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8 hours later…
Cow
Cow
08:06
I have another Moderator complaint. Our autoflags were declined for this
While it might not look as spam, moderator should know that, there's been at least 57 spam reports from this user the last year alone.
Also I dont really appreciate the lecture on what is spam. I am fully aware after almost 10K helpful spam flags.
Just two hours before the report here on SO the same user spammed on English SE
08:45
@Cow flagging that as spam is indeed incorrect
Cow
Cow
why?
We have it blacklisted exactly to have it autoflagged
3 months ago there was a spam wave from this user
You can see it in the search
You can't assume that all moderators are also Charcoal / Metasmoke members
I, for one, am not, although I'm aware of what the work groups do
Cow
Cow
No that I understand and I only just realized based on who closed the question
But I guarantee this is spam, speakatoo has been spammed a ton lately
The only correct way to flag those posts is to use a custom mod flag and explain what the user history is
Unless the post does contain actual spam, clearly
Cow
Cow
but why would Makyen have autoflagging capabilities made if they're not to be used?
I cannot wait to see what his answer is to this, we should remove the blacklist if it's not suppose to be automatically removed
they also declined the flag for SmokeDetector which is not really a good idea
anyways I might be wrong, I'll gladly admit that if it's the case
But until @Makyen reads this, I wont remove the blacklist for speakatoo
08:56
As with all automated moderation, there's a risk of encountering false positives or simply posts that require knowing a history. Using auto-flags is your choice. If you do, you should be aware that it might not always pan out as you had imagined. Like in this case, when the post doesn't get auto-nuked before a moderator who doesn't participate in Metasmoke gets to it.
Cow
Cow
@blackgreen No I totally agree with you, don't get me wrong, but IT IS spam in this case.
The post is clearly not spam, unless you are aware of the previous history
that's the whole point
Cow
Cow
That on the other hand is an excellent argument.
and that previous history cannot be communicated with automatic spam flags, which can't carry additional text and are indistinguishable from manually raised spam flags
Cow
Cow
No that's correct, it cannot be communicated, but then I'm not sure what the solution should be
08:59
Raise a custom flag and explain the issue.
Cow
Cow
other than what you've already suggested, raising mod flags
then I don't know, other than hoping that the post gets dealt with before your de-contextualized spam flags are seen by a user randomly picked from this list
Cow
Cow
I looked into the keyword on MS and it's only watched by tripleee. The reason it got autoflagged is because of the username is blacklisted John Wick and speakatoo both in title and in the body + the user was already blacklisted from posting on English SE 2 hours prior
I guess I can remove the blacklist for the username and change it to a watched username, but I kinda want to wait until later
@blackgreen thank you for taking the time to explain the situation, I must admit I agree with you on almost all your points.
I'm not disputing why the post was auto-flagged, nor I'm suggesting to do anything about that particular user being blacklisted. I'm only pointing out that you can't really complain if a spam flag that requires knowing prior history or having access to external privileged information for it to be handled effectively gets declined.
Cow
Cow
No I agree now, sorry for the complaint, this definitely will require some history context
 
1 hour later…
10:31
Previously, a mod agreed with me that answers that suggest deleting the .htaccess file are dangerous. So, should this one be deleted?
It's currently in LQA review but I'm not sure that's the proper place/way to handle it.
 
3 hours later…
@blackgreen A post is still spam regardless of whether you know the history. You might not know it’s spam, that doesn’t make it not actually spam
14:08
@Starship-OnDiscussionsStrike It does for the spam flag. If the spam is not obvious, it should be raised as a modflag. How exactly do you expect mods to figure out whether the spam flag is valid or not if you've chosen to refuse to give them the knowledge and understanding?
Or do you suggest all spam flags will always be accepted on blind fate? It'd be interesting how that faces off with somebody spam flagging each of your posts and getting them deleted.
14:43
No, of course they shouldn’t be blindly accepted…then it’s just called letting everyone 1 flag nuke spam….
Right, therefore when a moderator reviews a spam flag on something that doesn't look like spam unless you know its history, they shouldn't jump to conclusion that it's valid?
Or where does that leave us?
@VLAZ they should look if the user and the website has been previously spammed before declining, maybe see if there’s any comments about the post in Charcoal
Cow
Cow
15:05
@Starship-OnDiscussionsStrike Yeah but as Blackgreen wrote, not everyone knows about Charcoal :-)
@Cow I kinda expect any mod to know about charcoal (even they don’t visit it often and don’t participate in it)
@Cow An organization with the goal of deleting (bad) posts on your site is a thing that that sites mods should be aware of
Cow
Cow
@Starship-OnDiscussionsStrike I would've expected them to know also, that was actually one of the reasons I wrote here, but I also understand that Charcoal is voluntary and not everyone know about it or have an interest in the subject. It is what it is.
@Cow I didn’t say everyone. Mods handling spam flags are very few people. And “I know it exists” is much different than “I’m an active member of charcoal”.
15:29
A mod should not be (and is not) required to use a 3rd party tool (or information that exists only in a 3rd party tool) to handle a flag on-site; if you have non-obvious evidence that a post is spam, you should probably include it in a custom mod flag.
...or risk a spam flag being declined, of course
If you'd like this policy to change, you can raise a post on MSE or MSO, and ask all the mods to agree to it, or use the contact us form to notify the company that you think the moderator agreement should be changed
Cow
Cow
15:45
I wish I had the mental capacity to request such a thing. Like: familiarize yourself with Charcoal. In the contract 😊
16:01
@Starship-OnDiscussionsStrike I am unable to understand why require mods to jump through more hoops. Why not just supply the information if you have it? Should mods also check Facebook - maybe somebody posted about it there. There are so many sources of why something would be spam. What is the exact reasoning to require the handling of the flag to be more involved and hide information available to you from the handler?
Feel free to write that up as a feature request on Meta because I am not the one who needs to be convinced here.
I think the mods' mode has put the moo in a mood.
@VLAZ because custom flags don’t contribute to the autonuking
OK, let me know when that becomes a network-threatening issue. Custom flagging on the rare cases where spam isn't obvious doesn't seem to be a problem right now.
@VLAZ Depends how you define rare caes
Is an AI generated answer with a spam link inserted obvious spam or not
From experience. The cases where you need a lot of information to recognise something is spam. Those are rare.
16:06
How about a user who post the same answer linking to their blog 20 times in a few hours
That would require knowing that about a lot of posts, right? Is that a lot of information to
@Starship-OnDiscussionsStrike extremely rare. Now answer me this - why can't handling this wait for five minutes? Or an hour?
Is this a threat to the network?
Like, not "it happens and has to be handled when it does" - is it threatening the whole network or even at least one site if it is not nuked immediately?
Spam is bad and should be removed as soon as possible @VLAZ the more time it spends on the site the more people have to see and interact with it
OK, then meta is this way. Write up the FR.
I'm not interested any more.
I think you might be falling prey to the trap covered by the parable 'the perfect is the enemy of the good'.
But from a purely practical perspective, in this case, a spam flag got declined and that caused the spam to stick around longer, whereas if the post had just been custom flagged with the evidence from Charcoal included in the custom flag explanation, it would've been handled faster
16:16
paradoxically, not flagging this post as spam, but rather as a custom mod flag, would have gotten it handled faster.
@TylerH but not fast enough. Every extra picosecond means 1 terabyte of kittens die. Or something.
Cow
Cow
Delicate subject. I still think it wouldn’t hurt if mods knew about Charcoal. It’s a great tool and there’s a lot of history that could help. 😊
I think all mods know about Charcoal. They just (rightfully) might balk at the idea they should be expected to check/participate in it in order to handle flags
What's on your mind? on Meta Stack Exchange
5
@GeneralGrievance oof, that ad-hoc duplicate chain...
@Slate hi, can you please unonebox this?
16:20
@TylerH sure thing
Thanks
17:04
@TylerH binned--OP provided code in an edit
@TylerH yes but most of the time it’s nuked in minutes before any mod sees it
17:27
@Starship-OnDiscussionsStrike Mod flags survive deletion, even by red flags
@Cow Most mods do know about Charcoal. But to know some of the "tribal knowledge" that Charcoal regulars do would require a fairly large time commitment above and beyond handling flags. That's not a request most mods will be able to keep
Cow
Cow
all right
Here's an example: LongPathTool. It's a well-known spam term, but only if you've hung around Charcoal for years to implicitly know the context
Cow
Cow
I understand
And it's often unlinked in modern spam. You can't expect mods to know all the context surrounding any and all spam terms. Red flags need explicit context or else they're likely to get declined
Cow
Cow
But then it's just kind of a short circuit when autoflags are used. The system knows it's spam and autoflags. No user is online to give the last flag and then it's declined. I know this doesn't mean anything as long as it's not excessively declined for a user, but It makes me sad to see.
I don't know if it makes sense, I'm struggling here
18:08
There's a human element and always has been
18:21
Not About Programming (No Roomba: accepted answer) PHPAGI / Cepstral / Asterisk - License Issue‭ - brianjd‭ 2010-10-16 10:29:38Z
18:37
@Cow Congrats on hitting 3K points!
18:53
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching product name in body (97): Rust debugging in VS Code Windows Aarch64 or Arm64ec‭ by Richard Phillip Klassen‭ on stackoverflow.com
@Machavity Knowing that “spam is reported and dealt with in charcoal hq” is something I hope every mod knows, and that’s all I was saying
Oops I accidentally misclicked and now I’m ignoring @Cow how do I undo that?
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (94): PyCharm loading ssh conda environment takes forever‭ by Al rafi‭ on stackoverflow.com
Cow
Cow
19:11
@CPlus thank you so much! :-)
@Cow Looking forward to closing/reopening stuff?
Cow
Cow
heh yeah I've been at it for a little while
31 so far
Cool
19:31
(it never ends)

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