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8:00 AM
slow down
that sounds like integration by parts where you end up going around in a loop lol
look at what is coming and what needs to go out
those double scope resolution operators are really weird.. does it have to be that way?
is the inner code something you HAVE to go by?
the switch?
what are they asking you to write the code for? what is the task you need to accomplish?
is that messy switch code that was you ended up with?
well why do you have to resolve scope like that?
switch( FuncInfo::getFuncGroup(func_id_) ) is an inner statement
right?
well how can FuncInfo::getFuncGroup(func_id_) be resolved differently? can you add that info to the calling parameters by value?
that would be a lot easier to understand, and you would have the value concretized
i would like to see that in the form switch(switchFunctionID) where switchFunctionID is a nice clean integer
just a thought
by frame do you mean stack frame?
literally?
ok
unfortunately that may be the way you have to do it, but i think it means that you are forcing yourself to work at a level which is at the upper limits of a human being's ability to understand nested 'things'
do you have a white board and a marker?
 
user69820
8:22 AM
@Quinn1000 i think I am at the upper limits of understanding this conversation
 
that's where you are going to have to solve your problem. you are going to have to benchtest it.
how can the computer understand it if you can't?
:-) i've gotten into that situation a few times, and the answer is always 'make it simpler'
 
:lol:
 
user69820
@OlegKuznetsov is that article for or against UML?
 
Hi, Dan! :)
@oraclecertifiedprofessional ;)
 
8:27 AM
hello
 
lol someone give me a link to computer that can take UML as input
 
UML is for humans
Think like a computer. That's always the right answer.
 
user69820
i think what we really need is a tool that generates UML from code
 
user69820
that would be easier
 
8:28 AM
:-) ME!
 
user69820
would it, for example, generate a sequence diagram from a C++ switch?
 
i'm the one that can tell you how cruel you are being to your target processor :-)
thank my professors for that
 
user69820
/me thinks @Quinn1000 likes UML
 
i HATE uml
 
user69820
8:30 AM
/me thinks he says he hates it so he looks cool
 
it is so different from actual microcode it makes me want to go and literally hurt UML if it wasn't so abstract!
 
i am one of the people who knows that is cool to not be cool
 
@oraclecertifiedprofessional I hate CASE tools in general :P
@DanGrossman lol
 
I will now be communicating entirely in sequence diagrams
 
8:32 AM
i am not on the cutting edge.. i wish we could all program in assembly
 
@DanGrossman lol ... +1 for your quick flow
 
then we would actually know what we are doing :-)
 
What do you mean could?
 
user69820
@DanGrossman i like the fact that tool generates diagrams that look like they are XKCD cartoons
 
replace could with were
 
8:33 AM
maybe the XKCD guys are using the same program to generate their cartoons
 
i wish we were all programing in assembly
 
user69820
@Quinn1000 at school?
 
meh, then we'd all be sitting on unix consoles still
 
yes
but i am an older student who was 'out there' for years
 
it'd simply be beyond the limits of the human mind, and time, to create the truly complex GUIs we have now
 
8:34 AM
best programming i've seen? the assembly language progrramming in my M1A1 tank while I was in the Army!
never failed once
 
dont think that code has changed in over a decade either
 
because it was right
 
user69820
you were driving a tank and you took the time to read the source?
 
i was gunning
and yeah, we had nothing but learning the systems year after year
 
user69820
/edit you were shooting things with cannon and you took the time to read the source?
 
8:37 AM
that was the job :-)
you knew everything you could learn
that was why i read Dr. Dobbs every month when i was in
 
user69820
i think you play too much Call of Duty and now you think it's real life
 
user69820
lol
 
lol.. saw it at best buy but never played it
looks slick
 
you're playing it right now
 
what? you want to ask me a question about M1A1's? go ahead
 
8:39 AM
we don't really exist
this conversation is a figment of your imagination
 
look, honestly my guilt right now is about the 1000's of gallons of JP8 we burned up just screwing around
 
and God forgive us for oour body count.. but that has nothing to do with the fact that our computers were seriously on target
 
yes, well, it's a fairly simple program ;)
 
user69820
i think he's having a flashback to 'Nam
 
8:43 AM
the only issue i ever had was due to my coax mount being screwed up. I think out of maybe 300 main gun rounds i missed like 3 times
 
How many inputs are involved in calculating a proctile trajectory? A 4-word uncommon Google search involves touching 30 gigabytes of data to produce the result page.
 
user69820
what was that film where those kids built a spaceship with a C64 as the computer?
 
my last gunnery qual my coax was going wild but that was a metal fatigue issue.. the BCU?
never missed
why can't all computers be that accurate? the only answer i have is simply the programming
 
user69820
wouldn't that computer have a single feature set to program?
 
user69820
i mean you wouldn't have to worry about DirectX versions
 
8:46 AM
All computers are that accurate
 
user69820
for example
 
true.. there was o updating that i ever saw
no
except when they came out with new main gun rounds
(MPAT etc)
 
When I aim my plasma rifle at the head of the enemy on instagib mode, and shoot, the enemy always dies. My computer is just as accurate as your tank's computer.
 
user69820
have you got one of those USB missile launchers on your desktop?
 
your computer doesn't exist n the real world
 
user69820
8:47 AM
they're pretty accurate
 
i mean, you don't have to input real world wind/humidity etc
 
vehicle speed, cant
 
Our games have many, many more inputs than your tank program takes
 
well those variables are much less predictable IRL than in a game
so you can't fake them
 
8:48 AM
it's still a simple program, which is why it can be written by hand in assembly
 
user69820
like if you have a family of racoons living in the barrel? that never happens in a game
 
like they do in most games.. i mean .. even in the newest MOH.. is there ANY variable involving humidity or alitude or current crosswind?
there may be, i'm just asking
 
The program that determines what happens to that bullet at each time slice is calculating millions of intersections; your tank has to calculate nothing after it shoots
The game is determining bounding boxes of millions of polygons, calculating line-plane intersections with these boxes, all integrated over time
 
you have to understand, we had all this stuff we had to enter into the computer, but even then after we had a 'boresight' we would often do an mrs update which involved having radiocative shit in the form of a crosshair on that weird looking ring at the end of our guntube
we could do an MRS update every time we could bring the tank to a halt of 0 kmh to make sure we were shooting straight
 
from a programming standpoint, the tank is a toy... the program is so simple you can actually make it verifiably correct
you're talking about lots of human things that create stupidly simple inputs to a basic program
 
8:53 AM
exactly, but it was always right! when i hit my thumb switches to trigger the LRF and set my gun's superelevation and lead, and then pull the triggers, then the round would always hit. It was a perfect system.
 
it's like the space shuttle software... they run it on what you can barely call a computer... they cant even pause its output to display status messages to the astronauts, they just learn to read the repeating text scrolling by... and they don't change it because if the programs were actually complex they wouldn't be simple enough to prove on paper
what do you expect?! if you solve an equation with 5 variables on the chalkboard you'll always get the right answer too, omg perfect equation!
 
right, but we saw that happening with perfect execution on a continuous basis
 
user69820
sometimes in left 4 dead i have quite clearly shot a zombie but seconds later it's still there twatting me in the face
 
i defy you to find one gunner or tc (who isn't lying) who ever claimed that the computer in his tank ever lied or made an incorrect computation
it just never happens
 
facepalms
 
8:55 AM
it is that kind of perfection that i expect in programming
 
Of course it never makes an incorrect computation, it's a trivially simple system running on a computer... WHY WOULD IT EVER BE INCORRECT?
 
so why can't we accomplish that level of precision in the rest of programming?
 
You can only have that in trivial systems, computer science 101, once you have a couple thousand lines of code you end up with more states than you can ever test in all the lifetime of the universe
 
who is pushing us so hard that we can't get it right?
and to what end?
you're saying that's a trivial solution but you have to understand that it isn't. you think that the inputs are some kind of nice discrete answers but they aren't.
the inputs are very 'analog'
they are very difficult inputs to reconcile, and for you to say that they are trivial is just ignorant.
 
They're being reconciled by handwritten ASSEMBLY? Then the reconciliation process is a trivial formula, by definition
 
8:59 AM
a tank moving along a real world road involves ossicialtion like you can't even model with the best mathematics. And it's target is moving along equally improbable terrains. You think we have ncie sweet flat conrete to move along?
 
No, yet you're clearly modeling it with something very simple
 
Yeah, that's why the software governing a tank takes years and hundreds of thousands of manhours to create, because it's damned hard.
Because it has to match real wrold conditions, 100%of the time, with pretty much zero error
 
user69820
they should have created the code from the UML diagrams
 
lol
i don't know how they did it. FWIL they were the same guys using the same methods as the SR-71
brilliant engineers using hand-coded algos
 
user69820
well as long as it wasn't the same methods as the ZX81
 
9:03 AM
the ultimate benchtesters who got the code right before they ever coded it :-)
f**king scary smart
 
user69820
does a tank's computer system count as embedded?
 
If they're writing it in assembly, they're using some kind of simplistic model. I highly doubt they're doing, say, the Lucas-Kanade Optical Flow method for modeling the tank movement through imaging, or a Kalman filter to probabilistically model the terrain based on inference in a linear dynamic system... these are what nontrivial software do, and doing that kind of math in ASSEMBLY by hand would take a lifetime
yes
 
no, kid, they just wrote a ton of code
they hand wrote something like 800,000 lines of code for the BCU
seriously
manually
 
user69820
if it is embedded, is there a linux distro you could install on it?
 
user69820
tankux
 
9:09 AM
Ubuntu Tank Edition
 
they payed a bunch of brilliant programmers to spend years upon years figuring out how to take in the data from the given sensors and then move the turret azimuth and elevation into the correct position SUCH THAT when 'me' as the gunner was properly moving the Cadillacs in such a way as to have the laser generated reticle staying on COM of a target that when I got the 'Fire!' command from my TC then when I pulled the trigger then the round would strike the taget
 
user69820
panzix
 
i can't espouse how much more respect i have for those programmers
 
user69820
so @tina how are you getting on?
 
they got it exactly right
why can't we always get it exactly right as programmers?
 
9:11 AM
You can't prove they got it exactly right
 
user69820
plus it would take the fun out of debugging
 
There could be hundreds of lines of dead code; that in practice you always hit your target doesn't mean there aren't bugs
 
why do we have to ship before it's right?
why can't they wait?
 
user69820
is friendly fire a bug?
 
Because you can never prove it's right
 
9:13 AM
no, it defines the limit
yet another case of the boss trying to overreach the abilitites of a system
 
In any sufficiently complex program, it's impossible to prove the program is correct, so at some point you have to simply decide it's tested enough to release
 
user69820
"a game is never finished - it's abandoned" - some game programming guy
 
friendly fire with tanks and for instance, apaches and A-10's, was where the commanders saw how far their platforms could effectively engage
(a platform is like a tank or a plane)
 
user69820
i was only joking about the friendly fire bug
 
and then the commanders would say 'well, these guys in the tank can engage up to 2000 meters'
so the commanders would say.. well, go to 2500
however, at 500, the thermals would drop off the turret on a Bradley
it was cooler
so the tank gunner would only see the hull.. and the hull of a Brad would look like an Iragi APC
 
9:17 AM
@oraclecertifiedprofessional I think you were right about the flashback
 
so he would be like 'I don't want to shoot' and the Col would be like "Shoot'
and then there would be an friendly fire
now, you say WTF?
 
user69820
@DanGrossman do you think he's sitting in the livingroom wearing his combats with his face blackened?
 
Quite possibly
 
no, i'm not m8
 
I'm not sure he even realizes he's in a SO chat room
 
9:18 AM
i jsut want all of you blokes who play games to understnd what it is to do thiat kind of thing IRL
 
user69820
@Quinn1000 orders is orders i suppose
 
oh well
oh don't go there. just please understand that you are pretending to program computers, and if ou do then please understand how important your programming may be
 
user69820
@Quinn1000 us civvies can't understand the hell of war really, it's true
 
In computability theory, Rice's theorem states that, for any non-trivial property of partial functions, there is no general and effective method to decide whether an algorithm computes a partial function with that property. Here, a property of partial functions is called trivial if it holds for all partial computable functions or for none, and an effective decision method is called general if it decides correctly for every algorithm. The theorem is named after Henry Gordon Rice, and is also known as the Rice-Myhill-Shapiro theorem after Rice, John Myhill, and Norman Shapiro. Introduction ...
 
i never wanted to put that vet thing out, i just want you guys and gals to know that programmers have more influence on people than perhaps any other job
you are the people that govern what happens to all of us, so please be careful with the Objects that you deal with, because each of your Objects will probably be a Person
 
9:21 AM
I'm pretty sure we won't accidentally stumble into programming the software for a tank
 
user69820
in soviet russia, TANK PROGRAMS YOU
 
a lot of us have been bled and broken in ways that i hope you'll never have to know, so that people can program software to give us more life and we can all have 3D TV and smartphones and IMAX. We love you you for programming, that's all.
 
God, I hope 3D TVs are gone next year.
 
Keep on keeping on.
 
Worst idea ever.
 
9:23 AM
I hope we have the no-goggles TV's
soon
 
user69820
holograms
 
user69820
like on star wars
 
yes!
 
Holograms are fine. This fake 3D stuff is dangerous.
 
user69820
instead of video conference
 
9:24 AM
@oraclecertifiedprofessional VR! VR!
 
user69820
@OlegKuznetsov pardon?
 
keep pushing tech, because no-tech really sucks!
btw watch that NatGeo thing with Sebastion Junger next week!
 
In Japan, thousands of people pay to attend concerts of a holographic rock star whose voice is entirely synthetic.
 
and then send some Nice Things to our troops!
 
user69820
this all comes from a programmer that just watched Wierd Science
 
9:26 AM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
idoru!
 
@oraclecertifiedprofessional Virtual Reality
 
@Quinn1000 Are we there now?
 
lol go and read some William Gibson
 
user69820
@OlegKuznetsov ah, we had that already when we had robot vacuum cleaners
 
start with Neuromancer (cyberspace) and then you'll see where things are going before they get there
 
9:27 AM
Robot vacuum cleaners, mops, pool cleaners and gutter cleaners. The iRobot family has grown.
 
user69820
I wonder if there's an Ubuntu Vacuum edition?
 
damned shame you have to be on a weaopns platform to see what is coming, but i guess it makes since that you have to spend years looking through a 10x thermal sight at the woods to see what is down the road
 
I wrote software for the Roomba vacuums to communicate with each other and collaborate. I made them smarter for an AI course project.
 
Dan you are at the point of the learning spear then :-)
 
user69820
careful. they'll learn and decide to destroy all humans to save all humans
 
9:29 AM
Attach a machine gun to them and send 'em off to war?
 
user69820
and then we'll have to play tic tac toe with them to stop them
 
anyway, i'll plug my own site then... trying to simmulate endangered animals that we can simulate after they are extinct
 
least we can do :-)
sweet.. my first iterations look like that.
 
Your first iterations of what look like grids with green blobs?
 
9:31 AM
my apex predator has a nice open grid the can just search and eat
 
Have you played Spore?
 
i studied it.. nice work
 
Any one knows LabVIEW
 
my goal is 'continuous ops' for a given anmal
with hot-swappable code
so in other words keep adding complexity until the animal doesn't know it isnt an animal
although i'd rather do it from ia-32 MASM up to HLA
now, a lot of people will say that I sound like the Forrest Gump of programmers... but i say...
simple is as simple does
i say, if we can't even program a simple Malaysian Tiger down to the nTh degree of accuracy, then what are even claiming to be progammers for?
3
if we can't do a simple thing like that, then what is the point?
 
I have never heard something so absurd
Good night Quinn
 
9:42 AM
nn Lt Dan
you kinda played right into that one
:-)
 
You think you can replicate God in a program, you're insane
 
i'd never even go there :-)
i'll only ever go with what God gave us
i hope you'll see what i am trying to do and maybe you'll see how you can help me :-)
Lt. Dan
I think everyone would find it pleasurable to be able to drop down on a nice cool hunk of ice and be right next to a Polar Bear and watch that bear go about his business, especially after there aren't any more more Polar Bears.
Because there isn't any more any more ice up there.
And of course, when there isn't any more polar ice, then there won't be any more Polar Bears, unless we virtualize them, of course.
I think there ain't any good reason to be a programmer if it isn't to keep something alive that won't be alive, when we could keep it alive.
But that's just my opinion.
I'm making a new website at codeanimals.com and I am going to do it from scratch, rather than using any kind of CMS or anything. I think I will just write each page like a txt file.
I don't if people will notice it, but I have to go to Church every Sunday and the man at Church keeps asking us what we are doing to make things better, so I think that this will be one thing that will make things better :-)
It's fun talking like Forrest Gump
how are you doing Ms. Tina?
 

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