« first day (54 days earlier)      last day (58 days later) » 

9:00 PM
heya
and yeah, as @rlemon said, I'd like to bring up the topic of "how to add ROs"
 
Alright, are we ready to begin?
 
I'm here, but I'm working so if I'm not talking... well I'm working.
 
^ same, but fapping
 
I'll be watching elementary... so half there too
 
What's with all the half-assed responses? :|
 
My job mostly :P
 
I wasn't there last time, so it's better :P
@rlemon @BenjaminGruenbaum @Loktar @phenomnomnominal you guys there?
 
Lemon is driving home from work
 
crap im here
but at work
 
9:04 PM
alright
let's just get started
 
Okay
Welcome maggots.
 
Welcome botfly!
 
maggot yourself
 
The first topic is help vamp status, but since it was @Jhawins' topic, and he isn't here just yet, we'll save that to later
 
5 mins ago, by Sterling Archer
I'm here, but I'm working so if I'm not talking... well I'm working.
me
 
9:06 PM
tss
americans
@KendallFrey I'd say you're more like mosho
 
@FlorianMargaine nop... shit. yes.
 
Fuck yo timezone
 
Ok let's do this quick before my boss makes us meet
 
9:07 PM
I can sense a friday EOB meeting
 
@SterlingArcher quickie? ok, get your pants down
 
Our first topic for today is What is our policy for kicking people out of the room?
From this point on please remain on-topic.
3 messages moved to bin
 
do we really need a policy?
 
Kicking people should no longer be announced. It introduces a stigma.
 
I mean, I haven't heard any complaint
 
9:08 PM
My message was legit. Spam is a reason to kick
 
I'm going to make a bookmark out of this convo.
 
I disagree with Ben
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Agreed
 
When you kick someone - (and it's not spam etc) please go on a private room with them and explain why.
 
And it should be done more often
That's what Shog said somewhere
 
9:08 PM
Yes, much more often.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum no way
 
It shouldn't be a rule to announce, but do it anyway
 
I agree on the basis that it singles out the kicker for Main abuse
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum isn't there a kick reason?
 
I don't think singling out people for their bad behavior does anything but drives them to more bad behavior.
 
9:09 PM
Retaliation votes, zigi'isms, etc
 
@KendallFrey No.
 
Instead of putting someone in that position a 1 minute kick can make them reassess the position - like a downvote.
 
Keep it clean please.
 
It can remain anonymous, you can (and do feel encouraged to) go to a room with them and explain why - but please don't go announcing it. It accomplishes nothing and just puts a stigma on them.
 
fair point
 
9:10 PM
And a stigma upon yourself
 
I tend to agree.
 
I don't really care
 
It's nice to know who kicked someone though
 
it was more so that other people don't kick him at the same time that I did that
 
I suppose asking is a way to find out
 
9:11 PM
@FlorianMargaine you can't - if someone kicks someone else they can't be kicked until they speak again.
 
because several kicks in a row include mods, and we want to avoid that
 
I agree coordination is a problem and we should open a meta issue asking for that (owners get notified of who kicked who) but it should not be announced in public.
 
fair enough
 
Why do we want to avoid mods?
 
@FlorianMargaine usually when several kicks are needed I do not want to avoid mods - I'd much rather them come and deal with it rather than me having to deal with it.
 
9:12 PM
Well said Benji
 
@JanDvorak they're busy
@BenjaminGruenbaum I meant with coordination issues
 
@FlorianMargaine It's not your problem though
 
@FlorianMargaine ok - can we agree to open a meta issue?
 
It's kind of a moderator's job to... you know... moderate.
 
I don't go to the chat to manage the room or deal with discipline - I go to the chat to be part of our community and to discuss coding.
 
9:12 PM
so the guy deserved one kick, and got 3 because the others didn't know
@BenjaminGruenbaum yep
1 min ago, by Florian Margaine
fair enough
 
@FlorianMargaine Again, you can't kick someone who was kicked and never spoke again/
 
1 min ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@FlorianMargaine you can't - if someone kicks someone else they can't be kicked until they speak again.
 
@FlorianMargaine again, if someone else tries to kick them they get notified.
 
@SecondRikudo what if someone is kicked, says something else, another RO gets there, sees the messages, kicks him again
timing can be a bitch
 
@FlorianMargaine That is true, but that sounds like an edge case.
And also, you'd usually wipe the offending messages after the kick
 
9:14 PM
I wouldn't worry about late kicks
 
murphy's law. Anyway, I agree with Benji's suggestion to bring this up on meta. Let's move on.
 
"Never get punished twice for the same crime"
 
Alright then, let's conclude.
 
Alright, can we agree that: Announcing kicks is no longer mandatory and should probably be discouraged - opening a room with the user is not obligatory but is nice, a meta issue should be opened about prompting other room owners but not general users about kicks.
2
 
ROs should be notified, meta that. Next issue?
 
9:14 PM
?
 
Agreed.
 
Yeah, I think we have a pretty good consensus. We can move on.
 
Great.
 
+1
 
9:15 PM
Let's move on to the next topic
Our next topic: Criticizing and/or contradicting each other on main
 
yeah that's an issue
 
I need some details on this one
 
I didn't see that on the topic list - would anyone mind explaining that?
 
Constructive or nah?
 
if I don't agree with someone's behavior, should I call him out publicly?
 
9:16 PM
Yes
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I added it to the topic list based on your comment
 
Up to you
 
@FlorianMargaine if you don't agree with my behavior please call me out publicly.
 
Benji has done it to me several times and I respected it because he wasn't a dick about it
And I changed
 
You have done so several times and the feedback has been great.
 
9:16 PM
I don't think that we should contradict each other as room owners on main
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum not everybody is like you tho
 
There should be some level of professionalism between us.
 
Why not?
Nobody should fight on Main, but
 
Generally, it's probably better to call eachother out on things that are not "professional" (i.e. coding mistakes) in private rooms - just open a room with the user and send them a message.
 
Because when I'm dealing with an offending user, I expect other ROs to have my back
 
9:17 PM
yeah, that
 
And if I'm doing wrong, not say it in front of the offending user because that gives him legitimization.
 
We always have your back - as long as you don't make any actual JS mistakes.
 
there are times where I want to discuss a decision
 
@SecondRikudo If someone disagrees with you, they should not be silenced
 
I don't mind that another RO invites me to a different room or the ES room to tell me in (relative) private that I'm doing it wrong.
@copy Not silenced, never.
 
9:18 PM
If you're doing something wrong on a coding level I'm still calling you out. If it's an etiquette issue I'm coming to you first.
 
@SecondRikudo Why are we expecting loyalty on main? This is chat.
 
But not in front of the user I'm handling.
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's not the topic of this discussion.
 
@SecondRikudo that dun't work so well, true
 
I think this is the kind of cases the ML is for
 
We're talking about our moderation power as room owners.
 
9:19 PM
@SecondRikudo I'd love some context
Ah, yeah
 
@SecondRikudo We need clarification on what the topic is
 
If we're talking about moderation power as room owners criticize in private.
 
where is the "private"?
 
new room
 
9:19 PM
So contradicting each other in terms of dealing with moderation problems, problem users, the prime example is the old ZiGi case/.
 
@KendallFrey it's public
 
private room, can still be found if people are looking for it, if that's not private enough you can always use email.
 
Where some of us wanted to kick/ban/mute/whatever him, and some wanted to keep him
 
like debating Jhawins' ownership?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'd like some room owners specific thing
 
9:20 PM
And it ended up being a messy argument in the middle of main.
 
If criticizm is not helping bring it up in the monthly meeting - that's part of why we have those.
 
@FlorianMargaine still, not broadcasted
 
which is why I like the mailing list
 
yeah I definitely agree.
 
9:20 PM
it was made for this...
 
A mailing list didn't work, we tried that already.
 
just makes us look bad otherwise and unwelcoming.
 
@FlorianMargaine Yes, but it's too sluggish to work.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum we didn't really try...
 
Alright then, I think we have a good consensus here.
 
9:21 PM
no topic turned out in the 2 weeks we tried out the ML
 
My views: constructive criticism is always welcome. If you can't handle it because somebody disagrees, get off the topic
 
@FlorianMargaine exactly.
 
On programming topics, feel free to contradict others at any time if they're making a mistake that will mislead a help seeker.
 
@SterlingArcher we're talking about criticism about moderating the chat specifically.
 
I know
 
9:21 PM
On moderation and user handling topics, please use a separate room to criticize other room owners.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I mean that no worthy topic happened in the room during the ML was up
 
Agreed?
 
I would've liked it later, but it was already down
 
I agree.
 
No
 
9:22 PM
@FlorianMargaine exactly.
 
sounds fine
 
Only if it becomes a longer offtopic conversation
And that's a general case anyway
 
It always does though, never once a criticism of one RO on another RO's actions about handling a user ended with "Ah ok, didn't see it that way"
 
Moderators have a separate room to discuss moderation.
 
9:23 PM
in main you mean right @BenjaminGruenbaum?
 
We never criticize each other on actions in public
 
Well then, tbh, if you're too stubborn and you're wrong, you shouldn't be a RO
 
in private ones Ill concede all the time lol
 
Now moderators get a completely private room, which I don't think is necessary for us.
 
if you can discuss the situation and disagree civilized you're good
 
9:23 PM
@SterlingArcher It's not the problem.
 
@SecondRikudo it's not actions it's room moderation actions and it's not public it's specifically in the room.
 
The fact that you're dealing with a problem user, and I'm there contradicting you saying that the user is OK
 
@SterlingArcher I think the problem is conflicting signals.
 
Is confusing for everyone, me, you and the user, and isn't constructive.
 
9:24 PM
then get out of JS and discuss in ECMA or something
 
I'm just waiting for the day a problematic user will point out a room between 2 ROs to support his point of view...
 
If you think that my handling is wrong, ask me on a side room to step down, and let you handle it.
 
Yeah, that's all we're saying.
 
If you think you can do a better job.
 
Ok cool
 
9:24 PM
@copy can you agree with that?
 
@SecondRikudo Slightly off-topic: I think we should err on the side of too harsh. When in doubt, kick.
 
@SecondRikudo @copy hates drama and problematic users anyway, especially ones that are not good programmers - to him we're being stupid for not kicking them in the first place - I'm not sure he's not right :D
 
@KendallFrey I tend to agree. No harm will come to anyone if a user has a 1 minute break from chat by accident.
But where were you on the last topic? :)
 
I tend to be slow on kicking, but I can change
 
I wasn't thinking about kicking specifically, just mentioned it
 
9:26 PM
@SecondRikudo Probably not. If I tell you that I disagree with you, I wouldn't start a discussion anyway
 
I'll kick everybody idc :D
 
If two room owners disagree on whether to discipline or not, I tend toward yes
@SterlingArcher that raises mod flags you know
 
Unless there are fewer than 3 people in the room
 
@copy Again, the problem is not the discussion that may arise.
It's the fact that the user now gets legitimized by another room owner, so now I'm the bad guy.
 
new topic?
 
9:28 PM
Yes, I think we have a relatively high consensus on that
 
@KendallFrey yes and no; I haven't seen a solution.
4 mins ago, by Florian Margaine
I'm just waiting for the day a problematic user will point out a room between 2 ROs to support his point of view...
 
let's get a solution
 
On professional topics (programming) feel free to contradict right there and then. On moderation topics, please take it to a side room.
Let's move on.
 
I think we have a consensus - it's ok to criticize professionally - it's ok to criticize about RO but please do so in private and without undermining others, if you do it in public please at least be aware of the issue with that.
 
Current topic is: The Go monthly challenge. What went wrong? Why didn't as many people enter?
 
9:30 PM
<- has never done a monthly challenge
 
I personally haven't entered that particular challenge for two main reasons
 
Go or React/rxjs are boring
 
Because people don't really like the challenges - I do them because they're fun but after the first one where I actually pushed people all the time I kind of stopped and wanted people to just do that if they want.
 
@FlorianMargaine That
 
1. I didn't have as much time as I had last time
 
9:30 PM
I'm perfectly fine if 5 people do the challenge.
 
and 2. I hate Go with all my being.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, that
it's something we propose, it's ok if only 1 guy does it
 
The problem with monthly challenges for me is that my ideas are somehow much cooler to me
 
That's ok, no one is making you learn the key is to enable you to
 
if there was a golfing challenge, that might be something I'd go for
 
9:32 PM
They're not as popular as I'd like (the challenges) but it's fine.
 
@SecondRikudo I don't have a computer at home so I can't enter
 
My side projects fulfill the desire for me to code right now
 
TBH, I'd much rather if @FlorianMargaine's idea of picking a different OS project and fixing one bug each caught on than the monthly challenge.
I think it can bring the same level of "learning new things" while actually helping stuff get done
 
I'm motivated by it, but I don't feel like I want to do it right now. I have a side project I actually want to do.
 
I think we can move on to the next topic
 
9:36 PM
So no conclusions on this one?
 
I think the challenges in general take an uncomfortable level of commitment. Too much to just do for giggles, too little to be fulfilling.
I don't know how others feel though
 
To be fair - I think this month's challenge might be the last
But we'll see - depends on whether or not people will actually do it.
 
My schedule is so busy I'm not done with my weekday till 10:30pm. That gives me 1.5 hours to relax before I sleep. Weekends I'm always out doing stuff.
Those are my reasons. No hard feelings, I just don't have time.
 
I have little time, I'd rather spend it on erinome than challenges
 
Project Euler style permanent challenges would be cool
 
9:39 PM
Okay
Let's move on.
 
yeah
 
I'm afraid @Jhawins (who is practically the sole reason this whole meeting is arranged) bailed on us, so we'll have to discsuss his topic without him.
Current topic: Help vampire treatment status
 
We should kick them more.
 
Simple: if the person is a notorious vamp: stop helping and !!tell [user] google [keywords]
^ if persistent, kick
 
problem with jhawins is that he started helping one
 
9:41 PM
soft-ignore, kick when it becomes spammy
 
and other ROs told him to stop
 
I think that it's good to tell them to ask on main.
 
Not for some questions
 
9:42 PM
so they drop below the 20 rep limit, right?
 
Right :D
 
sooo evil ;-)
 
I can't in good conscious send a person's question to Main knowing it's a bad question
 
9:42 PM
I agree.
(Use stars more people!)
 
@SterlingArcher it can be a good question - they just have to work more on it.
 
Encourage to google is my main point here
if (!google) kick();
 
I think kicking people who asked something twice in 30 minutes is fine.
 
There a people that simply refuse to learn via Google
 
As much as I'd like to help out, I don't think that educating people on how to ask and how to google is something we can sanely do.
 
user4330208
9:43 PM
So this where all the peeps be at
 
Yeah, it's too much work.
 
@KendallFrey well then that's their fault
 
@KendallFrey Then I shouldn't be the one losing IQ over it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I judge based on annoyingness
 
@SecondRikudo if you aren't in the mood to "encourage" it's prolly best to not respond
I know I have those days
 
9:44 PM
Yeah, I do that too but it's objective
We should avoid being rude to them in general. Ignoring and kicking is fine.
 
@SterlingArcher I tend to not make decisions when I'm angry. I sometimes still make that mistake, but I tend not to.
 
I make snarky comments on main when I'm angry or annoyed
 
Meeting still going on?
 
But that's not the point. The point is I don't think that teaching someone how to ask and how to google is something we can do without losing what little sanity we have left.
@NickDugger Yes, we're on your topic
 
Oh, awesome
 
9:45 PM
It's that or deal with mountains of shitty questions which is worse
 
What do you guys think of that? ^
 
user4330208
@Benjamin should probably give them some leeway if they are new. Maybe if they ask 5 times in the first 30 min.
 
Who are you?
2
 
If we can't teach a man to fish, we're just giving them the fish and leaving them to starve
 
@SecondRikudo Offtopic: do it before using the bathroom bigthink.com/neurobonkers/… :P
 
user4330208
9:46 PM
A jS coder
 
user4330208
With lots of questions.
 
I think a modified welcome message, depending on something would help. I've noticed that new people do tend to read cap's welcome message
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum This room is open to non-owners, you know
 
@SecondRikudo are we done with the meeting?
 
@FlorianMargaine no?
 
9:47 PM
then pass the room in writers only and add us
 
@KendallFrey yes, non-owners are welcome - I'm just wondering what a non-regular I don't remember talking to is doing here. I didn't tell him to leave or something.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum he came yesterday or a couple days ago, he got kicked
 
What a shockingly good example
 
@FlorianMargaine I think that other users are free to join if they do so constructively.
 
@NickDugger oh yeah, a per-user-type message is an awesome idea.
 
9:47 PM
If someone is being a pain I'll kick.
 
@SecondRikudo k
 
@SterlingArcher Then there are the people that don't know what to do with the fish, and try to absorb it through their pores.
 
user1596138
in JavaScript, 18 secs ago, by Jhawins
Oh shit I'm sorry guys
 
@Jhawins you arrive just in time for your topic.
 
user4330208
Before we leave, I think the takeaway we can all agree upon is innocent until proven guilty. There are alot of intelligent programmers that just fail at google.
 
9:48 PM
TOO LATE WE'RE DONE NEXT TOPIC
 
@SecondRikudo not sure we're done with mine
 
We should definitely do that, giving people who are high-rep with a high A/Q ratio a different welcome message than people who are lower rep with a high Q/A ratio is probably a good idea.
 
@NickDugger It's the same topic XD
 
Ohhhh, lol
 
@carb0nshel1 it's not about innocence and guilt.
 
9:48 PM
@carb0nshel1 to be honest, I highly doubt that
It's laziness
Every good programmer knows how to google issues
 
user4330208
Maybe I should rephrase that as google fails them.
 
@SterlingArcher Nope, guy I work with insists on bing
 
user4330208
google fails me every day
 
We are not discussing whether or not someone's ability to google is a necessity.
 
Yes there are cases where some issues just don't yield good keywords, but 95% of the time the problems we get in the room are googleable
No, we're busy
 
9:50 PM
@carb0nshel1 sorry, but when we type exactly the same sentence you wrote us in google and the first result is your answer...
 
@carb0nshel1 helping newbies is not our number one priority as a room. We're the JS room not the "learn how to JS room" or the "JS newbies help room". We're usually trying to be helpful. As soon as it comes at the expense of the room's discussion level I'm against it.
 
user1596138
Ok here's my point (I have time right?): I feel that if a user is repetitively seeking help from the room but isn't getting any help and it is annoying the regulars (i.e. that opinion is voiced by multiple people or voiced and agreed with) that he should be removed.
 
agreed
 
@Jhawins we already agreed on that :D
 
@FlorianMargaine This isn't main
 
9:51 PM
He must be american
 
Hold on please, we're not done with this one
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I WAS EXPLAINING WHY I WAS LATE!
 
17 messages moved to bin
@rlemon No one cares, do it later.
 
I'm gonna say it again until more people agree with me...
5 mins ago, by Nick Dugger
I think a modified welcome message, depending on something would help. I've noticed that new people do tend to read cap's welcome message
 
@NickDugger are you gonna write it?
 
user1596138
9:52 PM
^ I second the motion
 
@FlorianMargaine I could try, sure
 
coz I know how it goes, this kind of shit isn't done in months or years, if done at all
 
> "Welcome to JS chat. If your question has an answer on Googles first page, you will be kicked."
 
This is the start of the discussion - for all you late people.
@NickDugger I agreed with you - I think it's a great idea - go makea pull request.
 
@SterlingArcher little aggressive
 
9:53 PM
^
 
user1596138
> Read this: rules.javascriptroom.com. Before asking inform yourself on the XY problem goo.gl/taIqf | Angular is on topic here stop asking. Don't ask to ask just ask.
 
user1596138
I feel that the room description should be used too
 
user1596138
This doesn't do much for us.
 
I'm an aggressive guy :D
 
nobody reads it
 
9:54 PM
Soften it up, but make it clear
 
user1596138
I think that the welcome message from caprica should more-or-less be the same as the room description.
 
If I can google the title of your question and get an answer easily, I will kick. Not sure how to make that sound nice but make sure the message is clear
 
@SecondRikudo should I find out how many "is angular on topic here?" messages are in the js room, even since the topic was set?
 
@Jhawins I think giving users with 20 rep and 5 questions with negative score the same welcome as a user with 20K rep and 800 answers and 2 questions doesn't make much sense. I completely agree with @NickDugger on this.
 
I won't, but I see it quite often
 
9:55 PM
I think we need to stop threatening to kick people. it makes us look like we power trip
2
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum That doesn't make sense to me. Rep isn't really that great a metric
 
@Jhawins It's the best we've got.
 
@rlemon As with before, just do it silently, and they'll get the message
 
And I think it's good enough for this case.
 
user1596138
@rlemon I think we need to make it clear that we always kick people for certain behaviors, and then stick to it.
 
9:56 PM
@KendallFrey I agree, and announcing it after the fact. I just don't think we need to threaten people
 
A user with 20 rep is likely to be less pr0 than one with 20k
 
@rlemon We agreed on that too, and to stop announcing it.
 
user1596138
It's not threatening it's more of a "If you ping users with no context asking your question you will be kicked immediately"
 
@rlemon I don't think announcing is fine - I argued that earlier.
42 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
Alright, can we agree that: Announcing kicks is no longer mandatory and should probably be discouraged - opening a room with the user is not obligatory but is nice, a meta issue should be opened about prompting other room owners but not general users about kicks.
 
It doesn't mean that it's necessarily true all the time, but it's true most of the time.
 
9:57 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum he means "let's stop acting like condescending bitches"
 
user1596138
I'm saying I think some "This is what fucking happens when you do this so don't be mad if you get kicked" disclaimer would be nice
 
@FlorianMargaine I agree.
 
I'm going to stop talking because carbonwhateverdude is annoying me
 
there is no other mechanism to know who was kicked and who did the kicking. until there is a SO mechanism to notify owners, I still think we should announce it
I disagree with being 100% silent
 
I've had a long day and I will most definitely say something mean lol
 
user1596138
9:58 PM
@rlemon That's offtopic right now :P
 
idgaf, I'm in the meeting and i'm talking about it :P
 
user1596138
I'm going to drop my opinion for reason of no response
 
@rlemon it creates a stigma, we also agreed to open a meta issue.
 
> I don't give a fact!
 
link me when you do please?
 
9:58 PM
I lol'd
 
6 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
This is the start of the discussion - for all you late people.
 
user1596138
But I still think we should say "We kick people who vamp spam here"
 
Let's get underailed, please
 
@rlemon ah, I don't mind telling you in particular.
 
I'm waiting for the meeting minutes. I'm not reading the entire transcript
 
9:59 PM
Back on topic please.
 
Yeah, we should move on with the next topic and discuss this next month if it's still an issue.
 
> "Welcome to JS chat. If your question has an answer on Googles first page, please rethink your life choice as a developer."
Is that less harsh?
 

« first day (54 days earlier)      last day (58 days later) »