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Q: Volunteer to help mentor one of 16 women starting a career in programming

LauraDiversity in tech has become an increasingly urgent issue, both on- and offline. We have always tried to make Stack Exchange an inclusive environment, but we know we can and should do more. One thing that we're excited about doing is participating in a new fellowship at the Flatiron School, an...

How can you prefer women, when gender is not an issue on SO? There is always the chance the pretty blonde damsel in an avatar is in reality a 50 yr overweight truck driver. (But him having an SO account is again a plus.)
Joe
Joe
@Jongware probably because starting out in tech as a female, you're going to face different challenges to what a male will face, and having someone help you through that who's been there is useful. It's a horrible truth, and it shouldn't be like that, but it is.
This question does not appear to be about Stack Overflow or the software that powers the Stack Exchange network, within the scope defined in the help center. Shouldn't you use a blog post for an annoucement like this instead of a meta.SO question?
@l4mpi There are perks of being an employee of the site.
Blog posts suck, @l4mpi. There are no proper responses and comments are a strict chronological list regardless of merit. A blog post is essentially a soapbox, a way for someone to stand up and preach with no particular interest in feedback; sometimes, that's appropriate, but I would take it as an indication of Laura's faith in the community here that she would post this here - where feedback is welcomed and even moderated responses can be vetted by trusted users - rather than on the blog. As for its relevance, the announcement concerns activities by SE the company in a SO-related area.
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If I had a bit more experience, a little more free time, and better internet for video calls, I would totally volunteer- But I've only been a programmer at all for a year... But this is an awesome idea!
@Kendra this is the first of hopefully many similar initiatives we'd like to take on, so stay tuned for more opportunities to get involved!
I think this is a fantastic idea, it's definitely something I'd take part in if I had more free time. I would have loved to have a mentor, when I started in programming.
user142914
but preference will be given to female mentors for this round That's sexist.
"preference will be given to female mentors for this round" I feel excluded in this "inclusive environment".
If men ever become an underrepresented and frequently poorly treated group in the programming community, don't worry - we'll work to create inclusive environments for them then.
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Great idea! My programming experience is almost exclusively SQL...are these mentorships for 'programming' across all languages, or is it limited to a certain set? I obviously can't mentor most programming languages, but if there was the niche fit..I'm more than willing. As a side note, my 7 person database team is 5 women and 2 men...changing workplace, 10 years ago I was with a team of 22 men and 1 woman.
@Bryan It has been demonstrated that when people see others like themselves in important positions, it reinforces the idea that their goals are valid and viable. So yes, gender does indeed influence this situation. We want to be as helpful as we can to mentees, so we decided this was the right approach, at least this time around.
@Twelfth I would encourage you to sign up. We expect these mentorships to range well beyond specific programming languages or skillsets. Your experience on a team with 22 male DBAs as the only woman, for example, sounds like it would give you invaluable perspective to share with a potential mentee.
@abbyhairboat - Didn't mean to imply I was the lone female. I was one of the 22 males, and now one of the 2 males.
@Twelfth Ah! My bad. Well, we're giving preference to women this time around but keep your eye out for future opportunities - this is a program that we may be expanding down the line :)
@LeoNatan and Bryan: I do not think comments like that are particularly helpful. In technology jobs and some technology communities, women are disproportionately on the receiving end of downright creepy behaviour.
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@abbyhairboat - Will our application form be considered for future mentorship opps, or will we need to apply seperately? I'd like it if I can put in one application and be considered for as many of these programs as you want to do.
@Joe I disagree with the assumption that just b/c you're a female in tech, you're going to face different challenges than your male counterpart. I've been in the minority in school, in the different positions I've held, but I have not experienced challenges that a male coworker wouldn't have. I'm not saying other women don't experience these special challenges, I just disagree with the notion that all will. Anyways, I think the mentorship sounds like a cool idea. I understand why prefs will be given to other females. Sometimes when you're in the minority, it's nice to see others like you!
Joe
Joe
@townsean I'm not saying all will, I'm saying if something does occur, it will be easier to discuss with another female who has potentially been in a similar situation, I'm not assuming anything, unfortunately sexism is an issue in our industry, and this needs to change.
As a female who has gone through EE school with many a class of being the only girl...this is a good idea! Submitting my application form now.
(Not that changes in the workplace. Two jobs, both times I was the only lady on the team. hah!)
@Twelfth If you know you're definitely interested in future opportunities, go ahead and fill out the form. We might need to get more info from you down the line depending on how the future shapes up, but we're happy to keep a file of anyone who's serious about getting involved as we try out new things. (Thanks for your interest!)
We routinely announce new site features, policies, etc. on meta. What makes announcing a company initiative that directly involves the SO community different, @Ganesh? What rules do you think this is breaking?
user1131435
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Wow, such anger over Stack Exchange trying to help some people succeed, trying to pair people with appropriate and helpful resources. I don't understand.
@Emrakul: What's so difficult to understand about deriving negative reactions from positive things? Haven't you heard of inverse proportions, reciprocals, and the like? Hell, it's even one of Newton's laws of motion.
@GaneshSittampalam An external company advertising here would fall more into the realm of taking advantage of something that they don't have a relationship with. I like to think we have a better connection to the community here than another company might. :)
@Ganesh: in the unlikely event this question closes, I will be more than happy to reopen. In the meantime, please consider what reasons you might have for wanting it closed.
user1131435
@BoltClock How DARE you suggest that my knowledge of the universe might not be complete?
@Emrakul: wow such anger very strife halp so success many equality much discriminate
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I feel like this is a very cool thing, and that clarifications on how it'll work is a good thing to note here. I'm confused as to why it's getting closed, though. That doesn't make much sense to me.
Not anger, but joined the vote to close based on--as others have said--it's a test of one's consistency to take who asks a question out of the question and evaluate it impartially. That's what being fair is about. On the same note, I'll remark that I've always thought a better way to look at things is gender neutrality vs trying to "fight fire with fire"...the point should be "it doesn't matter" vs "we pick women", that just is creating the same problem again.
Stack Exchange the company has always been heavily influenced by our community and vice versa. Meta exists so that the company and the community can build things together. This is a new type of initiative, but we think the same dynamics apply.
@HostileFork Taking the law by the letter instead of the spirit? I'm disappoint. :(
user142914
@tmyklebu Apologies if you perceive my comment to be unhelpful, it was intended to be purely light hearted to highlight the irony presented in the question. For what it's worth though, I fully support the motive and I hope it succeeds. The department that I manage is about 90% biased towards males, despite this, 100% of females that have applied for a position have been successful, whereas the success rate for males is probably no higher than 10%. If female workers are subject to 'creepy behaviour', that's a HR issue, and should be dealt with strictly, I certainly wouldn't tolerate it.
@deceze I think neutrality and fairness is the spirit. I'm not sure what letter of law I would be citing.
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Anyway, I signed up! Not sure how or if this'll work out, especially since I'm the wrong gender, but I think it's a terrific idea.
@HostileFork Well, you're neutrally evaluating the question against some rule or another, which has led you to cast a close vote, right? That law, whatever it is.
@deceze You never know- If they don't have enough women sign up, men do probably get picked rather than doubling up. They just said prefer. :)
Diversity in tech has become an increasingly urgent issue, both on- and offline. Says who? The media?
@HostileFork "It shouldn't be mentioned" is an easy thing to say when you're a part of the majority and your status quo isn't affected. We have a long way to go before gender, race, etc actually truly don't matter.
@iStimple So say the multitudes of women who are discriminated against, treated unfairly, or made to feel creeped out by behavior in this industry.
@iStimple: I've run across more and bigger douchebags recently than I did 6-ish years ago. So my personal experience suggests that it's become increasingly urgent.
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I, for one, am glad the NSA now has a list of people who are against gender equality in tech.
Might have made more sense to put applications in answers here? At least so there's something other than a huge comment thread...
@JoshCaswell If folks want to apply, we don't want to put them on the spot, reveal their identity, or, worse still, have them be voted on.
@HostileFork: equality movements have always been predicated on necessary special treatment to reverse the historical status quo (sometimes called 'positive discrimination'). It has often been met by a socially conservative backlash by people of gender/race/class privilege - horrified that they might have to operate on a newly levelled playing field! - but that does not mean it should not be supported. If these correctives cannot be applied, then how shall we reverse societally embedded memes of sexism, and other discriminations?
@AnnaLear I would think most people here would be happy to upvote someone willing to help another person learn through mentoring.
@RevanProdigalKnight Given some of the comments here, I'm not so sure.
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@AnnaLear: You're really going to scan this entire comments thread, however huge it grows, for interested applicants? (Oh. I see the form link now. Read before commenting, tmyklebu, read before commenting.)
@tmyklebu: I think you missed the part of the question where it said to fill out a form.
@AnnaLear I don't know why you are using quote marks around something I did not say. It is all right to talk about disparities and make observations. But if tomorrow I started the HostileFork Eskimos In Computing Initiative, and posted a recruiting message on meta.stackoverflow.com regarding how few Inuits are programming, I think it would (and should) be closed. If I posted about less beheadings, more unicorns, then that is a good cause but not on topic. I do happen to think that women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition; let's all aim higher and not use the language of gender to do so.
@HostileFork agree ^^
@HostileFork: They already do have to aim higher. How many incompetent programmers have you worked with? How many of them were women?
@HostileFork I wasn't trying to attribute words to you, merely mark up that part of my sentence as a thing spoken by somebody. Those words also happened to be a summary of what your comment read like to me.
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@tmyklebu Completely agreed. The very few women I have worked with so far where all decent or better. 90% of men I have worked with plain sucked. Sorry for the language, but I can't put it another way.
@tmyklebu There is no gender, race, political affiliation, or favorite-flavor-of-ice-cream-haver that has any kind of monopoly on incompetence. In my opinion, incompetence is fairly evenly distributed. And plentifully so.
I'm throwing a comment lock on this. You all are welcome to disagree, ignore, support, or participate, but debating the premise of this initiative isn't really the point here. If you have specific questions, please post an answer once this post unlocks. Edit: unlocked for now. I'm watching the comments.
Isn't this just sexism?
@itcouldevenbeaboat how so?, can you elaborate as how a group is being oppresed here?
This sounds like an awesome idea and I'd like to participate by offering to help but I am also not within the target demographic... Should we bother filling out the form if we're not women?
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@Lamak sexism is about when a group is preffered over another based on its sex. hence sexism. there can be such a thing as constructive sexism
@xDaevax They said they can keep the app for later groups and such- And I'm sure they'd pick men if not enough women signed up since they said women are preferred but not women only
Great initiative, terrible Meta post. Hope this works out well for the new graduates!
I'm am officially embarrassed by some of my fellow males on here. No one is stopping males from organizing their own "man on man" mentoring, so this is in no way sexist. And telling women "well you better be able to handle the real world, so kid gloves won't help you attitude" is disgusting as well. Women are scared off from this profession because of creeps with that attitude, and I can't blame them. Seriously guys, grow up. I guess some guys can't handle that maybe some women would be a better developer than themselves?
I'm completely embarrassed by many of the comments here. It is a measurable, quantifiable fact that women compose the vast minority of developers/programmers. This program strives to mentor women in the field of IT in order to bridge the gap, even just by 16 more. I hope that none of them read this thread, lest they potentially decide on a different career... Would YOU feel welcomed in the IT field if this was how your "peers" responded to your entering it? I'd think you were all a bunch of sexist, terrible people... And let me be clear that this is my personal commentary - not professional.
I'm embarrassed too, @patricksweeney. I feel like even beyond the blatant ignorance about a realistic society that these commenters are showing off, there're practical aspects to preferring females. Kinda like I'd probably prefer to be taught to shave my face by a male, I would want to--if I were female--learn to navigate the technical arena by someone who had experienced similar scenarios. It's just pretty straight-forward, even aside from any political biases some of you apparently have.
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It can be hard to empathise and see others viewpoints, or even be aware of the extent of the issue, when you don't live or experience the issue personally. So I can forgive those who are displaying some ignorance in these comments, I just hope that they are willing to listen and learn from those who have experienced it. Really if you think about it logically and look at the reaction to this posting it should come as no surprise that women, who can empathise with the situation, would be prefered as mentors.
@Haney I agree with your embarrasement. This is why I feel uneasy when you write "you were all a bunch of sexist". I am pretty sure this is not meant to be applied to all people in this question, but just the one with sexist comments - Would be nice to make this clear. Because I don't like to be called sexist, and I sure hope I am not one.
@dirkk intentionally written that way as, when I put myself in the shoes of a new female developer, this is how I'd generalize the mood here. It's not accurate, but neither are the comments above re: sexism etc.
@dirkk while I appreciate your sentiment, taking a "not all men" stance is far from productive.
As a young male who grew up knowing women were equal, I don't quite understand why a female mentor is required (aside from the experience of being a woman in a tech field, which I hope would be the same experience I have), but I support this.
It can be hard to empathise and see others viewpoints funny how the viewpoint of everybody here who did not downright totally agree was not even worth being a viewpoint, let alone empathise and view
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@Haney, I too find my attention drawn to the hostile comments, but I feel dirkk's annoyance - Most of the people participating here are highly supportive, and I'd hate them to feel lumped in with folks they're arguing with (although I get the point you were trying to make.)
@Jaydles in the same way that you enter a new town, meet 3 jerks, and think "wow this town is full of jerks" I imagine I'd be a new female developer, read this thread, and think the same. Thus my wording. The problem I'm highlighting is that these few bad apples spoil the bunch in the eyes of others. They speak for us all and embarrass us.
a20
a20
I also hope to see more initiatives for "Men in nursing". It's fast becoming an urgent need.
@Haney, I completely agree with the point you're making (when you're in that position, it can feel like it's ever-present). I was just trying to respond clearly to dirkk to say, "no, I don't think that's meant to be directed at you or the others speaking in support.")
@MatthewHaugen I don't really understand your point. What stance am I taking? It is not meant to be a rhetoric question, I really don't understand your comment. I have not written anything about "not all men". My point was that (fortunately) not all people here are against this project or behave in a sexist way. I don't see what's wrong with this?!
@a20 I'd also love to see this. However, I fail to see what this has to do with this proposal or with StackOverflow in any way.
@a20 things like AAMN?
a20
a20
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@Haney wow those guys look pretty badass.
I've got one question about the preference towards female mentors (before this leads to more flaming in the comments, no, I'm not trying to discriminate anybody): The wording makes it seem like this was a decision made by SO, did you think of asking the mentees if this is their preference as well? I agree that it seems like a logical choice, but it would IMO be a good idea to check with each trainee individually if they're okay with this, or if they might have any reasons for not preferring a female mentor - their choice should be the only thing that matters for selecting the candidates.
@l4mpi, that's a good idea. We talked to them about the program, and asked for input, but didn't specifically offer that as one type they might give. Since I know we have male volunteers, I think that's a great thing to do.
@Haney No one is trying to stop these females or anyone else from entering the industry. People just obviously have different opinions on what equality is. Some people seem to think equality is giving all people a chance at something regardless of their race/gender/etc. While others think equality is about discriminating against the majority race/gender to help the minority group.
a20
a20
@i4mpi I wonder if the logic was "all guy geeks are creeps and no girl would want to work with them". facepalm
Im a bit sad actually when I saw this featured I was quite excited, I like the idea of imparting my knowledge and mentoring people (Why else am I on this site?) and I too agree there too few women in the industry but I can't take part since I'm a guy :(, I don't think it is sexist but at the same time I wouldn't mind having the chance to change the industry using my brain!
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@l4mpi: That's something definitely worth posting as an answer.
The in-person program is 16 female mentees paired with 15 male and 1 female developers. Our goal here was in part to provide some mentorship diversity.
@AnnaLear the question maybe should include this fact as I feel it's very important to the subject/context.
@Sammaye They didn't say you can't apply if you're male, just that preference is going to females.

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