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17:00
Can't imagine there are that many companies who have immature enough comms to bicker with and silence people criticising their product
It's not like you can just not read blog posts about your product, like another community. Meta is right there.
@AnttiHaapala I flagged it as non-constructive, the flag was binding.
@AnttiHaapala: I recommend a URL hostname blocker.
I can remove that
@AnttiHaapala Assign Power of Attorney to a trusted party and give them complete control over your internet connection :-)
17:02
Look at the cute kitten everyone! I can't even remember what we were talking about it's so cute.
Make it harder to remove. Put an intercepting proxy between you and your router
@ZeroPiraeus too expensive :D
My one attempt at sanity:
in Documentation Public Beta, 28 secs ago, by Robert Grant
@AdamLear there's a useful article here on this sort of thing, although it's about dealing with customer feedback rather than volunteer feedback.
Rbrb
9
A: Why was I moderator-suspended from chat for 24 hours?

Tim PostThe launch of Documentation brought out something that's as hard to articulate as it is to absorb, how people feel. Some people are really good at expressing their feelings in a constructive way, others just kinda let the raw feelings out, which often comes in the form of unactionable hostility. ...

17:07
@JonClements :-|
@WayneWerner link
@WayneWerner link to edits :? D
It's all very quiet now.
Too quiet...
user559633
still waiting for my gosh darn video card
17:17
We're forming a militia and planning a coup in secret.
But keep quiet, because it's secret.
You mean you're just planning a totally innocent parade?
Err, I forget if anyone in here listens to Nightvale
I do.
user559633
FedEx...more like Fed-taking-their-time-union-rules-say-fill-the-workweek-Ex...
D'OH
someone merged Python 3 vs 2 and Python 3 and 2 compatibility
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
user559633
OH YEAH
user559633
17:19
link to the thing?
312
score
47
47 examples
98 contributors
it's now got everything on the face of this earth
Possible to unmerge?
@AnttiHaapala stuff like that is why I feel like docs is going to require an entire wipe after the beta is over
I'm sure it's as easy as a git unmerge, so just delete it and start over
user559633
user image
5
17:21
@enderland We can only hope.
I still have the deadline
@AnttiHaapala I'm sure someone could kickmute you from here if you liked ;-)
I'm back. I didn't miss anything, did I?
user559633
oh? yeah
@AndrasDeak yes,
17:23
Nah been pretty chill.
no drama whatsoever
@AndrasDeak no drama, excepting that half the RO's were suspended.
That's cause all the drama shifted to the drama room docs chat
Half? It was like 3/10.
never trust a physicist
17:24
Should I open a meta about transparency in SO? It would be better if somebody posted it who actually saw what was deleted
user559633
lol people criticizing docs got suspended?
Never trust a Finn, they only have 6 fingers from the frostbite.
user559633
that's fucking stupid
@tristan well suspension was overturned
user559633
hell hath no fury like a late stage product manager hired by a q&a forum on the internet
17:25
@tristan see slack
after 30 minutes
@AndrasDeak Nah man, Tim posted an answer to the question so I think it's all done now.
user559633
thanks, on it :)
23
A: Why was I moderator-suspended from chat for 24 hours?

Tim PostThe launch of Documentation brought out something that's as hard to articulate as it is to absorb, how people feel. Some people are really good at expressing their feelings in a constructive way, others just kinda let the raw feelings out, which often comes in the form of unactionable hostility. ...

@Ffisegydd I'm a bit concerned still about the new habit of mods erasing traces of <insert your favourite object here>
17:25
tl;dr yes, we did, and most (all?) of us are not now
but I guess I should let it go for now
user559633
i was cleaning my office/streaming room
anyway, people are doing bad merges on the docs exactly because there is no introductory paragraph for each topic,
@AndrasDeak No mods were involved thank you :)
additionally, @WayneWerner's completely valid Python 2 / 3 compatibility example was rejected by someone namde PythonMaster
17:26
@AndrasDeak <insert annoying gif here>
@JonClements that's good to hear:) So CMs then:D
"because "range" is a function and cannot be assigned to" (TIL).
I do tend to use "mod" for anybody with a blue name, sorry about that
@AnttiHaapala one he was the learner, but now PythonMaster is the master?
muchly
They are functions!
17:28
hey, believe the PythonMaster
Everything is illuminated, thank you, PythonMaster
both of them were wrong, the first had thrown on raw_input already on Python 3.
this is one
This is why I don't want community docs, because the community is wrong. :P
I don't actually think the python docs are that bad, anyways
17:31
Thankfully they're not too terrible, mostly because all of us have been working at them like crazy.
But compared to the real docs they're pretty bad.
@enderland but...oh you mean the SOD version
the other?
@AndrasDeak no the real ones
like, SOD is solving a problem that doesn't exist with python
17:32
@enderland we're all happy with the official docs
Oh, yeah, the real Python docs are fantastic.
@enderland at first I thought you were trolling
@WayneWerner did you post to meta about the rejection?
SOD is not for python
and not for matlab
I have a lot of concerns about SOD, lol
(two of the languages I'm active in)
17:32
My only complaint with Python documentation is that Google and Amazon's API docs are bad, but that's hardly the fault of Python. ;)
user559633
i for one, am glad that there's a less good LPTHW now, because now LPTHW won't get brought up as much
@AnttiHaapala No, I could, though
@WayneWerner there was a mistake :D
@tristan "I read this in the Documentation: <completely misplaced and buggy example>"
that both failed to address though
17:33
probably worthwhile to post now about <this is a probem>
/OFF
GIF of the Day:
user image
3
/ON
@WayneWerner urlparse is not the function, it's the module :D
AttributeError: module 'urllib.parse' has no attribute 'parse'
@PeterVaro :D
user559633
that's great
parsed = urlparse.urlparse('example.com')
neds to be this
17:34
@PeterVaro also, 5000! congrats:)
@PeterVaro congrats
@AndrasDeak was faster, @PeterVaro that's a schematic diagram of SOD :D
@AnttiHaapala That's what I get for using bits of code that I don't use that often :P
lest anyone think I'm all gungho about SOD - meta.stackoverflow.com/a/329553/1048539
that's pretty much what you are lamenting @AnttiHaapala
@AndrasDeak && @AnttiHaapala ahh.. the funny fact about the 5k is, that I have not answered a single question in like a year or so and it just grew from 3k to 5k without me.. so it is not really my fault per se, but thanks anyway!
your fault:D
TIL cows walking on teats generate rep for themselves
17:37
That's udderly ridiculous.
I think it's udderly hilarious
In order to prevent confusion in the future, I hereby suggest that we call CMs what they are, rather than "mods". I suspect friction will most likely come from CMs. Our mods are (almost all) great:)
but if it is ridiculous, I suppose we'll just have to make the breast of it
@AndrasDeak Apart from the Dutch guy and the one that thinks he's a dog.
17:40
that goes without saying
user559633
approve my sweet change, yo. i want to play
user559633
choo choo epoint train leaving the station
Now to find out if that counts as a substantive edit.
user559633
Yep! Wondering the threshold and generally how it works.
Did you just get 5 rep?
17:45
I think you get 5 rep for any edit and upvotes
@tristan wtf, where did that float() come from
They kept saying that it was only for "substantial edits".
I have been trying to weed out thta float() cast stupidity
Holy cabbage, that mass of examples is incredibly daunting.
How is that helpful?
@davidism read above^
user559633
17:47
@AnttiHaapala not sure! the interface didn't even let me see the submit button, so i was tabbing blind.
some %"¤#%#"¤%#"¤%#"¤%"¤%"% idiot has merged Python 2 vs 3 and Python 2-3 polyglot topics
@AnttiHaapala community documentation \o/
user559633
I got 2 rep for that. Was wondering if short and to the point would be disregarded
loads of reeeeepppp
@tristan that is edit approve, but you will get rep for upvotes
17:48
@AnttiHaapala don't know you, it's the same thing
Enumerating differences vs enabling compatibility is two separate topics. Wow.
I suggest merging all python topics into one, and having a single link to the official py3 docs
cbg
cbg @poke
user559633
Interesting. And it locked me out of doing another edit.
17:49
it'd be nice if SE had a way to filter by version, so you could just "enable" different tags and documentation that matched the tags showed up
user559633
I'm wondering if someone could just crop dust along topics and max rep
so if you wanted cross compatible stuff, you'd select 3 and 2
I upvoted after approving the edit, so it seems like it was too small of an edit.
@tristan I'm sure a lot of people are already doing that
@tristan Yup. They have been.
17:49
sowing their noble seeds all across SOD
@davidism there is no intro at the top,
so someone just merged the 2
can you just recommend deletion of stuff?
To be fair, "intro at top" is one of the things in their "currently working on" meta post.
@AnttiHaapala I sooo hope that it was somebody with 2 score in [python]
the 2vs3 topic has a lot of incredibly low quality stuff
17:50
How do we fix it? Meta post?
@Ffisegydd let's go to Doc chat
@enderland you can, just delete examples, and get approves
Beat the ever-living crap into whoever approved?
@Ffisegydd call Jay and Silent Antti
17:52
I'd have had a focus text saying "this article is for newcomers to Python 3 to know the differences. See topic XXXX for examples on how to write Python 2 and 3 compatible code in libraries"
How do you view history again?
user559633
Added another edit. Testing something
@Ffisegydd difficult.
seriously now!!!
@Ffisegydd I’m actually thinking about writing an answer
An article on python 2 and 3 differences says: "use future imports"
no, don't use __future__ imports
you do not need them if you're writing python 3 only code.
17:55
we should place bets on how long @AnttiHaapala lasts with SOD
I should be working, really
I'm surprised he's not already degenerated into a frothing mass of anger.
though really inline comparison isn't good, it'd be nice if you had columns showing functionality in 2/3 each
why did martijn have to delete that shit
But then he's like that all the time...
17:57
no mcve stackoverflow.com/questions/38596526/… Also, link to screenshot of code. And OP needs to improve their English if they don't want to appear to be a rude pig.
@Ffisegydd there was an article today in newspapers about an animal spreading in Finnish fresh waters
this
this is me after one week of SOD ^
310
score
47
47 examples
99 contributors
there is nothing wrong in me fixing some incorrect examples on SOD.
oh, weird, that didn't link the changeset
but everything in n00bs coming in and unfixing my fixes
17:59
which... awkwardly shows no diff (wtf?)
user559633
That tristan guy really knows how to edit a documentation.
@AnttiHaapala What shit did I delete now?
@MartijnPieters my comment :D
inb4 "Mac!?"
18:00
@MartijnPieters linux user here :D
user559633
Uhhh, this is the internet. If you're not losing your shit over meaningless garbage, you're not doing it right.
There are Linux versions.
You could always just add 127.0.0.1 stackoverflow.com chat.stackoverflow.com meta.stackoverflow.com to your /etc/host file.
On a related note, I do not understand why I don't remember its number
ah will do for now :D
but just for chat and meta :D
ok rbrb :D
18:03
or, y'know, piss off bluefeet in chat
hem...
and need to restart firefox it seems :/
user559633
@AndrasDeak far easier than editing /etc/hosts
right?
ah going to install a dnsflusher, that's useful actually
user559633
just disagree or post more than a handful of comments on an answer and she'll be about to delete the content and/or "moderate"
18:04
I hope he was talking about blacklisting SO, not whitelisting
that's what I was referring to, obviously:P
just hit signout of your SO profile
user559633
~~*Press ALT-F4 4 free rep*~~
@tristan he's on linux. :P
@enderland works still
user559633
Sweet, +5 for upvoting a documentation thing I edited.
18:05
depending on distro and settings
user559633
Good point, me!
@tristan I'm curious if now that I've edited the main 2v3 one if I'll get that too
every action is an edit
user559633
bro 2v3 me irl
if you move, merge, etc., it's still a deletion+insertion, I think
so you only get rep for what has you in its edit history
at least that's my understanding
18:06
Huh, I didn't get rep for upvoting the topic I edited. :/
that's correct:(
@MorganThrapp me either, what happens if someone upvotes stackoverflow.com/documentation/python/809/… ?
downvotes
@enderland I already upvoted it.
@MorganThrapp what if you un/re upvote it?
user559633
18:07
does import this send directly to stdout?
user559633
>>> dis.dis('import this')
  1           0 LOAD_CONST               0 (0)
              3 LOAD_CONST               1 (None)
              6 IMPORT_NAME              0 (this)
              9 STORE_NAME               0 (this)
             12 LOAD_CONST               1 (None)
             15 RETURN_VALUE
I think so
user559633
it's been a while since i've snake charmed and/or used python
d = {}
for c in (65, 97):
    for i in range(26):
        d[chr(i+c)] = chr((i+13) % 26 + c)

print "".join([d.get(c, c) for c in s])
user559633
Apropos: If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
18:08
@tristan is the reverse true?
> If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
NameError: name 's' is not defined
@AndrasDeak wat?
user559633
the reverse is nonsense
user559633
>>> t
"If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea."
>>> t[::-1]
".aedi dab a s'ti ,nialpxe ot drah si noitatnemelpmi eht fI"
18:10
@JonClements and @KevinMGranger sorry, wanted to spare the random text from chat
I copied most of what's in this.__file__
I know, i just run anything I see. It's a problem
I might have done it in the least clear way possible:D
@AndrasDeak That is some weird obfuscation.
18:11
twisted is currently kicking my ass
I must win
Just a small confo, == is of higher precedence than or and hence x or y == 1 will become (x) or (y==1). Is this correct?
@MorganThrapp I believe it's called rot13;)
@BhargavRao I think so
@tristan post that two more times and you'll invoke the Deep Ones.
@AndrasDeak Oh, I was missing that it was pulling it in from s. I thought it was generating the whole message in a weird nested loop.
>>> False or 1==1
True
>>> False or 0==1
False
@MorganThrapp nah, sorry about that
18:14
One of the jokes of the this module is that its source code breaks just about every rule of the Zen of Python.
@AndrasDeak Thanks
@AndrasDeak Wouldn't that mean it's doing (False or 1) == 1?
Wait, nope. I'm an idiot.
@BhargavRao wait, I'm not sure that's conclusive
user559633
you should write all your code like this:
user559633
>>> [lambda x: x, lambda x: x + 1][False](2)
2
18:15
I'll let an actual computer person answer, @Bhargav:P
print(False or 1==1) # True, okay it is (False) or (1==1).
I am confused too, Because (x or y) == 1, also looks perfectly valid.
print(False or 2==1) # False
>>> (False or 1)==1
True
>>> False or (1==1)
True
@BhargavRao relevant, v-- even relevanter
This is the Tl;Dr, Which one among them is the correct one for False or 1 ==1
So many new users have been caught up trying to get if response == "y" or "Y": to work
@KevinMGranger Thanks, That's perfect.
@BhargavRao (x) or (y==1)
18:18
Yeah
Thanks Guys.
user559633
))<<or>>((
@Kevin Exactly, They are dupes of that "How do I test one value against multiple values"
It's funny. I have a feeling nobody ever gets confused about how a==b or c==d works, but change the example to a == b or c and suddenly everyone needs to check the docs
It's the Errors that confuse ;)
18:21
Vaguely relevant stackoverflow.com/a/36551857/4014959 although I didn't exactly cover the False or 1 ==1 thing
>>> 1 == 0 or 1
1
@KevinMGranger doesn't help
user559633
I think it's because while people understand truthiness i python, seeing a loose variable (as in, not part of an expr) makes the brain stop
(1==0) or 1 vs 1==(0 or 1) both true
Why are you even discussing this a or b or c == x thing?
18:22
I'm confused by that myself
because we're stupid
Mea Culpa; Adding an entry to the common gotchas in the SO Docs.
I feel like I closed three questions with that duplicate target today, so why do you keep talking about it? :D
Bhargav came and shone a bright light on our ignorance:P
I hope I didn't start "a change all the console based input/outputs to prints with commented out" rush
user559633
18:23
because we're bored
Oh it would help if I actually read and didn't assume the chart was high to low. Then again, having () at the lowest would be dumb
@JGreenwell bah...we've discussed this previously
extensively
@poke Looks like you're following Py dupes too (apart from C# ;))
@BhargavRao yup, been very busy :P
It works surpisingly well during work
You'll spend 50 votes on dupes in a jiffy.
18:24
@AndrasDeak to be fair we've done that with a lot of topics today
:D
I was not trying to stifle you; only grump about docs conventions (or lack thereof)
what I mean started around here
can you make a strikethrough across the wrong example?
or is that overkill?
@PM2Ring That's a really good post.
Thanks!
18:35
@AndrasDeak Would have looked nice.
@AlexvanEs you're commenting at the wrong place. But: Never use eval() with external data, for both security reasons, and performance reasons. You don't want every python code to be a valid command, but only specific functions. Using eval here would be like expecting a parcel, and instead of leaving a note to leave the package, you'd leave your keys, you banking account credentials and birth certificate pinned to the door. — Marcus Müller 24 mins ago
I love it!
whaaat?
I edited that thing
looked nice in preview
now it has broken markdown:S
ARGH
sorry and screw it
oh wait I can retract
no I can't, only edit or resubmit to review
ffs
It says retracted
@JonClements but now it's a draft I have, which I can't delete:S
either it will linger forever, warning everybody that their edit might conflict with mine; or resubmit it
WAIT
I still dunno, They could have planned it better.
18:41
@AndrasDeak in the top right, there's a list of drafts, click the gear icon and click delete.
AWW YISS
@JonClements Hey, Now even Room Owners can place a room in timeout :P
@davidism yeah thanks, just found it
hooray for support:D
@BhargavRao Oh? Is that new today or something?
we should write this feature into an example of the docs of SOD on SOD
18:44
@JonClements Dunno, I was thinking of moving some messages in some room, there was a timeout option :P

Speak for yourself, Fred

May 24 at 15:46, 2 minutes total – 16 messages, 7 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 24 at 15:52 by davidism

Looking through our weird bookmarks is always great.
I didn't even remember making that one.
@davidism Do we have normal bookmarks?
That's pretty delightful
Wish I knew a bit more about C so I could give a more detailed answer to What does it mean if get_ident() returns the same value?
18:53
evening cbg
@Withnail cbg
Digging through the CPython source, I think get_ident returns something like the address of the thread object? In which case the answer to "how often are collisions likely to occur between a just-deallocated thread and a just-allocated thread" is the same as the answer to "how often is a slot of memory immediately re-used if you allocate and deallocate two objects of identical size one after the other?"
I expect the answer is "very often" but I can't back it up
In SQLAlchemy, can I get the name of the database I'm connected to? Ideally without issuing a query manually?
Do all databases even have names? #NotAllDatabases
I'm using mssql as the db, and they do in that.
18:56
You need to check your database privilege.
I'm not sure about other backends.
I’m out for today, had enough of chat for today. See you tomorrow, rhubarb!
See yah, Poke.
@poke rhubarb
@Ffisegydd heh.
18:56
Take care
@MorganThrapp you should be able to get it from the engine / url. I'm fairly sure that's parsed out somewhere.
bye bye poke
@davidism That's what I would've assumed, I just couldn't find it. I'm certain it's something obvious.
I would expect SQLAlchemy to only make a thing easy if that thing is in the intersection of features supported by all of the backends it is compatible with.
Only some backends have DB names, therefore you will suffer trying to find them.
disclaimer: I have exactly 180 minutes of experience with SQLAlchemy.
oh well, that didn't last that logng.
18:59
Surely there must be a url or ip property for when you connect?

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