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6:43 AM
@JohnKugelman There's a reason for that: the chat use the names for the pings and SO doesn't use unique names. So it needs a way to decide what JohnKugelman to ping... it must be one who recently visited
 
 
3 hours later…
9:30 AM
Are others joining www.adventofcode.com?
I'm mostly using it to play around with nightly features :-)
 
MAYBE
but I'm already short on time
I want to finish my parsing combinator project
at least release it
 
9:50 AM
@Stargateur Yeah :-(
Best of luck!
 
 
3 hours later…
12:41 PM
@Jason I'm not exactly a huge fan of AoC, so no, I won't.
@JohnKugelman We're in the process of making the decision, I'm very much the strongest proponent -- we have already spent the last 3 months writing prototypes of our kernel. But there's only 3 of us at the moment who speak Rust fluently. So my solution to this problem was to propose "Language Lessons", where we will teach languages we use in the company (of which there are already 4) or plan to use (i.e. Rust).
Just this week alone we already had 2 sessions on putting the syllabus together for next year. It will loosely follow the book, split into 3 levels (beginner, intermediate, advanced), each will be 8 week long, and on each week we'll spend 2 hours on sessions and 1 hour Q&A / workshop.
I don't think there's anything better to do at the moment -- but if you have any other suggestions, I'm absolutely open for it. But until the Rust would be widely adopted (i.e. larger pool of candidates, more people speak it in the existing team, etc.) there's no other way to make this happen but to actually teach it and practice it with the team.
(In case you're lucky enough to work at a company which is happy to spend (3*team size) engineering hours a week to level-up / invest into the education of engineers)
 
@DenysSéguret fun fact I have a new coworker that I manage, he write thing in rust for me and rely on me for technical question, work great so far
 
12:57 PM
@JohnKugelman I was under the same impression for the time being, but I don't think that's the case anymore. There is a reason why Rust appeals to certain type of engineers, but since we wish it to be wide-spread we are eventually going to bring the other kind of engineers on board. And that is already happening. There's no language that can prevent people of writing bad code.
 
And recall that Python is the number one “coming to Rust” language
 
@Shepmaster This is where Lily's talk from this year's conference comes into play. Would we be happy to see people using Rust that way? (And when I say we, I actually split between the two groups: the entire Rust community vs. the internal engineers of a company who use Rust. I believe the answer is 'no' to the first, and definitely 'yes' for the latter.)
@Shepmaster That's not really a surprise there, is it? I mean, Python became the most popular language a year or two ago. (For better or worse, if I might add..) So it is not a surprise that more and more people will say the same thing: 'I'm coming from Python'.
@Shepmaster I would argue that Pin is badly explained (almost everywhere in the community, std docs included) but not the hardest. I definitely found problems that are much harder to get your head around -- most of them are seemingly arbitrary limitations / constraints of the current implementation of Rust itself.
 
1:17 PM
@PeterVaro love to hear what
@PeterVaro yeah, it’s got numbers in its favor, but that’s somewhat orthogonal. The point is that most rust newcomers aren’t c or c++
 
@Shepmaster Ah, I see what you mean, that's correct!
 
I didn't find any C++ dev that jump into rust easy
they always say "where inheritance ?"
 
Me neither. C developers are happy to experiment, but as if C++ engineers are convinced they don't need a new tool
:upside_down_smile:
 
What were the developers who found Rust easy coming from ?
 
I can only speak from my experience: I came to Rust primarily from Python and C (and a bit of Haskell)
 
1:22 PM
And you found Rust easy ? From the start ?
 
to me, till this day, Rust is easy (for the most part, except for the above mentioned arbtirary limitations / constraints)
@DenysSéguret Almost all the way through, yes
I mean, the language is small, the compiler is talkative and very visual, the documentation is top notch, and the tooling is great
The only thing that makes Rust hard is the 3-dimensional type system
of which 1 dimension is only for the compiler and not helping the engineers themselves
 
The language isn't smaller than other ones (C++ excepted), is it ?
 
I found Rust hard to learn
but less hard than learn haskell
 
I found it hard to fight the borrow checker until it clicked
 
but rust async is more hard than learn haskell
 
1:25 PM
@DenysSéguret It is really, really small. Not Go small, but smaller than Python, smaller than Kotlin (or even Java), smaller than most of the widely used ones, I would argue.
 
yeah there is a lot of "clicked" moment in Rust learning process
 
(At least concepts / syntax / feature wise -- which is one of the many reasons I love it)
@DenysSéguret How long did it take for you to get through that phase? For me it was a few weeks only (2 or 3 weeks IIRC)
 
TBH I tried to learn Rust just as I did with the dozen previous languages: just with a side project on evenings when tired and curious. I found that Rust needs a little more involvement and concentration. So I was disturbed by the language being the first not easy one
 
@Stargateur That is separate subject, I didn't include that when I said the above.
@DenysSéguret "more involvement and concentration" -- that is genuinely true.
 
@PeterVaro This is hard to discuss without agreeing on the language's scope, which is probably a task neither of us want to lose time with
 
1:32 PM
@PeterVaro yeah that why I separate it there is rust and rust async
 
@DenysSéguret I agree, but to understand better what I was trying to say is think of it this way: when a concept comes up, how many separate notations (syntax), rules (implementation details), special cases, and surrounding concepts and conventions you must learn in order to become proficient in the language?
(And when I say proficient, I mean someone after the "intermediate" level, not necessarily at the "advanced" one. I.e. more or less being able to read any kind of source code written in that language)
 
I refuse to read basic, pascal, cobol, or any other evil langauge like that
my eye can't handle it
 
Basic and Pascal are obsolete now, but "evil" ?
@PeterVaro I don't thing you can be proficient without knowing a lot about the usual traits in Rust. Especially as code doesn't make sense if you don't even know they're here. Knowing the syntax is just the beginning
 
But I would argue, that is not strictly the language itself
Getting one's head around all the functionality exposed and implemented in the std alone is a different story. But even on that note, compare our std to Python's
 
if it's a #[lang] item, it's "part of the language" :P
 
1:44 PM
Python's is proudly "batteries included" -- that means so many libraries being part of the standard that you would be amazed! (In case you're not familiar with the situation) And it is continuously growing!
@FrancisGagné :D
 
2:29 PM
@PeterVaro Not sure it's everything you are interested in, but I think that modern Rust wouldn't have both From and Into
 
I'm not sure I'm following.
 
because the orphan rules have changed since rust 1.0
 
(Have you followed Stargateur's original message back? The one I commented on)
 
nope — links like that stop working one you are in the transcripts it appears, and I didn't want to scroll blindly
 
Aaaahhh.. shame on SO chat..
give me a sec then
 
2:31 PM
it appears to be just on the previous day though
 
It was a few quiet days when we briefly talked about this
 
CORS is annoying when your api don't use cookie, useless fix for a bad design, cookie
 
 
1 hour later…
3:56 PM
2021 I still can't use self certificate for a perfectly valid use case github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/5450
 
4:07 PM
how it can be so hard to find a SIMPLE end to end tunnel encrypt
 
Trying to have a convenient API, with backwards compatibility, when users use various integer types...
pub fn compute_scrollbar<U1, U2>(
    scroll: U1,           // 0 for no scroll, positive if scrolled
    content_height: U1,   // number of lines of the content
    available_height: U2, // for an area it's usually its height
    top: U2,              // distance from the top of the screen
) -> Option<(U2, U2)>
where
    U1: Into<usize>, // the type in which you store your content length and content scroll
    U2: Into<usize> + TryFrom<usize>, // the drawing type (u16 for an area)
    <U2 as TryFrom<usize>>::Error: std::fmt::Debug,
 
how funny
0
Q: TLS error using reqwest "A CA certificate is being used as an end-entity certificate; CaUsedAsEndEntity" for self hosted local CA

MnemosyneMy app requires the use of reqwest which throws the error error sending request for url (https://testserver.com/data): error trying to connect: invalid certificate: CAUsedAsEndEntity I have a self hosted test CA, self signed. My environment is Ubuntu 18.04, openssl 1.1.1. How can I bypass this e...

what a timing
@DenysSéguret this look very complimented
 
"complimented" ?
 
4:24 PM
*complicated ?
COMPLIQUE
 
oh, yes, it is
This answer is soon to be obsolete: stackoverflow.com/a/39693977/263525
 
already obsolete into_boxed_slice have always drop the capasity
I don't see why this would become obsolete
I miss something
 
4:43 PM
You're not. I just confused it.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:47 PM
The playground rarely works today @Shepmaster
Almost always get errors like
> /playground/tools/entrypoint.sh: line 11: 8 Killed timeout --signal=KILL ${timeout} "$@"
 
6:26 PM
@DenysSéguret yeah I think it’s basically just overloaded. I’ll send you a screenshot of the metrics in a little bit
 
6:51 PM
I smell pyplot
why not just increase the soft timeout ?
cause here people just spam until one success
compilation should have a bigger timeout
infinite loop in rustc are rare
recently (since like 1-2 weeks) I try playground almost all my request soft timeout I just give up using playground ...
I know the playground is a luxury but I love luxury
 
I don't use the playground to test but to show off code, for example in SO
 
7:20 PM
If the playground is overloaded, letting more items build up in the queue (e.g. setting the timeout to 1min) will likely result in people clicking build again anyway
 
but long compile time is not user fault
 
so then they have to wait for whatever was blocking them and their previous attempt
 
and build buton should block to avoid spam
or allow one request by ip at any time
 
when I get paid to work on the playground, I'll happily consider some of those options
 
(I just send random idea)
@Shepmaster let me contact jeff besos
 
7:21 PM
I'm lobbying to get a larger instance
 
haha
count on my vote
 
but i've been told that no one can review that PR soon, maybe not even this year.
 
what a world
the rust fondation ?
 
for myself and friends, note that you can use play.integer32.com
which is on a smaller AWS instance
but so few people use it that it's usually more responsive
 
haha true
 
7:23 PM
@Stargateur not money. literally reviewing the PR to set up a playground in the infra tooling
changes to Ansible
 
7:55 PM
you made the playground? whoa. wow. thank you!
 
It's quite surprising that the Rust foundation or team wouldn't want to host it
 
8:13 PM
@DenysSéguret Surprising is one word, shameful is another one which I would prefer to describe this.
:D
 
@Shepmaster haha integer32 is just so much faster
 
@DenysSéguret they already do
play.rust-lang.org is an AWS instance paid for by Rust
play.integer32.com is an AWS instance paid for by me
@JohnKugelman I made the current version of the playground. There was one before
It didn't have crates and the backend was written in Python
and one day rustfmt broke
and I like to format people's code on SO
 
haha
online tool for quick test or format are so usefull
even C have such tool
 
9:46 PM
BTW on the moderator resignation I was thinking, should we make a RFC to propose to elect core team ? I was thinking there is 3 major issue choice how many time we elect peoples, choice the vote method (probably the list of preference ?) and the more hard, how to not allow anybody/multi account to vote
what determine one to be a "Rust Citizen"
I was thinking of a list of possibility to vote, something like, have a "big enough" project on crates.io (aka project that other rust people use)
have make a rfc proposal and have been accepted
have a lot contribute to a rustc
etc...
but this would require a lot of work just to be possible, I guess we would use github as "auth" but anyway we need a system for people to votes, propose candidatures, check the requirement....
"choice how many time we elect peoples" => "choice for how many time people stay in the team" I was thinking at least 3 years matching rust edition so far
 
10:00 PM
I think first you'd have to define what the core team does :-)
 
true, current is very unclear. I guess elect other team, handle general mater, official communication, be leader of rust
 
10:41 PM
@Shepmaster I did not know that, in that case I regret saying the above and correct it to: it would be shameful it it wasn't already the case, but thankfully it is!
@Stargateur There was a good article on this a few days back, maybe it was only a tweet or a comment by someone under a HN thread, I cannot remember. But basically it was talking about the dark side of Rust and how all the politics and power games are working.
And related to that, the author mentioned how things should be much, much more transparent and democratic.
 
what I know for sure we can't continue like that
was perfect for early rust
but now rust is too big to accept this
 
What makes me worried is how all this miscommunication, needless drama, and opaque political fights paint a horrible picture of the Rust project (and to a certain extent the community) which not only weakens Rust's reputation but jeopardises the project's success at a point where it is on the brink of success but still very fragile.
 

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