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07:00 - 19:0019:00 - 00:00

7:07 AM
 
Already done
 
@DenysSéguret "roughly" ;)
 
sir, yes, sir!
 
"deleted 2685 characters in body" (!!!!!) only be removing trailing whitespaces
 
There are other uses cases for println!("{:?}", thing). I sometimes use it for non debug purposes when I want to print some the "
 
7:15 AM
defuq
 
that's a lot of spaces
 
@PeterVaro I'm proud of you 🥰
 
This would roughly be the amount of spaces if the code was right completed to 80 columns
 
;)
@hellow totally worth it!
 
stackoverflow.com/a/57066700/1021920 The only thing you could have done better is marking the output as none
@DenysSéguret makes sense. I delete once sentence which could be the remainder
 
7:17 AM
> marking the output as none?
 
```none
my text output
```
so it won't be highlighted as rust code
 
interesting.. I thought if I not specify anything that would have the same effect..
before I used text
anyway, let me add that
 
if you specify nothing it will use the highlighter of the tag you provided (don't know which one if you provide multiple). e.g. rust. But I'd like to write ```rust explicitly
 
which is exactly what I did in the previous block
(some habit I got used to from GitHub)
anyway, I added the none, thanks for noticing!
 
7:53 AM
Juste a small style question: how do you explicitely drop your stuff? I know that std::mem::drop(stuff) is a thing, but I actually like the expliciteness of let _ = stuff. What do you prefer and why?
 
You mean: do we use the scope for dropping or do we use mem::drop ?
 
@FrenchBoiethios drop(a)
it is even in the prelude, so why shouldn't I use it? ^^
 
That's a point, I didn't know that
 
Personally I've always use the scope, which looks like the natural solution
 
7:58 AM
I feel it like that. I naturally use the scope as well, without even thinking about it.
 
@hellow do you have an example where drop(a) would be better, maybe clearer ?
 
@DenysSéguret not really x) Scoping is generally better IMHO, but sometimes you need an explicit drop to satisfy the borrow checker? Not sure... :/
doc.rust-lang.org/std/mem/struct.ManuallyDrop.html could be a (bad) example of that
 
Oh, I should use ManyallyDrop in the code I'm writting. I didn't know that stuff, thanks.
 
Why should I use ManuallyDrop instead of an Option field with let _ = option.take()?
 
8:12 AM
@FrenchBoiethios Option is not 0-cost
> A wrapper to inhibit compiler from automatically calling T’s destructor.
> This wrapper is 0-cost.
Also:
> ManuallyDrop<T> is subject to the same layout optimizations as T
so you could use transmute if you want x)
 
@hellow Honestly, in the code I usually write, I totally take that cost.
But thanks. That could be a good Q&A :P
 
@FrenchBoiethios I think ManuallyDrop is needed, when you need a certain order of drops (e.g. for FFI), where one things must be dropped before another
 
@hellow Or you put each field into an option, and you take them in the right order.
 
hmmm... but Option has a semantic value for me, e.g. this could be ether None or Some
not that it is used for something special, e.g. drop order
 
Well, I guess that you're right. Maybe I'll rewrite my code with that.
 
8:18 AM
@FrenchBoiethios Can you outline, why you are needing that?
 
I didn't push the code right now, but it includes what I spoke about yesterday (a self referential struct)
I thus must drop the referencer before the referenced.
 
okay ;) I think that's exactly what's ManuallyDrop for
pub union MaybeUninit<T> {
    uninit: (),
    value: ManuallyDrop<T>,
}
x)
 
So clever
 
eVeN tHeY uSe It
 
I am fan of this API
I've another thing: a field is an Arc, and another field is a joinhandle that wait for an action to this arc. So I must do a thing with and drop the arc before joining the thread.
 
8:22 AM
manuallydrop ;)
 
Otherwise: deadlock
But there is nothing unsafe there
A deadlock is safe
I'll not add an unsafe unless I'm forced to
 
@FrenchBoiethios not really safe, but nothing the rust safeness guarantees you
 
The unsafe in Rust refers to the Rust rules, so I'm talking about the latter.
@hellow Very good explanation BTW. I hope that the troll won't continue to say sh*t
 
9:03 AM
- Query executes very slow?
- run an antivirus
0
Q: Query executes very slow?

Neha JainI have a table in which there are four column ID,MID,SID and Amt, I prepare the query for count the sum of amt using level. Like: SELECT Sum(amt) as level1 FROM adm where sid='MT00001'; SELECT Sum(amt) as level2 FROM adm where sid in (SELECT mid FROM adm where sid='MT00001'); SELECT Sum(amt)...

 
Lolo, why did I not think of that?
Maybe any issue can be solved by runing the appropriate antivirus
 
9:28 AM
 
People are used to use static variables all over the place... :/ I don't think that's good but on the same hand, if they try to do it in rust, the first thing they do is wrap that in unsafe and wonder if something goes wrong afterwards...
that's sad :(
 
yes
"usually I would use a static variable and assign value in an unsafe block."
 
Service Unavailable

HTTP Error 503. The service is unavailable.
SO IS DOWN!!!!!>!!!
 
@hellow no problem here
 
same
 
9:37 AM
after a refresh for me as well, but yeah ^^ hickups
 
Writing a static mut is instant UB, doesn't it?
 
haha no ofc not
 
What does exactly "instant UB" mean ? It leads to UB on accesses but not so dangerous per se I think
 
you talk about what code exactly ?
 
How do you have a global naked string without triggering UB?
 
9:47 AM
@FrenchBoiethios in a single threaded program, accessing global static muts is totaly fine
 
hi does anybody know any good site(s) to learn Rust?
 
without async interference ofc
@Mace that's the book to learn rust
 
@hellow In this situation, people use doc.rust-lang.org/std/macro.thread_local.html I guess
 
@FrenchBoiethios nah.. it is for another purpose, namely that every thread gets its own instance of a variable
 
thanks mate
 
9:50 AM
@hellow I know, but in a single threaded context, it can guarantee that even if multithreading is added, no unsafety will occur.
 
@FrenchBoiethios right
 
@FrenchBoiethios static mutable is not specially UB, stdout in err use them for exemple. accesing them concurrently is UB.
 
@Stargateur really UB?
 
@hellow well just read them should be ok but do a write and a read at the same time is UB
as stdout is buffered they must use a mutex to protect it.
 
@hellow Yes, like in C++. If there's no sync mechanism, the compiler assume that it can optimize it since it will not be accessed from several threads
 
10:37 AM
Is there a dup of how to assign to a mutable reference, e.g. *x = 3 instead of x = &mut 3?
Else I would alter the question (a lot) and answer it ^^
 
11:24 AM
I just spent 15 minutes learning how to use the image crate, only to answer a question...
(at least now I know how to process images in Rust ^^)
 
@DenysSéguret at least you learnt smoething :)
 
yeah, that was "SO doing your work for you" but I suspect OP wouldn't have found it anyway...
 
after my PC freeze 3 times while playing games I was wondering what the hell happen. So First check temp.... why the hell my fan are not running... look driver... try to set manually the speed... fail fail fail... well let look at the fan see if they turn at the start of the pc... wait why there is cable that block my fans... so only 1/3 fan of my gpu was running... now the question is since how many time --'
the worst is that windows/amd don't even show a warning about temperature
they don't even care about fan not running
hopefully my motherboard does
 
I've just bought a new computer for my wife because hers was heating as crazy, even surrounded with ice, when we were doing LAN games
> The suggested way by actix-web to treat files from multipart/form-data is to save them to fs
Really ???
(I don't want to learn actix just to answer this one)
 
@DenysSéguret noctua.at/fr/products/cpu-cooler-retail/nh-d15 and your CPU will never heat again
perfect to compile linux and rust
@DenysSéguret I just ignore all question about big framework
 
11:38 AM
@Stargateur Her computer was a portable. The new one too
(and I removed the fan in my personal tower because it was too noisy)
 
portable... gaming... portable... gaming... heresy
@DenysSéguret oh ? note that noctua one are very quiet cause they are big they don't need to run very fast
 
@Stargateur When I bought the parts of my tower, they were all the ones with the best notes regarding silence... but I might be both very sensible to noise and very incompetent in machine building
 
well quiet fan in cumputer doesn't mean they don't make noise. I'm so used to it I don't even hear it ^^
 
@Stargateur Install Linux, it prevents this kind of cable failure
 
@FrenchBoiethios I reinstall my vm yesterday ^^
 
11:46 AM
You install it in a VM ? :O That's why it blocked the fan, it was offended
 
by the way, fuck i3 and its no warning message if there is two config file and fuck their doc that doesn't mention .config/.i3/config and why why why have more than one use config file emplacement and why mix then and why did I lost 1 hour trying to understand why my config didn't work
 
@Stargateur what? ^^ you have multiple configs?
 
@hellow NO I HAVEN'T BUT LOOK LIKE IT HAVE BEEN AUTOMATIC GENERATED
 
man i3
> FILES
~/.i3/config (or ~/.config/i3/config)
When starting, i3 looks for configuration files in the following order:

1. ~/.config/i3/config (or $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/i3/config if set)

2. ~/.i3/config

3. /etc/xdg/i3/config (or $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS/i3/config if set)

4. /etc/i3/config

You can specify a custom path using the -c option.
rtfm x)
how dare you that you don't open up man nowadays
 
I did
but there was a lot of information
 
11:50 AM
Looks familiar... spent hours on this one :
 
also half of my config was working
 
ask next time ;P /me is i3 config expert
@Stargateur I can recommend github.com/greshake/i3status-rust
 
as also half of my config was working I didn't suspect it picked the wrong config file I suspected there was something worng with my file. WHY WHY there is no warning when there is two config user file !
then I started to blame azerty/qwerty
then I try to see if the vm was the problem
etc etc
 
oh right.. french keyboard layout x)
that's why I use the US layout.. pretty neat if you get used to it
 
@DenysSéguret exactly !
 
11:54 AM
(as my mysql config involved dynamic mounting of volumes on start it was especially painful to test)
 
guys rust is passe
Q# is the thing to write in now
 
Lol, the quantum programming is mostly a hoax
 
The hype doesn't work anymore
 
I might not have the necessary hardware for running Q# at the moment
 
12:02 PM
what hype
 
@FrenchBoiethios At some point it might become real
 
@DenysSéguret it runs on a simulator if you don't have the hardware
which is nice
 
@DenysSéguret "might". Wait and see.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That won't help me make my programs faster
 
@BartekBanachewicz see microsoft => close the window...
 
12:03 PM
@DenysSéguret no, but it will help you write them sooner
@Stargateur that's dumb as fuck
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nobody has the hardware. They struggle to have a machine with a fistful of qbits
 
Microsoft is making a lot of great stuff nowadays
 
The problem with quantum computing is we got so much vapors in the last 20 years we won't easily notice when there starts to be something real...
 
dismissing all of them just because of the logo is just silly
 
@BartekBanachewicz true
 
12:04 PM
@DenysSéguret yeah same thing happened with regular computers at first
 
"12/11/2017"
 
@BartekBanachewicz What ? no. I'm old you know, it didn't happen this way
 
@DenysSéguret I'm ready to bet a million that we will never see anything concrete (I mean a quantum computer that can solve actual problems)
 
@DenysSéguret that was in a different subthread
@FrenchBoiethios solving actual problems needs hardware and software
Q# might just be that second important part
Our rate of progress continues to accelerate, so assuming we'll be able to operate on real measured quantum qubits soon isn't that weird
 
@BartekBanachewicz Sure, but what's the point to create a software if the hardware cannot be build currently? I've read a lot of stuff about the hypotetical quantum computing, there are so many blocking things that a lot of scientists doubt that it can even be possible.
 
12:07 PM
Why ? I mean: there have been things to work on the software level in the past 20 years. Why this one ? Because of the MS logo and the fact they make a effort to make it known or did you really look at it ?
 
@FrenchBoiethios Because it will also tell us what hardware will we need
@DenysSéguret Oh, in this case I just semi-randomly found about that
the fact that it's made by MS and not a dweeb in a basement means that it's actually usable for one
 
(note that I didn't try it or even look more than a few seconds)
 
and don't require compiling your own gentoo kernel to run or whatever such linux dweebs do
also MS has got pretty much the best language designers on the planet now
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think that they already know that, they just cannot make the quantum "computers" stable enough. They need a lot of physical qbits for one logical one, to replicate the data, and they cannot put a lot of them side by side because of the tunnel effect.
 
if anyone is to make a reasonable quantum programming language, it's them
 
12:10 PM
The best machine today have a fistful of qbits, but they need billions of them
 
@FrenchBoiethios I am aware that making the hardware at this moment is problematic, yes.
 
@BartekBanachewicz xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
@Stargateur SPJ works in MS for one
 
I'm out of the loop. Who's SPJ ?
 
Simon Peyton-Jones
 
12:11 PM
(I'm out of the loop of the whole language designing stuff)
 
@DenysSéguret well then
I mean I didn't say that there are no competent language designers outside MS
 
oh haskell... I should have guessed
 
but it's not just Haskell coming from MS really
F#, F*
 
@BartekBanachewicz If you compare the languages they did with the other ones, that's true. C#, F#, Typescript, etc. are good. Google, OTOH, made some shity languages, like Go and Dart
 
it's the less popular stuff from them that's really great
@FrenchBoiethios yeah, my point exactly
JetBrains/Kotlin should get a honorable mention here as well
Apple just barely made Swift meh; they were on the right track and stopped half-way
 
12:13 PM
Google language designers are so bad that less than 5 years after the release, they want to create Go 2 and Dart 2...
@BartekBanachewicz Really? Why do you say that?
 
@FrenchBoiethios Bartosz Milewski made a few good points about that
stuff like optional handling
(which Rust does correctly BTW)
aaaaanyway I realize that language wars are sorta like OS wars
I just found out about Q# and found it interesting enough to share
no hard feelings about quantum computing (hardware) ;)
 
I find it interesing in abstracto, but I'm pretty sure that it won't be useful anytime soon.
 
Did you see Luka's question?
 
Like Haskell
/s
 
@FrenchBoiethios lel
Considering that nearly every request to Facebook's servers goes through a Haskell middle layer
 
12:17 PM
Really? Don't they do all with PHP?
 
Go isn't so bad. It fulfills a very big and needed niche better than most languages. Rust won't be usable by your common 0.1xEngineer before long
 
@DenysSéguret I don't think that it is bad, that's just that the designers didn't think enough before releasing it. It is as if they have a very limited languages culture.
 
I think the Go's flawed by design
 
Or that they wanted something directly usable to replace java in Google
 
12:19 PM
the execution isn't bad, but they picked a "wrong" (subjective) goal
which has a lot to do with how Google approaches software engineering in general
 
@DenysSéguret C++*
@BartekBanachewicz What do you mean by "optional handling"?
 
go is a old new language
 
@FrenchBoiethios that the hardcoded ? op only works on optional and not something like Result
which means that you can either have nice short code that can only produce None or have useful error information but no syntax to help you
 
@Stargateur kinda
I mean you could also say that Rust could go a step further and implement some form of do-notation
which allows you to not only "override" ?, but also the semicolon
 
12:25 PM
that would start to become complex for nothing
 
but programmable ? is good enough for a lot of cases, while Swift's fixed one just doesn't do it
 
semi colo is not an operator
 
@Stargateur do-notation is immensely useful, it's not nothing
@Stargateur that was an oversimplification
there's a lot of articles that show potential do-notation in Rust and from what I've read they all look kinda nice and practical
 
@Stargateur You can see it as an operator with the signature () -> () -> ()
 
@FrenchBoiethios if you introduce bindings then it becomes the signature of >>=
 
12:27 PM
Do you have a blog post that speaks about that?
 
so M a -> (a -> M b) -> M b, which in that special degenerate case is M () -> (() -> M ()) -> M ()
 
Isn't that a monade?
 
@FrenchBoiethios yuuup
@FrenchBoiethios I had this one in mind
 
@BartekBanachewicz *assuming monad laws...
 
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Stargateur that was an oversimplification
 
12:28 PM
@BartekBanachewicz This point is not sufficiently taken into account. The Rust's error handling is the best in all the languages I've seen (a few dozens, tho, so not a lot)
 
@FrenchBoiethios I agree that it's very good.
 
The ? was genius
I cry each time I must handle exceptions, now
 
I'm just pointing out that you can move this idea even further
 
genius ? No, the same idea was proposed before in other languages
 
@DenysSéguret yet implemented badly
 
12:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz not implemented, rather
 
or that, yeah
I mean from my (Haskell, unapologetically) PoV, it's all on a scale from "specific to one type" to "fully generic via monads"
 
@DenysSéguret The same idea of desugaring to a conditional return and a call to .into() ?
 
Option/Optional/Maybe 's ".get_value_or" is specific to one type
the next step is ? which works on both Result and Option
 
@DenysSéguret expect in functional language I don't know one. C++ started for 17 but ... well it's can be easily ignored
 
? in a lot of languages is just syntactic sugar for checking if null then return null
 
12:32 PM
There was the same problem in Go. I was the author of a proposal for a myvar, ^ = funWhichMayFail() at the beginning of Go , to propagate errors
 
@DenysSéguret huh
 
@BartekBanachewicz Thanks for the link. The try...catch notation is a good idea, BTW, but it can confuses a lot of people. I wouldn't use that terms.
 
The thing is the traits in Rust allow for cleaner error conversion
 
@DenysSéguret the whole go error handling is a failure
 
@FrenchBoiethios yeah however this is specified syntactically is less important imho to what possibilities it entails
 
12:34 PM
@Stargateur Still better than exceptions
 
@DenysSéguret Lol, I'd prefer myvar, ↩ = funWhichMayFail()
 
@DenysSéguret I hate exceptions !
 
myvar, 🍕 = funWhichMayFail()
 
It's not so bad. But the language was frozen too fast, it should have improved, there was potential (apart the nul...)
 
@BartekBanachewicz The difference here is that any return inside of Result::or_else cannot immediately result in an early return. I want this so bad...
 
12:35 PM
all this talk make me feel that Rust is love
 
The fact that no control-flow can be done from a closure is really ennoying sometimes
 
@FrenchBoiethios maybe away async can improve that
 
@Stargateur Not really, this has nothing to do with that AFAIK
 
async-away sounds like a great thing
 
@BartekBanachewicz When you don't care about the result ^^
 
12:38 PM
it's async but done on a remote pc :D
 
btw... the channel status is a mess. Will std::mpsc be removed ?
 
I hope so
Or deprecated at least
 
It should
 
The crossbeam's is way better
 
As a noob, like probably most noobs, I've chosen the std solution, reasoning that it was in std for a reason. But it's way too limited for no good reason
Think about the noobs!
 
12:40 PM
Yes, like why the receiver cannot be cloned?
 
like the missing select
 
Also
And the sender/receiver not being sync
 
well, the good thing is that rust allow you to use a crate instead of force to use std tool
also, I didn't know mpsc sucks thx ^^
 
@BartekBanachewicz Is it me, or the do notation can be done with a macro?
@Stargateur It doesn't really suck, but it has a lot of arbitrary limitations.
And it is slower than crossbeam's
 
@FrenchBoiethios always ? Is there a bench ?
 
12:44 PM
@DenysSéguret I'm saying that from the documentation: docs.rs/crossbeam/0.7.1/crossbeam/channel/index.html
> This crate is an alternative to std::sync::mpsc with more features and better performance.
 
@FrenchBoiethios possibly
 
A proc one, of course, unless we enter in a madness dimension
 
don't know if it's a correct one
specially bench are often not correct julia for exemple have a terrible bench
and claim "we are faster than X"
yeah but your bench sucks
 
Benchmarking channels doesn't seem trivial, you'd need a real study
 
It's very difficult to make a bench that doesn't suck
 
why suspicious ? Maybe not really relevant for real life lock situations but I can't estimate this
 
first the is no "why", secondly there is too much difference
why there is a shuffle function in a bin not used github.com/crossbeam-rs/crossbeam/blob/master/crossbeam-channel/… ?
there is a lot of commun code that are copy paste instead of sharing it to avoid mistake
 
1:09 PM
this is a nice number ;)
 
1:48 PM
hehehe
working emulator time
 
@набиячлэвэли sweet! I really enjoy writing emulators in software :3 Next step would be to do it in a FPGA ;)
 
@hellow well, the real next step is to wait for Pirate to get his ten-thousand-odd transistors and put the actual hardware together, but sure
 
Does someone understand Fragile? IIUW, it allows another thread to have the ownership of an non-send data, but without accessing it. Is that it?
 
> This library provides wrapper types that permit sending non Send types to other threads and use runtime checks to ensure safety.
so.... sounds like a {Ref,}Cell for Non-Send types?
 
> Once the value has been wrapped it can be sent to other threads but access to the value on those threads will fail.
 
1:54 PM
@FrenchBoiethios I think the doc really states what's going on
 
@hellow That's a mutex
 
> A Fragile<T> will actually send the T from thread to thread but will only permit the original thread to invoke the destructor. If the value gets dropped in a different thread, the destructor will panic.
 
I don't understand how it is util
 
@FrenchBoiethios yes and no. You need a Mutex to synchronise different threads accessing the same value
but IIRC Fragile allows only one thread to access it while not really owning it
> Most of the time trying to use this crate is going to indicate some code smell. But there are situations where this is useful. For instance you might have a bunch of non Send types but want to work with a Send error type. In that case the non sendable extra information can be contained within the error and in cases where the error did not cross a thread boundary yet extra information can be obtained.
sounds like a reason to me ^^
 
Ok, so the original thread still owns it, but one can access to the data from another thread, is that it?
 
1:58 PM
yes, IIUIC
and you can't drop it in the other thread, else panic
 
If the original thread owns it, I cannot drop it in the other thread, doesn't it?
Ok, IIUW, I must resend it into the previous thread to drop it correctly? How crazy...
I'll get out the big gun and make a wrapper unsafe impl Send
And be careful, obviously
 
@FrenchBoiethios 🤔
 
@hellow Do you really understand how to use Fragile without a ton of boilerplate?
 
2:13 PM
@FrenchBoiethios depends on what you wanna do, but no. Examples are lacking. Open an issue ;)
 
I want to make a Future<Output = Foo> with Foo being not send.
So a FooFuture is waiting in another thread that a calculation finishes, and when it is done, Foo is constructed and sent to the previous thread.
Not sure if I'm clear
Well, in all cases, Fragile cannot help me, I guess
 
 
2 hours later…
4:35 PM
I've answered two questions which are both really different and based on very similar codes. I suspect somebody's giving some Rust exercices... or maybe there's some very unclear new tutorial online
 
@Stargateur there was already an answer with this... — Denys Séguret 10 mins ago
I opened the question before XD
anyway I find duplicate
 
@Stargateur Oh, that's why
!!afk meeting
 
5:06 PM
well it was a fake but author of actix still want to take a break: github.com/actix/actix-web/pull/968#issuecomment-512094656
 
5:32 PM
What is the simplest way to make a non-send data send, when it is immutable?
 
5:50 PM
I don't want to share it, I don't want to mutate it
I know that a mutex can do the job, but it is too costly for that, since I don't want to mutate it
The data that I want to make Send is conceptually an Arc<T> with T: !Sync + !Send
 
Yet another PR for just a cargo fmt... What are people imagining ? That I can't run it myself ?
 
I don't have a problem with people discussing fmt. I just don't understand people poping from nowhere just to make those fmt PR
And I'm not using cargo fmt anymore. In my opinion it's interesting when you discover rust, or as a reference, or as a norm in a project with many contributors, but when I'm alone on my project it makes me just lose time
 
but what do you do when you want fmt some code ?
you do it at hand every time ?
 
My own code ? Yes, as I type
 
well, have a tool that do that is nice
I do not agree about it's only useful when you discover rust
try to find a configuration that suit your code style and put it in rustfmt.toml
if you want to avoid this kind of PR in the future
 
My "style" is basically the same than the default one... except that rustfmt is less good at picking the best splitting position which makes sense so one line every 20 is slightly different
 
6:41 PM
I have an idea for you
 
There should be a way to put a warning in GH for PR creation just like the one you put for issues (and that almost nobody reads)
 
I have better
haha wait
 
(btw I'm 100% for the concept of rust fmt, I like that all codes are familiar to read, it's just that the tool isn't very good right now)
I'm afraid
 
damm this REQUIRE NIGHTLY OMG
do you compile in nightly ? ^^
 
no
daily only
Ok... I've looked at the PR this guy makes... He does the same on other projects, he just makes a PR to fmt or to add the missing "dyn"... and that's all, he goes away...
There must be some badge, or maybe he wants to be in the logs of many projects...
 
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