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2:34 AM
 
 
3 hours later…
5:47 AM
 
Should this answer be deleted?
 
 
1 hour later…
7:19 AM
@Brad Rolling back to the vandalized version makes absolutely no sense; please don't do that. The advice for the OP to delete the question if they like is quite sufficient. — tripleee 53 secs ago
this is a new one ^ cc @Shree
 
7:30 AM
@tripleee thanks.
 
7:42 AM
@Shree Do you collect comments that show a stunningly complete lack of understanding of how the site works?
 
Nop
Some auto comment script post that . Mistake.
why ?
 
Just wondering why you were thanking tripleee for sharing that very odd comment.
 
ohhh.
 
7:57 AM
The reason I pinged was that the rollback undid Shree's rollback
and pardon the mobile keyboard
 
!!/blame
 
@Shree It's Makyen's fault.
12
 
:D I know that.
 
8:21 AM
@CodyGray do you know where the canonical post on mod elections is that says the nominees should take some verbal hardship during the election phase and that warrants latitude for voters interacting with them?
 
I need to wake up. I wondered what VST3 had to do with Visual Studio ...
@bad_coder doesn't whole Meta apply to that?
 
@bad_coder I do not think there is a canonical. There is one specific question about a specific comment being deleted, which I answered. That contains what you are probably thinking of:
> Nominating yourself for moderator is a proactive choice to place yourself in the limelight and thus subject yourself to community review and criticism. For one thing, when elected, moderators have to take a whole lot worse. But that's not a good justification.
> The important justification is that the community puts an extreme amount of trust into diamond moderators, given the amount of power that diamond moderators have. It is therefore critical for the community to be able to vet their moderator candidates.
 
@rene well, yeah...But I'm interacting with a candidate who's material but the guy just never saw an SO election and 6-8 lukewarm comments in was already complaining I'm being belligerent (although I'm the only guy asking him questions...)
@CodyGray Perfect!! Exactly what was needed. Thanks !!
 
Do take this with a grain of salt... SO is a somewhat different place than other, smaller SE sites. Mods need a ridiculously thick skin here, but that argument could be a lot less persuasive on other sites. Also... please don't use this as justification for beating somebody up. A whole slew of comments from one user is probably too much.
 
@bad_coder if that is based on comments you left then I would say they are not a good fit. I can't remember a comment of yours that offended me, even if we had opposite positions.
 
8:29 AM
Yeah, what rene said. You are quite delicate in how you put things and always try very hard to be considerate. Far more than most.
You could let rene and I grill the candidate instead. :-)
 
@CodyGray yeah, when there is something to grill I'm all in.
 
I thought you were the waffle iron guy
 
Mmmm, grilled waffles
 
@CodyGray I'll wrap-up my interactions with the nominee (linking to your post). I certainly dislike being his only interlocutor and I'm mindful future elections may refer to what's written in this one. So I'm trying to keep it short-as-possible, while raising the bare minimum of what should be brought up.
 
Is there a Meta questionnaire? That's usually a better place for extended back-and-forth than the nomination post proper.
 
8:43 AM
@rene that's quite a compliment (I've worst days where my cordiality wasn't to my entire satisfaction.)
@CodyGray no I don't think so. It's the site's first election that's not pro-tempore. So from what I've gathered there won't be a meta thread because there weren't any questions.
 
Hmm. I think SE provides some "stock" questions that get asked even if the community doesn't add any custom ones of their own.
But I am not entirely sure of the process. It's been years since I paid serious attention to the workings of an SE site other than SO (or MSE), and there have been a lot of changes to the election process since then. Including, um, having elections. :-)
 
@CodyGray mmm, I really don't know. There was nothing in the announcements indicating there would be questions. There's also been a change in election software announced last month. So there was actually a self-duplicate posted and closed by the CM...The whole thing was a bit strange.
 
Huh, I see.
Like I said, I haven't been following this at all.
But if there's not a requirement in the process that a Meta Q&A be created to allow freer discussion about/with the candidates... that seems like a defect in the process.
Ideally, that should be a questionnaire.
 
Well, thank you for linking me to the resource @CodyGray . I'll try to dignify the election and the candidate.
 
Haha, sure. Any time.
@RiggsFolly That looks like a "how to" question, rather than a resource recommendation.
 
9:24 AM
@CodyGray What are we supposed to use for HowTo's now a days
 
@RiggsFolly Answers
Unless they're legitimately far too broad to be answered in a Q&A format (e.g., "how to build a Facebook clone?")
 
@CodyGray K
 
10:56 AM
The question starts with "yeah" :-/
 
yeah
Posting such a question on SO for the 2nd time...
 
sigh
 
I think the system is working.
Specifically, the answer ban system. Not sure what's going wrong with the question ban system...
 
It may also soon do its job
 
Maybe they'll have more luck writing Articles.
 
11:06 AM
;)
 
That was that case with 5 times the same wrong answer on unrelated questions
 
They kept getting deleted!
Is Mongoose used to keep Python code in check?
 
11:52 AM
@sta Can you please clarify why that is off-topic?
 
I think it was meant to be unclear or needs focus
The question is on-topic, but no idea what they are asking exactly
 
That's what I would assume, but I'm looking for a bit of clarification.
 
sta
@CodyGray not specific a programming problem My task is to add new feature to existing laravel project which is built by other people. I don't know how can i develop and test it on my local machine. I think this type of question is not allowed here?
 
@sta OK. Generally, it's assumed that "off-topic" means blatantly off-topic, like the question is not about programming. Like Dharman said, what you mean there is that question is unclear, and/or that it needs more focus. Either of those would be better close reasons to suggest in your request.
If you do want to use "off-topic", and it's not blatantly off-topic, a brief description of why you think it's off-topic would be useful to include in the cv-pls message.
 
sta
@CodyGray thank you.
 
12:07 PM
 
sta
duplicate? 1, 2
 
@sta seems so, just slightly shuffled and reworded to avoid bumping in an exact duplicate restriction (there is also a comment linking the two)
 
 
2 hours later…
2:39 PM
@CodyGray It's actually required to be specific when using that reason (as I was reminded recently), as per FAQ: what should close reasons contain: "A request reason of just "off-topic" is insufficient, because it leaves too many possibilities as to why you feel the question should be closed." cc @sta
 
3:11 PM
Is that a good question?
 
@KevinM.Mansour That seems like a device manager question.
 
@Braiam So that means It is on-topic or off-topic?
 
You asked if it was good or not. I just answered what it seems to be ;)
 
Huh? Good :)
 
3:50 PM
Why is this suggested edit rejected?
^ He have improved the formatting.
 
@KevinM.Mansour Probably because the question was closed.
 
@KevinM.Mansour Because it didn't improve the question
 
The question was closed but the edit didn't improve the quality in terms of a possible reopening.
Approving such edits pushes the question into the reopen queue. If that review queue then fails to reopen it, any future edit by the OP, which may actually make the question better, will not automatically send it to review.
 
Hmm? But there is someone that have edited that looks like same edit?
 
@KevinM.Mansour But they can edit directly
 
4:02 PM
@JeanneDark Isn't that will move it to the reopen queue?
 
@KevinM.Mansour They shouldn't have made that edit either. The issue is that most users don't know about this aspect of the site mechanics, and even when they do, they (myself included) don't always think about that when coming across a post that can obviously be improved by editing it. It is unfortunate that users without editing privileges are held to higher standards on this front, so while I don't disagree with the reject, it probably wouldn't hurt to explain it in a custom reject message.
 
The simplest solution is to just not polish turds
2
 
@cigien What's actually at fault here is not the users who make such edits, but the system that automatically pushes the question(s) into the Reopen Queue. But that has been discussed (just a few times) on Meta.
2
 
@AdrianMole Absolutely, it's the system's fault for sure. I'm not personally holding my breath on it being fixed in a hurry though, so given what we have, it's preferable to send edit suggesters the right message, when possible, when rejecting the edit.
 
4:08 PM
@cigien Exactly since it is rejected with The edit does not improve the quality of the post. Changes to the content are unnecessary or make the post more confusing. So the editor won't understand what they have done wrong.
Actually I have hated this rejection message. The edit does not improve the quality of the post. Actually the edit improve the post. Changes to the content are unnecessary or make the post more confusing. Good edits are unnecessary and they make post more confusing. It is not helpful anyway.
Also as I said above there is someone (Above 2K) have edited the post that looks like same rejected edit.
 
Those who suggest such edits are wasting the reviewers' time.
 
@JeanneDark They don't know. :)
 
@KevinM.Mansour And so their suggested edits are rejected (in the best case)
 
@KevinM.Mansour That another person did something which was sub-optimal or wrong doesn't justify you or anyone else doing the same thing which is sub-optimal or wrong. The actions are separate.
 
@JeanneDark So Is that their fault? They see that they just improved the post. But they don't know that will move it to the reopen queue.
 
4:15 PM
@cigien We are objectively speaking rubbish. If we reject the edit because the question is closed, we shouldn't edit it either. So, that reasoning doesn't fly.
 
@Braiam No, we should make the edit in a manner which doesn't push it into the reopen queue.
 
@KevinM.Mansour They could get informed about how SO works and probably should before they suggest edits.
 
@Makyen Good. So Isn't that edit will push it to the reopen queue?
 
I tend to skip a review if the question is closed but might be eligible for reopening. But sometimes you miss that fact in the suggested edits review queue; there's quite a number of things to rembember to check there. I wish the system would caution you with a bit of extra warning if you are reviewing an edit of a closed post; the majority of those suggested edits are pointless at best and often pure garbage
 
@tripleee If we're making changes, I'd much rather that the system was just changed such that only substantial edits by the OP pushed the question into the reopen queue.
@KevinM.Mansour Yes, the edit pushed the question into the reopen queue, as you should be able to see from the timeline, given that the review is complete.
 
4:22 PM
@tripleee Edits should be rejected based on their own merits. If the system is crappy we should deal with it, rather than confuse editors because a system weakness.
 
@Braiam I agree that users who suggest an edit shouldn't be confused. However, that can be handled by providing a custom reason for rejecting. I disagree that we should do something (approve the edit of a closed question which would result in consuming the question's one entry-by-edit into the reopen queue) which is harmful to the site, the question, and the author of the question.
 
@Makyen So Isn't that wasted reopen queue reviewers' time?
 
@JeanneDark I have to disagree with this. When I first got to suggest edits, I put in (I like to think) a reasonable amount of effort into understanding what edits should be made, or not. As far as I recall, there was no substantial (or any) guidance on making edits on closed posts, and the interaction with the reopen queue.
In fact, the rules are extremely complicated, and I'd wager that half the users in this room wouldn't be able to recite the exact rules from memory. Expecting suggested editors to know these rules is unreasonable in my opinion. Ideally, the system should be fixed in a way that this is not an issue, but barring that, being clear when rejecting is the best option.
 
What happens if an edit is suggested while a question is open but only gets approved after it has been closed? Does that still send it to the reopen queue? And most reviewers wouldn't see the timeline.
 
@cigien There's enough guidance on MSO
 
4:30 PM
@KevinM.Mansour Yes, of course. That's how it works. I'm not sure where you're going with this. We've already explained that making an edit to a closed question, which doesn't make it reopenable, without ensuring that your edit won't push the question into the reopen queue, is not desirable regardless of if it's a suggested edit or an edit done with the full edit privilege.
The primary difference is that a suggested edit has at least two other people reviewing it, who also should be aware of the issue and can, and should, reject the edit for that reason.
@AdrianMole Yes, that's what happens. The time that matters is when the edit is applied to the question.
 
So, in such cases, the suggested edit may well be a good one, but reviewers should nonetheless reject it. Seems like a broken system.
2
 
@KevinM.Mansour In short: Such questions should only be edited by the OP. But only if a user with less than 2k tries to edit it, can reviewers prevent the edit.
 
@AdrianMole Yes, and there are multiple feature requests asking for changes which would either reduce the issue or fix it. Unfortunately, none have been implemented, so we have to deal with it as it is.
 
Ho hum. Still, something to talk about on an otherwise quiet Saturday. ;)
 
@Makyen Thank you so far. :)
@JeanneDark Good, Thank you. :)
 
4:36 PM
@JeanneDark Of course, but MSO is huge. Where does one start looking? How does one even know that this editing closed questions thing is something they should look for? You're one of the users who's most knowledgeable about MSO, and it's possible that this is coloring your views on what is reasonable for a user to be aware of.
Again, I'm not trying to hold myself up as a typical user, but I suspect I put in at least as much effort as is expected of the average user, and when I was learning how edits work, the particular mechanisms we're discussing were entirely opaque to me.
 
@AdrianMole Exactly my point.
 
@JeanneDark (cc @KevinM.Mansour) This is not quite correct. Closed questions should only be edited by users other than the OP in ways which don't push it into the reopen queue (assuming that the edit doesn't make the question reopenable, which most edits don't).
That means:
⠀⠀A) Any title-only or tag-only edit is OK.
⠀⠀B) Any edit by a user who voted to close, voted to reopen (see important note below), or flagged the question with a flag other than an "in need of moderator intervention" flag is OK.
⠀⠀⠀⠀If you didn't vote to close and haven't already flagged the question, then you can raise and quickly retract a spam or rude/abusive flag (preferably prior to editing) in order to prevent your edit from pushing the question into the reopen queue.
⠀⠀⠀⠀Important Note: DO NOT edit then vote to reopen, as that can/will result in the question being removed from the reopen queue. If you are going to both vote to reopen and edit, then vote to reopen first, even though that seems like the wrong order.
 
4:53 PM
@Makyen You are correct. I wanted to keep it succinct and didn't want to delve into the myriad of special cases that don't push a question into the reopen queue. Another possibility is an OP providing enough info in the comments so the question becomes suitable after an edit that incorporates the info.
@cigien Learning by experience. After all, it's just a rejected edit.
 
@JeanneDark But that's why I'm saying that the "edit is not an improvement" message is a problem. It's factually incorrect, and not the (real) reason the edit was rejected. The user is not going to learn (the right thing) from that experience.
 
5:11 PM
@cigien Especially when users are encouraged to make edits that, for example, add or correct code fences, or fix grammatical/spelling (or other topygriphacol) errors.
 
@cigien Reviewers could write a custom message, couldn't they? And else, searching on MSO is usually not that hard. That's how I find the dupe targets ;) A lot could be improved (don't get me started on "Needs improvent"...) but we can only work with what we've got. But the info can be found somewhere. And even if not, if you know about what's on- and off-topic or suitable for SO or why questions are closed, it might tell you why you shouldn't suggest cosmetic changes to such questions.
 
@JeanneDark The example we are discussion has two "seasoned" users and neither used custom messages, so that argument kinds of lose effect
 
@Braiam Well, the user could have searched MSO, the reviewers could have written a custom reject reason... ;)
 
@JeanneDark "After all, it's just a rejected edit." For you, It is just a rejected edit but for the editor it might be a huge problem, no?
 
@JeanneDark That's just making the system unnecessarily complex, without making better content
 
5:17 PM
@KevinM.Mansour A "huge problem"?
 
@JeanneDark Yes, Adding one rejected edit to your list is not a good behavior?
 
@JeanneDark Yeah, sure. Loss of a potential +2 reputation points. Massive!
 
@JeanneDark That's all I was saying really, that users should reject with a better message. As to suggested editors being able to discover the right thing to do by looking at MSO, ... I don't know how reasonable that is to expect.
In this case, I feel bad for the editor; they made an edit of the sort that is encouraged, was rejected for the wrong reason, and then sees another user make essentially an essentially identical edit. I'm not even sure MSO guidance could make up for the confusing guidance they got on this post.
 
@cigien At least the user who made the edit was not one of the (rejecting) reviewers
 
@AdrianMole I am didn't mention reputation points. The problem is one rejected edit? :)
 
5:19 PM
@JeanneDark Well, I would hope not :) That would be an abuse of both the review and edit privilege at the same time.
 
I was joking (sort of). When you have 13 rep, +2 can be a wonderful thing.
 
@AdrianMole Then you can flag and flag and flag and...
 
... and upvote.
 
Meh
 
You've been taking in too much stuff from Cody and Dharman.
 
5:22 PM
@AdrianMole They advocate upvoting?
 
Errm. Don't think so.
 
@AdrianMole That is right. But for me +2 is not a huge problem but dumping you rejection list with one rejected it is not a good behavior. At least you could understand "Why this edit got rejected?"
 
@cigien In my opinion, if you want to make the site better through editing, earn 2k rep first. If you want to earn rep through editing, you have to live with the (occasional) rejection.
 
@JeanneDark That is awesome. And gaining 2K is very easy? :)
 
@JeanneDark Thanks. No surprise that this has come up on MSO before, or that you found it :) Yeah, it's not cool to do that as I expected.
 
5:26 PM
@KevinM.Mansour If one rejected edit is a "huge problem" for you...
 
One rejection may not be too bad but a few (5?) will get you edit-banned, IIRC.
 
@JeanneDark Huh? Good at all.
@AdrianMole Is there editing ban?
 
I believe there is, for <2k users.
 
@JeanneDark That's reasonable. But that's definitely not the guidance editors get. And there's no reason to think that the editor in this case was doing it for the rep. It was a good faith edit, that actually improved the post, and they were not given the guidance, either before, or after making the edit, as to why they shouldn't have made it.
 
anyways, can we agree that it's bad that we have to reject such edits, but there is not much we can do apart from leaving a message? :) I just wish the char limit on the custom message wasn't so excruciatingly low.
 
5:29 PM
@AdrianMole So what about 50 rejected edit?
 
@OlegValter For me, I agree we shouldn't not to reject like edits. Or atleast make editors understand "Why this edit got rejected".
 
and this one from MSE with info from Jeff
 
@AdrianMole Thank you. :)
@OlegValter Thank you. :)
 
 
2 hours later…
 
2 hours later…
10:02 PM
 

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