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12:31 AM
 
 
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3:00 AM
@HovercraftFullOfEels Why bother with a custom close reason for a question that's unclear? There's already a standard reason for that.
 
 
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5:44 AM
 
 
2 hours later…
@Dharman what's the context around this?
 
@blackgreen New users ignore quality checks and include gibberish in their questions. This needs to be removed or the question closed.
 
^ also filtering by:
> "It looks like your post is" closed:0
to skip those already closed
@Dharman several of those questions are old and may not qualify for a cv-pls, so what do you do about those? Just cast a vote and push them into the review queue?
 
8:04 AM
yes if you have the time and enough CVs
 
I'll help chip away at it
 
8:54 AM
@tripleee RO please trash, seems to be a valid question on closer inspection
 
9:05 AM
Today's thought bubble: Would it be interesting (to people other than me), to write a SEDE query which shows the total number of bronze, silver, and gold LANGUAGE badges held by Stack Overflow moderators? I am curious about the length and depth of technological knowledge demonstrated by the current mod team. Is there already a SEDE query floating around that does this or similar?
What got me thinking about this is that on JSE (where I am a moderator), I do not consider myself to be an SME of Joomla, but I probably have more combined Stack Exchange experience than any other user there. We will have plenty of users with the inverse qualities -- Joomla SMEs that don't know very much about how Stack Exchange works.
Ideally, a mod team should consist of SE veterans with Subject Matter Expertise. Until my community has these unicorns, I think the best that we can hope for is "a mixed team" -- users who are SMEs and users who are SE veterans.
This line of thinking is factoring into my beliefs around what metrics should be shown on moderator candidacy nominations/cards.
 
10:19 AM
@tripleee → 1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
thanks
 
10:43 AM
@mickmackusa my two cents regarding SO is that a good moderator does not need any technological knowledge, this is not their task (the community/meta should handle issue where technological knowledge is required). A moderator on SO needs a good understanding about the community rulez (what is NAA, what is SPAM etc, how to deal with users etc) and then have great patience handling 100' of these flags every day.
 
@mickmackusa I'd expect the outcome to be correlated to the popularity of programming languages on the site at large. Anyway a SEDE query would be not easy to produce because you'd have to define what a "language" is
 
as example a moderator should never need to judge "this is a good or bad answer" they judge only this is an answer or not.
 
for example, do you consider SQL to be a "language"?
 
Then of course a moderator is also a user, hence in it's capacity as a user they may do what every other users do. (downvote etc)
 
Anyway the SO mod team doesn't comprise many users, so here's a manually compiled list of gold badge distribution, for some definition of "language"
python 8
javascript 5
c#/.net 4
php 4
c++ 3
java 2
obj-c 1
vb.net 1
c 1
r 1
ruby 1
 
11:03 AM
@PetterFriberg the only place where this falls short is probably maintenance that only moderators can do and that requires domain expertise, i.e. merging questions/answers.
 
@blackgreen Some mods also do help with routine curation tasks like closing, though it's not their primary responsibility.
 
@blackgreen probably for SO and mods, it would be better to transfer that task to users (eg with gold badge and few votes)
 
Some good points mentioned. So far I don't disagree with anything said. I wonder if the domain knowledge is of greater important on narrow/niched communities. Stack Overflow has a huge scope, so it would be a herculean requirement for someone to be an expert in all on-topic realms.
 
Moderators have been know to ask for SME advice (on Meta, and in here and other, specialist chat-rooms) prior to making decisions on merging/closing/reopening questions.
I think we need a mod with at least a Haskell gold tag badge. ;-)
 
I have no experience in smaller community but I can immagine that it's more important, you probably have a task also to direct the way that the community should go.
 
11:13 AM
I keep promoting to the Joomla "inner circle" to ask them to come forward and self-nominate as mod candidates in our 2022 moderator reboot, but the truth is that there are very few Joomla users who understand Stack Exchange.
 
getting the voice of someone who mods many sites like @Glorfindel could be useful too
 
Comparatively, SO doesn't need membership growth to thrive -- it already has critical mass. JSE is very much still in its growth phase, so my opinion is that a good mod to have would be someone who has a magical ability to shepherd new users to the community.
Agree, @tripleee Glorfindel would be highly qualified to weigh in.
 
@mickmackusa exactly also to define and push for what rules the community should have.
users that are active on meta often would make good mods
 
@PetterFriberg I very much agree. I think that should be better represented (somehow) on SO candidacy cards.
 
They have the questionary... but yeah mod scoring is what it is :) as is reputation score...
 
11:20 AM
@mickmackusa The current candidate score does include a bit of Meta-activity ... can't remember what it's called, but one of the badges is about Meta activity.
... "Convention" - 10 posts with a score of 2 or more on Meta.
Maybe a gold version of that badge would be better?
 
I used to work for a very large YMCA in the US when I was in my 20's. The CEO explained to me that there were 3 "C"s that where attractive when looking to fill Board Member positions. Cash, Clout, and Charisma. He said when you have those things, you can get a lot accomplished quickly.
@AdrianMole yeah, I feel that that is an underwhelming metric for someone who is a solid contributor to MSO.
Can you get a fanatic badge on MSO? Maybe a requirement should be that you have a fanatic badge on SO and MSO. After all, you need to be able to routinely contribute after you are elected.
 
11:44 AM
@mickmackusa several mods don't participate in meta but they handle flags just fine
 
12:01 PM
I got my 25k privilege today. It's not very useful, but there's a very worrying trend that the number of answers is heavily declining. In 2021 we have been consistently receiving more questions than answers too.
 
congratulations
 
@Dharman Maybe it's the number of useful or answerable questions which is declining.
 
@blackgreen Right. So we should try to build candidacy cards that brandish the awesomeness of their contributions prior to being mods. Discerning voters may prefer to have a meta-active mod others may want a "super-curator". The challenge is getting good comparable metrics so that we don't need to rely on users text to crunch the numbers behind their activity.
 
yeah, I get the feeling we are living more and more Eternal Friday
 
There's no decline in traffic though
 
12:04 PM
@Dharman I am not surprised that answers are declining. SO already has MILLIONS of questions and answers. Most new questions that I encounter don't need ANY new answers to resolve the problem. I think we are in Eternal Hammer-time.
 
@Dharman Meh :-)
 
@blackgreen So, broadly, how many relevant metrics should be tracked? 1. Contributions on Meta -- sure 2. Curations stats like flagging and closing -- sure. What else? I see asking and/or answering thousands of times to be rather irrelevant to a candidacy.
 
Probably number of Steward badges. It's a metric easy to understand for everyone
and is directly related to curation activity
instead of tracking Sportsmanship and Investor...
 
could that be a metric for site health too?
 
12:35 PM
@blackgreen But there are a number of prominent (non-mod) users who do an incredible amount of site curation, but not in the 'formal' review queues. Those who cast close/reopen votes organically, edit posts and tag-Wikis, et cetera.
 
@AdrianMole yeah that was probably covered by mickmackusa's "curation stats"
though I'm not aware oof tag wiki edits being visibly tracked, beside the Research assistant badge
what do you mean with "organically"?
 
@blackgreen As they come across them in the normal course of browsing.
 
12:53 PM
@blackgreen I hunt/curate outside of the review queues -- overzealously, some might say.
 
1:31 PM
When a page gets deleted, if an answer on the page has at least 3 upvotes, does the answerer get to keep the rep? Is it the number of total upvotes or the total vote tally that determines if the answerer keeps the rep?
 
IIRC the age of the answer (or the votes?) make a difference too
this seems to be saying that rep will be lost regardless meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/391357/…
 
My opinion is that after 30,000 there is nothing more to gain from rep.
25K is the last milestone that I am aware of.
 
I got stickers and socks
 
The additional 5000 helps with delete votes, or something. I think Machivity explained that to me half a year ago.
What is the milestone for stickers and socks?
 
it's only half official, 100k
there was a 200k package in the past but I think they stopped that for good
100k was on hiatus too, it took more than a year after I reached 100k to get the loot
 
1:38 PM
I got a shirt, travel mug and hat in December from Stack Exchange for being a mod -- the merch was nice.
 
the mug would have been nice but I understand if they prefer international orders to contain less perishable goods (though it arrived in a honkin' big box via DHL anyway)
 
Back to my thoughts about SO mod candidacy... How much should it matter if a user shows significant contributions in other non-SO SE communities? I think showing broader understanding of SE and smaller communities can help the user to be "more understanding". Thoughts?
 
@mickmackusa they keep the rep if the answer scored >=3 and the post existed for more than 60 days (source)
 
I got a koozy, shirt and something else for knowing how many coins there were in the pig
That was fun
 
@blackgreen thanks, hope that's authoritative still
 
1:46 PM
I've empirically verified that when deleting questions with answers that do or don't qualify
 
the basic dichotomy between depth and breadth is always challenging to resolve with a "one size fits all" answer; if the community currently lacks that sort of expertise then it's obviously more valuable than if not
 
@mickmackusa personally I think this should be definitely brought up by candidates when answering the questionnaire, but not made an official metric
where with "answering the questionnaire" I really mean "writing a nomination post"
 
Some candidates don't bother to show statistics, but I love seeing statistics. And if everyone has the exact same formatted statistics, it makes it easier for me to compare and evaluate my preferred candidate.
People can fudge the truth with creative speak and angles, and some people skill the about me pitch by nominating at the last minute. I'd like to see more standardised info on all candidates.
 
making contributions to other SE sites a conspicuous — even official — metric would be unfair to those who have a "laser-like focus". You're talking about SO mod candidacy after all
of course if you have diamond moderator experience on other sites, that is an added value which you as a candidate should bring up
should -> might want to
it's also true that other SE sites may or may not require different moderation practices
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels yes
 
@Dharman: good. Thanks, then I won't duplicate the effort
 
2:55 PM
Binning user-targeted discussion; we don't discuss specific user behavior here.
@tripleee That is certainly still authoritative and, to my knowledge, still working. No guarantee on SE devs not breaking it with all the changes they are making these days, though.
@mickmackusa Requiring users to fill out a form during nomination which has a box for answering each moderator Q&A that was selected (and setting rules that the answers can't just be links to past election nominations' answers) would help. I also think it would help for there to be a period of time (1-7 days) between nomination closing and the beginning of the voting period (as do many others; there were several requests for that feature/rule change on MSE and MSO).
If you haven't, I recommend finding those and upvoting them/adding an answer in support.
@mickmackusa significant contributions on other network sites is a bonus, but not a requirement. I think the reverse (significant contributions on SO when applying for moderator on another site) are substantially more important/influential, since SO is just orders of magnitude harder to moderator/curate than pretty much any other site.
For example, any multi-year regular/veteran of SOCVR, SOBotics, or Charcoal would probably be one of the best moderators any other site could hope to have, for the most part (there are some parts of moderation, like interpersonal behavior/bed-side manner, so to speak, that can't directly/fully be learned just by doing user moderation tasks/looking for spam or R/A content.
 
@TylerH It's authoritative because it's not UI but in the database
 
@AdrianMole A Haskell SME moderator would just spend all their time in the review queues; everyone knows Haskell exists purely to create good review queue audits
 
3:29 PM
 
3:42 PM
@yivi What is opinion-based about 'making an event asynchronous'?
 
Thoughts, how successful would /in \w+ language/ be at catching closeworthy posts?
(excluding "the")
 
@TylerH I posted a comment explaining why it would be OB. How to accomplish the task is matter of design. There is no set specific, non-opinionated way to accomplish what the OP wants.
 
Many, many questions have more than one way to solve them... that doesn't make them opinion-based. How-to questions, especially, are open-ended/answerable in a number of ways by their very structure (OP doesn't know how, or they'd do it one particular way already).
4
 
3:52 PM
@TylerH Again, this is a matter of design. The old "too broad" would fit as well, although we do not have that close reason anymore. I stand with my close vote and cv-request. It would be the same as "how do you send an email with X". Well, it depends. The question is simply not constrained enough.
 
@yivi Well, we do still have "Too Broad", it is just called "Needs Focus" now.
But lacking constraints is fair enough; that's treading into SME territory so I'll defer you on that one
 
4:51 PM
@JohnDvorak it seems like it would get so many posts that it would be hard to filter out the ones that are not close-worthy
in terms of sheer volume
 
 
1 hour later…
6:14 PM
Why do tag wiki/excerpt suggested edits take way longer than just regular edits?
 
It requires more reputation to review them and it also requires more expertise.
 
6:42 PM
@MFerguson only 20k+ users can review them, unfortunately for the editor
I don't think SME plays a huge role for the most part. The vast majority I see are adding a description to the excerpt or minor edits/updates to the main wiki
and many of the big ones have groups of users/communities that already maintain them
 
Something else that slows it down is checking to make sure it's not copied content. Lots of folks will just copy-pasta stuff for wikis and excerpts. Time consuming to ensure it's not
 
7:00 PM
I can smell corporate marketing speak a mile away, so 50-75% of copied content is easy to spot.
Apologies in advance if anyone in the room writes marketing copy...
 
7:30 PM
@Ruli it looks like it. At least OpenGL programming is and that problem seems a programming issue (aka how do I get messages on the right (UI) thread).
not an awesome question but ...
 
oki, I have no experience with OpenGL so I better asked :)
 
8:18 PM
out of votes
 
time to delete some stuff
 
8:43 PM
@TylerH tag wiki/excerpts suggested edits can be reviewed by 5k+ users (still a smaller pool than 2k+)
 
@blackgreen Hm, I thought it was 20k?
 
20k+ can edit without approval
 
well now that I think about it I have seen them before I hit 20k when reviewing so I guess you're right
though I wouldn't have suggested 5k as my next guess either, probably would've guessed 10k
 
I've actually wondered about this before... the answer I got (in this room) was that otherwise there would be almost nobody able to review
sort of makes sense
 
9:01 PM
@blackgreen Yeah, I think they should just raise the requirement to create a new tag
1500 is too low these days. In 2008 it was probably fine
I'd bump it up to 2500 or 3k and move the tag synonym privilege to 5k
 
@TylerH oh but there's plenty of high-rep users who add tags of questionable utility, I've seen one just yesterday
I agree that the current reputation thresholds are very low
 
Sure, but far fewer than the number of low-rep users who do it
 
1500 is definitely too low
 
9:17 PM
 
:53859920 I found a dupe for that one. Hmm Nathan was too fast in cleaning up cvpls requests I guess.
 
@blackgreen I have a better system for that: to create a tag you have to remove one.
 
just disable creating tags, we have enough
huh, that's weird. i hit an ip block
 
@KevinB Nah, just a fixed number of tags.
And the only way to go over it is to make a meta discussion :)
 
10:23 PM
 
 
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