Change close reason to make the page a signpost or just delete the whole thing? stackoverflow.com/q/28578084/2943403 66% of the answers contain no explanation.
→ 1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null (the edit referred to has been rolled back, which is what should have happened originally, rather than voting to close)
@AdrianMole Maybe I'm missing it, but that question doesn't seem to be lacking details or clarity. The only detail I'd want to see included that is currently missing is the exact model number of the part, but this is general enough issue that I think it can be answered (as someone did) without needing to know the specific model.
@mickmackusa Deleted that one; it seemed overly terrible, and hadn't been working as a signpost for many years, so no reason to think it should become one now.
@mickmackusa This (and the next one) seem very much like downvote reasons, not delete reasons.
@CodyGray To be fair, it wasn't pointing anywhere until I posted the linking comment. It did have 5k views though. (I'm not actually arguing against the deletion.)
@CodyGray We want to keep answers that do not answer the asked question? Stack Overflow is trying to collect downvote magnets?
Heh, right. I mean, the person who posted it clearly thinks it's an answer to the question. That does make it a learning opportunity for them, and possibly others, to understand why it's not correct.
@JasonLiam Can you explain why that needs expedited deletion?
It's already closed as a duplicate. I see no way in which it is causing harm that would justify requesting (or implementing) expedited deletion.
in general, I agree that "nth dupe" is not at all a good enough deletion reason. Undeleted dupes improve discoverability of the canonical and help rate their importance.
@mickmackusa "This code treats repeated values as one" seems like a plausible interpretation of the spec to me. Certainly not a common one, and one that would normally be asked about explicitly, but it certainly could be argued that "the second highest number" refers to the numbers in the array (i.e., distinct numbers), not the elements (treated as separate entities even if they have the same value)
@KarlKnechtel I'm not even saying that it's an invalid deletion reason altogether. It might be valid once the question reaches a certain age that you can clearly say it is offering no value (based on view counts, upvotes, etc.). But I do not think it's a valid deletion reason so soon after the question is posted/closed.
Heck, it's possible that we've all misunderstood a nuance of the question, and the asker edits it to explain why it's not a duplicate. I'm not going to argue that's common or that I expect it, but it's certainly possible, and it's why we shouldn't expedite deletion of questions that are closed as duplicates. Beyond the fact that they're doing no harm once they are closed.
@KarlKnechtel My problem isn't with the interpretation of the requirements, but actually the flawed implementation. With my new, realistic sample array with three unique values/elements, the answer only return the highest value and the second highest value is never populated. The answer is simply incorrect.
Under 6, say, dupes helps with dicoverability. But more than that and people probably are searching well enough or the pre-existing pages need rewording for improved searchability.
@AdrianMole I support endeavoring to be constructive when the system's documented guidelines are not followed. Pointing them to the guidelines should never be considered snarky.
@mickmackusa errm, I meant "discoverability" and "probably AREN'T searching well enough".
→ 1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null (multiple objections raised and not countered; if there is a need for the post to be deleted in an expedited manner, raise a new request with a justification)
that really isn't always more expeditious. Many things closed as dupes would have been closed for other reasons if they weren't dupes, and many of those are just hopeless and would have headed for a swift deletion
deletion requires three users to click a button. editing requires one to think, extract a meaning from what might be barely comprehensible, and do a bunch of typing.
Probably, your point being that it's easier to turn off your brain and delete things than it is to try to salvage value where possible. I resist that point.
an extremely common pattern here is that someone posts a bad debugging request, the bug is caused by some common gotcha, and is duped to the reference canonical for the gotcha
@CodyGray See, this is exactly why I instinctively hate trying to have conversations when you, specifically, are involved.
The fact that users are falling victim to a common gotcha, yet are unable to find the answer, suggests that we have inadequate coverage of that problem, and thus are benefitted by their posting their question.
I see. Sorry. I have a limited amount of time available, so maybe I assume that the thought is finished too early.
In fact, I am going to trust that @tripleee understands what I am talking about well enough to continue the explanation from here, and bow out, because I can. not. deal with this.
@CodyGray For someone with a limited amount of time, you sure seem eager to respond to everything I write, and lurk around in a meta chatroom for a volunteer technical Q&A site.
I think that accusing Cody of lurking with intent is unfair. He's a moderator, and has frequently stated that he has concerns about the amount of 'unsuitable' delete requests made in this room
I've spent the last several minutes putting off work that I need to do in order to listen to concerns. Unfortunately, it seems that that has made my claims appear "suspect".
I'll know next time not to bother engaging in a discussion, because that's apparently not appreciated.
I read a lot of comments and/or messages from users with substantial amounts of reputation—users that most of our users consider to be "moderators" (albeit incorrectly, but only in a pedantic sense, because these users do have and exercise moderator-style privileges)—and far too many of these comments and/or messages are making claims about what is allowed on the site that are simply invalid and incorrect.
a common corner case for shell scripts (and Awk etc) is when the OP used a DOS editor and introduce line endings which are incompatible with the POSIX platform; the slam dunk is to close as a dupe of the canonical Are shell scripts sensitive to encoding and line endings? but properly speaking these should probably be closed as no repro
now we have a dupe superficially about an unrelated problem which is unlikely to help future visitors
while theoretically another user could come up with a similar articulation (perhaps something like "why is this variable not equal to itself" or "Awk just will not work") there are way too many ways this can manifest for these dupes to be likely to provide value for future visitors
I guess I got confused because, in context, I was specifically speaking about a [del-pls] on a post that had only been closed immediately earlier, by the poster of the [del-pls], and had specifically allowed for the fact that it might be valid after a longer period of time had passed.
@KarlKnechtel What if the nth dupe only contains redundant insights already covered by the dupe(s)? Then researchers would need to waste time confirming which answers are correct and unique (across multiple pages) versus the ones that are duplicated and incorrect ...then try to mentally sort the answers based on their own value algorithm (if they don't blindly trust vote counts).
@CodyGray then the SO UI should unconditionally hide all answers? Cool. Then the system could alert the answerers who answered the closed question to either vote to reopen or transfer their advice to the dupe target. Let's go!
@sta a "thank you" comment doesn't make the question "no longer reproducible", it might well be some other user suggested a solution in the comments because they didn't had the time to write a proper answer
@MrUpsidown IMO, it's one of those self-Q&As where the question doesn't really make sense without the answer. If you just look at the question, I'd vote for too broad or lacking clarity. The answer sort of helps with understanding the question but that's not how self-Q&As should work.
Also, maybe even if clarified, I'd go for too broad. Or a dupe. The core of the query is essentially "How do I extract lat/long from Google Maps link". But also throws in "using Vue.js" which really a separate question along the lines of "How do I have an input where I do something with the text in it".
@tacoshy in general you can flag it for moderator attention, but since the bounty is almost about to expire, there's a significant chance the flag will be declined
For bountied but very wrong questions use a modflag. But in some situations nothing might be done. If it's a "mild" case of problematic (as in, it can wait) or perhaps if there is say a day left from the bounty.
@tacoshy you can wait for the bounty to end and then post your request in here. I'd only flag for mod attention if the bounty is pretty new, as mod intervention would give the bounty rep back, so in later stages a mod may not intervene and wait for the bounty to end.
one side would agrue it makes no difference and can be left out, the other would say it could help for redundancy. so it would be open for discussion as there is no clear set of rules to it
IMHO that is an opinion. But might be my autism that I don't get the difference between an opinion and not useful or it could be an opinion but might have some value
At most, then, there are two sides, which could be presented in different answers. That still doesn't seem to me to be the type of opinion-based question that we say not to ask.
@tacoshy A good answer would be "it doesn't matter" and would discuss why. There is no real strong reason for or against adding a property and declaring the default but an answer can discuss why it would be done. A it is a somewhat common approach.
An opinion-based question would be more about picking one of infinite possibilities where there is absolutely no reason to generally prefer one over the other. Whereas, as Cody says, there is a very limited pool of options here (two) and both can be discussed reasonably.
For comparison, the question "What should the default value for an age field be?" can have theoretically infinite answers. In practice in programming, bound by the size of the number type used but still. You could equally argue for null or -1 or 0 or 100 or 9999.
It could provably be the millionth duplicate, and I still wouldn't see a reason to delete it immediately after it was asked. This case does not appear to be any different.
@CodyGray yeah; again, I don't think anybody here is contesting that, except perhaps one user who still has not responded to requests to clarify why they post del-pls immediately
Is it, perhaps, time to get the "committee" to discuss (and possibly re-word) the FAQ advice on del-pls requests? Particularly, in regard to the second bullet point - just because something is technically eligible for a delete request, does that mean that it should be allowed (if it doesn't meet other, "needs to go quickly" criteria)?
For a 10k/20k user to cast a delete vote 'organically' is one thing; but recruiting others to support such a vote is quite a severe curation/moderation action, and something that the vast majority of SO users won't be able to undo.
And we don't explicitly require that users give a sound reason for expedited deletion. The "Nth duplicate" reason is most common but, even that (IMHO) is not really, of itself, a reason to delete an otherwise 'reasonable' question, especially if it has one or more decent answers.
@JeanneDark Not explicitly referencing the FAQ. But there does seem to be a problem.
(I'm trying to ride two horses, here - trying to not come down particularly on either side of the debate. However, I tend to drift towards the "let's not delete stuff just because we can" school of thought.)
the contention seems to be specifically around the "nth dupe" delete reason so let's perhaps simply try to avoid that in favor of something more compelling
Is that a problem with the FAQ and something it could solve or with people being lazy and/or misunderstanding the purpose of the site (believing every duplicate should eventually be deleted, somewhat like cv-pls requests for questions with no own effort)?
the landscape has changed somewhat, up until I think sometime last year del-pls was an unusual event but the room has learned to make better use of this facility, perhaps now that cv-pls actually works after they reduced the requirement from 5 to 3 close votes
for me it was a bit of a revelation to realize that I could finally start doing something about all these low-quality dupes I bump into whenever I search for a canonical
call me slow, but I feel that the focus of the entire room has shifted along those lines now
I pretty much try to limit by del-pls to where I could find the dupe target by googling the question title, or the problem statement. Otherwise I just VTC and the the roomba deal with it if it winds up qualifying.
Asking to delete a "low quality" dupe is one thing; but that's not the same as asking to delete for no other reason than it's the "Nth" dupe. Dharman (pre-diamond days) was quite prolific in such requests, but always gave reasons other than "Nth dupe".
I think we need to require that people making delete requests give a sound reason for why expedited deletion is justified.
my broomba process is roughly, when I cv-pls something and it's awful but looks like it will not roomba, take note in the broomba room, and revisit after a few days
I guess "awful duplicate" is not descriptive enough either?
I would say we need the requester to explain why it's an "awful" duplicate. If they can't do that (or can't be bothered to try), then the request(s) should be binned.
(or just vote to close something, or hammer it in a tag where I can)
@AdrianMole sounds fair enough to me, though I have a backlog of mick's requests in the broomba room which do not all have any more detail than whatever he wrote there when he dropped them there
I have six in the queue currently with "nth duplicate" but most of them have more elaborate reasoning than that
@CodyGray The question is resource request and closed correctly. It is attracting low quality answers. Two answers are Link Only. AFAIK, most voted answer is outdated. Also, it does not work in many cases. Some of the links are dead. Far better free/open source and easy to use tools are now available.
@AmitJoshi It won't (can't) attract any sort of answer(s) while it's closed. It has been through the reopen queue at least once (I know, because I was one of the "leave closed" reviewers) and has no pending reopen vote.
... and I really can't see that question getting 3 reopen votes in the required time-frame to actually get it open for answers.
I would ask how a closed question could possibly be attracting any answers, but I see Adrian has already done that.
If there are answers that are link-only, those should probably be deleted. I suppose the major part I was missing is that the top-scoring answer is outdated and/or doesn't work. It seems that many people have found it useful, and it doesn't look low-quality to me.
@AdrianMole For sure, "Nth duplicate" is really not helpful. But I guess that in many cases duplicates may require some expert knowledge to judge (unless they are obviously terrible, or were mainly closed as duplicates because it's quicker for gold badgers). That may make it harder to aptly describe why it's delete-worthy (beyond "poor" or "low-quality").
It's really not that complicated. If you're requesting to delete a question within days of it being closed, then you need to present to us some reason why leaving question visible would cause harm. If you can't do that, then don't make the request.
There is no problem with making a request for deletion of an old duplicate question on the grounds that the ground is well-trod and the duplicate adds no value whatsoever. It's even reasonable, however grating it may be to some of us, to use shorthand like "nth duplicate" to refer to this situation.
It would definitely be preferable if people provided a better, well-considered, specific reason for why a question they're requesting to delete should be deleted, but there isn't a specific rule that requires them to do that, and if they fail to do that, it's certainly possible that their request may be contested and/or removed, but that doesn't imply they did anything wrong by requesting it.
@Adriaan "Where I live" is a matter of some debate, at the moment. I made a point of Laying my Hat in the new house in Laos, before I left. Now, I'm on my (slow) way back to Sunny Scotland.
@CodyGray In a way, the FAQ already covers that case "Unless there's a good reason, it doesn't have to be now (i.e. unless there's a good reason, wait to post the del-pls until the post is actually eligible for deletion-votes)." Whoever reads the FAQ therefore should know a good reason is necessary for quick deletion.
@JeanneDark Yes, indeed. I usually prefer to do crazy stuff like base decisions on common sense and rationality, but the FAQ often agrees with this, too.
@AdrianMole It won't (can't) attract any sort of answer(s) while it's closed. That's correct. I was referring to the answers those were already posted before close. Two of them are Link Only.
@CodyGray If there are answers that are link-only, those should probably be deleted. I am not sure but if I flag an answer NAA on the question which is closed as Resource Request, the flag will be rejected. They generally say, if question is asking for resource and answer is providing one, it IS an answer.
@TylerH No, I don't think so (although I haven't actually double-checked). Jeanne was referring to a conversation that had extended further back in this room than that Meta question, centering around one or two del-pls requests that were on recent questions.
@CodyGray 'almost literally' is a peculiar choice of words here. It sounds like you think it is an abuse by your sentiment, but that is technically saying it is not an abuse of the privilege?
Personally, while I agree stuff should very rarely be deleted by consensus voting within 15 minutes of posting (or some other very short time frame), the ability to even cast delete votes in the first place is locked behind an 'excessively low score' threshold. So there's an argument that the system as designed has 'marked' this as "worthy" of delete votes... since it isaccepting of them, in the first place.
@IanCampbell Maybe. I've no idea about Kubernetes, thus I don't know if it does answer, however, it seems like the user is saying they used that command to fix the error that the quetion reported.
Maybe we should ask that the quick-delete threshold be lowered to <= 6 instead of <= 4? That may or may not have made a difference here since it was a -7, but I suspect some of the downvotes came from those who cast delete votes...
@IanCampbell Yes, it looks like an answer to me. The OP did not specify a version, so we can't even argue that the answer is for the wrong version, really.
@TylerH I think you might be reading a bit too much into it. I just meant that I think it borders on an abuse of the privileges. I don't necessarily agree with the argument that simply because the system allows a user to do something it cannot be an abuse of the privilege to do that thing. That's kind of how privileges work, isn't it? On the other hand, I'm not 100% convinced that it's sanctionable, which is why (A) I haven't sanctioned anyone, and (B) I'm frustrated by it.
@IanCampbell I agree with the others. In addition, I checked, and it doesn't seem to duplicate (exactly) any of the other answers, so I'm not even seeing an argument that it is a "thank you" post hiding. (As such, I deleted 2 comments suggesting it was.)
@TylerH I actually agree with this, although I, myself, prefer to give the OP the opportunity to improve their post. But this is a self-imposed limitation. I think I'd also welcome increasing (decreasing?) the score threshold for 20k-deleting questions.
Although Lundin in the Meta post does raise a valid point that, at -7 score, it's unfortunately very unlikely that even a stellar revision would salvage the post or prevent it from Roomba'ing after 10 days
@blackgreen I chose decreasing since the absolute value of the threshold is getting lower
but yeah, maybe "changing" would be a less confusing term...
@TylerH Eh, I don't necessarily disagree with that. On the other hand, it's quite possible that there exists problematic content that should be immediately deleted, without waiting for additional downvotes to roll in. I'm not really in favor of restricting privileges at the system level just because some users can't be trusted to wield them appropriately.
I agree that the question is unsalvagable. The link is also scary and I don't want to click it. I don't think it must be deleted, but I can understand the delete voters there.
I wish there was some way for a new contributor to dig themselves out of a hole like that. Like if they make an edit to the question and it it later receives an upvote it they could get a "get-out-of-jail-free" card or something.
The link isn't scary; that's just an online service for compiling C and C++ code. It's not a valid way to add code in a question, to be clear, but it's not something spammy or risky.
That is actually one of the few things I think that Staging Ground would help with.
But it's not really that big of a deal to have a question get a bunch of downvotes.
I agree it's not ideal, but it's not bad enough that I think we need to make system-level changes or implement potentially-abusable features (like the ability to clear downvotes).
@Adriaan Sounds like something that would exist. I'm not sure if I've seen it, though. Yet it does sound very familiar like something I might have encountered.
@Adriaan Hmm, there's an "edited" badge that shows up when a mod views the flag from the mod flag dashboard. It's easy enough to miss, but it does exist. Unfortunately, there's nothing that shows up when the flag is viewed inline (i.e., on the page itself). Personally, I use a userscript (written by Shog9 and myself) that inlines the flags in orange boxes above or below the posts, and that doesn't have timestamps at all. So I suppose the proper place for a feature-request is my GitHub repo...
I don't think Ian's edit is the one that changed the meaning; it was the author's edit (2nd revision).
@CodyGray I get those declines every roughly 1k flags (also one month for me). Not too big of a problem, but they do pollute my stats and might get me into a flag ban
@Adriaan A flag ban? No, very unlikely, unless you get them all at once. Trust me, flag bans are way too hard to get. I frequently have users who I wish would get a temporary flag ban, because all 8+ of their recent flags have been totally incoherent, and yet they don't.
@TylerH @AmitJoshi This only needed minimal editing to be not a resource request, which I've applied now--making the request inaccurate/invalid, so I am binning. CC @CodyGray (since you replied)
Thanks! Done. Also converted the lowest-quality answer to a comment. Unsure about the remaining middlin' one. It's not exactly NAA-flag-eligible, but still not great.
I was fairly active early on but there were a lot of problems/things unclear with the process that needed fixing
Then I got busy while waiting for them to be fixed, and haven't popped back into the chat room, which I see Makyen is keeping from being frozen, which doesn't seem like a good sign...
Last I looked there was one remaining "Needing major changes" SG item in the SG. The author just... Isn't quite gettin' there.
@TylerH They've got a boatload of changes they're planning on making and some other stuff that was mentioned in the Team. It's not my place to disclose 'em as much as I'd like to.
@TylerH It also ran in December which I personally thought wasn't really good. Lots of people having varied availability at that point. But also it really couldn't have worked over the holidays. I think it ended some time before Christmas.
Not really a seekrit. Or, if it is, nothing anyone who wasn't in the first Beta can really do about it, IIRC ... the same folks will be auto-enrolled in the next round.
One of the more annoying things to me was users getting their freshly-asked questions chosen for the SG, then simply being able to re-ask that same exact question and completely sidestep the SG, which made their willingness to engage on the SG-version of their post zero.
That seemed to be unintentional, of course, but still.
@CodyGray I agree and that's the one case that comes to my mind when thinking about quick del-pls requests: Questions that are of very low quality and look very spammy but not enough for actual spam flags (something like "please visit my website [...](...) and tell me what's wrong") because the user may really be just very confused. So you get rid of it as quickly as possible in case it's just a way to lure us on their website, yet don't incur the penalty.
@JeanneDark There are also posts that aren't spam nor are they abusive but are completely unfit. Like somebody posting a something meant for another stack or just a rant (not even against anything on the network). Such posts are relatively rare but still fall under things that shouldn't be kept up but don't really need a red flag.
Blatantly off-topic posts, where it's obvious to everyone that they cannot possibly be salvaged, such as questions about cooking, gardening, philosophy, Buddhism, etc., can be summarily deleted after being closed. (Although I still don't necessarily think they need to waste the resources of SOCVR, but that's a different issue.)
Confusion of terminology is something I see from users of all reputation levels. I don't really think that's fair to blame on the system.
@KevinB The issue is not putting it loud and proud in front of new users' faces that questions are curated by the community, not just moderators. A non-dismissable banner over your first question once asked that says "thanks for asking! Stack Overflow posts are curated by you and fellow askers/answerers in the community. Click here to learn more" would be a lot more effective than the tour page, I think.
@KevinB You are missing that not everyone is the same way; many people aren't curious in that way. They don't want to learn a system first; they want results.
There's no practical (or, arguably, effective) way to gauge whether a new user is in one camp or the other until they've shown us by using the site.
The upvote button looks like an upvote button, ditto for downvote button, and when i hover over it it tells me what it's for, that's clear, easy to understand. Ours however inform you when you use it that you don't have that privilege
I'd really appreciate it if you stopped voting on my post and commenting on how to improve it, and instead spend your time doing my work for me. Thanks!
@TylerH Hmm... something like: "It's built and run by you as part of the Stack Exchange network of Q&A sites. With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed, high-quality answers to every question about programming."
Very true. And I think Kevin's point is valid, that the kind of people who come here motivated by a specific goal, to get an answer, are probably not going to actually read any of the help that is provided. What you hope is that, once they get an answer and solve their immediate goal, they'll either stay and poke around a bit, reading the information that is provided, or they'll think of us and come back later to do that.
I don't know if it's ever been suggested but maybe we should hide the up/down vote buttons entirely (and even the score?) from users until they earn a certain amount of rep (100?), and then let them cast upvotes at another level. Of course the biggest problem there is new askers wouldn't be able to upvote answers to their question. Or maybe we let askers see the vote buttons (and scores? just buttons?) on answers to their own posts, but not on others.
@CodyGray Mostly I actually just care that they don't complain about some site action/feature they haven't taken the time to use, far more than whether they learn to use it themselves.
You also need a: "This question is incoherent drivel"
Because plenty of times when I look for answers to my questions about JavaScript, I find a question that makes me say, "I also have this question", but then I finish reading it and follow up by saying, "This question is incoherent drivel."
There are "overrated" and "underrated" tabs which don't reveal much about what reflects an overrated or underrated post. I'm not sure what to make of the questions listed there.
My read on that kind of data is, anonymous downvotes are more valuable because they're from users who don't have an account. They're more likely to be users who are actively looking for a solution and found that post to be bad.
Hmmm. bobince's regex answer is classified as the most helpful of all time, based on anonymous user feedback. Did they really find that helpful when searching for an answer? Truly, it's a gem, but not because it helps people solve a problem.
Very probable, yes. But my point is more that anonymous user feedback isn't necessarily what Kevin imagines it to be, but is really quite a bit more like upvotes and downvotes from non-registered or low-rep users.
@Spevacus The custom close reasons hall of shame? I don't care to look at that one.
like the stats on "What is a NullPointerException, and how do I fix it?" aren't all that surprising
the larger group of people who run into that problem literally can't fix it themselves, they're not a developer, this answer does nothing for them. That feedback isn't incredibly useful for deciding what to do with the post
It does suggest that maybe closing every question that mentions a NullPointerException as a duplicate of that one may not be serving the ultimate goal.
@CodyGray I'm surprised it isn't the branch prediction failure answer that is the most helpful, but I suppose far more users run into trouble with regular expressions than branch prediction issues
@TylerH @ThierryLathuille these are close vote reasons, not delete-vote reasons. If you feel the questions are worthy of deletion for valid deletion reasons, you may re-request by specifying those reasons.