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00:03
@Björn You don't. Although, you could downvote. Basically, the fact that it's homework shouldn't affect how the question is evaluated with respect to it being on-topic/off-topic or open/closed. Evaluate it as you would any other question. If it's too broad/needs focus then close it as that. If it is unclear/needs details or clarity, then close it as that, etc.
@Björn right, what Makyen said. Basically we don't care about trying to solve the problem; we care about trying to present an acceptable question.
copied and pasted homework will almost always "need more focus" because the assignment will have expected the student to follow multiple steps mechanically, each of which could be asked about separately.
In cases where there really is only one task, it will almost always be a duplicate.
On the other hand, questions that simply don't show an attempt to solve a properly identified, specific problem will generally be fine. They're often better than if an attempt were shown, because the attempt could be so bad that it creates a second question ("what's wrong with the code", vs. "how do I do this thing").
@Björn Questions that post requirements, and then state, "I'm stuck..." without a specific question almost always need more focus.
yes, "I'm stuck" is also an important red flag. to be stuck, there has to be a place that you're stuck
00:20
Yep, all of the above.
Thanks a lot to all of you this was very helpful!
 
2 hours later…
03:07
0
Q: Time to needs to handle [datahandler]

ScransomThe [datahandler] tag is junk, just random things where data needs ~waves hand~ handling. Burn it. Burn it all down.

03:26
Should a question with a pending close vote be used as a known good audit in the CV queue? (It has also been used as an audit in Reopen - not sure when the CV came, though.)
03:40
Cannot close exact duplicate because earlier page doesn't have any upvoted answers. stackoverflow.com/q/75748965/2943403 (I cannot upvote my own answer.)
... I pinged the dev who fixed a related issue that I reported, some time ago, on Meta.
@AdrianMole IMO, it should not be used. What appears to have happened is that it was selected as an audit at 2023-03-15 20:02:22Z and skipped. Someone voted to close a while later. The already selected audit remained as an active, known-good, close-vote audit until you encountered it in the CV queue and passed the audit at 2023-03-16 03:25:02Z with a "Leave Open" response.
From that, I assume that the eligibility of question for being an audit is not checked when presented, but is only checked when the question is selected to be an audit.
The issue is that, once a post is in the audit pool, there seems to be very little that will remove it. Full closure (apparently) now will do that but not a single CV (or two?).
Does it stay in the pool once one audit is presented and not skipped, or does it exit the queue after that (or need to be re-selected)?
@mickmackusa nevermind, I found another dupe
03:47
How could I tell? I didn't skip the audit, and neither did the reviewer who had it in Reopen (is the pool shared between Close and Reopen?).
@AdrianMole I suspect we might be able to know by seeing if the question is used again in the near future as a known-good, CV audit.
I don't know if the pool is shared. The timeline indicates selection as the two audit types was significantly separated in time.
The 'fix' applied in the meta post I linked seems only to act when the question is actually closed. That post is well over a year old, though, so I'm not really expecting Kristina to come back with a quick reply to my comment.
04:14
@mickmackusa I can't even think of a helpful comment.
04:34
Another interesting aspect of that CV queue audit is that I can't find it in the actual CV queue. It has a pending CV (added quite recently, according to @Makyen) but I just searched the queue with the excel-formula tag and couldn't find it. Does the queue consider that I have already reviewed it because of the audit? If so, that would be quite a bizarre bug.
@AdrianMole There is no currently active CV review task for that question.
That's a bit odd, is not?
Yes. The push into the CV queue was, potentially, prevented by the existing audit.
OK. That's not quite as bizarre as my original thought but still a weird bug, though. ;)
... Sorry, but we can't remove this from the audit pool because it's not closed; sorry, but you can't review this in the CV queue to close it because it's in the audit pool.
 
1 hour later…
05:59
@RyanM "classes are initialized on first use". OK, sure, but what about objects? When are global objects initialized? That's what the "static initialization order fiasco" is about in C++.
@KarlKnechtel I'm stuck here. Man, you guys are picky! :-)
I see. Have you tried a crowbar?
06:16
Is this on-topic? Doesn't really strike me as a programming problem (though it may be tangentially related).
The major problem, in my opinion, is that it's too broad. It could be a programming question; it just isn't focused enough to be answerable in our Q&A format.
Meh. Six of one versus half a dozen of the other.
Is there some language or markdown-like interface where a leading // is encouraged? Or is that just borrowed from C and others? I see it so many times in lines of prose by new users.
I've seen it used // as an inline separator // when writing poetry // as long-form text.
I think it has a fancy name in such cases, like caesura.
Hmm.
Is there an especially bad thing we can do for link-only answers where the link is to a Reddit post? ;)
@AdrianMole Based on the whining I hear, downvoting is about the worst thing ever conceived; did you try doing that?
06:30
I went to the linked Reddit post and downvoted that.
Brrr.
@AdrianMole You monster.
 
1 hour later…
07:38
Is this a failed attempt at spamming? Looks like they tried to insert a link.
jps
jps
@JeanneDark yes, they inserted a link, it's just not visible because they used html.
thanks
jps
jps
good find
 
1 hour later…
08:50
stackoverflow.com/questions/75728086 What do we do with "what is the name of <something that doesn't actually exist>?"
(as an aside: I'm a little puzzled as to how this guy hasn't been q-banned yet)
09:24
@KarlKnechtel Honestly, probably an answer with "There is no special name for it" fits. And perhaps more information could be "However, some call it X or Y in <context1> and <context2>". If applicable.
nonono. It's not that there isn't a name for it.
It's that there isn't the thing to name.
The question says "What is the name of the encoding scheme used for files opened in b mode?"; but files thus opened don't use an encoding scheme.
(looks like triple decided that the underlying misconception is covered by duplicates; I can't really disagree)
Is a repeat NAA flag enough for this or should I mod-flag it?
@KarlKnechtel Ah sorry, I misunderstood. But still, I think it's valid to answer (or close as duplicate if the explanation is in another castle duplicate). Thought probably use your judgement on whether the question is a common enough misconception or just one that isn't likely to show up again (essentially a "typo"-like).
 
1 hour later…
10:57
is this opinion based question?
or seek for recommendations
I'd lean towards "too broad".
Also I believe it's based on a misconception. OP says they need to use a DB "as backend" somehow. Which I'm pretty sure is not correct - I suspect they've been asked to use a backend and connect it to a database.
Ah, I missed the end of the question which solicits recommendations.
Hey, i think this is a close enough topic, but let me know if not, I have a question that is not closed but received bad reviews while, I would like to know opinions on what was negative about the question, i can share the question if this is appropriate place to ask
on that last smokey post, not sure if this answer is a spam seed or not but I put a delete vote on it.
@Barreto You might want to find a language specific chat room if you are looking for help with improving your post.
12:12
@NathanOliver ok thanks
12:54
I see an increase of German and French questions since a few months. Did something change there? It used to be the typical "We have a Stack (RU/ES/PT) for that" languages mostly
13:14
is it just me, or does copy+paste suddenly always copy a link to the current page?
@tripleee ... no longer able to repro
14:53
@GeneralGrievance Regarding this post and your comment on it: It is an exact copy/paste (including the "deleted by..." stuff) of an earlier post by the same user. Natty flagged that one as NAA and it was deleted (before the LQA review could complete) by a mod. I agree with Natty on the original so I re-flagged it as NAA. ...
... my previous post in here was about the same. Maybe a custom mod-flag would have been better, as it may not obviously look like NAA.
It's a mess, though, whichever way you look at it. I retracted my NAA and gave it a custom mod flag, instead.
Yeah, probably the best way to handle that. Out of context, it looks like it just needs to be edited out.
@GeneralGrievance It was reposted just 12 minutes after JFF deleted it ... after an attempt to edit and undelete the original. But, looking at the edit on the original, then it does change a lot. The deleted version was just a "me too" but then an answer was edited in. Ideally, the OP should have then mod flagged for un-deletion. My bad, I think, in that case.
... I'll leave it to the di'mond geezers to do with as they see fit. If I have to suffer the outrageous fortune of a slinged decline, then so be it. :(
Is this question on-topic? The (edited) answer makes me wonder
@GeneralGrievance See my edit. I have now come pretty-much full circle on my opinion (other than it's a rubbish post) but have retracted all flags. La vie, c'est comma ca, quelquefois!
15:07
@Adriaan If you consider data flow diagramming a programming topic
It's something a programmer would need to know before writing a program to handle business logic, at least. I don't know if it is technically on-topic, itself, though
@GeneralGrievance FWIW, the original original was just: how do you solve? im have tha same problems thanks
Gotcha, and I guess it was mod-deleted, so it can't just be undeleted. But it's weird that one would copy the original only to change everything except the system message...
Why weird? It's not the correct way to do it but the quickest and easiest - writing a new answer (something they already did) instead of editing the answer (and find the edit button) and then custom flag it (do they even know that option exists?) and wait.
That's what threw me, first time around. I should look more carefully at such posts, in future. Now, all we have to do is get it removed from the LQA queue. I've done my full 20 today, so nothing I can do; but maybe a review-pls ...
... not required! I guess retracting my flag and editing it invalidated the review. :)
Yeah, it was no longer reviewable when I checked the edit link.
15:13
I do have a lame excuse, though. I did that review earlier on today (local time), just before I went off to get married. :-)
... I was somewhat distracted.
@AdrianMole congratulations!
@AdrianMole congrats :-) Why are you on here? Honeymooning on SO, eh
Maybe. We have now submitted a formal "Request to be married" to the local (village) authorities. They send that to the district authorities, who then either knock it back or send it on to the city authority. It's all just crazy paperwork, really.
@JeanneDark Not the new answer part. That makes sense. The copying part I mean. Why copy everything, change the only part you wrote (I'm having a problem too), but leave the system message in?
@JeanneDark They did edit the original. But then, presumably, realized they couldn't un-delete it and got frustrated. I can actually sympathize with a new user not knowing about custom flags for such cases.
15:20
I could imagine that leaving in the system message was a way of trying to communicate with the mod (not sure what they want to communicate, though).
The interesting part was: Normally, the bride and groom go to the office of the Head of the Village. In this case, the Head of the Village came to her brother's house. He and his minions did the paperwork, then stayed on for some food and beer. Hopefully, that's a good sign. :)
@AdrianMole It's even more complicated than getting married
@JeanneDark 50:50 on that one. :)
@AdrianMole Congratulations and fingers crossed.
@Adriaan It looks like a Request for Off-Site Resource.
15:44
@JamesRisner Isn't Vim an IDE?
It's a text editor, broadly. As with most text editors you can use it for programming (I mean it is a functioning IDE too), but that seems like a general Vim question which vi.stackexchange.com probably has an answer for.
Just because it might fit better somewhere else, that in-and-of itself isn't a reason for closure, in my opinion.
@TylerH Until you asked, I never would have considered it an IDE? You mean in the way that vscode or xcode is an IDE?
@TylerH No! From the horse's mouth: Vim is a highly configurable text editor built to make creating and changing any kind of text very efficient. It is included as "vi" with most UNIX systems and with Apple OS X. Vim Home Page
15:51
@IanCampbell Link's good to know. I guess I never though of it as anything but a generic editor. Well, I might be wrong. I used vi before vim exist, and never considered it a "programming tool".
I don't think I've ever even started it myself, but I knew someone who swore by it for their coding needs.
@JamesRisner I mean in the way any IDE is an IDE.
I am not familiar with it personally but I just have never heard of anyone talk about it except programmers
I mean there's the ubiquitous old questions about Vi and Vim on SO
I only use it as a generic editor. I can't imagine using it as a full IDE
fair enough
@TylerH Anyone using Linux, macOS, FreeBSD, NetBSD, or any other un*x would use it for all text editing. Even when no compiler or interpreter is installed in the system.
15:55
I think the key word is "software tools commonly used by programmers". It doesn't say "exclusively" or "primarily". But it's certainly not a hill I'm interested in dying on for this question.
I have no problem placing vim in a "programmer tool" column. I just don't think any of the many people I personally know in real life (a lot of sysadmins who program) would ever consider vim a programmer tool.
@IanCampbell Hasn't the text been changed from commonly to primarily?
Did you click the link? =P (Quick, let me change it to a rick roll video)
Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming.
Text from the close vote popup for "Not about programming" starts with: Use this close reason if the question is not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers.
16:02
Oh, look, it's not internally consistent.
I definitely wouldn't have ever consider vim primarily. It just seems bizarre to me.
Also, help/on-topic is editable by moderators and has a revision history, but I don't think we can see it.
It's commonly used by primary-school programmers.
In any event, I voted to reopen the vim question. Good to know several view it as a programming tool on SO.
@AdrianMole That's nano. Which is a now a programming tool too?
16:06
It's an interesting question though, where do we draw the line? NotePad and TextEdit are commonly used by programmers. I probably wouldn't recommend posting a question on StackOverflow.
if it's a question that a programmer would potentially have when using that tool, why wouldn't it be?
Maybe the complexity of the find+replace capability of the editor?
real primary school programmers write their code in Word and spend the rest of the year figuring out why the video tutorial they were following didn't work when they pasted the code
i used to write code on a legal pad
I still have Post-It notes with code I used to scribble down on my commute before I got a (tiny!) laptop in the late 1990s
16:17
@KevinB Carbon paper + glue for copying and pasting
In the first programming class I ever took back in the early 2000s in Japan, I'm pretty sure we were taught to program in NotePad. Ahhh the good old days.
I'm trying to remember what I was taught in the 90s. I think we were actually using nano? It's been too long. I know I went from Notepad to Notepad++ for other stuff
no, it was pico
What does close flagging even do? It seems to do nothing.
All it does is adds a "Review Close Votes Invalidated" to the history.
And then they age away.
16:34
I guess it adds it to the Close Votes review queue, which currently has 3.8k posts in it.
However, when you get to 3k, it gets replaced by being able to cast close-votes.
@user16217248 It seems like you're reading the Timeline on a post that you flagged. What you're reading is the breakdown of what General Grievance said: Your flag sent the question to the Close Votes queue. After a short period of time of no activity in that queue, it was removed from the queue and your flag aged away. Recommend Closure flags on SO age away quite quickly because of how large the Close Votes review queue is.
@user16217248 Remarkably frustrating, but that's what happens when there are too many questions for not enough curators. Note, however, that the close vote queues are much more functional on other sites, like Software Engineering and Code Review.
Submission for screenshot of the day. The slight Dutch angle adds a psychological uneasiness effect to accompany the error, so you can really feel the problem. Also, there is hint of mystery - what is in the "Cultured Meat" bookmark folder?
If it makes you feel better, many of my close votes age away too.
@VLAZ I tried to wipe the hair off my monitor there for a second. =P
2
16:48
Why do the flags age away after the queue task becomes invalidated, and not immediately after?
@VLAZ 10/10 for cultured meat
None of my close votes age away. Oh, wait...
Machavity doesn't vote anymore. He just commands.
Be silent, mortal! wobbles metal sheet
@user16217248 I believe it's because the logic for when a flag ages away and when a review task is invalidated are completely separate. The review task invalidates early because the review queue is so full, while the close flag ages away on its normal schedule. I do agree that that's not really all too helpful, though.
When I said "Recommend Closure flags on SO age away quite quickly because of how large the Close Votes review queue is", I wasn't exactly accurate. I should have said, "Close Vote review tasks on SO age out and are invalidated quite quickly because of how saturated the queue is"
16:53
Need more reviewers then
The solution should be finding a way to handle the review workload, rather than handling it by not handling it and just throwing them out
@user16217248 Now just to convince SE to do that...
OK, with Staging Ground they sort of try to help there by attempting to prevent questions from being posted with problems which would sent them to the CVQ.
Speaking with some Staging Ground experience: I can immediately prevent the publishing of a question that has a lot of quality problems with a couple clicks, kicking the responsibility of fixing those problems back to the author with an explanatory comment (there's comment templates that you can edit yourself before posting). I've got a fair few "success stories" where a question that would've certainly been closed on the main site was edited by the OP and published, and was scored >3.
I'm not sure how effective SG is, though. I know some of the SG graduated questions still do get closed but that should be mostly for being duplicates. What I don't know is any actual stats for closures.
The SG is great for catching garbage and catching questions that don't have an MCVE, details, etc. Where it falls short is... Well, a couple of places. First, it still takes 3 reviewers to mark (not "Close" as they're trying to keep the "Close" verbiage out of the SG) a question as Off-topic or as a Duplicate (post author can still accept a dupe proposal and insta-close). It would be nice if I could instantly get that well-written close guidance in front of the OP without
requiring 2 other reviewers to help me close it out. Secondly, as was expected, scale: There's a fair few questions currently there that we simply don't really know what to do with. They neither fit the "This is decent enough to publish to the main site" description nor the "I think this could use X changes" description. This kinda sucks for post authors because their question is kinda just in limbo. After 24 hours those DO auto-graduate, but... Yeah.
I kind of chalk that up to a general lack of reviewers. Don't be afraid to volunteer if you want to check the SG out! There's still plenty of room for new Beta testers.
17:18
There’s a lot of questions I just skip because… they’re awful questions that I don’t think can be fixed, but also don’t meet any of the rejection reasons. They’ll auto graduate and be deleted by the roomba
Thus far I’ve only reviewed questions in my tags
Would VLQ flags be appropriate for such questions?
@user16217248 The flags available for us in the SG are just Spam, Rude or Abusive, and mod intervention. All of the other quality control tools that are normally available via flags and voting to close are available in the review UI or fancified comment system that's SG-only.
Most of the time, if you're flagging as Very Low Quality on a question, there's probably a better flag you could be using, such as a recommend close flag (or a close vote, if possible).
There's typically a reason it's low quality. Choosing the right tool/flag for the job and using that option is the best course of action.
The problem where that breaks down on the SG is: You need to choose the specific tool for the job, and sometimes, the tool you want isn't immediately obvious/available.
I think VLQ flag on a question as meaning that the question is beyond repair, for example, is meaningless but not spam or rude or abusive.
The part where you have to guess what the flag means lends credence to the idea that the flag kinda sucks. It's vague and doesn't have a clearly-defined purpose. Machavity's flag dialog redux proposal mentions this a decent bit and his rendition of what the flag should be used for is much more well-defined.
Speaking of flag dialogs and redoing them, I've heard whispers that there's some internal work being done around flags/the flag dialog. Whether that's just the new Plagiarism flag coming out or something more comprehensive is not yet clear, but hey, here's hoping.
17:34
@Spevacus Is the plagiarism flag coming? I must have missed that.
If a question could potentially be edited into an acceptable state in a reasonable amount of time, then close flag. Otherwise, VLQ. Images of code? OP could easily delete the images and paste the real code. Not VLQ. A question flagged as VLQ would be like a word salad of programming words with no real question, or a "How can I make a site like this: example.com" question, and should be clear at a glance why one would flag them as VLQ. Would you agree with this?
@GeneralGrievance They listed their tentative plan awhile ago, but whether it's coming soon is still unclear.
Ah, yes. Then I did read that one.
There was also this one, which I assume you also saw
Yeah, but I'll give it a revisit to jog my memory.
17:44
@user16217248 No, questions should almost never be flagged as VLQ. Either flag with the appropriate close reason or R/A or spam. I'd view the VLQ flag for questions as a weaker R/A flag, e. g. when it's gibberish but you don't assume bad faith and don't want the penalty applied. Very, very rarely have I seen a question that might be sensibly flagged as VLQ, and even then you could still flag as needs details or clarity instead. For questions, the VLQ flag is pretty much useless.
2
@user16217248 The primary thing that a VLQ flag does on a question is push the question into the Triage review queue (and, eventually, to moderators, who will likely decline the flag) where other users are asked to decide what to really do with the question. That just makes more work for other people. It might be a reasonable choice if you can't figure out what the right thing to do is, but it's substantially inferior to performing the action which the question actually needs (close vote/flag, edit, some other type of flag (spam, R/A, custom flag), etc.).
2
(ninja'd) :)
@Makyen So is that the only source for the Triage queue?
@GeneralGrievance As I understand it, each question is run through an algorithm when posted, which gives a "question score" or "Q-score". If that "Q-score" is below a threshold, then it's put into Triage. At least, that's the way it used to work. We don't have any information on the actual algorithm or threshold.
@Makyen ninJeanne'd
3
18:01
OK. I was about to say, that's a lot of VLQ flags.
18:36
Question about a C++ canonical for "named parameters". Based on views/age/votes, this seems like a good choice. It's closed as "Needs Focus" though, which is kind of true as it asks 2 questions. Also, both sub-questions are POB ("why isn't it supported?", and "Will it be supported in the future?").
There are several questions that ask "How to implement named parameters in C++?" (see linked questions from the above question), which is perfectly on-topic. However, they've all been closed as duplicates of the above question.
There should be at least one open question for this, so a) Should the question above be reopened (after editing it to explicitly include the "how-to" aspect?, or b) One of the existing "how-to" questons be used as a canonical, and the rest retargetted?, or c) Retarget all of them to a canonical that I've missed, or d) Something else?
(Minor point in case an RO has objections: the question above was discussed on meta about 7 months ago, but the discussion was deleted at -38 score, so it's probably not an issue.)
I think that meta question was mostly about that user's "trashed" question more than your possible canonical. But good disclosure nonetheless.
Then why does VLQ for questions exist if it's use cases are so limited?
Here's my somewhat informed guess: No one likes VLQ flags but it takes too much developer work to remove them, so they stay.
So people can flag questions as VLQ, get their flags declined and have a reason to complain on MSO (that's also why the flags for closure are hidden behind "Needs improvement").
Haha, or that.
18:47
I guess the reason is that when the flags were devised they had some use cases in ind but lacked the experience that we now have after more than a decade and it turned out that there are almost no uses for VLQ flags for questions.
(Waffles)
But that covers only VLQ flags for answers, not questions
Oops...
Then why are VLQ flagss auto-marked helpful if the question is closed?
because
18:49
Why shouldn't they?
You know, back the the close flag discussion, if all my close flags age away because the review task expires because there are not enough reviewers, then it's impossible to get a declined needs improvement flag.
flags have 3 end states: helpful, declined, and disputed. which one makes the most sense when the question is closed?
@user16217248 If the review task gets 3 "Leave Open" results, I believe it is auto-declined.
But if it expires before 3 people leave open it (which is always the case in practice, at least to my expirience), it cannot be declined, it will just age away
19:37
@user16217248 It's a network-wide flag. On smaller sites, you might not have a lot of reviewers so VLQ makes more sense. But on SO, that isn't the case.
 
1 hour later…
21:05
@JeanneDark if you flag itVLQ, then retract that flag does it still go to Triage?
 
2 hours later…

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