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08:46
@EnnMichael That would've been heavy and expensive. ;)
Ey folks, Getting started with Rust at the Stack Overflow blog. The chatroom is mentioned.
4
09:01
@E_net4thecurator Grr.. shouldn't a link be provided for this chatroom?
I mean, the vast majority of people don't even know the chat feature exists on SO, let alone be able to find out room..
09:30
@E_net4thecurator No link. It looks like the minimum they could do. I mean, on SO blog they could not totally ignore their own chat
(it's possible they didn't want to flood us)
Folks, what do you mean? The link is there, in the Communities section.
@E_net4thecurator You're right. I don't know how to read.
It's a lot of text all right.
10:01
It is now, it wasn't before.
there's a spy among us
(seriously, it seems more and more inconvenant, facing such docs, to not have a link to the revision control system with ability to do PR and see the history)
 
3 hours later…
13:17
@PeterVaro Apparently in South Africa they were called "stiffies"; this word has another meaning in the UK
13:48
@OmarL No way! D'you know the etymology of this expression by any chance?
@PeterVaro I imagine it's because they're made from more rigid plastic than the 5¼" and 8" counterparts
 
1 hour later…
15:07
A new profile picture unsafe { @E_net4thecurator }
I asked a question on twitter on rust vs zig: twitter.com/DenysSeguret/status/1371840545534906377
If you have answers, they'd be welcome (not necessarily on twitter, it's not about being viral, I'm just curious)
Because I've read (fast) many things about why zig is cool and simpler but nobody seems to explain why or where rust would be better than zig
15:22
Isn't Zig is 100% unsafe by default?
If that's the case, Rust is much more easily statically verified, since verification tools (like Prusti) can rely on the type system, whereas in C/C++/Zig verification tools have the added burden of needing to prove that the program is memory safe and type safe.
15:37
In fact the answer may be at least partly there: ziglang.org/documentation/0.5.0/#Lifetime-and-Ownership
nothing for ownership ?
Zig is the same old thing we had before, but with Rusty syntax
At least this is my own experience after playing with it for a few hours a couple of months ago
It is nice, much nicer than writing C or C++ but I would never replace Rust with Zig
Not entirely sure what's the hype around it, TBF, other than, it is obviously easier to learn than Rust, because you don't have to fight with the borrow-checker during the early days of learning it
What I don't understand is why all the threads which mention zig on the net are just one sided
One sided?
I mean they're full of people saying how zig is fantastic and why they left rust, but nothing about the reasons to use rust
I think of Zig as a better C; it's _much_ simpler than C++ or Rust, yet at the same time it improves upon C with:
- Compile-time execution.
- Generics, powered by compile-time execution.
- Defer.
- No default memory allocator -- especially nice in embedded.
- And now they're building async, though I'm still not quite clear on how it works, and the implications on portability.
It even has a tiny advantage over Rust => pointer casts check alignment.
15:57
Yup, Zig's story on allocators in general seems more appealing than Rust's (story on allocators).
@E_net4thecurator allocators? does this mean heap allocators, like C's malloc, C++'s new, etc?
16:13
@MatthieuM. My biggest problem with Zig, is that it competes with Rust without any real / unique advantage. We have enough problems as it is, of all the dinosaurs unwilling to port things to / switch over to Rust, now we have a contender (well, a few, e.g. v-lang) which IMO divides the community and thus weakens the case to move the world to the next century.
I'm as happy for competitions as the next person, especially because monopoly is not good.. But this kind of "splitting our forces into small fractions" reminds of the unholy situation we have with GNU/Linux distributions.
@E_net4thecurator It depends really. Carrying a pointer to an allocator in every struct is not free, either. This doubles the size of Box, for example, increase String size by 25%, etc... If you're making a web-browser, that GlobalAllocator is more appealing... YMMV.
@PeterVaro I'm not sure if Zig really competes with Rust; I think the people who like the simplicity of Zig were unlikely to readily use Rust to start with. Going from C to Zig is already a huge step forward -- it has far less undefined behavior on stupid technicalities if memory serves.
Although the reasoning resonates a little. I can imagine some people giving up on Rust due to its strict aliasing rules and finding something to appreciate in Zig.
@MatthieuM. You know this as much as I do: Rust is not complex nor hard to learn, the language itself is stupid small and simple, which is its advantage. Just because one has to acquire a specific mindset to think about ownership and lifetimes which potentially makes the learning curve steep, doesn't mean we shouldn't push people towards it, instead of a half-baked solution.
If there would be a language, that could do the same as Rust, but without ownership and lifetimes, I would be one of the first ones to abandon the ship..
(Not because I found it hard to learn all these back when I started with Rust, but because that would remove an unnecessary burden from the new comers, therefore it would make adaption faster and easier)
*half-baked -> half-way
16:37
@PeterVaro I hear you. But I prefer to look at the half-full glass -- those people flocking to Zig are still "moving up" at least, in contrast to those sticking to C and C++. I prefer focusing my efforts on the latter.
 
1 hour later…
17:57
I believe I just created the most disgusting javascript promise workaround I've ever seen.
in the webview context, the only way to talk with rust side (that I know so far) is to call a invoke function that sometimes exists on window global object. that invoke however, has no return value.
hence, wanting to use graphql makes for a problem: how am I to get the result of my graph queries without return value?
by waiting in a while true loop until rust executes js code elsewhere and tells the infinite loop to stop!
18:58
If you wanted to hide repeated details of an assertion (macro) while writing tests, would you prefer to do this in a fn or a declarative macro, i.e. float_cmp_rel vs. float_cmp_rel!? I've seen both, but wonder what's more idiomatic? I assume I'm overestimating the performance hit of macro expansion here.
19:39
I'm a soyboy and Rust is too hard for me
@PeterVaro The word "community" makes me want to puke
The people who "left" Rust to do Zig did the right thing and I'm glad they are no longer part of the Rust "community"
I used to want Rust to become mainstream like C or C++; I don't want that anymore.
We have a good language, for the first time in this century, and so who cares if corporations adopt it? So many independent and open source developers have already adopted it
AFAIC the longer the mainstream stays out of Rust, the better
Every mainstream language is crap
This is incredibly telling
I don't want Rust to go mainstream
 
2 hours later…
21:47
@Stargateur what logics are you talking about? regex is perfectly fine to use to match identifiers and similar things in parser combinators. Even parser combinators in Scala work with regex seamlessly. — jbx 1 hour ago
<insert here something> use it so that good
Upon reading that thread and the macro, ignore my last question.
@Stargateur [a-z][a-zA-Z0-9_\-\.]* isn't difficult to match on. The nom crate is capable of doing that, no?
@Jason there is literally no reason to use regex if you need to use nom, I don't even understand with there is regex in it
@Stargateur Me neither, but perhaps expand on why they should not do so and point them at which functionality of nom they should look into?
I'm not that familiar with the crate.
21:59
@Jason after that answer to my comment I know I will loose my time
Ah, ok
@Stargateur It's instantiating a new regular expression upon each call to name(...) right?
I recall the regex crate specifically mentioning to not repeatedly do so.

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