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12:01 AM
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica you meant I guess
 
@desertnaut Yep, dumb mistake on my part
 
12:16 AM
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica I don't see why that should be deleted. It's at most wrong. I also don't see anything "inflammatory" in that answer.
 
 
2 hours later…
 
3 hours later…
sta
4:41 AM
this is NAA?
 
@sta No, it's an attempt at an answer.
 
sta
@cigien thank you
 
5:30 AM
@bad_coder Thanks. I actually saw and handled this yesterday, but forgot to reply.
 
@CodyGray np, since you rolled back the first one I thought you'd want to know about it (I was inclined to approve the suggested edit had I not checked the history.)
 
@bad_coder Yeah, the one you linked to was arguably fine. I would not be upset at anyone for approving that. I chose to reject it because it included tag usage guidance that doesn't really belong in the wiki (better in the excerpt), but it wasn't plagiarized or anything. The reason I had rejected the first one was because it used Markdown formatting in the excerpt, which doesn't render.
Overall, the suggester wasn't doing anything nefarious. It's just the result of some confusion about how the tag wiki vs. tag excerpt work, which is honestly not all that well documented or intuitive for most people.
 
@CodyGray thanks for explaining that, I was honestly at a loss to understand why you had rolled back. Reviewing tag wiki's isn't my strong suit...
 
The #1 issue with tag wiki suggestions is plagiarism. That's the major offense, and the one that'll get you suspended both from suggesting and from reviewing. So, when reviewing tag wikis, that's what you should look out for. (Googling a few key phrases is generally sufficient to catch this.)
2
The other issues are a bit more nuanced. In excerpts, watch out for: (1) use of Markdown, which won't render; (2) defining only what the tag is, without giving any usage guidance; (3) arbitrarily choosing a definition for a tag that is inherently ambiguous (needs disambiguation on Meta first, not a unilateral edit by a single person); and (4) generally just being "TL;DR".
In tag wiki bodies, it's much more open-ended about what is allowed to be put there, and those should generally just be reviewed like normal answers, based on their overall quality (content, formatting, presentation, relevance, etc.). Aside from plagiarism, there's not much specifically that you have to worry about. Technically, usage guidance should go in the excerpt, but lengthy or complicated usage guidance is appropriate in the long-form wiki.
 
@CodyGray no wonder I've had a hard time wrapping my head around it... If it takes such a long explanation that's a lot of chained criteria. (Reviewing 1 tag-wiki can take lots of time and is almost like deciding if an article is sufficiently accurate, it's never an easy decision).
I'll bookmark the explanation for future reference.
 
5:45 AM
Yeah... It's probably a bad design that they are thrown in with normal suggested edits, because they are completely different and should be reviewed with a different thought process.
3
 
@CodyGray I posted this FR but it didn't get much support.
bed time o/
 
 
4 hours later…
10:35 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
11:47 AM
What about this question (NAA NATO)? It looks like it may be too broad or need details and most answers are kind of link only (except perhaps for the one with score 1 and the 0-scored answer suggesting docker).
 
+2 answer saying "can you add some details to your question?" That's a clue...
 
That's why I'm asking.
 
12:20 PM
 
@Dharman Maybe delete it? "Addunique:true" was already suggested by the slightly earlier, other answer.
 
Yeah, if they hadn't been posted at similar times, I would have just said to edit the link to the documentation into the other answer.
 
1:24 PM
?
 
@SurajRao box
 
ah ok..
 
is very versatile, as expected ;)
 
so is
 
2:09 PM
Are this and this the 'same' user posting duplicate questions?
 
I don't doubt that
 
stackoverflow.com/a/70144197/4826457 can this be edited? looks like a response to a comment
@AdrianMole yeah... likely. the usernames are similar
 
@SurajRao Looks like could be edited, but would it be a complete answer? I think it could be an edit to the answer, but it doesn't stand as an answer
 
2:29 PM
@AdrianMole Yes, please flag it. Mods delete them
 
2:41 PM
@Dharman OK - Flagged the later post for mod attention. Unfortunately, though, I came across that later post first (in FQ), so I actually reviewed t as "Looks OK". So, mods can kill two birds with one button: (1) delete the duplicate question/account; (2) offer the Mole a review vacation. :)
 
3:51 PM
 
stackoverflow.com/posts/45122544/revisions this is old vandalism isnt it? NATO
 
They basically rolled back to revision 1. The code was added as per others' request and they may felt it was useless any way? Is that vandalisme, I am not sure
 
4:06 PM
The question is arguably more useful without the code anyway.
5
 
^^ Can we get framed copies of that?
 
In the last few days I've dupe-hammered a couple of C questions that were nothing more than a code dump, marking them duplicates of the canonical "What is a debugger and how can it help me?" and "How do I debug a C program?". Is that a good close reason or should I prefer voting to close as "Needs more clarity"? I think it's fine since roomba should just wipe those out in 30d, right?
 
@MarcoBonelli I wouldn't advertise the fact that you're using that "RTFM" post as a dupe target.
 
Duplicates are not roomba-ed
 
@Vega ok, that I did not know... then you answered my question. Better to vote for needs more clarity.
 
4:12 PM
Better not to dupe-hammer posts that aren't duplicates.
 
@MarcoBonelli Err... no. That's not a good thing. Close-voting is not an "all's well that ends deleted" proposition. You should be casting close votes that accurately represent the nature of the question. Unless the person is asking for help and/or a tutorial on using a debugger, then their question is not a duplicate of that question. While you might link to it in a comment when voting to close the question as being "unclear" or "too broad", it is not a duplicate of some "RTFM" question.
 
@AdrianMole I've seen code dump questions being closed as dupe of the canonical a bunch of times, that's why I thought it was ok.
 
@CodyGray I hope not wooden frames ;)
 
If it's truly nothing more than a code dump, then there are very low odds that it is a duplicate. It should definitely be closed as "unclear" or "too broad". Otherwise, if there's any clue at all, then it's highly likely that the question is still a duplicate, based on my experience with C and C++ questions (many beginners make the same mistakes, over and over, and if they're making the same mistakes as another question, then it could certainly be a true duplicate).
 
@CodyGray well they are asking us to debug their 200-line program... so they kinda are asking how to debug. Anyway I get it now.
 
4:15 PM
At the risk of up-staging a moderator: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=51060791#51060791
 
I did not know that dupes are never deleted even with no answers though, that's not specified in the roomba FAQ
 
Nah, they're not. They're asking you to debug it for them. That isn't a duplicate. And it wouldn't be off-topic, except for the fact that (A) there's no explanation of what the code is meant to do (unclear), (B) there's no minimal reproducible example and/or no expected inputs/outputs and/or no error message, and (C) it's too broad (needs more focus).
@MarcoBonelli That's not the real reason. The real reason is, the propose duplicate is not a duplicate.
 
@MarcoBonelli I think the 30 day reason does work, unless that changed. From memory though, might be mistaken.
 
@CodyGray yeah I get it. You think "needs more focus" is appropriate? Because I forgot that the user sees when somebody closes as "needs more focus". If they see the same text that is under the flag which barely says "This question currently includes multiple questions in one" then I'd rather not use that.
s/that/what
 
@MarcoBonelli The user sees the reason you choose. The only thing they don't see are the names of the close voters. We still want the closure reason to be accurate.
 
4:19 PM
@CodyGray well "needs details" it is then. Thank you.
 
Or lacks MCVE, if it's actually a coding question, and it actually lacks an MCVE or any of the rest of the information there. That's a very good close reason to use because it actually gives actionable advice. I wish the rest of the close reasons did the same.
Biggest issue with the "lacks MCVE" close reason is when people use it on questions that aren't asking for debugging help. But that doesn't apply in this case; you've pretty much already stated up front that the question you have in mind are, in fact, asking for debugging help of a giant code dump.
 
Yeah it's been 2 years and I still cannot manage to not get confused every single time I open that close vote dialog... dammit.
 
I would love to simplify that thing and improve the close reasons.
 
It would be nice if some of the 'feedback' comments from the new FQ queue were implemented as close reasons. Particularly the "too broad" and "question has too much code".
 
4:25 PM
^ Fishing for upvotes?
 
I have no idea why the ever decided to turn "too broad" into "it asks multiple questions", that reason is almost never applicable correctly, and "too broad" questions are very often 1) very clear 2) about programming 3) not seeking recommendations 4) not opinion based... so MEH
 
@AdrianMole Yesssssss, I need more rep on Meta
@MarcoBonelli I honestly think it was just confusion. They were trying to "simplify" the explanations/guidance, and they didn't realize how important the two different parts of it actually were.
 
Maybe edit to add the new feedback canned-comment: Please trim your code to make it easier to find your problem. Follow these guidelines to create a minimal reproducible example.
 
@CodyGray you would think that if it was just confusion they would have realized it by now :')
 
@MarcoBonelli Oh, well, that assumes people who have the humility to admit their mistakes and the ability to correct them...
 
4:27 PM
@CodyGray that "too broad" reason you list here is exactly what I would want to have
 
@AdrianMole Maybe don't have new canned comments? On this note, I've found my spirit animal in the form of an Ask Ubuntu moderator who also hates these canned comments with a fiery passion. :-)
@MarcoBonelli Yeah, to be honest, it's exactly how I and many other people currently use the "needs more focus" close reason. It's just... unfortunate, because that's not exactly the guidance that is given the asker of the question.
 
@CodyGray I also use it like that from time to time but it just feels bad
But does the asker see exactly those words? Or are they rephrased in the box that appears on their question (that only OP can see) before it gets closed? That's something I forgot.
 
Totally feel you on that. I also end up picking the "unclear" close reason the vast majority of the time, simply because I feel the explanation is a better fit, if only because of its general vagueness. And that's a real shame.
@MarcoBonelli Different words than you see in the close/flag dialog.
 
Oh my, that's even more confusing because I have no idea what ends up being seen by OP...
Those aren't listed anywhere, are they?
 
@CodyGray I really want to edit out that "Thanks a lot, friends. :)" from your linked post. But ... maybe the Ubuntu folks aren't as formal as the SO crew.
 
4:31 PM
@AdrianMole I think, yeah. And also, it's Meta. And also, she's apparently just nicer than me. I said she was my spirit animal, not my clone. :-) But, mainly, she's trying to persuade people on the site to do something (or, more accurately, not do something), and that's an uphill battle. One needs all the reinforcements available.
 
@AdrianMole it's a meta post, you know, some people even dare to use emojis in those
 
@MarcoBonelli Yes, they are, in fact: stackoverflow.com/help/closed-questions (the quoted bits)
 
@CodyGray Oh, those are what OP sees? Ok. So for "Needs more focus" it's exactly the same.
Thanks again
 
@MarcoBonelli Oh, maybe it is, then. I was thinking that the guidance shown in the close dialog was a bit different, but that might just be for the site-specific reasons. I can never remember exactly.
 
Yeah, close vote reasons are just a rollercoaster of emotions
 
4:34 PM
Heh
They're not supposed to be that way... They're supposed to be guidance that we provide to the asker on how to improve the question, if they so desire, in order to make it comply with our admittedly unique and stringent requirements.
 
And, IIRC, custom closed reasons aren't displayed; just a generic, "doesn't meet a Stack Overflow guideline."
 
@CodyGray yeah that'd make sense, wouldn't it... :')
@AdrianMole well thankfully they post an automatic comment
 
OK - I forgot about that.
 
@Vega @MarcoBonelli Questions closed as a duplicate are Roomba'd, but only if unanswered. The 30-day and 365-day Roomba tasks don't care about the post being closed, let alone the reason for closure.
If you're interested, I wrote the userscript Roomba Forecaster, which will indicate on each question page the answers to "When will the question be Roomba'ed? If it won't, why?"
 
@Makyen oh ok, that was my understanding. Makes sense.
@Makyen beautiful, thank you!
 
4:39 PM
np. I hope it helps. :)
 
Presumably, though, if a closed dupe has a high view count (i.e. is a good signpost), then the Roomba won't eat it.
 
@AdrianMole doesn't that rule only apply to meta?
 
Dunno. I thought views were taken into consideration by the Roomba script.
 
@AdrianMole The reason displayed in the close box/banner is "This question does not appear to be about programming within the scope defined in the help center." We don't want a user's arbitrarily typed text to appear as if it is an endorsed system message. If you've seen some of the wildly ridiculous custom close reasons that users type, you'd understand why. Heck, I regularly see people typing answers as their explanation for why it's off-topic.
 
^ Agreed.
 
4:41 PM
Userscripts aside, the rules are here, for those who want to apply them the old-fashioned way: stackoverflow.com/help/roomba
 
Hah: has view count <= the age of the question in days times 1.5
 
Yeah that's what I've been reading, and seems like the view count only comes into play for meta
OH, man, it says "isn't" not "it's" nevermind me...
 
hey @CodyGray can I ask a question why my last flag has been declined? It contained a link to join a facebook group but it was onyl considered low quality not spam.
 
@AdrianMole you you were right here then
 
@tacoshy Um, you mean the spam flag? Well, perhaps part of the problem was that you edited out the spam, so the moderator who reviewed your flag may not have even noticed that the post contained that link. You shouldn't edit spam; just flag it.
But... I don't actually think that the post was spam. They were including the link as a "live demo" or something like that, not trying to spam it: "here is the link to the video that has the issue: <link>" They probably didn't realize that you had to join the Facebook group in order to see the link. (Or, I guess that's the case. I obviously haven't tried clicking on it, either.)
 
4:46 PM
@Makyen Oh, thank you! Even with positif score the 30-day rule works? There were a rule for comment count I remember
 
Ah thank you, so a flag does not log the information when it was flagged. That link really was justa dvertisement to an arabic facebook group. no video or other details.
 
@MarcoBonelli Duplicates also Roomba. Every question without an answer and a negative score Roombas. In case of duplicates, it takes 30 days or so. What's special about duplicates though is that an answer prevents Roomba'ing. Score then does not matter, so could have a duplicate questions with answer both with 100 downvotes and 0 upvotes, and still no Roomba.
 
@tacoshy Flags do have timestamps associated with them, and moderators are warned that a post has been edited since it was flagged, but it takes extra work to go look at the revision history to match up the time of the flag with the state of the post at that time. Some mods are more diligent/disciplined about doing this than others.
 
@JeanneDark oh yeah I may have seen a couple of those odd cases
 
Anyway, that is mostly missing the point. The point is that you shouldn't edit spam, if it's actually spam that you think needs to be flagged and deleted as spam. And the secondary point is that I really don't think that question was spam. I think, in context, it was legitimately trying to ask a question. It just didn't even come close to meeting our minimum expectations for how to do so, which is why it needed to be closed.
 
4:49 PM
@CodyGray what is your recommendation then? leave the link in even if it is clearly advertisment only?
 
I am not sure how I can be any more clear than my last message. If you legitimately think it's spam and the entire post needs to go, then don't edit it. If you don't, and you can "salvage" the post by editing it, then you should edit it. In this case, I don't think the post was legitimately spam, so I don't have a specific issue with your edit.
@JeanneDark That's nice... maybe we need to get that featured for a couple of days. I've been seeing a lot of people who have been making this mistake during the ongoing spam wave. Unfortunately, we had two awesome mods who decided to step down, and they are stealing the spotlight. :-)
 
I see thank you for the link. I don't remeber which mod it was. He said back then it would be OK to remove links that are obviosly only advertisement or harmful.
 
Maybe only if you don't think it's actually spam, like just some signature or so.
 
If you can salvage the post by editing it, then you should do so.
 
4:54 PM
@Vega There are multiple criteria which a question has to meet for each Roomba task. It gets a bit complicated to determine if a question qualifies and when it will be deleted. All I was saying was that the 30-day and 365-day Roomba tasks don't look at if the question is closed. [Note: the Roomba page has been edited to make it appear that the 30-day task does look at closure for migrations, but those are the separate migration tasks, which have two different names, but are also on 30-days.]
 
@tacoshy If you're flagging as spam or R/A, don't edit. If you can edit to make it a post that shouldn't be deleted (i.e. the thing that might be spam was incidental to the post and it doesn't appear that spam/R/A was the purpose of the post), then edit it into shape and don't flag as spam or R/A.
If it's something that's appropriate to edit (as described here) and it's something which should still be brought to the moderators' attention, then use an "in need of moderator intervention" flag and explain the issue. For example, I've done that in some cases where the R/A content was particularly egregious in an otherwise good post and the user should get a mod message about posting such content; or, if there's some links that are effectively spam and a pattern needs to be addressed; etc.
 
5:58 PM
stackoverflow.com/questions/70145724/… Is there a better duplicate for this? The question is constantly asked but it's hard for me to find dupes and none of them ever has a particularly high score. (The general form is "why doesn't return x allow me to use x in the calling context?")
 
@KarlKnechtel I would ask that in the pyton room (here you find peps in all languages mostly adapt to evalute the other close reasons)
Anyway I would not worry too much if someone finds a better one they can add it..
 
6:26 PM
@JohnDvorak well, this should definitely have been flagged, not CV'd
 
6:52 PM
 
7:13 PM
@Tomerikoo I don't think that's correct. Adapting an existing solution to work for a different language version is an acceptable answer, regardless of how few characters were changed. The user even attributed the other answer.
 
I don't know. I got to this page actually looking for an answer, and to me that answer was a waste of time because I had to check if there is actually some change using some new features only to find out it has no meaning at all. Having a single answer easily supporting both versions is much better for future readers
 
I'm not a Python SME, but in a C++ context, say, that would be a perfectly acceptable answer. I certainly wouldn't delete a posted answer just because I could edit an existing answer to use a later language version (and that's always possible given that C++ is backwards compatible.) I don't even know if the changes you made will even work across python2 and python3; I thought () mattered in print, but I could be wrong.
 
@Tomerikoo While I agree a visible edit is more useful, I also agree with @cigien that it is similarly acceptable to post an updated answer.
 
... off to find some old, highly-scored C++ questions, to post C++20 answers...
 
@cigien Again, I didn't really change it in any way. In a Python 2 context the parenthesis simply do nothing. In Python 3 it makes it a function call. As I said, our goal is to create a quality repository of questions and answers. To me, that answer was a distraction and a waste of time...
It didn't incorporate some new language features to take the same idea and make it better. It literally just added parenthesis which I could do fine by myself and this is why I think this shouldn't be an answer at all, rather an edit
 
7:31 PM
@Tomerikoo It does also add f-strings instead of the outdated c-style string interpolation with %
 
@HenryEcker Again, a distraction from the real matter of the question... But ok I feel like I'm a minority here. Should I rollback my edit of the other answer? Because now that answer is basically a duplicate
 
@Tomerikoo I agree that it's not a useful answer. I just don't know that its a deletable answer (others may disagree and that's fine too). I think your edit is fine it improved formatting, spelling, updated to python3 etc.
 
@Tomerikoo If the code in the other answer wouldn't have compiled in Python3 then posting another answer which does is acceptable. Sure, an edit to the existing answer would be preferable in cases where the changes are minimal, but to do so after the fact, and to then delete the newer answer is not ok, IMO. This is in general, for future questions; in this particular case, I'll leave it to y'all SMEs to decide the disposition of this post.
 
@cigien Compiled! What's that? XD
 
Oops, "interpreted" I guess. Shows how little Python I know :)
 
7:37 PM
Compiled is what the Python interpreter is.
 
Again, I don't see any issues downvoting a post which is not useful. Nor do I see any issue in the edit made to the to the top rated post.
I do not see a reason to delete a bad answer to a question, as it does (A) answer the question, and (B) provide at least 1 unique python3 feature. Again, others may disagree and I'm okay with that.
 
@cigien I can see why that looks bad... I just always try to keep the goal of this site in mind which is a useful repository of information. For once, I actually got to the question as a researcher looking for an answer and literally had to do a diff between the answers to see if I'm missing something. That was a waste of time, and to me this is deleteable, but that's just my opinion...
 
@AdrianMole Yes, please do :) I've found some nice gems where the solution becomes a one-liner, or much more readable, in C++20. Though it's not easy to find ones where the accepted answer has not already been updated by the author to incorporate the newer ("modern") solution. Users are annoyingly on top of things sometimes ;)
 
^ First, I'll need to learn something about C++20. :-)
 
@HenryEcker I guess that sums it up nicely. I will leave it at that (an RO can bin the request). Thanks everyone for the input
 
7:51 PM
^ cc @rene
 
 
9:19 PM
Is this opinion-based?
or "not about programming"
 
@blackgreen doesn't look like POB to me
 
10:24 PM
 

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