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12:52 AM
@yivi It's been discussed in here before, and in a bunch of comments that I've deleted underneath the question each time I look at it. I think it's more than fine. If folks want to have an extended discussion about it, that should happen on Meta, not by a vote war. (Not accusing you; just speaking generally so it's on the record.)
@desertnaut Handle as you normally would with respect to voting to close, since that's all you can do, and it's more important to get the question closed quickly. You can also raise a mod flag, since this is an abuse of the system. Be clear in the flag message that the user deleted and reposted the same question. If you have a link to the original, that'd be nice, but not required, as mods can easily see deleted questions.
 
@CodyGray thanks
 
Dangerously replying before I see whether Makyen already said the same thing :-)
@Yatin General computing? Heck no. Did you include the wrong link? That's clearly a programming question. It got closed for a bizarre combination of 3 reasons (unclear, seeking recommendations, and needs debugging details), only one of which might be defensible. Anyway, I've now reopened and closed as a duplicate.
Ironically, it is better posed than the question I marked it as a duplicate of...
@AdrianMole Haskell Q&A is a good place to go for a palate cleanser when you've looked at too many crap questions in another language.
 
@CodyGray did you actually need the golden badge to single-handedly close it as a duplicate, or the diamond was enough? :)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:00 AM
@CodyGray Ok
 
 
2 hours later…
5:15 AM
@cigien it's really annoying that you can't correct a flag; I mistakenly flagged spam as I first read it but then realised it should be r/a. Sadly having retracted a spam flag I can't now flag it as r/a :(
 
@Nick Yeah, I don't know all the reasons behind that constraint. But as for the spam flag, I think it would be fine to have left it. It serves the purpose of getting rid of the post, and it probably wouldn't even be declined.
 
@Nick np... no one will reject that flag
spam and r/a are both red flags so they are kinda equivalent. Don't retract.
 
@desertnaut :-) The system shows the gold badge when you have one, whether you have mod privileges or not. It's not like you actually get to choose which hammer to deploy.
@mickmackusa You should change your avatar to glasses, then everyone will automatically think you're nice!
Or...maybe the opposite. I always forget which.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:56 AM
@IanCampbell Close enough :-) got to 10k!
9
 
@RyanM Congrats!
 
Thanks :-)
 
@RyanM Congrats bro!
 
@oguzismail ಠ_ಠ I'll allow it this once :-)
 
@oguzismail um... I think your should read their profile :p
 
7:00 AM
@Yatin I did :D
 
:p
 
Only one thing worse than "bro", and that's "dudebro".
 
I've never heard "dudebro" used as a direct address, only as a derogatory description of a person.
 
Why is bro bad?
 
7:08 AM
I always assumed he doesn't know how to surf, so it would be misleading. :-)
If it's a genuine question, see, perhaps, this article, originally published in New York Magazine by Ann Friedman.
> “Bro” once meant something specific: a self-absorbed young white guy in board shorts with a taste for cheap beer. But it’s become a shorthand for the sort of privileged ignorance that thrives in groups dominated by wealthy, white, straight men. “Bro” is convenient because describing a professional or social dynamic as “overly white, straight, and male” seems both too politically charged and too general;
> instead, “bro” conjures a particular type of dude who operates socially by excluding those who are different. And, crucially, a bro in isolation is barely a bro at all — he needs his peers to reinforce his beliefs and laugh at his jokes. That’s why the key to de-broing our culture just might be the straight white guys who aren't bros.
 
The fact that someone wrote an article about it is funnier than the joke you made above :D
 
There are zillions of articles about it.
 
Like, what does it have to do with race, sexual preference, or financial status?
 
de-broing
 
@CodyGray I'll never understand the West.
 
7:14 AM
Surely you have your own cultural quirks.
 
Can't think of any right now, but sure, probably many
 
7:32 AM
> The chances of this getting closed are high because it is opinion based.
Not high enough, unfortunately :-(
 
@CodyGray Because people decide to answer it instead of voting/flagging to close
 
Many, many votes and flags; all aged away up until now.
It was even (mostly) triaged correctly.
It's a systemic failure. No specific person did anything wrong, yet the garbage still fell through the cracks for years.
 
Until someone decided to post a new answer and I stumbled upon it in LA ;)
 
Which, in most cases, were we lucky, would have resulted in the answer being moderated, but the question still being left alone/open.
 
@CodyGray Thanks, that was an interesting read! At least, in our case the close reason was obvious.
 
7:49 AM
Most of Hans's Meta answers are worthwhile reads, if you haven't already.
 
8:26 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ That's quite clear. I assumed it would be a dupe, but couldn't find one. The opposite direction exists, as well as a 1D version. I don't think this one should be closed, unless there's a target. cc @CodyGray
 
@cigien Kinda unfair to claim the original was clear when you edit in a bunch of stuff. I definitely don't think the original contained enough information to answer. I'm uncertain if the edits are sufficient, but I probably wouldn't have voted to close in that state.
 
@CodyGray Oh sorry, I thought it was clear enough originally. I only added an example of declarations of both types. As to reopening, it appears to be equivalent to the question that goes in the opposite direction. In fact, it's better since it specifies a 2D array as opposed to allowing a 2D vector as well.
 
Instead of such edits, a comment asking the OP to improve their question first might be in order.
 
The existence of another open question doesn't prove anything... You know this already.
You changed "armadillo mat format" into "armadillo matrix format". I'm not even sure if that's correct or defensible. I see "mat format', and I think MATLAB's mat format.
 
@JeanneDark Why exactly? Because it might change the OP's intent? That's fair in general. I used my judgement in this case as I couldn't see any other interpretation of what the OP might have meant. The OP seems to agree as well. cc @CodyGray
 
8:34 AM
@JeanneDark Don't be ridiculous ;-)
 
@cigien But you only found out about that afterwards. What if you had been wrong?
 
I'd probably be singing a different tune if I thought you had salvaged the question into something worthy of reopening, but I'm on the fence here.
 
@JeanneDark The OP would have edited it, I presume. But yes, I agree that in general one shouldn't edit a question unless one is sure. I was sure, and also, I really think the question was clear before, just not very well written.
 
I still wouldn't be singing in tune, though, because boy, I can't sing.
 
Also OP's might be OK with any edit that helps their question get reopened. Not in all cases might the result be what they had wished for though.
@CodyGray In SOCVR no one can hear you sing :)
 
8:40 AM
@JeanneDark I couldn't care less if the OP gets what they want. If the question is worth adding to the repo, I'll take it, happily. If the OP obliges by saying the edit is what they want, mission accomplished. If they object, then of course I have to revert the edits.
@CodyGray Of course. What's your opinion on the opposite direction one? Both these questions seem very similar to me.
 
First linked one is fine; second linked one (stackoverflow.com/questions/53367957/…) is bad.
 
@cigien The help center is clear about not changing the meaning of a post.
 
Is it changing the meaning if no one knows what the meaning is?
 
If someone doesn't ask what you want to be asked, you are free to ask your own question (which then also gets added to the repository).
 
In general, I'm with cigien here: if an edit can salvage a post, taking it from something that needs to be closed to something that is a valuable contribution to our knowledge base, then I support it.
Yes, it's always possible for you to ask a new question yourself, but why, when you can edit what exists?
I feel the same way about all edits. If I can add more information to a 90% answer that brings it up to a 100% answer, I prefer that to posting a new answer.
 
8:45 AM
@JeanneDark Yes, I'm aware of the rules. As I said, if there's any indication that the edits change the meaning of the post, for example if the OP objects, or SMEs make that argument, then the edits are not acceptable. That is not the case here IMO.
@CodyGray Agreed. Agreed.
 
It's all nice and fine in theory unless you change an OP's question to something they don't want and they come back and complain. What if they wanted to ask X, but asked X' (which is unanswerable). A helpful editor changes it to Y and everyone is happy until the OP explains that they are not interested in Y but X (which is also a fine question).
 
Yeah, can't have any OPs complaining here. That'd be surprising, new, and impossible to deal with. Where's my eye-roll emoji?
 
@cigien But why not first ask the OP and wait a bit for a possible reply and only then go ahead?
 
@JeanneDark I'm not really clear on what the issue is here. Perhaps it seems like this example was a one-off because there was a request posted in this room. In my eyes, that was a clarification edit, and I make those kinds of edits all the time in the tags I watch.
 
In my opinion, because fixing the problem directly (when possible) is faster, easier, and overall better than having a discussion in comments.
I also see minimal to no risks of guessing wrong.
 
8:49 AM
@JeanneDark To some extent, expediency. As I said, the edit was not running the risk of changing any intent IMO. I'm saying that as an SME. I wouldn't make similar edits in pretty much any other tag.
@CodyGray Could you bin the request, since you reopened the question and it's now eligible to be closed again?
 
Thanks.
 
If I wasn't slacking, I would have moved it already to the Graveyard, since it was closed as requested. Done now.
 
It's Saturday night. You can slack a little bit :)
 
I know I'm alone in my conservative stance on editing.
 
8:54 AM
I don't know, I'm actually quite conservative about making edits that might change intent. If for no reason other than having to undo the work I put in.
 
Saturday night? It's 9am on Sunday :p
 
@cigien I agree with this!
 
There's also a risk, if it goes wrong, of a user not coming back to ask questions. I know of a case of a user not wanting to ask questions because they fear they'd be edited into something different (although that concerns MSO).
 
@JeanneDark You just need to weigh in the importance of salvaging value.
 
@CodyGray Ah, finally, something we agree on ;)
 
8:55 AM
@JeanneDark scared of flagging too
 
Ugh.
 
9:12 AM
@CodyGray Since I missed it earlier, I linked to the MSE FAQ because 1) I do not know which one's the original (wasn't around during the great schism) 2) To me MSE feels somewhat more official (just a feeling and those are irrational!) 3) I love solving captchas.
 
@JeanneDark The MSE FAQ answer literally has a note at the bottom saying it was copied from us.
Captchas? I don't get the joke here.
 
To search on MSE and prove you're not a robot.
 
Does it ask you that each time? It doesn't ask me. I guess it assumes a robot wouldn't have earned 50k+ rep.
Joke's on it, of course.
 
Only if I'm logged in to SO
 
Weird; that should make it less likely.
 
Doesn't happen to be in an anonymous browser window, and I can't think of it ever having happened to me.
 
Yes, it doesn't always happen. Probably depends on some additional factors. But it's fine the way it is, no need to worry.
 
I worry about you, my dear enslaved captcha-solving friend.
 
I was so trained selecting traffic lights that I missed the captcha asked clicking the zebras
 
@CodyGray Thank you, makes me feel much better now! :)
 
9:32 AM
It's getting to the point where, if you fail a captcha, it proves you are a human. Only robots armed with a suite of machine-learning algorithms could pass.
 
They expect the humans to be clever enough to find a way around the captcha. Having to solve it already proves you're a robot, regardless the outcome. ;)
 
@CodyGray This is a very nice read, thanks. There's a very strange sentence in there though, "Systemic failure: users from Southern Asia regularly get upvotes for no conceivable reason." I've looked on MSO and MSE and I can't find the evidence for this anywhere. Is there a blog that SO published or something? Could you share the link with me?
 
@cigien Coming from a 600k+ something rep user (or whatever he was at the time), I think it's an empirical observation, not one based on a blog or Meta post.
 
@CodyGray Oh, I see. In that case the current phrasing is unacceptable. I'll leave a comment, and if they don't clarify in a couple of days, I'll edit the answer.
 
My own observations as a moderator bear this out; there are significantly higher incidences of voter fraud among users from certain geographic areas.
What's unclear about the phrasing?
It doesn't need an "in my opinion" stamp; that's already provided by the signature at the bottom-right corner. All posts represent the author's opinion.
There wouldn't be any Meta or blog posts to cite anyway; we don't release data or statistics on vote fraud.
 
9:43 AM
I'm confused. Casting aspersions on the reputation gained by all users from a certain geographic area, or community, etc, must be in violation of policy, right? Unless a claim like that is backed up by evidence, that appears to be downright offensive. Am I missing something?
 
I don't know of any policy that it would be violating, nor do I see the offense.
 
To be clear, the opinion is fine. My edit would just to be to add "In my opinion, based on my observations ..." or something to that effect. I don't mean to remove that sentence.
 
Do you think every sentence in an answer needs to be preceded with those weasel words? Why is this any different?
The lack of a specific citation is evidence enough that it's the author's opinion.
 
Honestly, this seems different only because of the characterisation of a an ethnic/geographic group. If it had said, "all python users get lots of upvotes for no reason" I wouldn't care. I'll look up the CoC, I've only ever skimmed it, assuming the "common sense" principle would apply. I can't place exactly what I think the problem is in this case. Maybe the CoC allows this, and my "common sense" is failing me here.
I can say that I could imagine very similarly worded statements drawing enough censure from the community, that a mod would step in and delete the answer. If you sincerely can't imagine statements of this nature, I'd be happy to share some and get feedback, though I would like to avoid that if possible. Along those lines, if I were to add the "in my opinion" caveat, would you care enough to rollback?
 
I feel like the first and second sentences argue clearly against your own point.
No, I likely wouldn't care enough to roll back an edit like that, but I wouldn't be a very big fan of it, for the reasons I've already explained. It's noise, because every sentence in a person's answer is their opinion. That's how writing works.
Aside from that, it's been 6+ years, with 200+ upvotes; I don't see any evidence of "censure from the community".
So I don't know what's triggered you here, but your reactions seem very out-of-line with "common sense".
 
9:59 AM
Is there any evidence that common sense (or the lack of it) correlates to a particular geographic area or ethnic group?
 
@AdrianMole Yes; strong evidence shows that common sense is inversely correlated with membership in the human race.
 
@CodyGray How so? One's ethnicity, or race, or gender, etc are not choices one makes, and so one should not be judged for them. Nor should one be lumped together with other people based on that. On the other hand, one's choice of programming language is, well, a choice. At least much more than the other examples. As such, I am perfectly comfortable with people being judged for those choices.
2
It's basically why I can say "all python programmers are silly, and they get lots of upvotes for no reason". Replace "python programmers" in that sentence with "women", and that's a completely different thing. I would expect to be contacted by a mod for saying things like that, and warned against doing that anymore. Or at least I hope that such talk is not acceptable. It seems I might be wrong about that.
 
Sorry to disappoint you, but... based on the evidence I've seen, users with avatars or names suggesting they are female do, in my experience as a moderator, get more upvotes on average than the typical user (who either suggests as male or presents no suggestion whatsoever).
I mean, yeah, if you call women "silly", that's borderline offensive, but doesn't seem comparable to this.
 
Very glad you're not captcha-limited on MSO
 
10:13 AM
Btw., I asked 5 questions and got 1 answer, so....
 
@CodyGray Notice how you started that with "based on the evidence I've seen ..." and also said "in my experience"? I have no objection to the opinion being stated that way. Looking more closely at Hans's answer, I also notice that every other sentence is pretty easily verifiable (except for some that can only be verified by CMs), and they all seem evidence-based. It's also very well written, and so that "opinion" appeared to me to be evidence-based as well.
Enough so that I spent 15 minutes looking for that evidence. My guess is that many readers have read that sentence and just assumed it to be true. And it may be true, as your own experience seems to have suggested, but y'all have no evidence for that other than your first hand experience.
In the middle of a long answer full of facts, it's not clear at all that that's literally only experience based, your protestations that all content posted by users is opinion based notwithstanding. I'm going to read the CoC a bit more, and then I'm going to edit the answer to make it clear that there is no evidence to support that opinion.
 
@cigien I'm speaking to someone who nitpicks about it. So, yes, I took excessive care to add qualifiers that I would normally omit.
 
@cigien To me it seems clear.
 
@JeanneDark Let's say that a study had been done, and it was shown to be the case that there were disproportionate upvotes cast for posts by users from Southern Asia. How would you expect that sentence to be phrased then? If it would be phrased the same way, and it seems to me that it would be, then my argument stands. It's unclear to me that that sentence is opinion based.
 
@cigien I would expect a link or at least a mention of said study.
 
10:21 AM
Exactly.
 
It's also hard to imagine such a study or blog post about voting rings among...
 
You could literally nitpick each of my answers claiming that not enough evidence was cited for bold claims.
 
Hmm, but y'all are fine with there being no links to any of the other claims?
 
Worse, you're arguing that because I took care to cite evidence for other claims, that somehow raises the bar for all claims
Yes! It's his opinion!
He doesn't claim it's anyone else's.
@JeanneDark Taking the words out of my mouth.
You should have added, "In Cody's opinion..." ;-)
@cigien Look at it this way. Many times in this room, you've informed other users of [your interpretation of] room and/or site rules. When you feel it's necessary, you link to "evidence" supporting either the existence of such rules, your interpretation of those rules, or both. However, other times, you state your own opinions. Boldly, like I do, with few qualifiers. Is that OK? What's the difference?
 
I'm going to spend some time and think hard about what it was in that answer that made me think that particular sentence was fact based. I'm not generally thick about these things; I can manage to read intent, and meaning, in text. But it seems that it was blatantly obvious to both of y'all that the sentence was in fact entirely opinion-based, and that makes me think I'm missing something crucial here.
I won't make any edits to that for at least a day, and I'll bring it up here again to get feedback if I do decide to edit. I'll give y'all plenty of time to respond to my questions of course, before I actually edit anything.
@CodyGray Hmm, have we lost sight of the fact that the sentence is making a claim about an ethnic group? How is that not fundamentally different from having opinions about closing questions, or room policy?
 
10:30 AM
Part of what made it "blatantly obvious" is probably that, as mentioned, it would be virtually impossible to ever have evidence for it, since such evidence is not released.
 
@cigien The way I read it is that there's a long-time user with very, very high reputation who has seen a lot of other people's questions and answers and is active on MSO and over time formed their opinion on it. Based on what they experienced, nothing more and nothing less.
 
@cigien So... the reason you want to add an "in my opinion" qualifier is because it says something about an ethnic group? If it said something like, "There's a bunch of vote fraud going on in the [xyz] tag...systemic problem", that'd be totally OK with you? If that's the case, then I don't feel the arguments you've made here are even internally consistent, and we go back to the mention of an ethnic group being the actual thing that's gotten stuck in your craw.
Not that it actually mentions an ethnic group. It mentions a geographical location. :-)
 
@cigien following your logic, then any comments that group users based on anything would be in violation... including some official posts...
 
@CodyGray The transcript will tell if I'm a liar, but that was my point throughout. The issue here is that it's a opinionated claim about an aspect of users they have no control over, whether it's ethnicity, geographical origin (not location), gender etc, which should be treated with greater care.
 
It doesn't say origin. It's talking about a location. Under your logic, that's a choice: I can choose where to live.
Although I don't see how that's relevant.
 
10:37 AM
@DalijaPrasnikar No, if the statements are based on facts (such as developer surveys, etc). that's fine. If the statements are based on opinion, but it's clear that it's only opinion based, that's fine too.
 
That response right there is why I said what I did. You are no longer focusing on what you claim has been your consistent objection, that it was mentioning a specific geographical location. You are saying that anything not based on facts must be qualified by a specific qualification of "in my opinion".
 
@CodyGray That's very relevant. Judging someone for where they live is vastly different from mocking someone for where they were born.
 
@cigien experience is always personal, so it will always form "opinions"
 
Meh. I don't see a big difference between the two.
 
@CodyGray Wait, are you suggesting that Hans is saying that "users who are currently physically located in that region get more upvotes"? That's really not how I read "from".
 
10:41 AM
Uh, yes.
 
@CodyGray Ah, then we disagree fundamentally on this.
 
Where are you "from", in the context of this site?
We can't use me as an example, because my living situation is...weird at the moment.
But I would say that normally, where you are currently living and accessing the site from is where you are "from".
It's certainly all that Hans or even a moderator would know. Birth certificates aren't among the PII that we track.
Regarding place-of-birth vs. place-of-origin, I don't really see the difference. It's not as if most people have the luxury of moving out of/away from their birth place even if they want to. Not to mention that all sorts of conditioning would be in effect upon their desires.
Hey, how dare you come in here with an off-topic request for... oh wait. :-)
 
@CodyGray Fascinating. I was assuming Hans wasn't tracking users geographical locations at all. I rather assumed they were basing it on things like avatars and profile names. What are you basing your experience on? Do you look up user's current geographical location often enough to have arrived at this conclusion?
 
@cigien I don't know for sure what Hans's basis is, of course. We have similar opinions most of the time, and similar subject-matter expertise, but we have no mental telepathic connections. But, based on the phrasing and the fact that one's (current) geographical location is mentioned in the profile page, to me, that makes the most sense. And, yes, I regularly look up geographical location when investigating vote fraud. Think IP addresses.
 
Since it's at least questionable whether the sentence is misleading or not, I would advise to refrain from editing it. You might want to leave a comment under the answer and ask them. (It's eerily close to advise I gave earlier ;)).
 
10:50 AM
@CodyGray Of course, there's no way to tell what Hans is basing this on. I'll be sure to ping them, I'd love to hear their views on this. Note that Hans doesn't have the same tools to investigate voter fraud that you do, so without actually having asked them yet, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess they're basing it on more readily identifiable things like avatars and profile names. Which are more likely to be indicators of origin, not location.
Wait, was Hans ever a moderator?
@JeanneDark :D Actually, your earlier point was about changing intent. That's definitely not the case here, it's only about additional clarity, and whether that's necessary.
 
It's still almost the same advise :D
 
@JeanneDark You don't have full edit privileges, do you?
 
I'm not sure, but I don't think Hans was a mod. But that's just my opinion (still looking for evidence to back that up)
@cigien No, you need 2k rep
 
@cigien Why do you assume they're basing it on profile names and avatars instead of the actual location field that appears in every user's profile? Wouldn't that be less prone to error? It doesn't require mod privileges to see that field; it's a public part of every profile.
He was not ever a moderator.
 
Occam's razor. It's certainly possible that they went to user profiles as often as they saw avatars and usernames, it's just not the simpler explanation. Like I said, it's a guess, I'll ask them for sure.
 
10:56 AM
Weird. I'd be more likely to make the determination by looking at a field expressly intended to convey that information, rather than trying to make error-prone assumptions. I wonder if maybe you're using the wrong end of the razor?
I can't say for sure; I stopped shaving several years back and have found it to be a great pleasure not to have to scrape my face raw each morning.
 
@CodyGray Don't you have to actually go to a profile to see that information?
 
Yes?
Seeing information about users involves visiting their profiles.
Not hard to believe that someone would do that.
 
I look at almost no profiles (except to investigate spam) which is probably uncommon, but I would still be surprised if Hans, or most users, looked at the same number of profiles as they do usernames/avatars. Simply because that requires more effort. And yeah, Occam's razor was not the right term. I'm looking for the term that basically means: people are more likely to be lazy than not :p
 
I think your not looking at profiles is unusual, actually, rather than being the norm.
 
That's what I said. Well, I said uncommon, but same thing pretty much.
 
11:03 AM
@cigien Principle of Least Effort? Zipf's Law?
 
"Uncommon" and "abnormal" are not mutually exclusive.
 
Hmm, I'm not sure if people are confused, or making jokes, but to clarify: I don't look at a lot of user profiles. I believe that's uncommon and unusual. I take it users look at user profiles quite a lot.
 
Back in the early days, I think I looked at the profile of almost every user whose question I answered.
 
@CodyGray Principle of Least Effort, that's the one, thanks :)
 
Usually after answering, or at least already deciding to answer. It wasn't because I was trying to figure out if they "deserved" an answer or whatever. It was more of a, "Who did I just help?" kind of curiosity.
Sometimes, also, in the early days, it was a "How can I best tailor my answer to this user's experience level and/or expertise?" kind of thing, since the guidelines that we didn't care about the asker so much as the knowledge base were not as clearly established in the early days.
 
11:08 AM
Wow, really? I hardly ever look at profiles, unless there's a very good reason.
Hmm, the tailoring answers to user's experience kind of makes sense.
 
The curiosity about who you helped still makes sense to me, too.
:51445371 It's probably best if you don't delete requests, even when they're acted upon. They can just be moved to the Graveyard after being actioned. This preserves transparency.
 
Ah, I don't have that at all. I like helping people, but who they are is something I'm usually indifferent to. At least as far as helping out on the Main site goes.
 
@CodyGray I mean, in my early days, it was kind of like, "Wow! These people are from all over the world!" Maybe I was just naive...
 
You mean that you discovered that there were places outside the USA, only because of SO?
 
Heh. No.
Don't be silly.
Just that I discovered there were programmers outside of the USA :-p
 
11:12 AM
I get that. I can see some reasons why people like looking at user profiles; there's an appeal to doing that.
 
@cigien You should. It's fun to browse their github repos, and some have interesting links in their bios :d
Speaking of which, Cody's bio says his email is codygray at google's mail server, but doesn't clarify which one. googlemail.com or gmail.com?
 
I have definitely seen Cody's profile, and the email address. I've sent them several emails asking why they keep deleting my posts ;)
 
Which one has the better hate-mail filter?
 
Do you get hate-mails?
 
@oguzismail I have a vague memory that they're aliased to each other, but that vague memory might be wrong...
 
11:15 AM
@oguzismail I don't think it matters?
Ah, Ryan and I have the same memories. :-)
@oguzismail Literally every day.
 
@CodyGray really? wow
yeah they are aliased, tested now
@CodyGray You should select the best ones and publish them :D
 
I'm tempted to send Cody a nice email for variety, but that might just add to the clutter :-)
 
I did get one nice email one time. I was after a Meta comment thread, where I revealed that moderators were often victims of hate mail, sometimes even threats of harm. Someone saw that and decided to reach out with a thanks, just to create a change of pace.
 
Dear Cody, I think you're the best moderator ever. Except when you deleted my answer linking my blog; and when you suspended me; and when you deleted my other account, and when...
 
Technically Cody did delete one of my answers... :-) although I remember thanking them for cleaning up the old link-only answer.
 
11:20 AM
@AdrianMole I have, actually, gotten emails from people that were pleas to me as the "good"/"best" moderator, to override those other "evil"/"bad" moderators who suspended their account/deleted their socks/nuked their spam/whatever.
 
hehe
 
They thought I was "nice" or something because I replied to one of their Meta posts.
 
Ha. In how many of those cases were you also the other "evil" moderator?
 
You reply to chat messages too, you're nice indeed
 
But not all those replies are nice.
 
11:22 AM
@RyanM Plenty.
But not all!
 
If I were moderating a website this big, I wouldn't be nice at all
 
To be fair, I have some help. At moderating, I mean. I don't have to do it all myself.
Not for the other stuff I do at work. There, I have no help. It does indeed make me not-so-nice. :-(
 
Why, what do you do at work?
 
Was my closure here poor? Some commentators think so.
 
@oguzismail Everything.
@AdrianMole No, that seems reasonable. But I found a better dupe. I'mma update.
 
11:28 AM
@CodyGray Including mopping the floors or is there someone else for doing that?
 
@CodyGray Fair enough.
 
@oguzismail She recently quit. Fortunately, I've been remote this past year due to COVID, so that can't become my job. However, when I was in the office, I regularly had to take on tasks as ridiculous as that. But, no; I truly did not mean "everything". More accurately, I meant that I meant that I am the only embedded software engineer and one of two hardware engineers on something like a dozen or more projects.
@AdrianMole I'm not sure what they're complaining about in the comments. I don't see why they disagree that it is a duplicate.
 
Yeah. I raised it here rather than further engagement in the comments. Hope that's not against Wroom Roolz.
 
Not even remotely. You're asking for feedback, and there's no implicit request for action to be taken, since no action was needed at all.
 
@CodyGray Huh, yeah, that's too much
 
11:33 AM
Especially because all but one or two are literal death marches due to the schedule alone, aside from the resource shortages.
 
The complaint (based solely on the comments) appears to be that it is a different question with the same answer, which neglects the reputation of the person asking the duplicate. Since that's misunderstanding the concept of duplicates, I wouldn't worry about the closure, though maybe there's a relevant meta post somewhere to explain the concept.
 
Ask Jeanne. Maybe when she gets finished solving the captcha, she can find one.
 
12:01 PM
@cigien I think it wasn't explained so well why it appears so obvious it's their opinion only. In my opinion, the burden of proof is on the author. Unless they cite a source (or I happen to know they're correct) and it's clearly a source for the claim in question, I'll assume it's only their opinion. I would agree with you if it was a CW answer to a FAQ and so represented some kind of official stance. But it's not, it's clearly just Hans' answer, nothing more and nothing less.
 
@JeanneDark I see, that's probably the best approach to have. I'll admit, I treat these things a little bit differently. While I understand that it's an opinion, I also generally assume that opinion is based in fact/evidence when all of the surrounding content so clearly is. It's basically that I start trusting someone when they turn out to be consistently right, and I'll take their word for things even if they don't cite, or provide evidence, for every single statement.
I was just a little taken aback to see a statement for which there was no evidence to back it up whatsoever. And my concern was that the statement is one that could potentially cause offense. To people (originally or currently) from that geographic group, and to other people as well. If it was just a baseless opinion, or a fact based statement about a group, I wouldn't be concerned at all.
 
"I start trusting someone when they turn out to be consistently right" Yes, so, why is this case different?
It's definitely not a baseless opinion. It's one informed by experience, subjective as that may be.
Cultural differences are real. Pointing them out isn't necessarily bigotry, although it has to be done very carefully.
 
Like I said, I think it best to be much more careful when it comes to certain matters.
 
OK, I give up. I've been trying to locate the Meta post you've all been talking about. Fascinated by mentions of "fraud," ethnicity and my Guru (Hans). Any chance of a link to help an old man out?
 
It was linked back somewhere in the transcript by yours truly.
 
12:14 PM
I looked. Maybe I'll look again, now that the coffee has set in...
 
@AdrianMole It's here
 
@CodyGray Yes, exactly. And I think a little more care could be taken with the wording in that answer, that's all. I'm not claiming any profound problem. Just the potential for a little bit of rewording.
 
@JeanneDark Thanks. I owe you some serial votes. ;-P
 
I actually think the wording is pretty gentle and careful.
 
That's reasonable. I think it could be improved ever so slightly.
 
12:16 PM
@AdrianMole Take your time ;) I still have a pending custom flag
 
And now we learn the key to Jeanne's flagging accuracy: most of her flags are still pending. :-)
 
It's the only one currently :)
 
@CodyGray To clarify, when I started the conversation, my feeling was that the wording was unacceptable. I definitely don't feel so strongly any longer. After some time, I may not feel that any rewording is necessary at all. At the moment, I still feel that it could be slightly improved though.
 
It's pretty easy to convince me that wording can be improved.
I just don't necessarily think that adding "in my opinion" is an improvement, since it's quite well implied.
That doesn't exclude the possibility that there are other things to improve.
 
I'm going to give it some more thought. I'm not really sure how I would improve it currently.
 
12:20 PM
I don't think I've ever seen wording that couldn't be improved. Including my own.
 
Yes. I'm not sure if we're disagreeing about something or not :p
 
I think there was that one thing.
 
You either agree with Cody or you're wrong ;)
 
Cough. Says the person who disagrees with me about edits.
 
Even if I agree to disagree?
 
12:23 PM
I am not likely to do that.
 
Yeah, me too. Though it sometimes is the only choice after a while.
 
You can just keep repeating yourself. I find that works relatively well.
 
Or you can just keep repeating yourself.
 
Would that work?
 
I find that works relatively well.
 
12:27 PM
I have success with repeating myself.
 
Right. Where are those strawberries...
 
@JeanneDark I meant to reply to this earlier, but got distracted. Your advice about edits that might change intent, etc, is very good. My personal feeling is that once you've edited posts for a while, you start getting a sense for when they are very likely not going to change the intent. It's not a perfect system of course, but over time, the cases where I've had to retract my edits has dropped steadily. Currently, I would make edits that I would not have 2 months ago, and so on.
 
@cigien I understand your point and I would have kept quiet hadn't Cody been somewhat critical (while the OP had not yet replied).
 
So, you only came out disagreeing with me because I disagreed first?
That sounds like a fun chain of events. :-)
 
I'm Spartacus!
 
12:34 PM
@JeanneDark That's fair. It wouldn't have been obvious that my edit was fine, until the OP confirmed it. It's also worth bearing in mind that even Cody can be wrong sometimes :)
 
Huh?
 
I just thought the question was pretty crappy. I wasn't something I'd have taken the time to edit.
 
Also fair. I guess the fact that you wouldn't have bothered to edit it, implied that you thought it wasn't worth editing.
 
That seems a restatement of the same point of view.
@SurajRao Maybe. I can't tell; it's too unclear.
 
12:38 PM
@CodyGray Hmm, is it? There are things I wouldn't bother to edit, but would be very happy if someone else did.
 
Then why don't you get off of your lazy bum and do it yourself?
 
^ Someone's gonna flag you for that! :-)
 
@CodyGray Because I'm lazy? Wait, no, because there might be other things at the moment that might be more worthy of my time. That sounds way better :)
 
You were saying, @AdrianMole? :-)
@cigien Oh yeah! I like that. I'm going to steal that.
 
You're welcome :D
 
12:41 PM
It's still a value judgment, though. It wasn't worth your time to edit it. Your editing it was worth less than the other things you considered more worthy of your time.
 
Can a bum be lazy? I mean, as in the body part. Like a lazy eye?
 
And, by extension, since I see other people's time as similar in value to my own, if it wasn't worth my time to edit, why would it be worth theirs?
2
@AdrianMole Mine is. It certainly doesn't have very good vision.
 
I just wish people wouldn't consume both their time and mine by submitting half-baked edits to the review queue.
 
@AdrianMole Think of them as delicious little chunks of raw cookie dough.
 
Now you've gone and reminded me about that delicious Ben & Jerry's ice cream ... and I don't have any.
 
12:51 PM
I love such edits, "edited title" and whole body is a mess, or added tag...
 
Is this just gibberish (plus a copy/paste of the Q title), or is it rude gibberish?
 
It's rude to post gibberish on this site. This isn't a gibberish site.
 
@AdrianMole its Hindi.. rough translation: Bro, payment is not successful with number
Would be Non English NAA
 
I was going with VLQ or NAA but I didn't know if it was some kind of street slang.
 
No, just non-English NAA, as Suraj said.
 
1:02 PM
Which is why I asked.
 
Ah, I see.
 
I can translate English gibberish (in fact, I'm something of an expert, as I work in academia). But other languages' gibberishes are beyond my grasp.
 
yes.. it is harder if it is a mix of languages with English script...
 
BTW, at the risk of confusing readers, that's NAA feedback to Smokey, but a R/A flag is perfectly fine.
 
otherwise google translate would suffice
 
1:06 PM
Yeah. There was a mini-spate of Hindi spams in Latin script a while ago. Fortunately, there's a regular in SOBotics who could translate them for us.
 
@cigien why R/A though? non english isnt rude....
 
It wasn't an answer. It pasted the Q title. I would say that's abuse of the site.
 
Gibberish text is R/A. That includes non-English text on an English-only website.
 
@SurajRao I'll let a mod confirm, but on Main, non-English is never acceptable, and users are not expected to be able to know the language being used. In the interest of getting rid of that content as soon as possible, a R/A flag is good. For Smokey on the other hand, there's no rush, so it can be given the appropriate NAA feedback when the judgement can be made.
 
As is copy-pasting the text of the question into the answer box.
 
1:12 PM
have been flagging non english content as NAA.. The FAQ says low quality or NAA...
 
{Matter for Charcoal HQ, not here!}
 
@AdrianMole Yeah, I agree. I hadn't actually read the post enough to see that it had just copied text from the question. I was just checking the rudeness of the non-English. I would report the user, but the user no longer exists (mods are fast on SO).
And yeah, in general, best to discuss this in Charcoal, but in this case I think it's ok, since it deals with a single post and not multiple posts by the same user. I'm not entirely sure on what counts as user moderation in this room, so don't take my word for this part.
 
Can it be user moderation when there's no user? :-)
 
Ex-user moderation?
 
1:19 PM
(void)user?
 
Casting to void doesn't destroy the object...
 
But casting into the void does.
 
I came close to posting something about void pointers, at one stage. Thought better of it, in the end.
 
Here? Or a question on the main site?
 
1:23 PM
On Main ... about mis-use of language/concepts like "the function returns a void type" rather than "the function has a void return type."
 
Weekends are awfully quiet. I went through my backlog and I still have 46 CVs
 
@Dharman Watch Bob Ross while you do that. :D
 
Let me check if there are any off-topic questions
 
@CodyGray Lucky for me that I didn't post it, then. :)
 
1:26 PM
This is also fun. Also relevant.
 
The void type is an incomplete type that cannot be completed. :-)
 
@CodyGray I'm not convinced of the logic of this. Sure, everyone's time is similarly valuable, but people might be more or less willing to invest their time in certain areas. e.g. there are things that I find to be worth my time, like writing watches, that I wouldn't necessarily suggest is worth someone else's time. Similarly, there are things that are not worth my time, in the sense that I don't really want to do it, but I'm very glad that others find it worth their time to do.
Your claim, and the way you phrased the original statement that Jeanne picked up on, is that if it's not worth your time, then by definition it's not worth anyone else's, and that makes me a little uncomfortable.
 
I wouldn't wish or expect for other people to do things that I do not believe are worth my time to do. Now, that doesn't mean that it isn't more efficient for certain people to do certain things, due to their expertise, privileges, interest, etc. But, in general (and by this I mean more "in the abstract"), if I don't think it's worth my time to do something, I probably am not going to think it's worth someone else's time to do it, either.
 
Ah, the "in the abstract" makes it clearer what you mean. So is something "worth doing at all" is how you're looking at it. I agree with that. I wouldn't suggest to people they do things that are, in my opinion, not worth doing at all.
 
Should I flag this for reversal or wait 2 days? stackoverflow.com/q/65750948/1839439
 
1:41 PM
@Dharman Do you mean canceling the bounty and closing the question? Do you think that the question is causing harm? It doesn't seem to be attracting low-quality answers. I'm not even sure that it's off-topic, save for maybe being too broad.
 
It's definitely too broad. I believe it should be closed.
 
Doesn't seem that broad to me. "Q: Is it possible for a website to access hardware? A: No, that'd be a huge security risk, and so it simply isn't allowed."
 
The comment in the accepted answer even seems to suggest that the answerer believes the question is off-topic
 
I'd edit-out the bit about being willing to pay.
 
1:44 PM
@AdrianMole Ah, definitely. Good call.
 
Ok, then I just downvote the question and let it go
 
@CodyGray But it wasn't worthy of my time. xD
 
1:56 PM
This is NAA right? And does it being CW make any difference? stackoverflow.com/a/65867787
 
@cigien I suppose it means you can edit it to turn it into a proper answer? :-)
 
@cigien It's a yes/no question so "it is indeed the case" might be considered an answer. ("Are my observations correct?", "..., right?")
 
@cigien And does it being CW make any difference? Would it ever?
 
It is not the case that "it is indeed the case" is not an answer?
 
@JeanneDark I'd agree with that. It's an attempt at least, even without the link. Not NAA IMO.
 
1:58 PM
@JeanneDark Yeah, that makes sense.
@AdrianMole Probably not. But I'm not sure, hence my question.
 
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