« first day (2346 days earlier)      last day (1363 days later) » 

02:21
Hi everyone, is there a darkmode for the chatrooms?
02:38
I don't think, you can try dark reader extension
 
6 hours later…
09:00
@EnnMichael How's so?
@EnnMichael I understand your fears, but let me ask you this: do you want to use Rust at work? I'm almost certain you do. But to do that, you need loads of people, at different levels, who can convince their CTOs to start using Rust for a smaller project, or migrate existing things over, or implement the product in Rust to begin with when they start building a company. To get there, you need exposure, you need lots of people to use Rust. You need Rust to become mainstream.
I believe it is not necessarily popularity that ruins the language. I didn't do any research on this, nor I have wide viewing angle, but my hunch is, what ruined the above mentioned languages is a combination of 1. the lack of a strong vision against which people can match new ideas / directions, and 2. the urge to introduce new and shiny things while being unable to remove redundant or unnecessary features.
09:26
> … the urge to introduce new and shiny things while being unable to remove redundant or unnecessary features.
I agree with that.
Isn't Rust mainstream anyway?
I think it is already half-mainstream :sweat_smile:
It's mainstream.
I hate TIOBE and it is not accurate, but I will consider Rust to be mainstream once it made it to the first 20: tiobe.com/tiobe-index
09:42
@PeterVaro Not implying anything about the language's worth, but I'm somewhat surprised it's ranked below D. I thought it was much less popular?
@Jason That's one of the indications that TIOBE is not really that accurate..
Haha
On that note, I believe PYPL is more accurate: pypl.github.io/PYPL.html
Rust is definitely growing and it already reached the first 20, being at 16
Ah, there's still plenty of room to grow. I don't think the same holds true for some of the other languages on that list.
10:39
@Shepmaster So I see you still read Meta.
 
2 hours later…
12:10
@PeterVaro I thought I wanted to use it at work, but now I think I really don't
12:21
@EnnMichael Why ?
@DenysSéguret Because I'm afraid it would ruin my love for the language
That's a weird reason
Also, the more people use it at work, the more mainstream it gets and the more idiots you have asking for pointless features and lobbying
Just because features are asked for doesn't mean they'll be added. I think it'll be fine.
12:37
Maybe
I hope so
12:52
@E_net4thecurator Especially when it's in the hot sidebar
I have been doing so much Rust training this year
this week and next, two more weeks planned next month. Probably another week after that
And when not doing Rust training, I've been doing marathon pairing sessions (like... 1P-5P)
so haven't had much time to hang out on SO
I hope y'all are keeping the law <3
yeah, upvoting and opening all the things!
@Shepmaster Question: does it always end well? Did you see people that probably won't be able to efficiently write programs in Rust ?
@DenysSéguret I think that specific group number is low, but sure.
More usefully, I try to gauge how many people can be effective right after training vs some future point
13:39
Oh a revenge downvote !
@Stargateur How do you know it's revenge? :)
How dare you suggest there's a legitimate reason to downvote the Star ?
(or maybe he is the downvoter, so he would know)
@E_net4thecurator cause why downvote stackoverflow.com/questions/50251487/… ?
Some downvotes, sometimes, just look random. Maybe people don't pay attention, or are bored, or didn't understand, or are angry against the machine, or whatever. You can't know.
yes maybe
13:52
@Stargateur No sign of revenge there. What Denys said.
It doesn't make the question less credible anyway, you can shrug it off.
 
2 hours later…
15:50
hello, has anyone used lib.rs/crates/tiny-keccak before?
16:16
They write documentation for encryption but not to decrypt lol
16:29
how I am stupid, its a one way encryption algo
17:25
Yup, those seem to be cryptographic hash functions.
I asked about having it two ways if someone is interested: stackoverflow.com/questions/66677325/…
@AntoninGAVREL I'm afraid that the question is off-topic as currently phrased (requesting a library).
You can instead look over at the Cryptography category of crates.io for public crates.
If I'm not mistaken, a lot of people are into ring and rustls.
17:56
how could I rephrase it to not be off-topic?
I don't see ring and rustls in the very interesting link you shared
It's probably among the pile. Exact search works nonetheless. crates.io/crates/ring
I know that it can lead to opinion based answer but I don't think the question is uninteresting, as it is rather important to secure data when sending it over network
@AntoninGAVREL That might be tricky: encrypting and decrypting data may seem like a simple request, but the chosen algorithms and frameworks will affect the security guarantees and requirements.
may I close my own question? xD
@AntoninGAVREL That a question is interesting, legitimate, or useful, does not excuse it from proper topicality. See: stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic
17:59
ok I can
:>
should get a badge for this
off-topic self awareness ^^
where should I ask such question?
Well, here in chat. Or in other Rust venues, that we have in the Rust tag info section (see Getting Help).
docs.rs/rustls/0.18.1/rustls should I use it over docs.rs/tokio-rustls/0.20.0/tokio_rustls ? I want to secure the udp packets that I send
ok I tried users.rust-lang.org/t/… thanks
@AntoninGAVREL Well, I never used either one, but tokio-rustls seems to be specifically for TLS/SSL channels.
I dont really get if TLS is implemented on top of UDP or if it is a replacement
18:16
Best to read up on the fundamentals of TLS (Wikipedia maybe?). TLS expects a reliable transport layer underneath, which UDP does not provide off the bat.
 
1 hour later…
19:16
hardware media control that mute sound of all pc is the most stupid feature I ever see
first was firefox, then discord
how someone could have think it's a good feature
 
1 hour later…
20:22
has someone ever use ring crate? I don't know where to start since the lib does not comme with a "hello world" type
As I often wondered about the distribution of lengths of lines of code in several projects, I just made another silly little thing: github.com/Canop/locmess
@DenysSéguret nice! funny
(note that the reason nobody answers much on ring is that there aren't so many people playing deep enough with those toys and it's very hard to feel at ease commenting about security related libraries without a deep look)
just looking for a simple encrypt/decrypt file with aes256, should be provided as an example
How do you show histograms on terminal, I browse a bit your code
I would be interested to do the same to show the packets that are received by the client
@AntoninGAVREL The direct answer is that I use a library I made: termimad
20:30
lol, jamais mieux servi que par soi-meme ;)
But it's not that hard to make bars: the idea is here:github.com/Canop/termimad/blob/master/src/views/progress.rs#L3
(damn... French people really took over the room)
@AntoninGAVREL Making such histograms is really very easy, with or without termimad. Here's another example with other kinds of histograms: dystroy.org/rhit
21:00
French have a focus on quality, hence why French loves Rust!
Yeah, I don't usually tinker with cryptography libs.
But I currently am tinkering with a game controller via HID, and it's getting fun.
21:20
@AntoninGAVREL What is quality?
Damn, Ruby is such a shit language.
21:37
@E_net4thecurator sounds very fun! is your code public?
quality is everything that demonstrates the purity of the underlying asset, like the whiteness of a flag
@AntoninGAVREL So, in the context of Rust, what is quality? Where is the purity, and what is the underlying asset?
I assume the underlying asset would be the programming language, and the purity would be... the joy of using it, perhaps?
I'm only asking because the Rust language is actually garbage
% rhit access.log
Error: no log file found
@DenysSéguret Is this expected to work?
Oh, it was the 2021-03-14T00:00:01.272Z vultr newsyslog[80449]: logfile turned over line that OpenBSD's logrotate inserts
That's a pretty cool tool though
22:30
@EnnMichael I don't have time to "feed the troll" but I would be interested to have a deep analysis of what is a good language. I actually don't think that Rust is that good to be honest, but I think the Rust compiler is doing a terrific job so that when your program compiles you are rather guaranteed that long-term wise it will be working well. If you compare it with the the C++ error messages that give you the whole stack trace it is a no-match ;)
@AntoninGAVREL All of them are bad though
which one do you like
VBA?
Unfortunately, none
Not trolling
I hate all of them
Why would you go on a Rust channel to tell that you hate all languages, don't you have better things to do in your life? Like watching a good tv-show or playing a quality game at least ;)
its like if you show up to a Republican conference and you shit on Trump, you will upset people ;)
Anyways I like to discuss pros and cons of each language in a more meaningful way (Rust is garbage because..., I think C++ sucks since it... ) at least add a bit of explanation ;)
@AntoninGAVREL I've been here for a while, actually.
22:35
yes thats why Im puzzled why you would be there if you dont like the language
its like if I attend a horse riding camp and I prefer to swim, doesnt make sense
I want to explain to the Rust people why their language is garbo
I mean... I didn't even mention it until you triggered me
So, really, it's your fault
I would be delighted to hear why Rust is garbo
since I am starting to learn the language it would save me time if you could save me from making this mistake
Why are you learning Rust?
What motivated you to take up Rust?
I can explain why I think it's bad
So the reason why I am learning and what motives me is to have native performance (like C) along with the guarantee that the program would not allow code leading up to bugs to be compile
@AntoninGAVREL Great!
Why do you need native performance?
Need or want
22:58
the faster the better, especially when you provide a service to thousands of users
Are you sure?
well prove me otherwise
You can get N times faster by running your service on N machines. You don't need Rust to be fast.
its costly
and bad impact on environment
No. Your time is costly. k8s clusters are cheap.
@AntoninGAVREL Please.
23:00
if we want to take care of our planet its better to have programs that are efficient
That's a good point of view @AntoninGAVREL!
@Jason It's a terrible point of view.
the nice things is time is my own concern. And I don't think development with Rust is especially slow
@AntoninGAVREL You mention services. Means you probably write servers. Have you tried writing a complex server in Rust?
We're all free to have different views.
23:01
throwing plastic garbage in the ocean is also cheap, but I am not sure future generations will apreciate
I have no tried since I am currently trying
@AntoninGAVREL Yeah, but that one actually has a detrimental effect. Unlike adding a node to your cluster...
@AntoninGAVREL Well, it's certainly doable. But it is slower than using something brainless and garbage-collected.
Preferably something dynamic
its not cheap because you dont see it as a percentage, when you use inefficient programs you are actually increasing the cost of computing for your company by x%. At the end of the day you also see the bill, its a big incentive to go green
@AntoninGAVREL No. Hiring a good developer will cost me 5000 euros a month. Adding an extra node to my cluster costs 5$-20$ a month.
I cant really agree with you, I think its slower for people who are unexperienced, when you reach a certain threshold of experience in a language without garbage collection, using malloc and freeing memory is not that much a pain if you have your own library functions
An hour of that developers time is more costly than renting this node out for a month.
23:04
mmh here you make a very good point
@AntoninGAVREL In Rust, you never malloc and free
But that's besides the point.
I've written a somewhat-complex server in Rust. I'm going to have to maintain it for months to come. It was fun, and maybe it's going to still be fun in the future.
But if I was using a dynamic language, I could have probably done it in 3x less time. I would never go to production with a serious SaaS business idea and implement it in Rust again. It's stupid.
You know its because of this kind of thinking that we end up with brainless languages like extra layers to SQL which is already easy enough.
All of this being said, Rust has its place. I hate running command-line tools written in Python. I hate having to wait 3 seconds to get the output of --help.
And obviously, embedded.
23:07
you also have to think that the 5000 euros a month is costly, but it will work for years.
But almost none of us does these things for work...
whereas your node you will have it at the end of each month on your bill
I'm opposed to this. The reason why people write ORMs is because
1) It's fun
2) Idiots are lazy to learn SQL properly
But this doesn't have much to do with the things I've been saying so far
I think each language can have his own reason to be, and I agree that it maybe be costly timewise, but I think that after writing your own server you are now ripping the profit of your own knowledge
its an investment on yourself
@AntoninGAVREL Do the math. I work for a large software company. Having a +5$ on their monthly bill is nothing. They add nodes to the cluster like nothing. Delivering a product quickly, and being able to modify it quickly, is their primary concern. Because that's what their customers value
@AntoninGAVREL Sure! I did it for fun! But I'm saying that this is not a thing that I would ever do in production...
And, no, I don't hate Rust. But I'm certainly not enchanted by it, now that I have a solid grasp of the language.
It still is in my opinion the best language ever invented
23:16
Rust is like Democracy, its the best we got up to now ;)
And I fucking hate democracy.
you have to see the bright side of life youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
are the creators of Rust open to improvements to their language made by the community?
@AntoninGAVREL In general though, brainless languages are a good thing. The fucking dumber a language is, the better. C# is dumb as hell. Go is a dumb-ass language. Python is a language dumb as a brick, which is why kids in elementary have so little trouble learning it. I have enough complexity to fight with, I don't want my language working against me
Almost all of the mainstream languages are DUMB. Haskell is an amazing language. But it's not simple. It's not dumb. It's not mainstream. Rust is in a similar position, IMO
I understand what you mean but I think each kind of developer has its use. People coding in C#, Go and Python will be able to make wonderful programs, that use wrappers to call Rust, C or Assembly code. Rust is not dumb but its not that difficult to get, especially the compiler messages are extremely friendly
@AntoninGAVREL The compiler messages are not that friendly. They're miles ahead of C++, which is where I assume you're coming from and you seem to have been through the template hell
However, they are not as simple as say, Go or Python, because Go and Python do not have: ownership, borrowing, lifetimes, pinning, zero-cost async functions, move closures, blanket trait implementations, complex generic type constraints, etc.
On the surface, Rust is simple, and this seems to be the picture painted by the community. I certainly had this opinion in the past. "Oh, the core language is simple... the borrow checker is the hard part." But that's not the whole story. To be so low-level and so high-level at the same time, Rust needed to have one of the most expressive type systems ever. And it's certainly the most expressive and therefore complex type system that I know.
(I don't know Haskell - maybe Haskell takes this even further.)
And that type system is the tower of complexity hidden beneath this simple surface.
Rust is not a simple language, don't be fooled by its looks.
23:34
I never said that it is simple but it is quite high level compared to MIPS and x86
@EnnMichael ... I mean, there's even like, arrows pointing to where in one's code the problem is :)
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yeah, and sometimes, the arrows are pointing all over the place
In any event, I am rather interested by what "friendly" can mean for you. If Rust's are "not that friendly", what could even be worthy of such a term?
You don't get what I'm saying
23:37
It's unfortunate that I can't point to an example in this very moment
oh no need, I know that messages in Rust can be confusing
But I've had situations where there's an error, and then I have to figure out a whole chain of facts to pinpoint what I need to do to fix it.
My question is, what's friendly for you?
I agree that its not the best but its miles ahead of C++
This simply does not happen in Go or Python (MyPy) or C#. Those have really friendly error messages, which rarely leave the realm of type mismatches and missing interface implementations.
23:39
I think the team behind C++ really screw up hard because C++ has some very nice features (vectors, strings, among others) (that could also be implemented by a custom lib in C, but thats another story), and in Rust you can write your code and learn along the way if you come from C/C++
@EnnMichael There are confusing error messages in any language.
@AntoninGAVREL C++ has no team, it's a committe of crazed maniacs.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno
@FélixGagnon-Grenier what language do you write for work?
I feel like a @PeterVaro take would be useful to this discussion (both the error messages discussion, and the one before)
He's smarter than me
And I love hearing your opinions @PeterVaro
@EnnMichael Python, JavaScript, Typescript, PHP and the occasional c++ fix. SQL and GraphQL, if you count those.
Ooohh, I've been summoned!
@FélixGagnon-Grenier So you don't think that the most confusing Python and TypeScript error messages are simpler to fix than the most confusing Rust error messages?
23:46
Not really, no.
Huh.
Fair enough.
I mean... Rust error messages are easy to solve now (mostly) but it took a lot of adjustment
In other languages, I feel like I didn't really have this adjustment period
I mean, the difficulty with error messages is when they direct what we think we understand of them towards a wrong direction.
Maybe you're just better at Rust than I am :)
being misdirected (whether because I can't read or because there's some weird edge case bluffing the computer into thinking something wrong) has happened to me with any and every language I've tried, without exception.
I very much disagree with the above assertions of yours, @EnnMichael. I think Rust is simple and I believe the type-system is simple as well and I also believe that the biggest obstacle one has to face with is the borrow-checker at the beginning. Are there certain scenarios (i.e. complex types, including lifetimes) which are hard to think about? Certainly. But those are the edge cases and in day-to-day Rust they are hardly present.
I also disagree with the cost analysis on using higher-level languages for startups selling SaaS.
But that is just what I've seen over the years and my personal experience. I could go on about this for hours if needed, not sure what you're after really.
Where is this conversation going? What are we trying to prove or disprove?
23:55
I have written a server in Rust. It's a web API for converting files into a new format called AVIF. I believe that writing this server in Rust was not the most optimal decision.
I might be wrong, though, because whenever I write a lot of the same language for a period of time, I get bored of it.
But I feel like I could have written it faster had it been in a higher-level (possibly dynamic) language with no borrow checker and with garbage collection.
It really depends. Is this project going to be maintained by you only or will others be involved? Those who are involved if it's not only you, what background are they coming from? Does it look like something that needs to extended modified in the near future (i.e. there's room for new features)? Does it look like something that the company will use for a long period of time?
@EnnMichael I 100% agree with that. Fraction of the time actually!
> Is this project going to be maintained by you only or will others be involved
Most likely just me
> Does it look like something that needs to extended modified in the near future?
Yes
> Does it look like something that the company will use for a long period of time?
Not sure, but possibly
@EnnMichael (You can only have a single block-level element in the chat markdown)
@PeterVaro Well, I can have multiple.
Everyone else must simply use their imagination
Imaginary Mark Down. Catchy ;)

« first day (2346 days earlier)      last day (1363 days later) »