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17:08
@DSM how is Anaconda's env/install support compared to virtualenv/pip? Is it worth switching?
DSM
DSM
@davidism: TBH I'm not sure about the env stuff; I just use it on windows because I'm far too lazy to deal with the hassle of setting up the dozens of libraries I need before I think Python is installed.
ehhh setup tools makes it pretty dang easy
can you install normal pip stuff in anaconda? or only the anaconda packages?
DSM
DSM
You can install via pip. But I think you're underestimating the headaches that can happen when you're trying to get various libs set up -- there's a reason that so many people send Gohlke fruit baskets every month.
Windows problems ;)
17:25
yeah I use his stuff alot ...
user559633
lol windows
lol windows [microsoft hololens]
I could implement this in one line, but I'm not feeling inclined to share with OP
yeah I would if it was me .... but make sure its nice and cryptic :P
while we're talking about it,
Unclear. Just because you put a question mark at the end of a sentence, that does not make it an actual question
DSM
DSM
17:40
You're probably right?
@Kevin post it here, I'm interested in drawing stuff but have no idea how.
Those gifs you make every now and then are pretty cool.
I haven't actually tried to implement it, although I probably will after my lunch torpor
user559633
i actually see the hololens as microsoft becoming more efficient at being behind the curve. the oculus rift is only 3 years old and only in the past 2 years, 11 months was obviously going to not take hold
I saw something about a Sony version of Google Glass somewhere recently.
yeah I think the holo lens is significantly different tech than Occulous or glass
user559633
17:47
Yeah, there's actually a bunch of players in the wearable space
user559633
tristan's 9th rule of product: people don't like wearing goofy shit on their head
DSM
DSM
Is there a slick way to remove the "code snippet" boxes given that Python isn't supported (and it wouldn't usually work anyhow)?
You mean editing them out of someone's post? No.
Wonder if you could do it with a userscript and regex
Alright, I decided to do that guy's homework. If he can find our room, hidden as it is in the mists of obscurity, I think he's earned it.
(lambda t: (t.left(45), [t.forward(20) if dir == "f" else (t.left if dir == "l" else t.right)(90) for i in range(4) for dir in "frflfrflfrfrfrflfrflfrf"], t.right(45)))(__import__("turtle"))
17:53
lol no you should comment it sersly
(works best on the REPL, otherwise the window closes immediately)
DSM
DSM
What wizardry is this?
@tristan I would gladly wear that holo lens on my head ... its not meant for walking around in public though I dont think ... but hell yeah Id wear that around my house ... :P
someone clearly copied and pasted their HW
@DSM and kevin came up with a nice one liner to help them out :P
user559633
@JoranBeasley so, then you've pre-ordered?
I'm sending various "forward", "left", and "right" commands to the turtle module by taking advantage of the short-circuiting nature of the x if y else z expression. Also, __import__ trickery so I don't have to use semicolons to import while staying on one line.
17:55
lol the dev kit thats comming in march ... naw not quite ... im gonna wait till the price comes down
:P
user559633
We have you down as a "i wouldn't be caught dead wearing that goony crap in public, but i might wear it around the house sometime, but like, i wouldn't spend money for it"
no I would .... just not quite yet ... I would like to see more than the concept video ... but dang that thing looked amazing to me :P
and I would wait for gen2 to come out so I could get it cheap on craigslist :P
Augmented reality is an interesting concept to me, but I worry that processing latency is an insurmountable obstacle to a seamless experience. When a person moves their head, they expect their field of view to also move with no lag.
user559633
i wonder if it will even see a full launch before getting scrapped (it's going to get scrapped)
user559633
@Kevin :) also the processing power is right next to your head in those, which is something i don't understand
user559633
17:59
offload it to a more powerful device either in the room or that sits on your hip
user559633
otherwise, you have an face-burning device stuck near your cookable eyes
But that will add an additional (c*length of your torso*2) seconds of latency!
I'm waiting for implants that just override our nervous system. See Sword Art Online (but don't actually watch it, the story's terrible).
user559633
you can't run that amount of processing in that form factor
user559633
anyway, RIP hoLOLens
18:02
Addendum: I think a seamless experience is possible, but you would have to re-engineer your own brain to operate at slower speeds, in order to lower perceived lag.
user559633
^^ niiice
It might seem like a bad deal to slow down your own brain, but I'm willing to pay eight real-time hours if I can spend a perceived 30 minutes being Godzilla and destroying Tokyo with perfect 100% immersion
user559633
i wonder if they're focused first on getting non-environmental usage working. it's one matter to detect where a hand (generally) is, an entire different beast to re-map interactions to changing surfaces
yeah my friend did the occulous rift and that was his big complaint ... the lag when looking around
the Game of Thrones wall elevator thing ... he said it was only like 2 minutes .... I live somewhere rural Im not even sure where I could go to play with that shit ...
and I still think that holo-lens looks bad ass ... even if I concede the point that it might fail from a comercial standpoint
Arguably, ambitious engineering projects are valuable even if the end product is no good.
If they make just one novel discovery in the process, they're nudging forward the limits of human understanding.
Assuming they don't just invoke "trade secrets" and hide it in their vault forever.
its cool I gave him an answer
Might be a work assignment, actually. There's lots of text parsing in the corporate world.
thats even more sad
still voting as broad, since there's lots of ways to do this
I need some help ... I installed windows yesterday(For the first time) ... How do you get Python running from cmd prompt. ?
18:19
You may have to update your PATH environment variable.
Oh that sounds bad.. Have any blog how to do it or any video?
In Windows 7: Go to the start menu, right click "My Computer" and choose "properties". Choose "advanced system settings" from the list on the left.
no you shouldnt .... just make sure you install python
with the msi ... that should take care of all of that
oh no I lied
forget that ... I forget I always have to setup the path :( bah
It's same in 8.1 ... Set it to the python.exe?
Choose the "Advanced" tab, and press the "environment variables" button. highlight the "PATH" entry and press the "Edit" button. in the "Variable value" text box, scroll all the way to the right, and enter a semicolon, followed by the full path leading to the directory that contains your python executable.
ex. "...\whatever\last\entry;C:\programming\python\Scripts"
DSM
DSM
18:22
Gah, the first guy to make a comment is partly wrong, and then the second is wrong too.
IIRC, I do think there is an option in the msi to update PATH for you, but I don't think it's checked by default.
Oh yeah, and after doing this you should close any open cmd windows and open them again. Old ones won't see the change.
Small question on Flask/WTForms: if I add form-fields client-side to the form, and then POST it, how do a) assure proper validation of all fields, and b) handle those newly client-side added fields?
I'm trying to RTFM, but can't seem to hit the right key-words in le Google
(altohugh I found the iterator over all fields, so I guess that solves b )
@Kevin Was trying in old cmd.. Now working, But I have to just give python to start and not python3 as in ubu.. Thanks.. Will be asking noob windows questions for the next 3 weeks :)
18:39
another user that puts sleep in their code so it looks like the computer is thinking.
@Kevin Hooray for progress! Faster computers, now!
@puredevotion fields need to be known beforehand, although maybe you're talking about field enclosures
Not that it needs help closing all that much.
troll
Hrm, here come the unconstructive comments.
But yeah, probably a troll.
18:44
@davidism I'll read up on field enclosures,
But basically the user can add (name, role, description) fields client-side to the page, so it can add as many persons as it wants to a DB
I give a 30% chance the question is sincere, but poorly worded.
Seems to be asking "how do I get all these languages to inter-operate?"
Which is rather broad since there are 4! different potential connections
So you'll need a meta form with a FieldList of FormFields that represent individual rows. Good luck, I don't like complex forms.
I'll get on it! Thanks for input, a bunch keywords that I didn't think of :)
@Kevin the Please help me I want to be a hacker XD doesn't help though.
Agreed.
I wonder whether allocating memory in C and freeing it in Java is really possible... Maybe if you use your OS' memory management API.
DSM
DSM
18:50
Didn't we see a version of this a few minutes ago but with "Generates 4" instead? Or am I losing it due to calorie deprivation?
Although I guess there would be permission issues with two processes trying to manipulate the same memory
@DSM I do recall a "generates 4" question.
@DSM Here is the old version. "Generates" got edited into "serves" at some point, though
Welp,
@poke: don't, that's a troll user.
Near-exact dupe of an existing question that was already closed as too broad
DSM
DSM
18:52
What is up with this Jambon character?
@DSM trolling.
I'm 99% certain we know who it is too.
How do you know that he is a troll user?
You can tell by the pixels, and from having seen many trolls in your day
Lol if you run his code you will certainly get

NameError: name 'Hey' is not defined
its that dude sumer or whatever
18:59
@poke Okay but isn't it so absurd that 'unclear what you're asking' ? It's wrong I think. Even it's a bad question, it's clear what I'm asking — Jambon 1 min ago
Crap
every once in a while he makes like 100 accounts and asks horribly stupid questions
I fell for it once and spent way too long trying to walk him through something simple
Let's not say names, or give more attention than necessary to the troll. It just validates its existence.
Simply post cvs or flags if necessary and move on.
I wonder if I should implement argument unpacking in KevinScript, or be lazy and just provide an apply(function, argument_list) builtin
you going down a dark road there Kevin ... :P
DSM
DSM
If you make it a function it'll be easier to give it a reverse=True keyword which will unpack them in the opposite order.
19:08
Could add a sort argument to unpack them in sorted order, that sounds useful.
KS is explicitly the offspring of Python and js, so I'm free to choose either one while adhering to the desired look and feel
@DSM Keyword arguments are also on the todo list, but much lower
Cabbage!
19:09
@MartijnPieters huh?
DSM
DSM
>>> cabbage.cabbage("Cabbage!")
Cabbage!Cabbage!
ia! ia! Cabbage fhtagn!
@DSM does cabbage print cabbage twice?
@DSM +1
DSM
DSM
It's always about the dreaming Old Ones with you, Kevin.
19:10
I've been reading a lot of Lovecraft lately.
Got the stories off Project Gutenberg a while ago but never read most of them.
DSM
DSM
@BhargavRao: that was a reference to a recently closed question, with a strong cabbage replacement.
I like the concept of gods that regard us as ants, but I actually have read very little Lovecraft.
@DSM I know ... import pprint as cabbage
Just a couple short stories, most of which end with, "...and as I type this, I can hear their squamous forms slithering down my hallway" and I'm all like, "you should probably try running away"
DSM
DSM
19:12
I was on a major kick a few years back. I'm not a big horror fan, but HPL I love.
Yeah yeah, themes of hopelessness and inevitability, but still. Put some effort in.
Haiyore! Nyaruko-san answers the question: What if Lovecraftian monsters were actually cute anime girls?
I would watch that, but I wouldn't admit that I would watch it.
DSM
DSM
I dunno, is one of them a meganekko? 'cause if not, I'm out.
Okay, time for lunch. Forty-five minute rhubarb for all!
The issue with HPL is that it was written in the 20s, and at the time it was terrifying. Now it's not really scary at all, it's still Weird Fiction though.
And the whole mythos that has grown around it is amazing, if I hadn't done physics I think I'd have liked to do English Lit studying HPL.
19:18
The problem with most early works that define a genre. It's the same with a lot of sci-fi classics.
can someone give me a TL;DR on the Lovecraftian genre?
Another troll question I guess: `print v.decode('rot13')` hmm....
The moster is horrifying because its motivations are completely inhuman, there is no reasoning with it or even understanding it.
@poke generally the stories are weird, rather than scary. They usually have epic gods and monsters that are beyond sane imagining. There's a lot of really, really epic world-building in it.
I was annoyed at reddit last year because someone posted a story about a 5-dimensional lovecraftian monster, and talked about how slices of its body would move in and out of our dimension, and he could see the veins and organs within. But this is backwards: we can only see the exterior of the beast, and it can see our veins and organs within.
19:21
Often, it mirrors some inner psychology of the main character.
@Ffisegydd uhuh…
Yeah there's a lot fear and things like that. Also he was one of the first people to introduce zombies as we now know them.
He also has some really interesting stories on dreams.
That commenter should have read more Flatland, which addresses precisely this issue. The sphere character looks like a circle to the protagonist, and he can see people's insides when he's above the flat universe.
@AshwiniChaudhary that was actually somewhat clever then, I doubt most people actually tried to decode it though
D'oh, the rot13 post tricked me until I read the comment that decoded the message
Member for five months... Probably not a troll, just unclear
@AshwiniChaudhary regarding this you marked as a duplicate.. how would you recommend storing the arguments passed through the ocnstructor. example Number(initval=1)
You can set the value in __init__ like say self.initval = initval and then in __get__ use ` getattr(ins, self.name, self.initval)` in the first approach and in the second approach use self.instances.get(ins, self.initval).
I was going to close as "requires minimal reproducing code" since the indentation was wrong, but then you fixed it
70% sure that's a troll post, btw
Naw .. The indent was there
We'll see if the OP gives an obtuse reply to that answer.
Ah .. Yeah
New users do legitimately misunderstand how return works, but I'm extra suspicious today
19:56
yeah with someone lurking around it always raises my suspicions
In Pypy, is time.time() gonna affect performance?
the command will take a nonzero amount of time to execute, yes
But then, so do all commands
("what about the ones optimized away by the interpreter?" That optimization step takes time!)
In cpython it's pretty much free, so I'd included that in every single function I wrote
now I'm not sure if it's biting me in the rear.
I'm mainly wondering if it costs more than in cpython
have you tried profiling it ?
it's been hard profiling my code beyond simply running 20k requests at it every single time I fiddle with something
the profiling code itself slows down pypy to a crawl
to where I'm not sure if I can even believe the results
20:05
try python -m cprofile my_prog.py
then pump the output to runsnakerun
If you're using time.time() in every function so you can profile the performance of your program, I suggest deleting all of them and using a standalone profiling tool
I don't know much about those, so I'll just assume that Joran's suggestions are good
cprofile is a c extension correct? it shouldn't work properly with pypy
yeah .... what kevin said .... I use a few time.time() to profile functions that I expect to take ~ a second or more
ahhh yeah Im not super familliar with pypy
maybe just pprofile?
lol
I actually created a profiling middleware
pretty sure pypy has a profiler
20:08
(I'm using django as a router)
but the thing breaks under load
pypy just has cprofile and profile. but you're right. I should still work with the profiler as a first step.
tahnks
what makes you think the time.time() call is what is causing problems?
This reminds me of how Minecraft measures how much time is spent in each section of the code - rendering, physics, etc. Many functions set a flag that says "Now entering rendering" or "Now exiting physics.tick.entities", etc. I often wondered if this profiling slowed down the code by itself. There's no way to tell, because the design prevented the profiler from profiling itself.
pypy likely is not going to be faster .... im pretty sure its very application dependent
pypy is much better at python loops ... so if you have alot of those than maybe it will be faster
A mock server provided by a third party showed a dramatic performance gain when I switched my app to pypy . Yet my own mock server shows pypy being slightly slower.
ah actually thanks for the reminder
just a thought ... but the profiler will likely show you your problem areas
20:13
yup. will do that right after lunch
thanks
@poke You were taking the troll bait; I was trying to warn you away. :-)
wow, rather than using a code block, this op manually went through and added br and nbsp everywhere: stackoverflow.com/revisions/…
Maybe he wrote a script to do it for him :-)
Forwarding to Trademarks Committee.

(committee, let's discuss it and take Jon off the CC until we can notify him of our discussion; just leaving him in header to know it's being sent there).
So, now we just wait a few months :)
20:29
On a first name basis with the committee, I see.
I wonder what percentage of their business is SOPython related.
Ummm.... interesting... I can hear the panic
-4
Q: Please help with my delete request!

Trevor ClarkePLEASE READ FULLY BEFORE YOU MARK AS DUPLICATE Hello, Last night I sent in a request to delete my account, fine. Then I realized it was a mistake, so I sent in a request marked as "other" asking to cancel my Delete Account request. Today, still no update, my account is still active. What I want ...

Woo hoo - death in paradise on in 20mins... gets imaginary popcorn ready
Needs actual reproducing code
@JonClements I think the OP should have read his own post fully before submitting. His quadruple pound signs didn't render properly.
20:45
Tis the week of tictactoe, number guessing, pick 2 numbers and add/mul/sub and removing vowels from a string week
oh and a couple of Caesar ciphers
I vaguely feel like a thousand men in pointy helmets are yelling at me from very far away
Umm... well I suppose that's much safer than them standing outside your office with pitchforks and flaming torches... chanting... "KEVIN!.... KEVIN!.... KEVIN!"
maybe you should consider getting a sacrificial goat intern named Kevin that you can push outside should such an event occur... you can say it's part of his errr, "training in office diplomacy" or something...
wb @greenhouse
I do like the idea of decoy selves, but the locals here know me by a different name and it's hard finding anyone else that looks like a "dark lord infernicus"
@Kevin just put some glasses on - it worked for Clark Kent
OP claims there's a syntax error, but code runs fine
I think I stepped on Cyber's toes a little there. He's all righteously mad like "nobody's going to run this!" and then I come in and say "I ran it..."
20:58
Well, you ran it without looking at it, that doesn't count.
I really should stop doing that. I'm going to contract a virus that way some day.
Oops, I didn't see os.system("rm -rf *") amongst the millions of lines like print "-=-=-=-=-=- Welcome to Steve's amazing program! -=-=-=-=-"; sleep(1.0)
DSM
DSM
I just accidentally created 250+ windows on my screen. Should pay more attention to what I'm doing.
That's too many windows.
Oops, I guess OP wasn't fibbing about getting a SyntaxError, even though the program parses successfully.
I forgot that input in 2.7 can give a SyntaxError at runtime.
21:02
I would leave a comment about the python library that generates diagrams, but I can't remember what it's called.
Ok, the OP posted his actual code that has actual SyntaxErrors.
So now it's a real question, albeit a very unpleasant one
I made the mistake of indicating the cause of one of the errors, so now I expect to get pulled in with "ok, now I'm getting another error on 712, please fix it for me"
Oh man, I called it
Is there another improper indent at line 712 too because there is also an error there when I fix the previous error. — Matt 1 min ago
I gave a vaguely useful pointer in the form of "you should probably indent lines X through Y in some way". That should buy me some time.
lol, he just keeps going
His tenacity will make him a fine programmer one day. God speed, OP.
DSM
DSM
Having served my time in the mud, I'm content to leave dealing with stuff like that to others.
I engage with these questions because I want everyone to love me. But somehow I think this may not be the most efficient path to that goal.
I should instead become a hard-ass wall street guy, make a trillion dollars, then give it all to charity on my deathbed. kill six billion birds with one stone.
21:18
@Kevin we all love you in our own way...
for instance, I love you enough to not bother employing a hitman...
(In the event that this chat transcript becomes my effective will, note to executor of my estate: do not literally kill six billion birds. This would be counterproductive)
DSM
DSM
Ha. Can't take the average of something but can find the minimum value and add it to the average of the difference between the values and the minimum value. Take that, inconvenient type!
@JonClements That brings me great comfort :-)
@DSM Sounds like you're using a language that doesn't have glorious long ints.
finding the average of [MAX_INT, MAX_INT-2] by summing up the elements and dividing, is not advised
DSM
DSM
Nope, this is some datetimey Python.
Oh, with date/time types, all bets are off
21:22
I bet GCHQ and the NSA are quaking in their boots with this military level encryption - it's so secure, even the OP can't decrypt it :p
DSM
DSM
Sometimes it's fun to watch an answer slowly move up the leaderboard.
greetings @Joe
@Joe a room called "so not to spam up sopython"? Sounds intriguing :p
Ahh.. that was nice of @Joran to spend time with you :)
21:40
cbg
cbg @Adam
So today is the day of overreactions at my work
@Adam "going postal" style or,,, ?
DSM
DSM
NOOOOO!! Have you submitted your letter of resignation?!
One of our employees managed to download some ransomware last week that took out their system. Not surprisingly, this employee also hadn't been backing up their documents the way they ought to have, so we lost a bunch of old purchase orders and etc
Said employee thinks he got it in an email attachments so now all email attachments company wide are disabled regardless of content or source.
21:43
@AdamSmith permanently or temporarily?
"Until further notice."
DSM
DSM
Wow.
Where do you work, @AdamSmith?
@CodyPiersall local retail chain in Oregon. We've got about 50 sites
Gotchya. Well, that's going to be pretty annoying until further notice.
21:47
Our lead network engineer is working on some convoluted backup system that'll run daily and fling about 200GB of documents around server to server
Our backup system now is essentially a mapped drive to a network share that functions as our user folder, assigned through AD
but I guess this particular bit of ransomware grabs documents on every drive mapped to the machine at execution and encrypts it
so he's trying to make something work more subtly
(made me chuckle anyway)
user559633
@AshwiniChaudhary merged in your very helpful pull req on easyos. sorry it took so long -- it's been a crazy month.
@AdamSmith Congrats. :-)
22:03
Umm... should this really have been deleted? It'll work as a potential dupe target...
(or at least has enough info. in it to turn up in searches and potentially not be asked again, etc...)
Melon @MartijnPieters
gratz @AdamSmith
Can Mortarboard badge been obtained more than once ?
@levi sure -- like any badge
@AdamSmith it's earned once :)
@JonClements hmm alright then! :)
22:14
You get a silver Epic for Earned 200 daily reputation 50 times and a gold Legendary for Earned 200 daily reputation 150 times
user559633
And a Tayto Mediocre for Earned 10 daily reputation 5 times
@AdamSmith anyway - all the badge info is on: stackoverflow.com/help/badges
Some of their definitions confuse me. Specifically gold badges.
Earned at least 1000 total score for at least 200 non-community wiki answers in the python tag. These users can single-handedly mark python questions as duplicates.
Nearly all of my 9k+ score is in Python answers, of which I have ~500
I know it's not 200 answers each scoring 1000+ :)
Well, you have a netscore of 639 for 536 answers
Is score points?
err rather
is score votes_up - votes_down?
Rather than reputation
22:21
@tristan Thanks for merging the PR. :-)
wait whats a netscore?
@JoranBeasley how many internets you've won.
DSM
DSM
Martijn wins all the internets
22:37
is it just votes_up - votes_down?
2755 - 150
weak sauce
more than respectable!
I bet all those 150 points are my smart ass answers to copy/paste homework
at least Im gonna assume so :P
divided by 1700 answers is not a great average :P
better than your average bear? (to paraphrase Yogi?!)
22:41
lol :P
how do you see upvotes vs downvotes?
user559633
on questions or daily?
Click on the number of votes and it expands.
22:58
bah - bit late to the table, but shows some itertool stuff here - not sure the OP will get it, but I think it's understandable enough - any comments?
DSM
DSM
Works for me. The trickiest bit of takewhile is understanding that you're losing an element..
@DSM yeah... easy to get around though
DSM
DSM
That's not really getting around it, though, it's writing a different function..
Aw, man, I was writing a comment but Daniel Roseman beat me to it whlie I was reading old Jon code!
DSM
DSM
:P
23:12
I also don't see your name down for: sopython.com/wiki/sopython_T-shirts !!!
DSM
DSM
Ehh, I'll need to see a design first.. my style is pretty minimalist..
Okay, time to hit the road. Rhubarb for all!
23:50
@thefourtheye Tanveer Alam has a link to your user profile in his about page :)
Hey ugys
*guys
Could someone check out my post on Dijkstra's algorithm?
I need help optimizing
:O
Thanks
Paul's right - it should be on code review
and if it's on both sites - that's a little unfair, you should probably delete it from SO
Also - just show a little bit of patience - it's gotten an upvote and attention on CR... and it's only 2 hours old :)
@JonClements that was really very nice of him @JoranBeasley . I really thank and appreciate his effort.
Pleased to hear that - he's a good guy :)

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