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12:06 AM
@DavidBuck In my opinion, the rule about customer service questions is broadly misunderstood and inappropriately applied. Someone who is having trouble utilizing an API programmatically should be able to ask a question about it. We don't determine topicality in reverse, after looking at the answers. And it's positively silly to decide ex post facto that someone is looking for "opinions" because there is a bug in an API function.
2
This is the kind of practical programming problem that should be on-topic here. Answering it does not require any insider knowledge. They're not asking about why their app didn't get approved or something like that, which is what the customer service FAQ is trying to deal with.
 
12:30 AM
@DavidBuck I agree with Cody on this one. That's not opinion based, nor customer service. It's debatable that it has enough information for someone else to duplicate, but it looks like there's enough to me.
 
user17161735
12:45 AM
@Makyen hello
 
user17161735
@Makyen can you help me with the extension dev?
 
@Arcanis-TheOmnipotent I'm kind-of busy, and have been all day.
 
user17161735
@Makyen ok
 
1:27 AM
@RyanM: for what it's worth, you would have made a great moderator. I do hope that you re-run in future elections
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Thank you very much! I really genuinely appreciate the number of people who've reached out with messages like this, as well as the >4000 people who picked me as their first choice.
(and who voted for me generally, but I don't know how many did that because I'm not very good at Pandas and haven't had a chance to read how to do it)
And of course, I wish both new moderators all the best.
 
@RyanM I voted for you. I wasn't surprised you lost, unfortunately (first run and not a 40/40) but it bodes well for next year
 
@Machavity I wasn't surprised I lost, either. I was a bit surprised at who I lost to, but sometimes that's how it goes.
Currently, I think I'll probably be back to try again in the future. But of course, the future is full of surprises.
 
2:42 AM
@Makyen This is my mantra now. I think I need to steal it. :-)
 
@CodyGray :) I feel I could probably expand that to at least "I'm kind-of busy, and have been all decade." :)
 
"I'm extremely busy, and will be for the foreseeable future."
@RyanM That "surprise" being... you might not need to run when you get called up as the runner-up? :-)
 
@CodyGray Yep, commonly a very true statement. Although, I tend to have a fairly high bar for what I describe as "extremely busy", at least for myself. :)
 
Me too. Yet...
 
@CodyGray That would be a surprise. Not an unwelcome one, though :-)
It would also mean we'd see @Dharman as a moderator too, if that happened. Which would also be a welcome surprise.
 
2:56 AM
@RyanM I also voted for you and hope you run again in future (if you're still interested). And whether in jest or not, I happen to know a thing or two about data aggregation so... Here are the number of people who voted for you {1: 4161, 2: 4684, 3: 4425, 4: 4907, 5: 2778} (The key is the position (between the 5 votable candidates) and the number of votes within position)
 
Interesting! Thanks for sharing that bit of data trivia!
 
3:11 AM
@HenryEcker It was not in jest! That's quite interesting, thanks :-)
 
The only thing Ryan can do in Pandas is make awesome avatars.
 
Ha...that was Pillow, not Pandas ;-)
 
More P things I've never heard of!
 
I've also used numpy/pandas for Advent of Code, but it's been long enough that I'd have to relearn it.
 
@RyanM np. I was already playing with the ballots data. If anyone wants to know anything else I'll see what I can do :)
 
3:16 AM
I'd like to know who voted by actually evaluating each candidate individually, without just blindly going by the candidate score.
But I don't suppose you can do that.
 
Ah. Alas omniscience is just a touch beyond me.
 
No worries; I'll check back in a couple of weeks.
 
@CodyGray Sounds good. I'm sure I'll be able to all the components in place in that time frame. You wouldn't happen to have any eye of newt laying around?
 
I think I have some whole newts in my backyard. You're welcome to harvest the eyes. Avoid the blind salamanders. They're not newts, and their eyes may not help you to see much.
 
Perfect perfect. Seems like everything's on track then XD
 
3:31 AM
@CodyGray Well, one interesting tidbit: when I was eliminated, 1645 went to Dharman, 1410 went to Zoe, and 1156 went to Stephen.
Which says a couple things: 1) People who like me narrowly prefer Dharman as their next choice, though not by a majority; 2) Despite not having filled out the questionnaire, Stephen nonetheless got a very sizeable chunk of these voters who we know had to have looked past the candidate score.
Also interesting: Of votes redistributed when Daniel was eliminated, more went to me than anyone else.
 
4:00 AM
Myself, I based my moderator voting by reviewing activity on meta, especially answers, but also comments -- did they seem fair-minded, did they display equanimity, wisdom?
 
@RyanM Of the people who voted for Daniel first -> 23.76% (605 / 2546) voted for you second, 22.07% (562 / 2546) voted for Zoe second, 21.48% (547 / 2546) voted for Stephen second, and 21.09% (537 / 2546) voted for Dharman second.
@RyanM After your elimination 34.52% (1645 / 4766) of your votes went to Dharman third, 29.58% (1410 / 4766) of your votes went to Zoe third, 24.26% (1156 / 4766) of your votes went to Stephen Rauch third
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels That sounds like a lot of work! Maybe next year you can just take the shortcut of voting on rep instead.
 
@CodyGray Still a fan of the "avatar colorfulness" metric, myself. Much easier, no need to hunt through all those numbers to find the right one.
 
I really like the election 13 page now. The large usercards showing the users I ranked as my top 3 are quite beautiful with all the colors.
 
Unless, of course, you mean voting by network rep... ;-)
 
4:11 AM
-1
Q: Should we burninate [zoe]?

Martes BerkeleyI was looking for our new moderator, Zoe when I found the tag zoe itself! It only has one question with the following tag wiki. Zoë is an open source tool for generating spritesheet images and frame data from SWF files, and part of the CreateJS suite. According to the official website of Zoë, t...

 
@Burnination-Feed I appreciate that Cody had already done everything I was going to do 10-15 seconds before I got to each page I was going to do it on.
 
Uh, I didn't think that's how you turn Zoe into a diamond...
 
She's already turned into a diamond. And you can't get rid of the diamond that easily.
 
4:55 AM
 
5:52 AM
^^^ should I have just del-pls'd that to start? I thought about doing so.
 
I don't think you can, per the rules, but don't quote me on it.
Only mods can delete without closing, so it'd be a weird request. If you wanted to do that, you'd need to just mod-flag. Which... might be reasonable, given how old that was and how long it'd stuck around unhandled.
 
Got it. I expected it to get deleted with attention in this room.
 
6:09 AM
Was the mod election determined by rep points?
 
Why do the mods in the chat have double diamonds? One on the left and one on the right.
 
Gotta be a userscript you have installed.
 
And annoyingly for my OCD they're different sized diamonds. :D
 
@DanielWiddis it's so that your 3d glasses work properly.
 
damn userscripts
 
6:10 AM
@mickmackusa It seems so. More precisely, it seems to have been decided by the candidate score, which is 50% rep. The two candidates with the top "candidate score" clearly won.
@DanielWiddis Yeah. The "native" diamond in chat is actually a relatively new feature, so there were userscripts floating around before that added a diamond.
 
I need a userscript to tell me which userscript is adding the diamond.
 
@DanielWiddis sounds like the start of spiralling into insanity :)
 
You should have relatively few userscripts running in chat. At least I do, far fewer than on normal site pages.
 
I have 7 active and none obvious. 3 iterations of binary search should find it.
 
for 7 candidates... I'd have thought a linear search would be better :)
 
6:15 AM
OK, narrowed it down to one of two! :)
 
Look for one by Scratte?
 
Nah, I have one installed that does it too.
 
Yeah... think Scratte had one that also did different colours for mods or something? (or was that someone else's script?)
 
It's the one for this room, the "Unclosed Review"
 
No, Scratte definitely had the one that turned mods colors. From earlier in the election chat
 
6:15 AM
IIRC at one point I had people with 3 diamonds in some places.
 
3 diamonds? That's just greedy... :p
 
I mean, I'm happy to take any extras off your hands...
 
Hahahaa
 
I'll check the back room to see if we have any extras lying around
 
@DanielWiddis That would be the Unclosed Request Review Script (URRS). It's an option which you can turn off from the URRS' options page. It used to be that SE didn't put diamonds on moderators in chat, so the URRS added them. I should update it such that when enabled it replaces the diamonds which SE adds, as the ones SE now adds can result in what I consider sub-optimal display under some conditions.
 
6:20 AM
Thanks Makyen. Yeah, I was about to go peruse the options page but was being too entertained here.
 
Or just update it so that the additional bling defaults to "off".
 
@Makyen Hmm, I see nothing in the options page.
 
@CodyGray That's a given. If it's not updated such that it replaces it (which I do for myself), then it would be a feature which should just be removed. If SE added the diamond in a way that looked good all the time, then I wouldn't bother.
@DanielWiddis It would be the "Show ♦ for moderators, when they are the author of a message." option, which is the third line in the "Chat page" section.
 
I've never seen any display issues with the SE-added diamond.
 
@Makyen Which would be pretty obvious if I saw it but I don't. I have version 2.1.0, is that current? Is there a beta somewhere I should be using?
I don't even see a Chat Page section. Although I'm often told I can't see things that are right in front of me.
 
6:28 AM
@DanielWiddis That's the current version. There is no beta version. My personal version is a bit different, but not by much for this script. This option hasn't changed for a long time.
 
could a badger or mod please edit the duplicates for stackoverflow.com/questions/68463223/… to remove stackoverflow.com/questions/68411381/… (the second one) so that it can be del-pls:ed?
 
@tripleee I think we should merge it, so as not to lose the answer?
 
@CodyGray hmmm, fine? the question on the latter is really poor IMHO
 
This question seems worse. But yeah. None of the questions are great.
On the other hand, this is a common point of confusion for programmers, and so I'm not particularly interested in removing all traces of similar questions from the system, even though they are arguably general-computing.
 
@DanielWiddis Is the entire options page visible when you open it? That modal popup isn't remotely responsive.
 
6:31 AM
@Makyen No, I have no "options" page per se. Is my ad blocker blocking it maybe?
In Tampermonkey I see "editor, settings, externals"
 
@tripleee Handled.
 
@DanielWiddis There should be a little "gear" button down in the line of buttons next to the chat input area. It should be nearly a circle. Alternately, there's a larger 'options (edit "tags" list)' button on the request review pages.
 
Oh! On the actual page, not in Tampermonkey! D'oh!
 
It should open a large modal popup, which should be ... very noticeable.
 
Yes. Found it. Have only single diamonds now.
 
6:35 AM
@DanielWiddis Ah... yes. I'm sorry for the confusion.
 
The smaller ones on the right.
 
@DanielWiddis Great.
@DanielWiddis Yep, those are the ones which SE adds.
 
In my defense, the little gear icon is so tiny I can't even see it's a gear
 
@CodyGray thanks!
 
@CodyGray The last time I had wasn't disabling/removing the SE provided ones, there were still some issues under some conditions with some names (i.e. the SE ones mostly worked and looked OK, but not all the time). I didn't like the issues and prefer the diamonds on the left anyway from an aesthetics POV, so just removed the SE provided ones to stick with the ones which are added by the URRS and/or the chat modifications script I use.
@DanielWiddis Yeah, it's a bit small and not very noticeable. The button on the request review pages is substantially larger with normal text. If I were to change it, I'd just put opening the options popup into the userscript manager's menu now that Greasemonkey supports that (support for it was only recently re-added; Tampermonkey and Violentmonkey have continued to support it).
 
6:45 AM
It is indeed, thanks.
 
np. I'm sorry it was confusing.
 
Nah, should have been obvious, I was just looking too intently in the wrong place. I think it's called "male pattern blindness"
(no offense or sexism implied, self deprecation intended)
 
@DanielWiddis I must admit I don't recall hearing "male pattern blindness" used that way. :;
 
It's usually when my wife asks me to fetch the X from the fridge and I open it and the X is right in front of me and I say "Huh? I can't see it."
 
It's a pun on "male pattern baldness", of course. I have not heard anyone else use it. I think it's clever.
 
6:52 AM
It is.
 
bacon baguette with a bit of friend onion time... hungry puppy... bbias
 
friend onion? Are you cavorting with vegetables now?
 
chuckles... not the worst typo I've made... hints at another cup of coffee required I guess :p
 
Got me hungry enough to get up and snack myself. ;)
 
6:58 AM
Was supposed to be fried onions, I suppose? Do you fry them yourself?
 
I suppose this question could probably be asked as a Meta question, but what do the weights in the ballots represent?
 
@DaneBrouwer Can you be more specific?
 
@CodyGray well... unless I'm missing a trick - they don't fry themselves?
 
Sure, if you got to opavote.com/results/5141741653983232, and then view ballots - you'll see a weight is assigned to each ballot. I was curious what the weight represents
 
@JonClements I think you can buy them pre-fried. You know, like battered and fried. That's a rather different thing, though, than pan-fried.
 
7:00 AM
@DaneBrouwer If you voted for someone who has more votes than they need, their weight is reduced (a 'keep' score) and the rest of your fractional vote is applied to your next ranked candidate
 
That makes sense, many thanks @DanielWiddis
 
@CodyGray oh... yeah... you can buy them in freezer bags, pre-diced and all that, and that's convenient, but - that's just cheating (you still need to shove 'em in a frying pan - but you just don't need to take an actual onion and chop it up)
 
I guess if you're frying up bacon already, there's no point
I am also lazy, though...
 
@DanielWiddis I'm pretty sure it's the number of people who cast that ballot.
cc @DaneBrouwer ^
 
@DaneBrouwer Or what Ryan just said ^^^
 
7:02 AM
That is what I thought, too.
 
Because the weight of the ballot with STV doesn't get reduced, it just gets split between candidates.
 
sorry, didn't click the extra link
I think it's what I said but multiplied by all the people who voted the same as you :)
 
Wow, I don't even recognize @WiktorStribiżew anymore, looking like a human instead of a colorful geometric pattern!
 
7:36 AM
@Dharman or maybe it could be useful to programmers... What do you think?
 
@tripleee There is nothing unclear there in stackoverflow.com/q/69734243. If I could close it with 3 close reasons: 2 duplicates and 1 typo, it would be correct closure.
 
@WiktorStribiżew I picked Needs More Focus for that reason. There's a lot going on there.
I concur that it's clear, though.
 
@RyanM The question is about a single pattern, with the efforts provided and described. I can't see how this needs more focus.
 
@WiktorStribiżew I edited to clarify and I still could not understand exactly what they want; I suppose you might be able to guess, but that is still IMHO unclear
and if that's really all they need help with it's basically a duplicate of "what's the difference between square brackets and round parentheses"
 
@tripleee Actually + What special chars need to be escaped + Typo since 11 should be replaced with 13.
 
8:25 AM
@blackgreen This close reason is invalid. It is not a debugging question, and it therefore does not need an MCVE. MCVEs are only required for debugging questions. That presents a problem statement, asks how to accomplish it in a particular language, and even gives an equivalent construct in another language. Seems it couldn't possibly be clearer. It certainly isn't opinion-based: they aren't asking for an opinion, they're asking for code.
@Vega What is broad about that? They seem to be asking about the issues with a particular piece of code, and it seems people have posted a reasonable answer. I cannot see any issues with that question.
 
@CodyGray Precisely, there is no issu. They say that it works, but looking for something.. well I don't see what. They have more than one question
 
They're asking if there is a technical reason why the code is flawed. Stack Overflow does not restrict itself to "debug my code" questions.
 
They asks for something that is not concise, very vast. It is not a debugging question
 
@CodyGray I'd expect such a question to include code. E.g. an attempt to solve the issue, and a description of what went wrong. Also the wording "the most efficient" lends itself to opinions
 
@blackgreen You can expect all you like, but you should express that feeling in a downvote. We do not close questions for lack of effort, nor is there any requirement whatsoever that code be included except in questions asking for help debugging code. The description of what they want is right there. There is, of course, no description of what "went wrong", because nothing "went wrong": it's not a debugging question.
Furthermore, your concern about the wording is a non-concern. No programmer wants "the least efficient" solution; they always want an efficient one. If the wording really bothers you, edit it out. But asking for something efficient does not make the question primarily opinion-based.
 
8:43 AM
@CodyGray I understand. I see that you already removed the close votes. I edited the question
 
@blackgreen Thanks. I understand a lot of people are bothered by this "most efficient" wording, but I've yet to see a case where it actually creates a problem or attracts the type of answers we're seeking to avoid with the "primarily opinion-based" close reason. As such, the edits to remove the language are almost always a reasonable compromise.
 
@CodyGray (I'm a bit out of context here but...) Just wanted to chime in that "most efficient" often bothers me. Not always but it's a common used description that is very vague. Sometimes it means "the least amount of code", sometimes "My code currently has exponential complexity, how do I reduce it", sometimes other stuff like "needs to be more maintainable and extensible". So, it's ambiguous.
If the poster didn't specify, sometimes you can guess by the context but sometimes it's just "<pasted code> I need it more efficient" which is just a bad question to begin with, it's not the phrase that breaks it.
 
@VLAZ Yes, I agree, it's ambiguous; that's true. However, most of the time it's used, it is just the asker's way of saying that they want a reasonable solution, not some sort of pathologically inefficient but theoretically feasible approach.
If someone is truly asking an optimization question, they need to be much more clear which aspects they want to optimize and how they want to focus that optimization. If that information is not provided, then the question would reasonably be closed as unclear/lacking detail.
(This wasn't an optimization question. This was a "how do I implement?" question, and for those, it's always reasonable to assume a... reasonable implementation is sought. Which is why editing to remove trigger phrases like "best" and "most" is a reasonable compromise.)
 
The main issue I have with these kind of questions is that they do not show research effort. And in [go] those questions are closed all the time. However I'm not going to crusade for this. I may take this as an opportunity to improve my usage of close votes
 
8:59 AM
Note that "does not show research effort" is a downvote reason, not a close reason. It has never been a close reason. The fact that other questions get erroneously closed is not a good justification. I'll happily educate other users, if brought to my attention.
 
9:16 AM
My perspective on "research effort": I never asked a question, I find existing SO questions via google. What I then expect from the question is to have enough details to 1) tell me if it's about the problem I also have and 2) be answerable (according to SO standards). If the OP unnecessarily adds hundreds of lines of garbage code just to satisfy some strange request to show research effort, the question is of less use to a visitor like me.
7
 
10:00 AM
Is this spam? I guess the question is likely to attract responses like that, but it doesn't really address the actual question, IMHO.
 
yes
 
Yeah - I answered my own question just after I asked it, actually.
 
Zoe
@halfer I thought I replied, but I guess I didn't. Pretty good so far, and haven't managed to do something that would annoy the devs, so I consider that a win :p
 
@Zoe What about annoying anyone else?
 
Zoe
10:17 AM
@Dharman That would probably happen anyway. Flag handling is funny like that
 
Here's a test case. It should likely be flagged as NAA but, having done so, it may well be edited into an answer by the time our lazy glorious mods get round to handling it.
 
10:42 AM
@Zoe congrats, nice jewellery!
 
Zoe
Thanks ^^
 
@SurajRao Downvote and delete, for sure. NAA ... probably not.
 
I have CV-ed a post and it did get closed. Can I now vote to reopen and CV again? The point is to swap the POB close reason with a more appropriate dupe by opening and hammering it. I'm not sure if I'd be allowed to cast a second CV again after reopening.
 
No, you can only ever cast one CV on a question. (Until you get yourself a diamond, that is.)
 
10:55 AM
@AdrianMole Unless the close vote aged away and never took effect, then you can recast after a while, can't you?
 
Hmm. I think you may be correct. Not sure I've ever checked, though.
 
That's what I thought. I just wanted to check. I'm not hugely invested, to be honest, OP seems to insist it's a dupe but I was reluctant to vote to reopen just to change the close reason. However, now it's sitting at 2 reopen votes.
@JeanneDark Not in my case, at least. My CV was 1/3 of what closed the question.
 
@VLAZ I know, it's not possible in your case.
 
Yeah, I wish we could change our CV reason. I know that you can't retract and recast a CV, just couldn't remember if a reopen affected it. Some times I'd CV for lack of details then OP updates and it turns out it's a typo or something. I'd prefer not to retract a CV just because it's slightly inaccurate in that case.
 
What are the limits on how I can cast, change, and retract votes?: "You cannot cast a close or reopen vote on a question if you've previously cast such a vote and it successfully closed or reopened the post (that is, you're listed in the post history as someone who closed or reopened the question). The two vote types are checked separately."
 
11:01 AM
I think Jeanne was 'challenging' my emphasized use of the word, "ever." However, if your CV has aged away, then it's like you never really cast it in the first place, so your status reverts to where you were before.
 
Guys, pls help me with formatting code in answer(((
 
@manro A line of three backticks before the code block and the same after it.
 
i do that
but there is a problem
in r markdown are also ```
 
You can use 4 backticks, instead - must be at least 3 and the end fence needs to be the same as the begin fence.
 
i did, but i can't submit(((
 
11:05 AM
Why can't you submit? Is there an error message?
 
Your post appears to contain code that is not properly formatted as code. Please indent all code by 4 spaces using the code toolbar button or the CTRL+K keyboard shortcut. For more editing help, click the [?] toolbar icon.
Your answer couldn't be submitted. Please see the error above.
((((
 
@JeanneDark I often find myself on the opposite of this argument. I ALWAYS expect a question to prove some semblance of effort. Especially in 2021 since there are MILLIONS of pages on SO and usually when I close, I close x5. Effort can be a code block, pseudo code, a short collection of related links, a quote from documentation, or something else. Questions that lack any shred of effort make my skin tingle - not in a good way.
 
Hmmm. Did you try adding a language ID at the end of the opening fence? Presumably, yours would be R, so open with ````r
 
I never hesitate to downvote such questions because I don't want users to think that requirements dumping is a path to privilege unlocking. I want to groom careful contributors. No effort questions for basic tasks are easy to close as a duplicate if you can isolate the problem. If you cannot find the issue, then the question is unclear.
If the question is asking for multiple basic techniques, and I don't feel like hammering it with multiple dupes that demonstrate each step, then I consider Needs More Focus to be apt. I often comment with my NMF close votes. E.g. You are asking: 1. How to decode json 2. How to access/loop an array/object 3. How to remove duplicates from an array 4. How to reindex an array 5. How to json encode an array.
 
i'm crying((( yes
 
11:09 AM
Mind you, this is not gate keeping. This is about user growth trajectory. When users learn that quality matters, Stack Overflow wins and the load for curators is lightened. This is not something that I purely impose on others. I welcome you to read my questions. You will find that all of my questions show effort. I don't ask for help until I have exhausted my personal and external resources; this is evident in my question body.
My questions often contain links -- these link offer further flow for researchers so that my question is not a dead end for those who want "more". Adding research and coding toil also adds context, but with diminishing returns -- if you have to add 300 lines of code, there is a fair chance that you have not narrowed the problem.
Ultimately, when I see a question with no effort, there is usually a legitimate reason to close it. So I think this is more about reframing the internal dialogue. When you see a no effort question, ask yourself: "Is it clear? Is it a duplicate on SO? Is it asking multiple duplicate questions?" If so, I say close it. If it is abusing volunteers as free workers -- downvote and move on.
 
@manro OK, then maybe try what the popup says. Remove the explicit code-fences, select your code block and do the Ctrl+K thing. Once you get your answer posted, you can always go back and edit it to be the way you like.
 
i did it alreadt 10 minutes((
 
{waffles}
 
BDL
@manro Could you show us your post markdown? Maybe pastebin or something similar?
 
it is big, i,m trying to divide into pieces
 
11:16 AM
@manro Do it from scratch. Put your code in an IDE editor, format it, copy-paste it in your post, select all and do ctrl+k (or press the button for formatting)
 
@mickmackusa My chat message was a kind of reply to an earlier discussion about "no research" effort as a close reason, specifically demanding some code in the question. That's why I also didn't go on explaining what research effort is necessary. For sure, it needs to be enough for the question to not have been asked before (-> duplicate) and in general to meet SO's standards, ie. is not closable with one of the actual close reasons.
 
MAN, i love you!!!
see, how many ticks there already [stackoverflow.com/questions/69735251/…
I was near the insult. I made the answer for 5 minutes and posted for 15 xD
 
BDL
@manro To be honest, I'm not surprised that the code only check was triggered. You might want to improve your answer by actually explaining what you code does and how it solves the problem
 
11:49 AM
@JeanneDark Do you know who wields this "community bot" who is making comments such as the one referenced in your cv-pls above?
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels It was probably the feedback shared in the First questions review
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels First questions queue:stackoverflow.com/posts/69736307/timeline
 
Ah, thank you!
 
Regarding my request above, my thinking is that the same rules apply to moderators as to us all.
@NathanOliver: good morning
 
12:04 PM
@HovercraftFullOfEels Playing the pumpkin's advocate, one might argue that a closed question is worth preserving if it has at least one useful answer.
 
@JeanneDark thank you for your response. It's not straightforward by any means. But in my view, the question is most definitely far off-topic, and there is the rub for me.
 
I just posted a generated request in the Python room by mistake and someone (probably unfamiliar with cv-pls) thought I was a bot :D
 
@JeanneDark: It was also locked by the same moderator which at that time, gave the question and answer a funny smell to me, that perhaps the mod should have delegated moderation to someone else rather than self-moderate a question he was directly involved in.
 
I will add that the mod was already "punished", because he had to deal with many heated comments that could be avoided if it was closed and deleted straight away
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels I agree that it's a very broad question and it's understandable it was closed for that reason, but I'm not sure it's off-topic, though.
 
12:12 PM
@JeanneDark: then perhaps it may be re-opened, but if this occurs, the same mod should most definitely not be involved in the process.
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels What I mean is that there's a difference between close-worthy for one of the standard reasons and being off-topic. Eg., a debugging question with a link to the code is not off-topic and should be closed (and left closed) until it was corrected. Off-topic is for example a question about one's favorite John Cleese movie.
 
@JeanneDark: I understand
 
So I'm not saying that in its the current form it could or should have been reopened. But one could argue that even an off-topic question with a good answer should be deleted, while a too broad or POB question etc. with a good answer may still be worth keeping, even when closed.
@HovercraftFullOfEels But I do not work with the technology involved so these are just general remarks. I can't say if they apply to this special case.
 
@JeanneDark: again, I appreciate your thoughtful remarks. I urge you to do the required actions to improve your "candidate score" since through all your thoughtful comments and actions that I've seen on this site and on meta, I know that you would make not just a good site moderator, but rather a great one. I mean this most sincerely
 
Thank you very much!
 
12:28 PM
@HovercraftFullOfEels I agree 100%. But the problem is that we don't really know what the "Candidate Score" criteria will be by the time of the next election. Catija was asking us about what we thought should contribute, in here, a week or so back. What seemed unanimous was that the current scoring method is wrong.
 
@AdrianMole: and I am glad that this is being looked into, because the score appears to have little relevance to moderator ability and more relevance to length of time spent on the site.
Well, perhaps some relevance with the badges, but not so much with the rep points.
 
At the very least, the maximum should be changed from 40 to 42! :-)
 
@DavidBuck that self answer is NAA as well
 
@SurajRao Yup. I'd already flagged/downvoted it as, bizarrely, someone had already upvoted it.
 
@AdrianMole It's not that it's wrong, it's that the badges are arbitrary (I've never understood why Sportsmanship is in there) and actual site activity is ignored. You can run up a perfect score, leave for months on end, and return with that same perfect score (purely hypothetical btw. This is not in any way a reference to the recent election)
Worse, is for most people that's the only metric they see or act on. I know because I used to do that myself. I don't know these people so... candidate score looks good. I'll vote for them
 
12:42 PM
Yep. From what I could gather, the consensus in the earlier chats was that activities like numbers of flags, edits, reviews, close votes, etc. should be used. And I agree with your last point that the numbers should be recent - say, in the past 12 months.
Or possibly a combination of total (assesses candidate's 'established' status) and recent (candidate's activity level).
 
Once you get deep into moderation (as we often do in here) you realize the value of these backend contributions. Candidate score works well for lighter duty sites, but SO has people who actively userland moderate. That should count for something
 
Another issue (in the election just gone) seems to be that, because Stephen isn't an active chatroom groupie or Meta-junkie, those who are such assume he's not been active. But, as my comment on the results Meta answer tried to indicate, he is active in curation duties.
.. but I think he ruffled one or two other feathers, though.
 
And that's one of the great ironies there. Even Stephen was hurt by the lack of anything indicating his level of activity. He is a very active reviewer
 
@Machavity I recognized his name immediately from the Review Queues.
 
1:18 PM
I can already count today as a win :) I posted my canned, sounds like you need to learn how to use a debugger comment, and it seems the OP did just that and found the logic error \o/
3
 
@NathanOliver Win++ :)
 
Dear moderators, how i can see an answer from this post? (an author deleted question, what a hell!!)
[https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69739284/r-verifiying-if-all-columns-have-the-same-value-in-a-specefic-value]
 
@manro get 10k rep
 
@JeanneDark hell! I hate this author)
 
1:26 PM
@manro Ok...
 
Oy, why so much hate? :)
 
jps
@manro I think it could be undeleted. It had no down or closevotes and an answer.
and it's a bad habbit on some users to delete their question as soon as they got their answers.
 
@jps can you paste here an answer? I catched only a dataset :)
i copy and delete
 
jps
@manro I casted an undel vote
 
@jps thx. I tried to understand how it works, and this F,,, man did it , rrrr
 
jps
1:38 PM
@manro if it's getting reopened, don't forget to vote on the answer if it's useful.
 
@jps ok, np. i opened some another answers a whilst. It is really nice to learn analysing answers (especially without any practice)
 
@manro Yeah - but also, upvoting an answer prevent the poster of the question self-deleting it.
Sorry - pinged jps in error.
 
@AdrianMole he can't delete a question with answer?
 
@manro If the answer (any answer) is upvoted, they can't (easily) delete their question.
 
jps
@manro now it's your turn, the q/a is undeleted now.
 
1:53 PM
@jps ready;)
 
jps
and if there is more than one answer, it can't be deleted either.
 
@AdrianMole If he delete again - he will catch a ban, ha-ha)
 
Of course, we can still delete it - but only once, now! xD
 
He can't delete the question with an upvoted answer
 
I did a good deed?
 
2:09 PM
@AdrianMole Well, moderators are expected to be active on Meta
 
@manro It's mod flaggable if a question gets an answer and the questioner deletes their question
 
@TylerH But there are many long-established mods who aren't.
 
@Machavity I'm glad Catija and Co are looking at ways to revise the scoring for this reason
@AdrianMole Much to the detriment of the community, and their moderating efficacy
 
Has anyone seen the new moderator yet? I have seen Zoe and she is doing quite well.
 
@Tomerikoo You don't think the different phrasing in the duplicate question (not to mention the differently worded explanation of the answer) is useful as a signpost? I mean it got pretty highly upvoted, in less than a week.
 
jps
2:14 PM
@Dharman my latest NAN flag was handled by her
 
@Dharman You've seen her? Are you in the Matrix?
I'm not surprised Zoe is hitting the ground running, though. She has lots of experience in the user moderation end of things.
 
@Dharman He's in the mod room
 
@TylerH Yeah I was actually starting to contemplate this shortly after posting here... I do agree that it might be too "rushed" to delete it. Sadly I can't revert a delete vote, but yes - please bin the request
 
@Tomerikoo actually you should be able to now
with the change in delete voting that hit yesterday
@TylerH @Tomerikoo but binned, per your request
 
Wasn't aware of a change, but no I can't. Clicking on the delete button just pops up the confirmation message and clicking yes pops another error message saying I already voted to delete...
 
2:20 PM
Hmm... thanks. I'll mention that on the MSE announcement
 
Should this question be on Cross-validated like the answer says? stackoverflow.com/a/62839888/1839439
Ohh, wait there's no recent activity
It can't be migrated anyway
 
@TylerH I just saw the announcement is starred here, and the answer says "[...] and we're also deploying Delete Vote retraction slowly this week (which touches the same code)." so I guess it will be available soon
 
Ah
tantalizing :-D
Well, if it matters, you can bookmark it and return in a couple days I suppose
 
Yeah I will. Thanks
 
@Dharman Sorry you didn't get elected. I thought it will be you and Zoe. Maybe next time :)
 
2:25 PM
I'm sad too, but I can still do a lot as a normal user.
Zoe is definitely a great choice.
 
Sure, we all can. But having powers can come in handy
 
@Dharman It is a bummer; if you were a mod you could hide your Dharmanbot PHP room from non-mods and not worry about it getting frozen every week :-)
 
@Dharman I was gonna make you handle your own voting fraud flags, but now I have to do it... sigh
 
@TylerH My room never froze
@Machavity Teach Zoe to do it and you will have some free time
 
@Dharman Right, I just mean you could make it private (private rooms freeze automatically after a period of time), so that non-mods couldn't see it.
But mods can talk in frozen rooms
 
2:33 PM
I don't think Zoe's gotten to that level yet (it really is better to start with other flags first because the voting fraud stuff is very manual). I'm sure she'll start doing them soon. She's already done an impressive amount of flags
 
I'm only a little surprised there isn't a special pathway that can be assigned to select users so they can raise a flag that goes directly to CMs :-P
"bah, another fraud flag from Dharman, just send it straight to the staff"
 
No, because mods can delete sockpuppets
CMs don't need to be involved in the simpler cases
 
@Dharman Yes, it was a joke, but there are also times where a non-mod may know a case will be more complex, if they regularly report fraud cases
 
@TylerH Ironically Sam has a userscript that makes it almost that easy to forward flags like that. And I often do just that for some of Dharman's flags (usually when we can't figure out who did the voting)
 
Of course he does :-)
 
3:03 PM
stackoverflow.com/questions/30771817/… is this closeworthy? (NATO). Both answers links to documentation behind a login as far as I can tell
 
@SurajRao Yes, the question says "Can anyone brief me how to do the entire process to consume the web service." They want a tutorial basically
 
@cigien stackoverflow.com/a/25085189/4826457 this NAA has been around for a long time
 
@SurajRao Yes, that's true. You could flag that as NAA. I would just delete the question in 2 days; I don't see anything worth keeping there.
 
3:32 PM
Does this question (C++, Vulkan) seem too broad? stackoverflow.com/questions/69736010/…
 
@TylerH I would go with POB.
 
Who reads that long posts and goes thru all the links to answer?
 
<-
 
That too. But "too long" isn't a close reason. :)
 
@Vega I mean it seems like an interesting, well thought out question. Just seems like it might be... not within the scope of the site
 
3:42 PM
@TylerH If "safer" was better defined it might do well on CodeReview or if the scope was altered to focus more on the porting to an API maybe even SoftwareEngineering?
 
Personally I do think Software Engineering might be a better fit. I agree "safer" isn't super well-defined, but it is defined: "It is very likely the data of ext will be reinterpreted as if the one from a extension_a, resulting in either undefined behaviour or unexpected results as it is supposed to be extension_b data."
@MrMythical was this a formal request? If so, please use this format to request action on the post: [tag:cv-pls] <reason for closure> <link to post>
 
@JeanneDark @AdrianMole @VLAZ A recent edit on that post stated that you can recast retracted close-votes in the same timeframe (i.e. 14 days after the time they would have aged away). However, that has not previously been my experience. I'm currently experimenting on that MSE question to see if that's actually the case or not. So far, the new wording is incorrect, but that has at least a few to several days to go prior to being definitive.
I've removed the statement from that answer that retracted CVs/RVs can be recast. Unless at least two other people also chose to test close-votes on that question, then, at a minimum, recasting a retracted close-vote is not in the same timeframe as would be permitted for recasting an aged away CV. I will continue monitoring to see if it does permit me to recast the close-vote in some other timeframe.
 
@Makyen Thanks! But aged away votes can still be recast? I believe I remember a Shog9 post about why recasting retracted close/reopen votes would not be good because of some kind of possible abuse (I'm not sure, maybe I'll find it again).
 
3:58 PM
@JeanneDark Every time I'm aware of having encountered it, both from personally casting close-votes prior to being a moderator and seeing some close-votes recast in timelines after being a moderator, it has been the case that aged away close-votes and close-flags could be recast/reraised. However, I don't specifically recall if the ones I've seen as a moderator were recent (i.e. I recall seeing that it had happened, but I don't recall the timeframe of the votes).
 
@JeanneDark aged away votes can be re-cast, but retracted ones cannot, that's correct
 
I think I found Shog9's answer but it wasn't received well.
 
@JeanneDark because it was too afraid of a theoretical thing that there's no evidence would occur
 
you can definitely recast aged away close votes, as of a month ago
?
 
@KevinB You have always been able to recast aged away votes
 
4:04 PM
yes
 
@KevinB I'm not sure what you're asking then
 
it wasn't a question
lol
 
Oh, the question mark confused me
 
the question is how is that even a question, it's always been that way
 
Oh I see now, for some reason Makyen hasn't experienced an aged-away close vote
 
4:07 PM
@TylerH Hasn't experienced an aged-away close-vote recently. :)
 
@Makyen Well, recently you've been a moderator so your close votes always work :-P
 
@JeanneDark Meh, I've come around to just be happy that the question is closed.
 
It seems that it wasn't always the case that you could recast aged away close/reopen votes. The change was apparently made in 2015. See animuson's answer.
 
That's right, because close votes used to not age away at all
so there was no need to be able to re-cast aged-away votes
 
4:14 PM
Close votes aged away, but it was based on views.
 
@Makyen OK, so I went back and checked for a CV of mine that aged away. Here is what I found - I VTCed on the 11th of October (16 days ago from today) but the dialog claims I can vote again on the 9th of November. This indicates 29 days to be able to recast a vote.
With this in mind, I went back and found an aged away CV from the 27th of September (30 days ago). However, I'm unable to cast it againand the dialog doesn't indicate that I can vote again at all. Maybe it'd be possible tomorrow. I found an aged away CV from the 24th of September and I am allowed to CV again there.
 
in... ~ 5 hours
?
 
@VLAZ So, the ~30 day period probably takes into account both the time it takes for the CV to age away (2 weeks?) and the cooldown period after that (another 2 weeks)
 
@TylerH I assume so. I couldn't find the time for a vote to age away. But if the entire period is 29 days and you can vote 14 days after the ageing away, then must be 15 days for that to happen. Maybe there is some rounding happening so it's +/-1 a day. The first screenshot says I can vote again at 03:00, so I assume it's tied to some nightly job, perhaps. At any rate, it's not exactly X hours/days since I've cast the vote, which happened at 08:21
 
4:34 PM
@VLAZ Close-votes (and close-flags) are aged away between 3.5 to 4.5 days after being cast if the question has > 100 views, depending on when the vote was cast relative to when the job which performs the aging away task is run during the day. That timeframe is 13.5 to 14.5 days if the question is <= 100 views. Both timeframes may be extended by additional days, depending on if other people had cast close-votes on the question and when they cast them.
I haven't tested to see if the extension of time as a result of other user's close-votes also applies to the aging away of close-flags. Additional close-flags don't affect the aging away timeframe of close-votes, or, at least, they didn't appear to.
 
4:46 PM
OK, then I have this one here - I CV-ed at the 12th of October (15 days ago) and retracted on the 13th of October (14 days ago). The Q has 300 views right now. It seems like the CV should have aged away by now. I'll be checking this over the next few days in case other factors have extended this. However, it seems to contradict the claim that you (rightfully) removed from the meta Q that said that you can re-cast a retracted CV after it would have aged away.
 
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