM for MongoDB in Node.js
user559633
it's node.js, so shouldn't it be async?
user559633
osemongo
18:27
those associations can slow down your queries significantly if you are not careful
if you get the job I think you owe all of us a few beers :P
user559633
@corvid web dev job at harvard?
@tristan Research job for bioinformatics, bioinformatics is a huge field in these parts
I use the proxies for convenience, but I always make sure to subqueryload the relationship paths that will be used, then there's little overhead (at least at the query level)
user559633
@corvid that's awesome...and they're having you do a web app for the interview? (or is that unrelated?)
@JoranBeasley definitely... not gonna lie, most of my knowledge of SQLAlchemy comes from sopy source code and stackoverflow
user559633
18:30
don't worry about performance. if you wanted performance, you'd be using node.js anyway
I'm mostly worried about clarity and simplicity, that's why I'm using Flask, it's probably the best framework for that
@tristan yeah they have a basic screening assignment before full interview, I guess they had a lot of applicants
user559633
18:43
what does the application need to do?
Problem statement is just "A Facebook" written in smeared pen on a damp cocktail napkin
@tristan its some crud interface using angular.js
user559633
That's a legit assignment
It certainly reflects the clarity and intelligence of real-world clients ;-)
I woulda just done django model ... and given them the /admin url and password
5 minutes and done
and told them where they can stick their silly angular
user559633
18:48
@Kevin i've talked with someone that wanted a "technical cofounder" that had an idea about that well thought out
user559633
the point is typically to get the job @JoranBeasley
I would ... I would have shown them I can get the job done without having to reinvent the wheel
Not like my business idea, "digitally adding animated googly eyes to images", which has all the information a technical cofounder could need.
angular part feels very tacked on anyway :P
(cept I guess its some kind of front end job ... but meh ...)
user559633
@Kevin that's amazing
18:51
@tristan make workflows, where each workflow has a series of categories associated with it. Then have a CRUD interface in Angular.js to access it
All image manipulation is done client-side, with a secret coroutine that grinds out fractions of bitcoins and emails them to us. That's the revenue stream.
@Kevin lol nice
I'm glad you guys like it. I'm putting "reviewer feedback has been 100% positive" on my fact sheet.
Brb, mortgaging home for this sure bet
@davidism Bananas! I got it working. The nesting was really not that bad after all. Now I only need to add it to the DB :-$
nice!
18:55
I love sentences that begin with "Now I only need to ..."
If you don't say "ok, now I'm 90% done" at least three times during a project, you're a pessimist.
although it's understandable, I'm annoyed that extended iterable unpacking can't handle an infinite sequence by storing the final state of the iterable as the catch-all

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