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12:00 AM
Is at least the first line of this an answer, or is the entire thing a question?
 
 
2 hours later…
 
3 hours later…
5:47 AM
 
 
3 hours later…
8:49 AM
site offline
 
working again for me
 
yup
 
9:31 AM
Good morning
 
10:15 AM
 
what should be done about stackoverflow.com/questions/70803313/…? The OP appears to have accepted a suggestion in one of the comments which renders the question moot
I'm guessing if somebody actually were to find this useful there would need to be more debugging details
 
10:46 AM
 
What should I do with this question? It's a repost of this one (deleted by OP). OP even admitted that they created a new account and reposted the question.
 
@Lino A custom mod flag (linking the deleted Q) would probably be considered helpful. Otherwise, just close vote, leave a comment and let it suffer the same fate ...
 
@Lino flagged for a mod, probably vote to close now
 
Done and dusted, let it rot
 
I just found out how much effort is required to get a necropost tick-switch. stackoverflow.com/a/70817582/2943403 (...hours on my phone)
 
11:39 AM
 
jps
maybe spam seed?
 
12:32 PM
 
1:13 PM
 
1:47 PM
Morning
 
2:24 PM
@mickmackusa nice work!
@tripleee The question/problem is still a valid one even if OP solves the problem by obviating it. Personally I don't think @Zoe's deletion was appropriate there; the answer should have just been edited to list what the solution used was (OP is typically the best authority on what OP did to actually solve the problem).
However, I'm not familiar with the tech in the question whatsoever, so I can't comment on whether it needs more detail, for example.
Also, it looks like I can still interact with mod-deleted post via its review item...
Hmm, well I guess you can still edit deleted content once you have the right privileges to see it, you just can't vote to undelete
 
Zoe
@TylerH Slight oversight on my part there
 
and you can flag comments on a deleted post at any time. Guess I just forgot those skills... thought I had found an exploit for a sec!
@Zoe thank you for revisiting :-)
 
2:46 PM
Hmm... I seem to be getting audited in the LQA queue here. I don't particularly see what's wrong with this answer, but it seems it was deleted? Was it self-promotion?
 
Zoe
Yeah, it's one of two mass spammers causing a ton of LQA audit fails atm
 
The problem (there's a HMP on it as well) is that sometimes you need to red-flag the stuff out so the user gets the penalty, but the catch is the system sees that action as "Hey, this would make a good audit!" when it doesn't
 
"Mass-spammers" meaning "copy-paste same answer on multiple questions" type of thing?
 
Zoe
@Calculuswhiz as in the same user self-promoting in a substantial number of posts
I vaguely remember one of them having 35 (+- 4) posts, for scale
 
3:01 PM
That's kinda annoying. Good thing the LQA audits are usually easy to spot I guess.
 
@Machavity Would deleting subtle spam as R/A work? They wouldn't get used as audits, and the penalty and spam-ram effects would be the same, right?
 
Hmm. Not sure that SpamRam does treat Spam and R/A flags the same.
 
@cigien Red flags are all the same to the system AFAIK
The intent is the only real difference. Spam is necessarily rude and vice versa, but both will get deleted
 
isn't*
 
3:27 PM
Interesting. So, if I say something rude about your mother, then that's the same as linking to one of my blogs on how to write an OS in Perl.
... not that I would do either. ;)
 
Hmm, in that case maybe it would make sense to use a r/a deletion. (Just for mods when deleting subtle spam, of course, not to change the guidance for regular users). There's been a fair number of (legit IMO) complaints recently about subtle spam showing up as audits, and this may help.
 
Am I smelling a yo moma joke?
 
@AdrianMole Both get you deleted, -100 rep, and a temporary posting block
The type differentiation is more for mods, so we have some clue why you think it's that bad
 
How about if I suggested that your mother writes a blog on how to write an OS in Perl?
 
Perl is God's language, so I would believe it.
 
3:30 PM
Them's fightin words... My mother would only use Java to write an OS
 
@cigien IIRC, the R/A block for audits was only for some queues. Or has it now been extended to all queues?
 
Oh, no idea. I know that makes for a difference for at least some queues, but I don't know if it applies to all. It would still help at least in those queues.
 
@AdrianMole Spam is used on low quality and first post.
Up/down/close votes is for the reopen and close queue
Garzalgio is for the suggested edits
 
@AdrianMole The R/A block to becoming an audit was, for quite some time, only for one, then two, queues. It's been extended since then to cover most, if not all, queues.
To be blocked from becoming an audit requires only a single helpful R/A flag. The rest can be spam flags.
 
3:36 PM
And, presumably, 5 spam + 1 R/A flag will get them all auto-marked as helpful?
 
Yes.
 
Then maybe cigien has a good point - if you see that a post already has -5 or lower score.
 
To clarify, I'm not entirely comfortable with regular users casting a different red-flag for the purposes of circumventing audit selection. I'm thinking this is more something mods can do when deleting the post manually.
 
@AdrianMole That's going to depend. If it's actually spam, and clear that it's spam from the content of the post, there really isn't a need. But, if it requires substantial context from outside of the post which won't be available to someone catching an audit, then it might be useful. OTOH, there are a lot of spam posts which aren't chosen as audits, so it's not clear how helpful that would be to do proactively.
@cigien I wouldn't want to encourage people to use R/A flags for this purpose on a regular basis, and certainly not all the time. However, there are cases where humans can make a significantly better determination than the automatic system currently does.
 
@Machavity I mean, just manually selecting audit items would be a significant improvement
let alone some other yet-to-be-devised system
 
3:54 PM
@Makyen Noted, thanks. I'll do that next time I come across a case like this, though I'll probably double check then anyway, just to be sure.
 
Is there anything preventing a spammer from creating an account with the same name/profile pic as SmokeDetector coming in here and posting fake links to virus websites?
 
@MFerguson for one thing you need an account with enough rep; but technically, no, there is nothing stopping anyone from masquerading as Smokey, or a room owner, or you
 
Heh, I had a fan once.
 
Maybe Smokey should get the diamond symbol
 
Nah.
There's no point in that
 
4:02 PM
there's been talk of a bot badge but I don't think it's a priority
 
4:20 PM
🤡‭
 
Yellow flag?
 
@Machavity I'm a "gold flagger" according to the mod flagger stats userscript :')
Turns out in my early years of SO I did not know how to use flags so I got a bunch of declined flags, took me some time but I finally reached 99+% accuracy.
 
They should have never removed flag count from user profile
3
 
@MFerguson and nobody answered yet on the MSO post :\ I think we should copy-paste the Q into MSE
O wait, someone did! Good.
 
5:00 PM
Bunch of busy body business majors
 
@MarcoBonelli 4800 flags is indeed a good number. But "a bunch" of declines? I expected a larger number
 
@MarcoBonelli silver flag at 98.63%... hm!
 
@MarcoBonelli I'm only at 98.91% accuracy overall on SO
will probably hit 99% this year
 
@Machavity hmm yeah, I'm probably just saying that because if you look back at my old declined flags you can clearly see they were nonsense :') so they feel extra heavy to me. Could've easily avoided them if I used my brain.
 
@MarcoBonelli Not really. Everyone gets NAAs wrong once in a while. Your declines aren't horrible, and are a miniscule amount of your flag history. Don't be so hard on yourself
3
 
5:11 PM
@TylerH that's pretty good considering last time I checked you had double my helpful flags
 
my declined flags are all flags that should have been approved
 
@blackgreen nice, keep going, see you in the gold tier soon
 
@KevinB I certainly have enough incorrectly declined flags to put me over 99% if they were all set to helpful, but not all
@MarcoBonelli I would look to see your # of helpful flags but the devs decided that wasn't something we should be able to know :-(
I currently have 16188 helpful flags on SO
 
@TylerH 4807
Oh wow you grew that number a lot quicker than I thought
 
Over time, hiding stats such as flags cast, could reduce the people who perform those actions regularly
 
5:15 PM
@KevinB over time? I expect that effect very quickly
"lack of discoverabilty" is a big problem with a lot of the changes here
 
quickly is still over time, ;)
 
@MarcoBonelli it will grow quickly... I am at 11379 currently
 
Yeah like... what's in it for me if they remove even that little bit of pride coming from that helpful flag statistic on my profile... basically nothing.
Of course I am not doing it for the number or to show off, but still.
 
if all of a sudden downvotes no longer showed publicly or removed rep, would people stop casting downvotes? in the near-term, probably, but long-term would users who never experienced downvotes as they are today be more likely to cast them on low quality content?
 
I already stopped disliking yt videos
 
5:18 PM
i never really did before
i don't watch videos i don't like
 
@KevinB yeah but I don't think they could get away with such a move. That'd be catastrophic.
@KevinB sometimes you cannot know if you don't like something without watching it first though
 
Some data could be pulled from anonymous voting habits filtered to posts that are 0 scored
 
@LucaKiebel probably should continue. It still is feedback to the uploader.
 
from what i've heard thus far anonymous voters have a much higher percentage of downvotes cast than non-anonymous votes
yeah, that's in the /tools data
39% vs 5%
that's not filtered to 0 vote posts, but still
to be clear, i'm not advocating for this, just a thought experiment
displaying helpful flags on the profile page acts as a sort-of gamification feature. Sure, there's no rep reward, but a count visible on the profile creates a number you can increase
Voting is in the same boat, but voting stats have always been far more hidden than flagging stats
 
5:34 PM
@KevinB that's true
 
5:52 PM
Is this R/A or just NAA?
Well, I see a delete vote appeared, so I guess that's a vote for NAA.
 
Just NAA IMO, though a R/A flag would probably be marked helpful as well.
 
Deleted with no R/A flags, I guess we have consensus. Thanks
 
they're probably using an unsupported browser
 
6:34 PM
@KevinB I disliked on the rare occasion I found a video that purported to show something I needed but then never showed it
but YouTube has never had good dislike support in general
comments have never shown dislike counts
which is frustrating, since that's more important to know whether people like or dislike it
of course for important stuff, like reddit comments, I regularly go and unhide/re-enable the downvote option for subs that disable/restrict it so I can downvote dumb/wrong stuff
 
@TylerH reddit subs can disable downvoting? Didn't know that.
 
@MarcoBonelli Yeah, most who do usually just set it as a subscription flag so you have to join the subreddit, but some will disable it completely, or put it behind custom requirements
You know, the whole "downvoting is for problematic content, not content you happen to disagree with"
doesn't work great on reddit since its all just opinionated discussion anyway
 
user has one other legitimate question so maybe just NAA
 
Hmm, not sure. Nothing about the account seems to indicate an affiliation; it does seem to be relevant to the question
of course the question is off-topic
 
jps
thanks, the whole q/a is gone now.
 
@KevinB it would be interesting to see a 1-year and 6-month trend in flagging (preferably from non-automated sources only, but I don't know how easy it is to filter that out, if it's even possible), weighted by/broken down by age of account from before the removal of the stat compared to after
 
7:01 PM
also important to note that the 39% to 5% isn't a... 1:1 comparison, if you combined them into a total it'd still far favor toward the lower number
aka if all downvotes were counted equally, in a more anonymous-feedback style voting system
rather than anonymous votes being ignored like they are now
but i do still find it interesting that the ratios are so different
anonymous voters, aka voters presumably without an account, appear to be far more likely to cast downvotes than voters who have an account and enough rep
well, downvotes, when compared to upvotes, anyway
less likely to vote at all
 
There are several theories about why, but my favorite one is that they actually evaluate the usefulness of the posts, rather than just effort.
 
i tend to favor the idea that people are less likely to cast a downvote, after knowing that it adversely affects the user's ability to ask and/or their reputation
presumably, by the time you even can downvote, you've likely received one
pair that with losing rep when you downvote an answer,
 
And that's why I call them honest voters.
 
that's... sortof why i tend to lean toward keeping the one that appears to be more "honest"
but that's not at all a popular idea on meta
effectively, could downvoting still do what it does, without it being displayed or affecting rep... potentially with a different UI, such as a "👎 This answer isn't useful" or "👎 This post is unclear/missing information" (with an auto close flag)
it could certainly lead to some odd cases of "My post was closed but it was +10!" at 30 downvotes
 
 
2 hours later…
8:57 PM
 
9:08 PM
cool, all the important numbers are smaller now
(on mso questions page)
i assume it'll hit main soon,
i don't understand how they managed to go to a more cramped design that takes up more space with the same info
 
9:21 PM
literally fit an entire 2 additional questions on the old version, when scrolled to top
what is this solving
 
9:52 PM
@KevinB oh god
 
the missing "Answered" an "modified" bit is getting fixed
they need to add back the favorited tag coloring
 
Oh, cool, the bounty stat shows up in the left stat list, so, even moar space
 
at least /questions page still looks normal
 
10:07 PM
just wait till they add the 'answered by' and 'modified by' lines and they have collective badges, you know, because they removed the gold/silver/bronze badges to save space
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Did SE devs start smoking pot at work lately or what, what the hell is going on...
 
They're designing everything such that it can be reused for all types of content
this design supports literally all forms of posts: questions, answers, search results, articles,
 
They are *destroying everything FTFY
 
just because one design can do everything, doesn't mean it can do everything well
 
yeah...
 
10:09 PM
it's the same trap as their mobile redesign
 
I'm just gonna point the stack overflow logo to /questions with a userscript. My eyes can't stand this.
 
The worst part is there are fewer separate elements now containing actual content
so I will have to use JS in order to target different bits of info and apply different styles
 
Yes, their (terrible) new design is literally impossible to restyle without JS
 
@MarcoBonelli is that a bug?
 
@Dharman nope :D that's the new homepage. Welcome to the club.
 
10:16 PM
it doesn't look right
surely, some of it must be a bug
 
I really hope so.
Though it would be kind of insane if they didn't realize such a thing before pushing it to production, so I'm skeptical.
 
After staring at it for 2 mins I got used to it, but still it's not great
 
Given how user title their questions on a daily basis, it's almost impossible to tell anything about a question just by looking at the title. I feel kind of lost without even an excerpt of the content.
 
I really wish SE would actually do something useful with their developer's time. Can't they fix the bugs that we have been asking for a long time? Why do they touch stuff that didn't require any immediate attention
3
 
Anyway seems intentional: you can see it was actually announced here meta.stackexchange.com/questions/375081
 
10:23 PM
where are the descriptions/bodies of the posts
 
Anyone know who can undelete a community wiki post? The FAQ doesn't seem to mention that aspect.
 
@IanCampbell flag for mod action, probably
 
so it looks like they made more space for the title
 
The fact that they put zero emphasis on the number of votes and basically just "hide" the question score using little grey on grey text is MEH.
 
it was the same before
 
10:26 PM
Every element being so close together is also weird
 
The on the votes vs. score answer is a bit of a slap in the face.
 
@Dharman not really, it was a huge number highlighted as the first element on the left before, as you can see in your web archive link
 
@IanCampbell Yeah that's literally a 5 second change
 
I think the new UI also looks worse on mobile
We will see once they change /questions page. I think there will be a bigger outcry
 
Meh is the new progress. Get real ... 21st Century, and all that jazz.
 
10:27 PM
Also, is it only me or it's impossible to find your custom filters on mobile? I can't find them.
 
@MarcoBonelli They're at the very bottom
 
@MarcoBonelli I can't even find my mobile.
 
@Dharman Ohhhhh wow... ok, thanks. LOL
 
@MarcoBonelli no filters are visible at all on SO main on desktop
for me at least
 
Many things are missing on Mobile. I think.
 
10:30 PM
@TylerH What do you mean, aren't they on the right column?
 
... no timeline, no votes breakdown ...
 
Pretty sure there used to be some filters there even on so.com, not just /questions
 
@TylerH I see them on both right now. I was talking about the custom ones on mobile (that are on the right column).
Strange that you don't see those.
 
@MarcoBonelli the home page never had an excerpt
 
10:32 PM
@KevinB Guess I never browse the homepage then... strange how I only managed to notice that now lol.
Indeed from the meta post it seems they want to keep those excerpts on /questions, thankfully.
 
@MarcoBonelli Could be another userscript but I doubt it since all the classes and markup is different now
 
@AdrianMole yeah the mobile site is still the "old" design basically, everything except the home page has the old layout (and also no dark theme)
 
mobile site won't get changed
aside from being deleted
 
I thought this whole "New Look" was about mobiles.
 
10:37 PM
then why does it not look good on mobiles?
 
If you want some pain, just go into the review queues on a mobile.
 
There are some questions that humanity will never have an answer to...
 
"Humanity" != "SE Devs"!.
 
@Dharman Oh so I am not the only one to mistakenly think that the excerpts went missing hahaha
 
Seriously, where are my question body previews. ugh this is horrible
 
10:47 PM
The answer is always a userscript.
 
But they already asked us what our user-scripts do - presumably, so they can disable them all.
 
i look forward to when they remove jquery and the internet dies
 
Gah, here I was thinking they were trying to help, but that makes way more sense
 
hopefully all these people complaining about the home page missing excerpts doesn't result in excerpts being added to the home page
 
i.stack.imgur.com/bBb4d.png Well, getting there
 
10:56 PM
making it flex row, 16px font, and 192px width, makes it 100% better
 
yeah but the old layout looked 1000% better so that's still a 900% regression
 
^ Does not compute. Error 4742.
 
@TylerH the cool thing is that they were never there, but only now we are noticing it :') lol
 
@MarcoBonelli yeah they just made it glaring. But they are missing from the /questions view where the new theme is applied
 
haha
> Frankly, this is the most awful change I've ever seen on Stack Overflow.
status-bydesign
 
11:04 PM
Being the public face of this change has to be a really hard job. I hope Ben Kelly is getting hazard pay.
 
They should all be paid proportionately to the votes on their Meta announcements. xD
 
More downvotes = more hazard pay?
 
@TylerH I... I don't have the new theme applied on /questions. I am so confused.
 
generally can care less about change happening, just don't make it harder to use... don't make the info we're looking for smaller, or non existent.
2
 
@KevinB I'm seeing that tag on any MSE answer asking to please revert or change the bad parts of this design. Amazing.
@KevinB I wouldn't mind it to be honest. In fact, I probably never used the home page before (and I will keep not using it) because it does not have excerpts.
 
11:09 PM
It can be tough to understand how your users will perceive a change when you can't possibly see it from their perspective
 
@IanCampbell I wonder if they have a wheel of fortune in the office to pick who's going to post on MSE.
 
i can't understand how someone who primarily asks questions here uses the site
how can you have questions and not solve them
 
@KevinB well, answers under the announcement post have been overall negative.. so not that hard to understand in this case.
 
sure, after the rolling it out
 
@MarcoBonelli Haha, I imagine them drawing features out of a hat and being really disappointed when they get the ones that will set off the Meta community
 
11:11 PM
prior to that it was pretty chill
positively received
 
@KevinB here's how: post a Q, get an A, forget about it and go to sleep, never ask/answer anything again. I think nowdays 90% of SO's userbase acts like this unfortunately.
 
but i can't imagine that people developing this are able to look at the question list and perceive it in the same way you or I do, or as a new user, etc. it's different, when you're the one behind the curtain
user testing is important
the avatars being part o the list now results in a wave of colored boxes going own the page randomly
i dont think an avatar that small adds anything in the question list
 
The unaligned rainbow down the page messes with my OCD also.
 
@IanCampbell what's that?
 
11:21 PM
@IanCampbell oh yeah, agree
 
11:38 PM
i clicked on a question thinking it had a score of 10, no, it had a score of 303
it had 10 answers
omg
"Watched" is yet another thing that's on the left stat column
 
Hey they fixed the homepage layout. Can't have a bad layout if there is no layout!
 
iirc that error is somewhat related to a new build being pushed to SO... unless that was just misinfo
this might just be my hatred of collectives, but it feels like the collective icons are bigger
(which would be a result of tags getting bigger)
don't think they actually did
 

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