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6:21 AM
@smci Sure, I definitely won't burn out over it, I'm done putting in the 18 hour days from a few years back. At the risk of sounding sensationalist (though I can't find a better way to describe it) it hurt me on a personal level. It goes beyond cargo-culting; this is thousands of lines of code that I've been trying to knit together only to find that the person then brazenly states how good GPT has been in generating their code and I've spent all that time mopping up after it without knowing
That's not a good use of anyone's time, let alone a contractor hired for a specialism. What an exciting new world we live in... :/
 
6:53 AM
@smci ugh. kinda obnoxious to update the code for 3.x, since dict.keys() is no longer random-access but making a list explicitly blows up the runtime
but yes, it reproduces still
the reported sys.getsizeof is smaller for me, though not by as much as I might have hoped
 
The point I was trying to make is that it usually isn't an issue and wouldn't be considered a memory leak. I would probably question the design if a dict would swell to enormous levels of redundant entires. I guess tkinter could be a different kettle of fish given that its very nature is to run continuously but I'm still dubious about whether there really is a "memory leak"
 
7:31 AM
@smci didn't know, thanks
What I was trying to say earlier was, yes, the dict was a good point, but we're not dealing with just a Python dict here. There is a tcl interpreter, etc. I don't know as much in tkinter as Thingamabobs, so I was just going off from what I noticed on my end myself
It's hard to constantly reproduce, down to the exact timing a memory leak. I remember once noticing some on Linux with XWindow, and it would only be noticeable when you used VNC or leaving XWindow running for a week+ (in that case, the pixmap weren't cleaned correctly, so it kept rteference to destroyed window/etc)
I think that was on an older version of XWindow anyway, so that's probably a bad example.
Either way, I agree it might be completely useless for me to say anything further on that point, since I do not have an MRE (or further proof). If the MRE also require a long time of execution, then it might be impossible for anyone to agree unless they're a tkinter dev or have been working with it extensively (or just trust you/give benefit of the doubt). I don't think anyone would want to run an MRE that need X houyrs or X days to see a memory leak...
 
 
2 hours later…
9:25 AM
@roganjosh I mentioned this GPT-fueled nightmare on MSE. I hope that's ok.
GPT can be downright dangerous if you think you're using it responsibly but you don't understand what it's given you. One of the SO Python Room Owners was recently hired as a consultant for a software project in a field in which he has considerable expertise. The code base looks good on the surface, but it seems to be riddled with flaws. — PM 2Ring 19 hours ago
 
9:40 AM
That's absolutely fine :) It's an unfortunate reality now and I don't know how to tackle that. You take it on good-faith that the functions they write are actually thought-out and maybe you need to mentor the person a bit more on how to get everything integrated. The idea that you can get something writing functions in isolation to build actual software is folly
That, I think, is the core of the frustration. That person isn't learning anything because they didn't put the thought into it in the first place. It's just handing over a pile of AI-generated garbage and then it falls on me to try make it work. I'm actually benchmarked against that; if I can't get it working together then it's on my head and I might lose my job
 
10:11 AM
@roganjosh I can see the benefit of using GPT as a co-pilot. But letting it be the main pilot is just crazy.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:20 AM
user image
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Thank you so much @holdenweb... I love it :p
 
11:41 AM
Hey guys, who can help me?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/76384590/sqlalchemy-count-of-records-in-the-relation-of-one-to-many
 
It's good to get such feedback here, by the way. Even if it's painful, thanks for sharing so that others know what they are up against.
Oh my, chat history was out of date... that was in response to @roganjosh's story and reactions to it.
 
The problem is that sqlalchemy does not return the counted amount in the database, no matter how I tried to do it, can anyone know where I went wrong?
 
@MisterMiyagi just a slightly delayed response then :p
 
@MisterMiyagi There's lots of things bundled into this one and I think it'll just get worse. My job is in quite a technical arena so I didn't think it would bite so quickly. In my previous role as Lead I could have shut it down immediately but now I'm in a position where it's "ok, I guess this is my new reality now"
 
@JonClements Just trying to convince everyone I'm a fallible meatbag. :P
 
11:56 AM
Hahaha
The new Turing Test :P
 
@MisterMiyagi no comment? :p
 
@nnekkitt Normally we'd kick questions that aren't 48 hours old, but since this appears to have been written by a fallible meatbag, it's a refreshing change. AttributeError: 'Task' object has no attribute 'comments_found' well, that is very true - it doesn't exist in your model
It's not an attribute of your model, or a backref
 
@roganjosh not getting vibes of GPT bitterness at all there :p
 
The new SQLA confuses me. I could write the raw SQL but I'm not sure about .label() here
 
@roganjosh It's gonna take a while until AI learns to procrastinate like a pro. ;)
 
12:02 PM
@JonClements None. None at all. As my boss said "I can't wait for AI to take over". I'm not even joking.
 
@roganjosh that's pretty sad
 
Oh right... sounds like he thinks "oh... it won't affect my job! hahahah... screw everyone else..."?
 
reminds me of what people said about autogpt being "the future CEO replacement". A bit funny considering it's just recursive prompting
 
Well, truth be told the most problems I see are people misusing AI, not necessarily AI itself.
 
I feel like it's not even misusing it that's the problem. Misusing something stems from how you see it. So the main problem is how people see it and over-glorify it
you can thank all the marketing and buzzwords for that I guess
 
12:08 PM
@roganjosh Yes I understand that, it's just one of my attempts to get comments_found )
 
12:20 PM
If we take it a step back @nnekkitt is there a strong reason for async here?
 
@MisterMiyagi As long as your name isn't John or Sarah Connor you're probably safe (for now) :p
 
@roganjosh Yes, I work with the program
pyrogram*
 
pyrogan?
 
pyrogram makes me think it's a delivery that'll spontaneously combust
 
it is an asynchronous library, and working with it I need to send queries to the database, but I still need to use asynchronous queries with the asynchronous library
 
12:45 PM
I have already reviewed all the guides, everyone works, mine does not work. True, they have session.query, but since the session is asynchronous it has no query method
 
12:58 PM
I'm afraid that I'm not familiar enough with the new ORM to be of any more help here. I could write you the SQL query, but I can't get it into the ORM. Your code actually looks pretty sound to me (in that I would also probably expect it to work)
Well, apart from iterating through the tasks. I'm talking just about the query part
 
1:21 PM
@roganjosh Thanks for that, I'll count it all in python code then, but I don't want to.)
 
Well, that's probably the worst approach of all. Not being able to do it in an ORM doesn't mean "do it in python". It's better to do it in raw SQL
Given the code you've written, I suspect you are also capable of writing the raw query anyway?
 
@roganjosh Yep, thx
 
 
2 hours later…
3:02 PM
If you're interested, I found a solution to the problem, which was to write return results.execute().all() instead of return results.all().
@roganjosh Strangely enough, but the solution in the documentation did not find, but there I got some ideas and I groped my way to solve the problem ORM way )
 
3:34 PM
Open letter for moderation strike on SO openletter.mousetail.nl
14
 
Oh... knew some people were signing it early... didn't realise it had definitely gone live properly yet and I've been sitting in the discord channel lol
 
I don't think they care. They don't care much about feedback in general, they have the "brand", you are just using it. There is a saying in germany "The cow is milked until she gives no more milk".
 
and there was me thinking some English phrases were peculiar :)
 
Also really like that one "the fish starts to stink at the head" :P
 
4:03 PM
@Thingamabobs What does she do after that? She signs an online petition.
Also, it's "rot" from the head, btw, not "stink" :)
Shut my mouth, apparently "stinks from the head down" is also a phrase. I can honestly say that I've never heard it, and it seems odd to me. But I was wrong there, sorry
 
that's like recently when I learned that "more quickly" is actually correct. Feels pretty weird to me so I don't think I will ever use it
 
4:19 PM
Well, for this saying, it's kinda hard to pinpoint a smell, and the smell is only indicative of the problem. "Rots from the head down" makes sense to me, but "stinks from the head down" - well, no, the fish just stinks. I don't investigate whether it's the head and maybe I'll keep the body for dinner :P
 
Probably shouldn't milk it, either.
 
You're missing so much. Open your mind, Miyagi!
 
Oh yes... that delicious fish milk! Yummy!
 
4:35 PM
Do I sense a hint of sarcasm? That really taints the taste. I don't keep all these chambers of fish-people for fun, you know
 
the correct term is "mermaids"
 
I should have said fish-cows. That would be less controversial :P Please don't set the FBI on me :P
 
Fish and Bovine Investigators?
 
@roganjosh It's like you have read my mind :D I make fun of it every time I use it for this exact reason :)
 
@AndrasDeak--СлаваУкраїні Ahh, crap, I need to find a new chimera for my milk business!
 
 
1 hour later…
5:42 PM
Are AI-generated answers really so factually incorrect that the mods need to go to strike over them?
 
Yes
They look normal but often don't work, or are even dangerous
 
Do we have any statistics about this? Bad, incorrect, and dangerous answers are nothing new. Humans have produced answers like that for decades
 
Humans are usually less subtle about it
 
Are they? They usually think they're right, too, just like the AIs
 
@Aran-Fey the elaborate wording hides the blatant lies
 
5:55 PM
If a human posts 10+ answers every hour, then they'll be generally short and clearly bad (or they're likely answering dupes, or similar). OTOH, ChatGPT answers are quite detailed and are easy to spam. Them being allowed incentivizes users to post as many of them as possible, as downvotes are -2 and upvotes are +10. So you only need one or two to sound plausible for a net rep gain (unless a mod suspends you, that is)
 
Too much time wasted with wild goose chases. Am I using the wrong version? Nope, that attribute never existed.
GPT answers are as if written by a malicious sociopath who's trying to hide its ignorance
7
 
Humans can be wrong, of course. I know I've been wrong, for sure. But... when I'm wrong, I'm not posting 10+ wrong answers every hour, and depending on how wrong I am, I'll either edit/delete the answer. That is... not the case if someone is trying to game the system to gain rep
 
@Aran-Fey so they are often right, but also often wrong and you can't tell the difference
 
Ok, I'm starting to get the picture. Sure would've been nice if that open letter included some kind of explanation/rationale/evidence, instead of simply just equating AI = fabrication
 
there's boatloads of context
 
5:58 PM
Have you not seen the absolute nonsense it actually posts?
 
I guess the point of your smurf account shields you from that
That's an insane consensus on a meta post
 
I've hardly programmed anything in months, I don't visit SO these days
 
Honestly. Stop the world. I want to get off.
 
6:07 PM
Those don't even look overly problematic to me. They were quickly identified as wrong
And the minecraft one is deleted because why?
 
They were quickly identified as wrong by people actually paying attention. Are you paying attention to the Python tag?
2
 
I'm not sure how to answer that. No? Because the SO operated by humans was such a low-quality mess that I stopped visiting?
 
That's exactly how to answer that. You're not reviewing it, and now mods won't too. So they will basically be the de facto answers
2
 
@Aran-Fey because it was another gpt answer, which was banned. The ban doesn't apply to only blatantly wrong answers. Exactly because it's too much effort to tell if it's wrong.
 
Oooh, new answers to old questions is a situation I hadn't considered. On new questions, the OP will usually discover incorrect answers fairly quickly
 
6:18 PM
> float64 values have more precision and require more bits to represent, so the processor can perform fewer operations on float64 values to achieve the same level of precision as float16 values
 
Yeah, makes no sense in that context
 
That's the kind of convincing nonsense that needs too many mental CPU cycles to realise
 
@AndrasDeak--СлаваУкраїні Another glass of mermaid milk, sir?
 
And then idiots upvote these, and then innocent noobs fall in the pit
 
That's not even a new problem though, just an old problem made worse
Which is... sad
 
6:42 PM
Hi, I wanted to know why in genetic algorithms, keeping negative fitness values is a bad idea?
 
@insipidintegrator You ask for this stackoverflow.com/q/16186686/13629335 ?
 
6:54 PM
@insipidintegrator because it will diverge?
 
7:06 PM
FWIW I find genetic algos wasteful and slow; I'm yet to see them deployed at scale. The cost function has to run over the whole result of each child, and it needn't be that way. I suspect the reason that you're asking about accepting negative fitness values falls more under simulated annealing, to avoid local minima, and that doesn't give a hoot how you move from one state to another, and you can accept bad moves based on a "temperature" profile
 
 
1 hour later…
8:12 PM
@Thingamabobs No. What you have provided is how to handle them, while I ask for why to handle them.
@roganjosh why will they diverge? What will diverge? I just started learning GAs so pardon my naivety pls.
 
@insipidintegrator that's not true though? if you didn't notice, there two other answers on that question that explain in more details why handling them is better: stackoverflow.com/a/55433915/12349101 and stackoverflow.com/a/64295818/12349101
@roganjosh I don't know much about this, but I have a feeling, while it's less versatile than a neural network, it works faster for certain problem than training and doing inference on a neural network
 
@insipidintegrator Why wouldn't it diverge? You're breeding a population that has a negative fit compared to what you want
@NordineLotfi For the type of problems that GAs are used for, NNs are of no help
 
yep, that's what I was thinking
 
@insipidintegrator What do you want? Are you at least clear on that problem? It'd be easier if I knew at least that part
 
@insipidintegrator another good post I remember linking before in this room for a similar problem: stackoverflow.com/questions/177271/…
I'm not an expert in genetic algorithms, but I'm sure handling the negative values are entirely dependent on how you implement the roulette selection algorithm
I find experimentation rather than theory helps a lot with that, but that's just me
 
8:23 PM
Why the roulette selection algo?
 
because that's what is usually used? I mean I know there are other ones, but that's what I used last time. If they use a different algorithm, maybe they need to mention that :/
 
Will that explain why "keeping negative fitness values is a bad idea?"?
 
ah, I see why you asked. Maybe I should have said "entirely dependent on how you implement [] selection algorithm"
 

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