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1:01 PM
We discuss the story and break it down to understand its complexity. Once we have all agreed that we understand the requirements, we vote
 
Isn't tristan's example of a config change a good one, where it's low complexity but changes in lots of places?
 
it's excellent
 
E.g. "walk 100 miles" is pretty low complexity, but its complexity doesn't make it any less time consuming
 
Hi everyone, can anyone recommend me a framework for writing server for multiplayer games? Basically the client will be coded in Unity, what i want is to have few rest api calls for authentication and general get/post data, and sockets either tcp or udp for matchmaking, and semi authoritative server side logic for each game that is currently playing. The game idea is to have matchmaking and turn based multiplayer capabilities
 
Exactly. @RobertGrant There is nothing stopping us from voting a task a 2 that we know will take a very long time.
we never incorporate time
 
1:04 PM
So you'd do that?
 
user559633
Where that becomes insidious is managers using the numbers as if they mean something -- "last week we did 40 points! the week before we did 45! we're doing a disappointing 30 this week; we need to step it up"
 
Sorry, I don't understand the question @RobertGrant
 
@tristan what's the point of the numbers if you do nothing with them?
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Exactly. People use the numbers for something even though everyone totally knows they're not representative of time-spend or work done.
 
user559633
Yet, "velocity" is an important concept in the sca^H^H^H "methodology". If you were to skip the framework and talk in terms of hours and "can we do this in our 'sprint' (the next two weeks)", then you would also be skipping the agile-consultants and companies.
 
1:07 PM
Aren't you meant to commit to a certain set of tasks in sprint planning, based on velocity and the number of points each task is assigned?
Otherwise you should just have a prioritised backlog and sod the points
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Yes, exactly. If you go into a sprint with 20 lollipop points and your team normally does 40 bubblegum points, the PM will wonder why you're under-allocating yourselves for that sprint.
 
That happens when the PM clashes with the scrum bubble
 
user559633
steve-yegge.blogspot.ru/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html is pretty perfect for why agile exists and its issues.
 
@tristan yeah and you may say that X turned out to take much longer be more complex, or someone was on leave or whatever, but that's a reasonable question to ask your paid employees
 
" throw a cheap-ass pathetic little party, maybe. This step is optional." hahah
 
user559633
1:14 PM
@RobertGrant There's also the problem of "everyone estimates a thing to be a 5 (for whatever that means). i start working on it and there's a subtle complexity that would force me to either blow up that estimate or just do something cheap and lazy. keep in mind that i'm most developers, which one do i do if otherwise i have to talk more in a meeting?"
 
^^ We actually just experienced exactly this
and looking back. This was our exact experience
story of 8 points.....we started....it started getting more complicated. It leaked in to a second sprint thinking that it would be done on the day 2 of the sprint. NOPE
it went to the end of next spring and still not done
we re-structured how we want to approach our story estimates and now we break down everything to understand as much of the complexities we can before diving in
 
@RobertGrant ooh a friend of mine is doing his master's thesis researching why there is such a disparity between time development guessed something would take, and time it actually took to implement a feature. - And to find integral ways to make a better time schedule.
 
I hate to say this but in short, the solution was actually "talk more in a meeting".
Which takes away from developing.
It just seems like there is no clean solution
 
user559633
Agile is better than nothing if you need to wrangle a bunch of noobs, but it leads to severe architectural problems and tech debt unless you're particularly mindful. There's a reason it came out of project-based consulting and the difficulty of explaining software engineering to a client as a consultant (a task that takes me 5 minutes actually took a decade of work experience to know where to spend that effort).
 
@paul23 that sounds like a
I think you have to have a manager (and a customer) who is ready to hear "No, that's not done" in a sprint review. I say that quite a lot, and it's fine as long as it's justified
Agreed it makes most sense in consulting
 
1:18 PM
@RobertGrant If that's a joke it flew right over my head... Or actually miles over.
 
Maybe it was hit by a tennis racquet
 
user559633
As a software consultant, I like Agile because I can go to a meeting, identify a problem that I've solved before, call it rightfully 20% of the complexity of a project, then go into my directory of canned architectures/software, and tweak it a little.
 
You could do that without agile :)
 
user559633
No, because then I'd have to lie and say "oh, this will take me 30 minutes to implement."
 
Oh, okay. I see what you mean.
 
user559633
1:24 PM
Now if you pretend that I'm a transnational consulting company, I don't have to talk in terms of minutes and instead can put two untrained/junior devs on a project where that 13 point story ~= 20% of the work in the sprint and train them on the client's dime.
 
@idjaw I would argue that a properly-managed meeting should contribute to the solution, since before you can solve a problem you have to understand it. Otherwise you are back in the 1960s
"I'll start coding, you go see what they want"
3
 
user559633
@holdenweb lol
 
I might add that in parallel my planning manager (yes, my first hire was a planning guy) is concurrently talking with the product owner and other stakeholders about the requirements for Alpha1 (June) and Beta0 (September) while carefully hiding that conversation from the team so they don't start worrying about it.
 
user559633
@holdenweb Yeah, I'd say that this is doing it "correctly"
 
So it's not like we aren't also doing a modicum of "big up-front design," but right now I'm trying to keep the guys (sadly we haven't yet attracted even one female developer) focused on the Alpha0 release date
 
1:33 PM
@Kevin: here's one for you: imgur.com/gallery/bGuyn
 
user559633
@holdenweb Why is it sad? As long as your environment isn't actively repelling female applicants, there's nothing sad about that.
 
@tristan I'll take that as a compliment - thanks!
 
user559633
@holdenweb Good, it was meant as one.
 
@holdenweb I wasn't posing my example as something I found counterproductive to our work. We actually found that by focusing on breaking down the stories in our sprint, we were better prepared to confidently take down tasks within our 2 week plan.
 
user559633
One of the best ways to get developers to do nothing productive is to get them thinking about code they might not even end up writing.
 
1:36 PM
@tristan OK, here's a little story. When I was hired, the company had already instigated a new office build-out to use the remainder of the space they had rented. When I started work I discovered that the build-out included a shower room (good) with a toilet (even better).
Except the toilet was a urinal
 
user559633
Oof. Well, I mean, that's an easy fix.
 
So, perhaps you will understand when I say I feel the management still has to come to grips with the concept of a fully diverse workforce
 
temp-rbrb
 
user559633
It might have just been an oversight for repurposing what used to be a men's room.
 
Sure, I can take the pisser our and put a proper toilet in. Alas that doesn't fix the thoughtlessness that caused the bug in the first place
@tristan nope: completely new space
 
user559633
1:37 PM
Never attribute to ignorance that which you can attribute to building-contractor laziness.
 
user559633
Oh, then whoops.
 
CBG all.
 
cbg, bugrit, 6th
 
@tristan you look like a dead snake :p.
 
user559633
@The6thSense i feel like a dead snake
 
1:38 PM
"I would like to complain about this snake, what I purchased in this very chat room not 'alf an hour ago"
 
@MartijnPieters I must find and destroy these objects.
 
@Kevin you know, that was actually the wrong link?
I meant this one (from the comments there):
 
are all those bar rotating at a constant (but different) speed? and do they keep the same length?
 
They all keep the same arc length (180 degrees)
 
@paul23 Each arc is making the same number of rotations as their distance from the center. So the innermost half-circle makes one rotation, the next 2, etc.
 
1:44 PM
I have a similar piece except in mine it's the exterior arc that makes only one revolution, rather than the interior one.
 
@Kevin and those are 90 degree arcs.
 
Yeah.
 
Your code could be trivially adapted to make the above.
 
Yeah I think I could just change angle = f * 2 * math.pi * j to angle = f * 2 * math.pi * i and that would do it
... And also change math.radians(90) to math.radians(180)
 
and replace a 90 with 180 :-)
yeah, that one.
 
1:47 PM
Well you'll get a "similar effect" so long as all rotations period multipliers are a rational numbers. - That way at some point in the future they will perfectly align aain
 
is there any better way to parse data from a socket than to run it through some regex? I feel like regex is super unreliable sometimes
 
user559633
@corvid what kind of data
 
I'll be glad when that fabulous rotating graphic scrolls off the top of my page












That's better!
 
@tristan It comes back as an ascii encoded string that contains some kind of message like PositionZ:10.000 or something
 
user559633
you could either serialize or structure the data differently on the other end. at this point, pretend you're getting the data from any other source.
 
1:57 PM
@MartijnPieters that thing looks super weird through transparent iterm windows
 
@corvid You could send json-encoded objects, if you don't care that you're wasting space with superfluous brackets.
 
user559633
i like structs
 
On the other extreme, you could write your own serialization scheme that wastes no space. "The first byte indicates the X coordinate of the widget, the second byte indicates the Y coordinate", etc.
 
@Kevin Ooo, that's a good idea, I like that because then I could just use the json.loads
 
I think tristan and I are saying the same thing in different ways.
 
user559633
1:59 PM
we are. and saying them amusingly in intertwined levels of detail
 
I have defined def ttimeit(f):
from timeit import default_timer as timer
start = timer() ; result = f ; print("sim time = " + str(timer() - start))
return result
and it works fine for ttimeit(1)
But, it fails at ttimeit(print(1))
 
Use protocol buffers if you need to save space but don't have forever to write your own serialisation wotsit
 
I know minecraft uses a struct-y approach. Everything's packed tight into a single byte sequence
 
why 1 is a function but print(1) is not?
 
@ValentinTihomirov how much Python experience do you have? Why do you think ttimeit(print(1)) would work?
print is a function which will return None, why are you trying to pass it into a function?
 
user559633
2:01 PM
protobuf is pretty good, yeah, but if you're just throwing some simple data back and forth from c/python/something-that-supports-c, then i like structs because no dependencies
 
Yeah makes sense
 
@ValentinTihomirov Runs just fine on my machine. I get "1 [newline] sim time = 7.894688019692509e-07" as output.
Are you using Python 2 or 3? print isn't a function in 2 so I'd expect it to give a SyntaxError there.
 
@Kevin You should have a lot of experience :))
 
But in any case I second what Ffisegydd said. That code will not time a function properly.
 
@ValentinTihomirov have you looked at the timeit documentation, and seen how to use it?
 
2:04 PM
At best, you're timing the amount of time it takes to perform a single assignment of a value to the "result" name.
 
The problem that I have is not related to timeit.
 
No you're right it's not.
 
Well, best of luck with your problem. I have to go back to yelling at the win32 api documentation.
 
lambda: 1 is fine. Lambda: print(1) fails the same way.
 
2:06 PM
@ValentinTihomirov in conclusion: you still haven't looked at the docs
 
Is it because lambda first evaluates print(1). What does lambdification has to do with timeit?
 
Great question
 
Asking great questions does not help, as I see.
 
6 mins ago, by Robert Grant
@ValentinTihomirov have you looked at the timeit documentation, and seen how to use it?
 
43k - I guess I no longer have the rep to answer questions relating to life, the universe, and everything...
 
user559633
2:18 PM
@MattDMo The amount of rep required to do that is an undergrad psychology student?
 
@RobertGrant as long as the channels are 8-bit safe
@ValentinTihomirov I suspect you are being pointed at the documentation so you understand what the argument to your ttimeit function should be, and how you shoud use it inside the function.
Note that the way your code is currently structured print(1) is evaluated and passed into your function, where it is merely referenced. If you want the work to be done between your timer calls, you need to pass something executable (a function) and then call it inside your ttimeit() function.
 
@holdenweb I think that you do not understand that this has nothing to do with timeit pecularities at all.
I have supplied you example with lambda: print(1), trying to supply the print(1) as func. Timeit docs have not help here. You just ignore the common sense, ignore what I write. You are just trolling.
 
Ah, right. I guess I'd better shut up, then. Thank you for being so polite
I guess you have some magic way to time code that was already executed. That's pretty funky stuff
 
I think that you have some block which does not let you understand what is the real problem people are struggling with. Keep insisting that I need to read the timeit doc.
 
@Valentin have you read the timeit docs yet? They should contain everything you need...
 
2:31 PM
>>> def work(f):
...     print("Starting work")
...     f
...     print("Stopping work")
...
>>> work(print("The work is already done"))
The work is already done
Starting work
Stopping work
>>> def work(f):
...     print("Starting work")
...     f()
...     print("Stopping work")
...
>>> work(lambda: print("The work is already done"))
Starting work
The work is already done
Stopping work
>>>
The defence rests
 
user559633
Yeah holdenweb, stop trolling.
 
user559633
cbg vaultah
 
@MattDMo would 442k work?
 
Hi :)
 
@MartijnPieters showoff!
 
2:36 PM
:-P
 
I suppose at that level, you've already derived the answer from first principles, and optimized it.
 
Hi, could anyone help me find a way to re-use (or close) sockets instead of keeping them in time_wait? I very quickly exhaust them: stackoverflow.com/questions/35747235/…
 
anyone have any thoughts on this? medium.com/@rosshosman/…
I'm not a 1password user, but thought I'd share
 
@vaultah out of curiosity, how come you can't hammer that yourself with the gold badge?
 
2:51 PM
I edited tags
 
ah so it's one action per question?
 
Hammer wielders can't edit a tag into a post and then hammer the post based on the new tag.
They can edit a tag into a post and then hammer it based on an already existing tag, though.
 
10
A: Only prohibit those who edited the tags from using the dupe hammer

Thomas OrozcoWe have changed the behavior of the dupehammer. It now lets you single-handedly close as duplicate unless you have participated in editing the tag (either by adding the tag yourself, or approving an edit that did). The whole thing is explained in detail, with screenshots, on Meta Stack Exchange:...

 
understood. Makes sense
thanks
 
I guess they want to avoid sneaky behavior like "I don't like this C question. I will edit onto it, hammer it, then remove from it"
 
2:54 PM
That's an actual scenario?
 
That's even clearer.
That's a good precaution
 
Why not just... I dunno, ban abusers?
 
My memory is fuzzy but I believe I witnessed that exact scenario the week that hammering was introduced.
@QuestionC That which can be automated, should be :-)
 
@QuestionC If they persist... otherwise, this requires two users to collaborate and makes sure things don't go missing on the timeline...
 
The whole system is designed around the assumption that gold badges are acting in good faith. Preventing one form of abuse is more like symptom hiding than fixing things.
 
3:01 PM
And since it's gone so well, that's why it got loosened up a little, and although I haven't heard of any progress, I believe Tim was looking at also considering a silver tag badge to have a bit more weight (somehow or other)
 
If the choice was between "don't let bad guys perform sneaky hammers" and "don't let bad guys do anything bad", I'd agree with you. But from a practical standpoint the choice is between "don't let bad guys perform sneaky hammers" and "let bad guys perform sneaky hammers, then ban them afterwards and revert the change"
I can't accept "banning after the fact will eventually work because at some point only good guys will remain" either. For a web site of this size I think it's reasonable to assume that we'll get a steady influx of bad-faith users until the end of time
 
@Kevin yeah their statement is patent balls
 
Morning spending-an-hour-booting-my-computer cabbage.
 
@tristan re-reading that Steve Yegge thing and it all seems to boil down to: Google employs super-smart people, has lazy timescales and has essentially infinite cash to reward the ones who produce the most, and (unsurprisingly) that works. When he says that waterfall and cowboy are not the only alternatives to agile, I agree, but when he proposes Google's setup as a viable alternative for anyone other than a company that generates billions then that's just dumb.
 
@Morgan what's wrong with it?
 
3:10 PM
Automating it has a cost in false positives though. This is a scenario where 99% of people should be acting in good faith. If 1% of good-faith actors are stopped by this automation, then it's doing as much harm as good.

If it turns out that the number of bad-faith gold badges is higher... well then you're screwed because the point of empowering gold badges is implied trust.
Sometimes you just have to catch the bad guys.
 
Heh, I was just about to type out that exact scenario.
 
It's like making all drivers use those breathalizers before they start their car.
 
So the real question is: is N+M positive, where N is the marginal gain in utility conferred to moderators that don't have to review suspicious cases, apply subjective judgement, and perform a ban; and M is the marginal loss in utility for good faith users that have a legitimate need to edit in a tag and then hammer based on that tag?
I'm in the latter category, incidentally; once every two weeks or so I see a question that has a dupe, but I can't edit+hammer on my own.
 
Then you SUMMON MARTIJNOR
 
Can we add my personal biases about justice to the equation?
 
3:15 PM
Only if you can tell me the difference between "my personal lived experiences" and "my experiences"
 
If we use my two anecdotes ("I saw a sneaky hammer in the first week of hammering", "every two weeks I see a post I wish I could sneaky hammer") as a benchmark, we can estimate that bad faith sneaky hammers would be about twice as frequent as good faith sneaky hammers.
Both being fairly rare.
 
@Kevin that's more than enough data
 
You can draw a trend line with one point, right? :-P
 
I can draw a bunch
 
You can draw as many as you feel like
That's the nice thing about anecdotes; you get to express your creative light while telling them
 
3:18 PM
@MattDMo I have no idea, but it works now. It kept hanging during boot.
 
Hmm, the point I was working toward was to calculate the actual utility loss/gain of both scenarios, but it's hard to quantify "the inconvenience of not being able to close a thing by yourself when you normally could"
 
I go to a meeting, and come back to quite the discussion of an innocent question I asked.
huzzah
 
moderator utility is easier - just multiply the time it takes to ban someone by the frequency that someone needs to be banned for sneaky hammering.
 
Sorry, I meant Martijnir.
 
@MorganThrapp admit it - it was my magical long-distance powers that fixed it.
 
3:20 PM
i was just wondering what's the implication of not putting a blank line at the end of a file in python
Pycharm's always bugging me
 
There is no implication.
 
For moderator utility I think it ends up being a curve because bans presumably go down over time. You're going to have to integrate.
 
Source control won't say that there's no blank line at the end of this file
 
so @Kevin it's just PEP stuff (Coding convention)
 
@MattDMo I mean, it's the only thing that makes sense.
 
3:22 PM
I doubt that bans will go down over time
 
Arguably, PEP says not to have a newline: "Avoid trailing whitespace anywhere."
 
Because some people will create a new account
 
well, OK, it doesn't say it explicitly.
 
Wait, does it complain about not having a blank line, or does it complain about not having a newline?
Not having a newline at the end of a file is like an age-old error because it technically means the file is ill-formed as a text file. But it's also a uselessly pedantic error.
Not having a blank line at the end of a file is just normal.
 
It complains if there's not a newline at the end of the file.
 
3:23 PM
And SO doesn't have everyone in the world signed up yet, so new people will need to be banned
 
I'd predict an initial drop as mods work through the glut of evil gold badge holders who previously had no way to express their evilness; then a leveling off at a significant nonzero amount as evil users continually join and move up the ladder.
 
@danidee To solve your PyCharm problem, just have PyCharm take care of it for you:

editor -> general -> line feed on save
PyCharm makes your life happier
embrace the PyCharm....love the PyCharm
 
Ian
Now that we are taking about PyCharm... is there anyone ever encounter error when installing numpy? It requires VS 2008 distributable or something..?
 
@idjaw it seems you're a big fan of pycharm
 
My wife is jealous
 
3:26 PM
@Ian that probably visual c++ libraries on windows
 
had the same issue but not with pycharm though
 
don't try to manually compile numpy from source, just use that website's wheel formats
 
oh...guess i'm wrong
 
Ian
@paul23 OK, gonna try that...
 
3:27 PM
and don't blame PyCharm...PyCharm is innocent here. There there PyCharm...there there.
 
Ian
@danidee I was saying that because I always receive error: " No module named 'numpy.distutils._msvccompiler' in numpy.distutils; trying from distutils
error: Unable to find vcvarsall.bat"
 
Ok, hang on, I'm confused now. Does PEP 8 actually say files should end with a newline? I'm browsing through it and I don't see anything yet but this page makes it seem like it states it outright.
 
just open command window where you downloaded the wheel and then pip install numpy-1.10.4+mkl-cp35-cp35m-win32.whl (or whatever version you use - I recommend the once with mkl though)
 
Ian
and when I search, it got something to do with VS 2008 (what!?)
 
@Kevin i was about getting to that because when i hover above the error pycharm says PEP8
 
Ian
3:29 PM
@paul23 sure, will try that
 
Only trouble you have then is that updating numpy is non trivial (easiest I found is to just first uninstall and then install the new wheel).
 
"It says that .py files are to end with a line delimiter.", says the redditor. ctrl-f for "delimiter" in pep8 has one hit, totally unrelated.
ctrl-f for "newline" has one hit, totally unrelated. I'm running out of ideas.
 
Oh and I recommend (still) staying in 32bit territory, quite a few other libraries that do not like python 64bit on windows.
 
is it possible to have to access a variable while it's being evaluated in python a = 5 + 7
 
Ian
@danidee use something like eval?
 
3:32 PM
not really accessing a but the memory location where 5 + 7 will be evaluated before it is tagged to a
 
Ian
@paul23 will the 32-bit libraries work in 64-bit machine?
 
@Ian of course - so long as you also use python 32bit. - Which is actually the default download for windows.
 
i'm not an assembly programmer but i know that's possible because you MOV values into memory locations
 
guys, working on things without open source repos is super annoying
 
Ian
@paul23 how do we check our Python 32-bit/64-bit? (I forgot which version I downloaded that time)
 
3:36 PM
sys.version
 
@danidee No but you can get the address afterwards with id(a)
 
Shows something like: [MSC v.1900 32 bit (Intel)] (for python 3.5 32 bit)
 
Ian
great, it is 32 bit
 
@Kevin i know it's not really possible to access it from the front-end (that's what i call normal python code sometimes) or with pdb (pdb only steps through line by line) but at the back-end (hacking the interpreter or some C magic) isn't it possible
i might sound a little delusional....but my question has an origin :)
 
@Ian read this for an explanation. However, just use Gohlke's repo if possible for modules that require compilation, like numpy, scipy, Cython, pandas, etc. They all work with the python.org version of Python, but aren't guaranteed with Anaconda etc. But, if you're using Anaconda you can just do conda install ... to get what you want, generally...
 
Ian
3:45 PM
@MattDMo I was looking at that post too, still cannot really figure out my issue. But I am going to try again...
OK, this was where I stopped:
pip : The term 'pip' is not recognized as the name of a cmdlet, function, script file, or operable program. Check the
spelling of the name, or if a path was included, verify that the path is correct and try again.
At line:1 char:1
+ pip install D:\Resources\Python\numpy-1.10.4+mkl-cp35-cp35m-win32.whl
+ ~~~
+ CategoryInfo : ObjectNotFound: (pip:String) [], CommandNotFoundException
+ FullyQualifiedErrorId : CommandNotFoundException
 
pip isn't on your path, fix your path
 
Ian
I did some research on it, it has something to do with PATH settings
but How do we add? lool where our pip is? but I can't find pip.py, only easy_install.py
 
honestly, setting up someone else's Windows machine is the least fun thing to do in this chat room.
you'll be better off switching to Linux
 
Ian
@davidism true... Windows... -.-' sorry about that..
 
you didn't install pip if you can't find it. install pip
 
3:50 PM
I'm pretty sure you can just launch the installer again and add pip, without having to uninstall and reinstall python.
 
Make sure you have PYTHONDIR\ as well as PYTHONDIR\Scripts\ added to your path variable
with PYTHONDIR the location where python is installed
pip resides in the \Scripts\ directory
 
create a virtualenv, pip will be installed
 
@danidee To get pedantic for a second, you can't answer any question of the form "is there a way in Python to do..." with "alter the source code of the interpreter in such-and-such way" because then you're limiting yourself to a single implementation of Python (probably CPython). That answer won't apply to Jython or Pypy or IronPython etc etc.
 
But really pip is installed with python (3 and newer), and the installer typically takes care of the path variable (at least if you tell it to do so & install for all users instead of the current user only).
 
Ian
@paul23 GOD! you are right! my path only has PYTHONDIR\ let me add \scripts as well
 
3:52 PM
scripts should not be part of the path, that doesn't even make sense thinking of wrong path
 
Python the language is conceptually distinct from the executables you can put on your machine that call themselves Python. Theoretically you could write an implementation of Python that has no conception of "memory" at all.
 
Ian
@davidism pardon?
 
@davidism Does - otherwise you can't use pip.exe
And actually the installer does it too.
 
@Ian @paul23 if you'd like to continue this, can you take it to a room for you two to work it out, it's just dragging on at this point
 
Ian
@davidism no, no, it should be enough...
 
3:54 PM
get a room you two :P
 
Ian
@paul23 thanks for your help paul
@idjaw that sounds... suggestive
 
So that's why you can't manipulate memory on the front end; because from the front end, you don't know if you're running CPython, which has memory, Or KevinPython, which executes on a five dimensional substrate of colorless green ideas and sentient beehives.
 
Ian
@davidism voted, both
 
(removed that one, it's probably a dupe)
 
3:56 PM
@Kevin thanks for your explanation
 
Ian
@paul23 got it installed. Thanks.
 
Ok I'm taking my pedant hat off now. Interpreting your question as "In CPython, can I find the memory address of the expression 5+7?" is tricky because the parser has the right to perform optimizations that transform the AST in a way that "5+7" no longer meaningfully exists.
Example:
>>> def a():
...     x = 5 + 7
...
>>> import dis
>>> dis.dis(a)
  2           0 LOAD_CONST               3 (12)
              3 STORE_FAST               0 (x)
              6 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
              9 RETURN_VALUE
 
Here, 5 and 7 are never referenced, and addition never takes place. The parser erased "5+7" from the program and replaced it with "12" before the byte code reached its final state.
You can get the address of the interned integer value for "12" if you want, though. In CPython it's guaranteed to have a stable spot in memory; one instance of 12 will be referentially equal to every other instance of 12.
 
4:01 PM
> Granting JIRA too much memory can impact performance negatively.
Good job, JIRA.
 
I suspect you could also use the inspect module to examine the byte code instructions that make up the function, so you could get a reference to LOAD CONST 3 if you wanted... I'm not sure if calling id on that would give you anything meaningful though.
Like, I don't know if you could use an external process to POKE into Python's process at that spot in memory and actually change the behavior of the function.
 
@MorganThrapp this is why JIRA and I have trust issues.
 
@Programmer I've only used it once, but it has been decided that we're going to start using it to track one client's tickets, and I have ended up in charge of it.
 
I actually have no knowledge of JIRA :p
I do feel for you on this, "We want this, you learn this" instead of considering all implications
 
4:08 PM
@Kevin you can check it earlier I suppose - ast.dump(ast.parse('def a(): x = 5 + 7')) - then extract the Num nodes... but all depends what the purpose is I guess
 
DSM
We use JIRA here. Mixed reviews from me, but there are some things it works okay on.
 
yeah, we use JIRA as well.
 
DSM
Morning cabbage, by the way. Slept in today so am only arriving at the office now.
 
I do like some of the workflow features. Being able to do super finely-grained ticket/time tracking is nice.
 
also mixed feelings about it. Personally, I'd just like to have trello and github nicely integrated and just not use jira
 
4:09 PM
@JonClements Good idea :-)
 
Honestly, we're more doing it for the time tracking, because this client is costing us oodles of time/money, and we want to figure out how much so we can charge them more.
 
ew.
 
@MorganThrapp that's probably Java rather than Jira - go do some JVM tuning :)
 
DSM
One ongoing problem with my current firm is that the Powers that Be under-bid to get the contracts. This leads to.. difficulties. :-/
 
@RobertGrant Huh. Yeah, I know almost nothing about the JVM, so this is going to be a fun experiment.
 
4:11 PM
It's actually pretty interesting
But very specific
Use the jvisualvm tool that comes free with Java to see what's happening with memory inside the JVM.
 
@Ian so are you all set now?
 
Small tip: don't tightly tie your time tracking to your billing, or you'll end up only tracking the hours you're allowed to bill
 
Oh yeah, this is just a rough estimate kinda thing. We don't bill them hourly, we just need some sort of number.
Specifically, in a way where we can show them that they actually are unreasonable. :P
 
Just bear it in mind when an MBA says "Wait - maybe we could do this for all the projects!"
 
I would be worried, but we just fired our MBA a month or two ago. :P
 
4:16 PM
Wow, how did you do that?
 
Robert takes out a note book
 
Well, he didn't actually do MBA things, he was in charge of our websites. He just took any possible opportunity to remind people that he had an MBA.
 
@QuestionC you said you wanted more of that trailer music, found it
 
Thank you. I was listening to the Myst 4 soundtrack all afternoon because of that trailer.
 
it's an album by the Myst composer, pretty good
 
Ian
4:30 PM
@MattDMo yes, more or less. Still got trouble with setup tools now cannot be upgraded. But numpy is installed.
 
@Ian want to chat more about it? I've created a new room if you want.
 
ok, this is going to be fun. I've let myself get dragged into a discussion on the internet
 
Ian
@MattDMo hi, thanks, I appreciate your concern... it should be OK for now... but you are right, next time I have problem. I will just use the chat room and invite some people from here
 
Now I have to try to explain how computers typically solve finite element analysis, to strengthen my argument. To people without any knowledge of linear algebra nor any understanding of the basic difference between a GPU and a CPU.
 
4:35 PM
OK, no prob. Good luck, and remember - Linux is always waiting, and VMs are great these days!
 
Ian
#linuxisalwayswaiting
great tag... ;)
 
@AnttiHaapala I can't seem to edit the tag, probably because I voted, but I don't know why PyCharm is tagged in there.
 
DSM
True that. As the kids used to say. Long ago. But really, I've been astonished at how small the penalty is. There was even one code I had which ran faster under a linux VM than under native windows (I suspect due to memory access patterns I was too lazy to track down, but still.)
 
@idjaw "using pycharm as the ide"
if one cannot find out where an indentation error is in pycharm then ...
lost cause
 
@AnttiHaapala Agreed.
 
4:38 PM
now there is some "code"
 
@AnttiHaapala resists urge to post "never gonna give you up"
 
has anyone experimented with executing stories in a "war room"? We are experimenting with choosing one story a sprint to do this, and wanted to get thoughts/experiences. I'm getting mixed feelings about it as we are in our third trial.
 
@JonClements I flagged this, but since it keeps happening, would you mind investigating the multiple "KimFake" accounts that keep posting terrible questions. Obviously trying to avoid a ban.
 
user559633
@idjaw executing stories as in "enter the room and don't leave until it's done?"
 
4:49 PM
@tristan yes. More specifically, as much of it as possible in the one day allocated.
 
That sounds terrifying interesting.
 
user559633
terrible if it's anything complex or time consuming because then you're just doing your regular job but in a more uncomfortable setup with ~~omg so serious~~ sprinkled on top
 
user559633
as for doing "spikes" (where you just do as much as you can in a top box) or "swarms" (where you throw as many people as you have at a problem until it's done), sure, those have their place
 
Never heard of a spike.
 
DSM
Hey, I just noticed: new tree-stand avatar!
 
4:51 PM
Right now the issues I'm having are, focus is horrible, because everyone is in different focus states, and we go off-topic a lot. Also, one person has been on the computer for the whole day. Which I think is the big problem. If we continue this I would probably think it would be interesting to cycle through people.
 
user559633
Sounds like you need a better leader.
 
user559633
@DSM :)
 
Yeah I just realized that the python doesn't have a wig...
 
user559633
if someone could photoshop on the keen helmet, i'd appreciate it
 
@davidism Sorted
 
4:52 PM
I think, now that I know what they're called, doing spikes is one of my favourite tasks.
 
Who needs photoshop when you can use MS Paint?
 
You needs MS Paint when you can paint onto the screen?
 
I used paint.net a lot when I was on windows
that did the trick nicely
 
@JonClements thanks
 
Can CUDA be used to solve any matrix equation btw? So that -say- I can send my very large (billions of terms, most are zeros) matrix to the GPU to let it solve?
 
user559633
4:54 PM
@idjaw the "war room" works best for when there's a existing code that needs debugging.
 
@tristan what about an existing code base where you are adding features to? Rather than a very new project
 
user559633
the point of the war room is more communication and physical segregation from the rest of the team so you can go "head's down" with a focused team of people that know what the fuck they're doing
 
yes, exactly .
So we have the break down done already
 
user559633
if you're adding new features, that's just normal story work.
 
But smellier.
 
user559633
4:55 PM
sit at your desk where you have your keyboard/monitors/stuff where you want them
 
going in to the war room we have already broken everything down in to subtasks
so it's a matter of just "doing it".
 
user559633
yeah, that's what "stories" are in agile.
 
</shialabeouf>
 
user559633
that's like...as normal work as you can get in your environment with the project management structure you have in place
 
user559633
4:58 PM
it bothers me a little that this makes me feel pressured about not doing what i actually want to be doing
 
then it is working exactly as planned.
 

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