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12:03 AM
Someone upvoted that second flagged post! If only I'd known all I had to do was post "good question. very good question actually" it would have made getting rep so much easier...
 
 
1 hour later…
1:18 AM
@sideshowbarker Contrary to close-votes by you and @HovercraftFullOfEels, that's not a request for an off-site resource. I do, however, agree that it needed to be closed as unclear. Apparently, by virtue of my being a moderator, the system let my 1 vote outweigh your 2 votes, showing 'unclear' as the final reason. But I still have to nitpick about that not being a resource request. If it were more clear, it'd be a fine question.
(Sorry for the false ping to @Ruli, who had previously posted a [cv-pls] for that exact same question. His, however, was requesting closure on the basis of the question being unclear, which I actually agree with.)
@πάνταῥεῖ What is that question missing in terms of an MCVE? Can you leave a comment? When a question includes code that is not obviously missing anything or obviously too long, the MCVE close reason is not sufficient to explain the problem to the asker (or, often, even other close voters).
 
@CodyGray You’re right. Even at the moment where I marked it as off-site request, I thought that wasn’t accurate. In hindsight, should have just used unclear.
 
@AdrianMole no - voted to delete
 
1:33 AM
@desertnaut That was also my conclusion. I left the comment but refrained from flagging.
.. in fact, the other (other) answer is also pretty much the same thing. But neither is outright plagiarism, I think.
 
@AdrianMole Normally, we prefer that you do that in the opposite way...
 
@CodyGray You think that's a sufficiently close copy for a mod flag?
 
Not for plagiarism.
 
NAA? But it is an answer.
 
Late repost of an existing answer; adds nothing new to the discussion.
 
1:37 AM
I custom flagged as "repeat of essentially same answer above"
 
For extra fun, raise a mod flag on a Q&A with a dozen answers saying, "Repeat of another answer", without linking to the original answer.
 
Heh - Have I done that, to your knowledge?
 
I have no idea if any specific person has done it. I do know that it happens pretty often, and I really wish it wouldn't.
 
@CodyGray You should send them a message telling them their flag was unclear but not mention which flag
4
 
"I found one of your contributions to this site to be unclear. Please don't make that mistake again."
4
 
1:41 AM
That would take snark to a whole new level.
 
Not even close to a "new" level. There's a textbox mods can type into when approving or declining any flag. It might as well be labeled: "Any snarky comments to add?"
 
1:56 AM
Hmmm. I also disapprove of truncating CCR, but not really a flaggable offence.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:38 AM
Anyone know what this question's referring to? (stackoverflow.com/questions/65746229/…).
OP said that he was suspended for asking a question that needed more focus
 
3:57 AM
@Spectric Question ban, maybe? Or just plain trolling, more likely.
 
@AdrianMole Uh oh found another one stackoverflow.com/users/15016658/petono7861
Oh dear. Might be mistaken but he might have just pressured OP to delete the question altogether. stackoverflow.com/questions/65746319/…
 
@Spectric 2 of their 3 "answers" are gone, please flag the last as r/a
 
Flagged as "spam"
 
@Spectric I think R/A is more appropriate, they're not trying to sell/promote anything, just fill the site with crap
 
hm. Yes, you're right
 
 
1 hour later…
5:35 AM
@TylerH yeah a reinstall and restarting browser seems to have done it
thanks
 
^ note the suggested edit | Someone else is translating for OP
 
 
1 hour later…
6:55 AM
@Spectric Could I ask you to refrain from sharing links to user profiles? It might give the impression that we're moderating users, which is best avoided.
 
7:35 AM
@Spectric It happens more often than you would think. Someone gets their question closed for a legitimate reason, becomes apoplectic for reasons unknowable, and then discovers the rate-limits that are applied to all users, but wrongly associates that with their question being closed and/or the individual users who voted to close their question. They embark on a campaign of rage, either against the site or against the specific users whom they perceive to have slighted them (or both).
Best to just flag this sort of thing as "rude or abusive" and move on. There's no sense in trying to understand it, there's limited sense in discussing it (although sometimes humour can be had, but that can be dangerous), and there's definitely no sense in wasting time dallying over it.
 
8:26 AM
@Scratte I found one of your pythonista cousins :)
 
@CodyGray don't worry I was sleeping like a baby and do not even know which question was that about :)
 
9:06 AM
 
9:17 AM
[Mick adds "apoplectic" to list of words to try to use publicly 2021]
 
@mickmackusa unless you're planning to have a stroke, the virtue of "meekness" is well advised and opposed to apoplectic, you might notice its use is no less rare and perhaps even more warranted. (If folks add the virtues opposed to arrogance and vanity to that, they'll be on the right track :) )
 
@jps Minor point, you linked to a comment instead of the question. I'm not sure if that affects anything, just thought I'd mention it.
 
jps
@cigien oops, thanks. I was just revisiting questions on which I left a comment recently
 
10:03 AM
is this question from SD reported answer ok?
 
It seemed reasonable to me, at least not crying out for closure.
Although an edit wouldn't be unwelcome.
 
10:32 AM
 
@SmokeDetector ignore-
 
10:46 AM
Ohh I got gold in jasper reports... ha watch me have fun with that
 
enjoy the hammer
 
Hammer in low traffic tag will be fun :)
 
@Braiam @Dharman Sockpuppet accounts which violate the rules for using multiple accounts are typically deleted, particularly those which do so with respect to voting between the accounts. Unless there are a very large number of votes by the deleted user, the votes are immediately invalidated upon deletion. Above certain thresholds, the invalidation of those votes by the deleted user is kicked up to CMs to make a choice as to if the votes should be invalidated.
Above other thresholds, deletion of the user by moderators is not allowed by the system. In order for such a user to be deleted, the action must be requested to be performed by the CMs.
As far as I know the issue about not unaccepting answers when votes are invalidated was fixed in 2017. See Unaccept answers when votes are invalidated.
Ah.. reading further in the transcript, I see that wasn't quite what you were discussing. It looks like you found the correct MSO post for the issue: Do sock-puppeteers get to keep rep from answers accepted by their sock-puppet account?
And, of course, this was also handled later in the transcript, so this monologue wasn't needed at all. :;
 
11:03 AM
@Makyen Glad to see I'm not the only one :-)
 
:)
 
Is editing a question with one account and answering it with the other account allowed? Both accounts belong to the same person if that's not clear. There doesn't seem to be any kind of voting fraud
 
Editing would be voting fraud, unless the editing account has enough rep to have full editing privileges.
Answering would be voting fraud if the answer was accepted.
So, chances are, no, that would not be allowed. Cardinal rule is that you cannot use a second account to do what a single account could not do.
 
Hmm I taught it was the contrary
 
The situation here is, editing account has full editing privileges, and edit is minor. Answering account has a couple hundreds of rep, the answer isn't accepted yet. I can raise a flag if you want to see the post where this happened @Cody
 
You can't use another account to do what you can't do with first
Shog9 always said it was OK to use other accounts as long as you did not break that rule
 
11:57 AM
@PetterFriberg I think that's exactly what I said?
 
Ahh yeah maybe I misread your statement
 
I was certainly trying to say the same thing as Shog9 did, in exactly that post you were thinking of.
@oguzismail Yeah, I mean, if it makes you uncomfortable, you should raise a flag. That's the main thing. It sounds suspicious to me, but I can't say for sure. No harm in a mod investigating it.
I mean, why would a user with editing privileges be creating a sockpuppet account to answer their questions? Smells like voting fraud abrewing, even if it hasn't actually happened yet. Call me skeptical.
 
I would be free to edit with one account and answer with other as long as my accounts does not accept edits, mark accepted etc
 
Probably, yes.
But I think that's a big if, and I'd have to question the motivations for doing so if not setting yourself up for voting fraud.
 
@CodyGray Done. I might not have described it clearly, better see for yourself
 
12:01 PM
As long as there is no interaction I guess you need to wait until it happens
 
\o
o/
 
\o/
 
@oguzismail Heh. I have a note there already. Certainly weird behavior. Will dig more.
 
@CodyGray Because the user doesn't want to use their apparent "knowledge" to make their answer seems like more valid? As always, I have an example elsewhere where a user created an account to answer questions because they didn't want to use their privileges.
 
Yeah. I don't know what people are trying to convince me of, exactly.
The rules are clear enough. That doesn't change that what smells suspicious usually is.
 
12:06 PM
Thanks
 
@CodyGray That maybe is not suspicious at all?
If I wanted to do something against the rules, I would use obscure tags to do it.
 
Heuristics aren't perfect.
But they work well for deciding when to raise flags.
One note, @oguzismail... Referring to your "previous flag" in a subsequent flag doesn't work well. I happened to see and understand it this time, because I was looking at your specific user's chronological flag history, but that's not normally how flags are presented. If you need to refer to a prior flag in one of your flag messages, you need to link to the post that you flagged.
 
I'm not even sure Shog9 rule is ok, in some cases I see how another account is needed to improve transparency but some how people using multiple accounts should be forced to indicate it somewhere as in profile
 
The good news is, human moderators handle these cases, not machines.
 
Yeah but less transparency for mortals
 
12:19 PM
@CodyGray Didn't know linking to the post was enough. Thanks
 
@PetterFriberg I don't see why that is a problem. Often, an investigation/consideration of confidential information is required to make the best decision, and that shouldn't be transparent to anyone else.
 
Meeh using 2 accounts on same post even if it's allowed seems confusing for other users. Some how other users should be considered
But maybe it falls on first rule :), since you would not have confused users with only one
 
12:35 PM
@Dharman Isn't it acceptable if the OP approves the translation? Or does it have to be literally translated by the OP?
 
It also already has an accepted answer, so I don't think it's a question of what the OP does or doesn't understand.
 
I never trust OP. They didn't know how to post it English so why should I trust them to know the translation is correct
 
@Dharman I don't follow. I assume that in most cases when the OP translates themselves they are getting help from someone else, or is using an online translation machine. What makes you think they understand the translation in that case?
 
I prefer the OOTB behavior: I verify that the translation is correct. If I can't I leave it to someone else to do it :D
 
12:38 PM
The translation was suggested by someone else. I don't know why OP accepted it or whether it is correct. All I know is that we should never translate questions.
 
Are you suggesting me is that the Goggle is never to be translating the wrongly?
 
Btw, the translation is more of a interpretation. The original in italian just say "I'm getting this error, here's the code", without explanation of what the OP wants to do.
 
@Dharman Yes, we shouldn't translate questions. But if it's a suggested edit that the OP accepts, I fail to see how that's fundamentally different than someone else translating the question offline for the OP, which we would of course accept.
 
"probleminha" -> "small problem" :D
 
If you think that the question is ok after the translation then you can remove my cv-pls.
 
12:42 PM
@Braiam problemino
But yeah it was not in Italian:)
 
It's portuguese :D
 
Yeah you fooled me..
 
I don't know enough to tell you if it's Brazil or Portugal portuguese
 
Is this NAA? Edit: never mind, it was :-)
 
Capo Verde?
 
12:46 PM
Are comments being loaded async? The question that Ryan linked started to inform me of "new comments", posted in 2019!
 
Have been for a long time
 
Huh? So it isn't included in the original html? I didn't know that.
 
Oh
Sorry.
They're loaded asynchronously when new ones appear. A new one appeared there because I converted an answer to a comment.
That's why it was "new" despite being posted in 2019.
 
Oh, that was bizarre :D
 
Mod actions often are :-)
 
12:48 PM
@RyanM those edge cases where some mods consider them comments others answers :)
 
@Dharman I understand your desire to close questions. In this case, your stated close reason is incorrect. If you feel that the question should be closed for some other reason, then the onus is really on you to at least provide that reason. I don't feel it's appropriate to just ask others to come up with reasons to close the question. It's your cv-pls after all. If you don't have a specific reason why the question should be closed, could I ask you to ping an RO to bin the cv-pls request?
 
My reason was that the question was posted not in English.
If you disagree then it's fine. I don't mind it.
 
If it didn't have an accepted answer by the OP, I think Dharman would have a stronger case. In this case, I think the situation has shifted from one where the OP matters to one where the question is just an addition to our knowledge base.
Feel free to resubmit if you think the question should be closed for a different reason, of course.
 
@CodyGray For future reference, in case I've misunderstood something, is the OP accepting a suggested edit that translates the question not acceptable? If there's a meta about this, I'd appreciate a link as always, if you have the time of course.
 
Meh.
Case-by-case basis.
 
12:53 PM
Ah, that's fine of course. I just don't want to be questioning requests if it goes against established consensus about something. Thanks for clarifying.
 
The key element of the rationale is, don't translate something for the OP because the OP might not be able to respond appropriately.
Otherwise, normal site rules (knowledge base; OP is irrelevant) apply.
 
Indeed. One should definitely not translate questions. One could even argue for the editor of the suggested edit being suspended. I was just confused how that translates to the question needing to be closed.
 
Suspended? Gosh no.
I'm not even that attached to the "don't translate questions" guideline.
It's a weird edge-case exception to our normal rules that edits that make the post better (especially if they salvage it from the brink of closure) are always good, and that the OP is irrelevant.
While there's good logic behind it, I don't think there should be sanctions for people who don't know it.
 
The not translate guidelines according to me are stupid, If I find a good answer/question in Italian or Swedish why can't I translate it?
 
Note that it never applies to answers.
 
1:01 PM
It should not apply to questions either.. If the question is good I should be allowed to translate it (if I can)
 
@CodyGray I'm not saying I'm a fan of this approach, but I have heard it suggested (present company included?) that sanctions are actually a reasonable way to instruct users on proper protocol. One of the arguments being that users don't always read the explicitly stated guidelines anyway.
 
I can't see why we care about "OP's ability to respond"
 
Only in the case that the question lacks details or clarity and would need to be closed anyway :-)
 
Exaclty
 
Yeah, this is why I'm not sold on the rule, either.
It's another one of those things that I see as advisory, not obligatory.
 
1:05 PM
Is this on-topic?
 
@CodyGray Could I trouble you to point me at the canonical metas on this? The question not having been translated by the OP has been touted as a sufficient reason to close a question regardless of anything else, multiple times in this room. I had assumed from that it was mostly obligatory.
 
@RyanM No. Not only is it general computing (phone usage, not development), but it's trying to take a survey.
@cigien Are you rate-limited on MSO search?
This is just in a FAQ or something, where someone edited in this note.
Note, "normally". And the rationale which is given, which allows you to use your brain about the situations in which it should apply.
 
@CodyGray No. Just relying on the vast knowledge of meta at your fingertips, and your abundant generosity in sharing that :)
 
The knowledge can be at your fingertips, too! That's the magic of search.
Note that this guideline was arbitrarily added at revision #5.
And then the editor had to backtrack at revision #9 because obviously it's fine to edit answers :-)
And then the whole business was removed in revision #12, with the note that it was added after the answer was accepted (implicitly saying that it changes the meaning after the fact).
And then a then-mod modified the wording again in revision #14, softening it significantly.
Then a not-then-mod modified the wording again in revision #17.
So, once again, I am amused by what you call a "consensus".
 
@cigien with "older" mods I have got naa flags declined on non English answer because they where easy to translate. While yeah maybe the flag should not be declined but I can't see how if the mods like to translate they should not be allowed to do that
If mods are allowed well then everyone should be :)
 
1:20 PM
@CodyGray That language is much more flexible than I thought it would be. So for example, I could add a translation in a comment, ask the OP if they agree, and if they say yes, I can then edit the question. That seems to be perfectly fine according to the FAQ.
Of course, that process would not really work for requests posted in here, at least to be able to edit before it gets closed. But I've been posting cv-pls for questions I come across on main, without paying any attention to whether it might be a good question.
I'll definitely stop posting requests for those unless I'm sure it's an off-topic question regardless. I suspect getting the OP to agree won't be hard, they're usually willing to take any help people are willing to offer. And if the question is reasonable, I don't personally really care if the OP understands it. If it adds value to the site, it's good enough for me.
 
I prefer to nuke them before they've been answered. After they've been answered, we can look into saving them.
But that's different from being amenable to suspending people for trying to salvage them first.
 
@CodyGray This is it. That's exactly what consensus is. If you think consensus means that literally everyone agrees with or likes the current state of affairs, or that things won't change, then we're using the terms differently.
 
No. There's no evidence whatsoever of a consensus there.
Only people disagreeing over time.
Consensus means "a general agreement". Where do you see evidence of general agreement?
 
Uh, yeah, exactly. We're clearly using the term differently then. I think we can continue the discussion on the definition of consensus in the Ministry at some point.
 
@CodyGray Is there a reason why this question is kept on SO? stackoverflow.com/questions/56585462/…
 
1:26 PM
Yeah, it'd be interesting to see how "disagreement" is something you transform into "consensus".
@Dharman Uh... what?
 
It doesn't look on-topic to me
 
Someone closed it...
 
I assume we should probably delete it
 
Do you think it needed to be deleted at the time when it was closed? I closed it a year ago. Normally, when closing questions as lacking an MCVE, we do not delete them in order to give the person a chance to edit them.
I agree that it would be reasonable to delete it now.
 
It doesn't lack MCVE
 
1:29 PM
time to ping Cody with all the questions that need deletion
 
In my opinion it is not about programming
 
@PetterFriberg Yeah, the question of NAA flags on non-English answers is tricky. As to the second comment, "If mods are allowed well then everyone should be", in case you're not joking, I have to disagree with it completely. One of the major reasons to have mods at all is to do stuff that needs to be done, but that we don't want regular users to do.
Unless I've misunderstood, and you're talking about some specific thing that currently only mods can do that you feel regular users should be able to do as well.
 
I am not sure what exactly we allow on SO in terms of CMS management, but I believe only questions about programming should be allowed here.
 
The job of moderators isn't to translate non-English answers...
@Dharman Yes, that's a fair point, too.
It's unclear to me why you didn't just post a deletion request.
 
I wasn't sure if it should be deleted
 
1:32 PM
Well, I'm very confused. You thought it was clearly inappropriate for Stack Overflow, so why do you think it should not be deleted?
 
Because a mod closed it and left it around. :D
 
That's normal behavior
Only in exceptional circumstances are questions deleted immediately after closure.
 
@cigien in this case the mod edit the answer (using Google translate) it was an answer with 1 simple sentence and then code. To me it seems reasonable to be allowed to make such an edit. As for mods verus users the statement was only that we should have same guidelines
 
Sorry if I'm missing some subtlety in your reasoning here. I'm simultaneously browsing through several dozen pages of results on Digikey because their filtering options are insufficient to narrow down what I actually want, and that's slightly irritating me.
To be clear, @PetterFriberg, I think it's ridiculous to decline a NAA flag on a non-English answer. I don't know who did that, but I don't think the mods would do that now, nor would have done it in many years.
 
Sure and that's not the problem here I only wanted to show how this policy by meta was not accepted by older mods and I even think they were right
 
1:38 PM
@PetterFriberg Declining a NAA flag seems strange, even if they felt like translating the answer instead of deleting it. I don't agree at all with the second point. I definitely don't want the same guidelines for mods and users.
 
Hmm there I don't agree we need to have same, mods just have more privs
 
For answers, it's a choice. There are two valid choices: (1) translate it, or (2) delete it.
That applies to both mods and regular users.
A NAA flag is valid, because deletion is a valid course of action.
We should not keep inappropriate content around on the site just waiting for someone to come along who can speak the language to translate it or understands the technology well enough to translate it with machine assistance.
If that person happens to show up, whether a mod or a regular user, then it's obviously fine for them to translate instead of flagging.
 
@cigien you need to now that a few years ago many mods were more "rough" related to meta policy they followed more what their personal reasoning was.
We often had drama on meta :)
 
Plenty of mods we had handling flags a few years ago didn't even read or follow Meta on a regular basis.
 
@PetterFriberg Ah, I was unaware of that, thanks. I've only personally interacted with about 3 mods myself, and while they're quite willing to voice their disagreement with policy, they have been very good about following it. Which is nice, I'm glad that things have changed :)
 
1:46 PM
@PetterFriberg Has the drama on Meta stopped? ;-)
 
What brought about the current era of mod consistency?
 
@RyanM Attrition?
 
or...relative consistency, at least
 
@RyanM almost all new mods are peeps from here (a part from Cody that is from meta)
 
1:49 PM
@PetterFriberg What do you mean by "from here", as opposed to "from meta"? I've not heard that distinction before.
 
Anyway I really liked some of our old mods like Brad etc, meta is not always right, it does not always reflect what the community want
 
He means that most of the recently-elected mods "came up" through SOCVR. I didn't; I didn't show up here until after I was elected. However, I spent a considerable amount of time on Meta, more than most mods of the time or now.
Brad's still a mod, just not as active now. I can't think of any notable times where I've disagreed with him. He follows policy pretty consistently. And when he was actively moderating, he was active on Meta, too. (Less than me, but that's not really a fair comparison.)
 
@CodyGray Ah, I see. Fascinating, I didn't know SOCVR was a breeding ground for mods. Makes sense, actually. Plenty of learning to be had here.
 
But, Bhargav was probably one of, if not the first mod to declare that Meta was his boss and that, as mod, he was just to follow consensus/policy established on Meta.
Prior to that, it was more like you elected smart people whose judgment you trusted, and they did what they thought was best for the site.
Part of that, of course, was because Meta wasn't nearly as well-established as it is today, so it would have been a terrible boss.
"declined: I don't know what to do with this flag because a Meta search turned up nothing" :-)
 
I do like the idea of deferring to Meta. After all, if one disagrees, one can raise the objection there.
 
1:53 PM
That was always a thing.
 
Right, I meant as a mod. As opposed to doing what one thinks is right regardless of Meta.
 
It only works now that there is at least some semblance of consensus.
 
Ah, so there's a semblance at least? ;)
 
Yes, of course, on most issues.
 
Hmm, of course. The ;) was not clear enough I see.
 
1:57 PM
Still distracted; haven't memorized every item on Digikey yet.
 
@cigien yeah all following rene's rulezz. The secret Master of all his puppies:)
 
:D
 
That's just to give a small idea of what really the impact of our flower has been on SO
 
2:29 PM
🌼
 
@desertnaut You added the link from your previous request by mistake.
 
@cigien ooops... thanks, reposting
 
@desertnaut np. Just a suggestion, but since I started using the Request Generator userscript, my rate of errors of this nature has dropped considerably. That might be something you want to consider as well. Not that userscripts don't have their own issues of course :)
 
@CodyGray I'm unfortunately? not very active there anymore, but it has been a few years now that we have not had this type of popcorn chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/29186975#29186975
 
2:38 PM
I'm not sure that's Meta drama so much as SOCVR drama. But OK, both have been a bit lower, I suppose.
@HovercraftFullOfEels How's that no repro? It just seems unclear to me.
 
There was an oddly redundant comment on that question.
 
@PetterFriberg Amusing observation: the room was, back then, referred to as the SOCVR
 
@CodyGray "no repro" seems to me to also include "not likely to help future visitors" or something to that effect
or better... "resolved in a way less likely to help future readers"
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Ah, true, it does. But I'm not sure how you can tell, when the question is that unclear. Maybe it was more clear to you than it was to me?
@cigien Yes, by someone who hadn't actually voted to close. It was odd. I deleted it.
 
@CodyGray: the question was in effect, "how do I use a torque wrench to cook a pizza"
 
2:52 PM
@RyanM It also reminds of two Shog9 posts that I had forgotten about. The first, an observation about why the bounty system is terrible, but probably necessary. The second, general advice on how this room should operate.
@HovercraftFullOfEels Hmm, okay, understood. I still think it's better to close such questions as unclear or for some reason other than no repro. Even with the context you provide, no repro seems a confusing choice. If it were as simple as, "This should not be done. Use a pizza-stone over an open flame to cook a pizza.", that would be a valid Q&A that could arguably help others who are equally confused in the future.
 
@CodyGray and the answer is...they were getting a NullPointerException...somewhere.
 
@RyanM It's Java; I should have guessed. :-)
 
Gotta switch to Kotlin for that sweet, sweet language-enforced nullability.
 
I've updated the close reason after their edit.
I agree that now, with this extra information, it is clearly not useful to future viewers. I guess my crystal ball just isn't as good.
 
3:20 PM
also apparently at least Shog could move answers between questions: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/318497/…
 
@RyanM As a CM with dev access, he could do just about anything.
 
I suppose "had a tool to do so" is the more interesting bit
 
A dev tool. Or maybe one he built.
Useless for cooking pizzas.
 
Yeah, I assumed as much. Although maybe it could cook a pizza if you ran it in a loop or something.
 
3:37 PM
@CodyGray Aren't mods supposed to guide with the example?
 
I'm not sure there's much of a "supposed to", other than we're not supposed to leak PII.
 
I find the "follow mindlessly meta" to be counter productive. After all, groups are their own worst enemy :)
 
Cody writes 99% of all answers on MSO ;)
 
I think it's a pretty big leap to go from "mods should take their cue from the consensus established on Meta" to "follow Meta mindlessly".
 
@CodyGray Mods should also make their opinion on meta ;)
 
3:41 PM
Well, yeah. That I agree with.
 
If you just follow consensus, where would you express your opinion?
 
Mods are still part of the community. They still have opinions, and they still express it.
The question is, what happens when you, as an individual mod, disagree with what has become established site policy, strongly supported by the community?
@JeanneDark Yet, there's this Johnny-come-lately who keeps beating me in the Participation stats. You wouldn't happen to know what's up with that, would you? ;-)
 
@CodyGray Make the change without telling anybody ;)
 
I'll be sure to cite you as a supporter the next time I get accused of mod power abuse. :-)
 
I've found that much of meta "consensus" is just drama making. If you change things and nobody shouts, then it either isn't as important as the drama made it look like, or nobody really cared.
 
3:44 PM
@CodyGray I guess writing answers should matter more in these stats ;)
 
This is the engineering mindset. Someone has to care for something to be maintained.
That's why my extreme dislike to permanent locks.
 
You can always ask for the question to be unlocked on Meta ;-)
 
@CodyGray BTW, what I said, I literally saw it happen. There was some drama about not deleting one question, low and behold, it was deleted some months later and nobody noticed ;)
 
@JeanneDark It's a rigged game, I tell ya!
 
@CodyGray I think I just misused a comment mod-flag on main (sorry), but it's kind of related to the recent MSO post... maybe...
 
3:47 PM
@CodyGray That's the thing, that's just inviting more drama towards it. What I want is organic participation.
 
@CodyGray Don't hate the player, hate the game ;)
 
i always felt like that was a false dichotomy. Why can't I hate both?
 
@Braiam I participate with all my heart, if that helps
 
Can anyone edit this question to make the title a little more informative?
 
@CodyGray It's impossible if one of them is me ;)
 
3:49 PM
Somehow I get "suggested edit queue is full".
the question is pretty nice, but the title isn't doing any good.-- on the other hand this is socv, might be too trivial for this room.
 
@Braiam That's not entirely fair. When you ask people their opinion, and give them all the facts, they are going to have an opinion. When you later delete the post without them noticing, yeah, they're not going to have an opinion. That doesn't mean they changed their mind and suddenly agree.
@user202729 Yes, that happens when the suggested edit queue is full.
 
@CodyGray No. In this case, the meta drama was against "every kind of deletion" ;)
It's the "we delete too much" mentality. That position, makes any argument for deletion because it deserves it, to fall into deaf ears. There would be no convincing argument of the contrary. Those kind of arguments I can do without.
If you want a case in point, just read the contrarian arguments here, and animuson argument meta.stackoverflow.com/q/280829/792066
 
I don't really want to re-open this debate.
 
@CodyGray Which debate? I'm just giving examples of effective content curation ;)
(also why meta sucks)
 
If you use AutoReviewComments, their library appears abandoned so I have a beta branch. I removed their internal update script so please report any bugs
6
Good time to plug the SOCVR canned comments system for ARC
 
Better time to plug that it's ill-advised to post noisy comments underneath posts when a downvote, flag, and/or close-vote would speak louder.
2
If you're posting a comment, it should almost certainly be one that you're composing specifically for the post itself, providing unique advice that can't be canned.
 
4:31 PM
I primarily use it for custom close and the handful of useful mod comments
 
5:01 PM
... just notice that the answer that OP linked already (appears to) answer the exact same question; however OP didn't say what exactly they didn't understand.
Is "please explain this answer in simple terms" ontopic? (on the other hand we do have a "please explain Ukkonen's algorithm in simple terms" question)
 
5:42 PM
 
 
2 hours later…
 
 
1 hour later…
user10957435
8:42 PM
Do "why?" requests from smokey get removed automatically in the cleanup script?
 
@Chipster I have a feeling that all 'replies' to Smokey posts get zomped along with the origina post.
 
user10957435
@AdrianMole That's my guess too. I just thought I'd ask to be sure.
 
9:16 PM
@Chipster Yes, replies by users to SD reports (or messages posted by SD and deleted) get archived with the report (e.g. why). Replies by SD to replies to SD reports (or messages posted by SD and deleted) get archived with the report (e.g. SD's response to the why).
 
user10957435
@Makyen Okay, thanks. So if I could just ask a question: whenever I've written back "why?" to SD, I've had people here suggest the MS link. Is it preferred I use the MS link instead of replying "why?"
 
@Chipster it is, specially if the reason is "bad keyword" or similar as "why" will still post the profanities in our transcript ....
 
@Chipster Using the MS link is less noisy in the chat room, so it's preferred by many people. My personal preference is FIRE, which will show a popup upon button click which allows you to give feedback (and flag, if desired) with clicking a button. The FIRE popup will show another popup with the why info when the question title is hovered. FIRE is, by far, the interface I use the most to give feedback and flag SD reports.
I also use AIM which provides inline information about what feedback has been given and if the post has been autoflagged (and if you are one of the users who autoflagged).
 
user10957435
@rene Ah. That suddenly makes sense to me. Thank you.
 
What rene said is quite important for here in SOCVR. I must admit that I tend to forget about that issue wrt. why. :)
 
user10957435
9:28 PM
@Makyen So profanity thing aside (which I understand now), if it gets cleaned up automatically anyway, does it matter which one I use?
 
user10957435
@Makyen Yeah, I actually was reminded about a discussion we had here recently about profanities, not related to Smokey, though.
 
@Chipster Well, other people generally object to the additional messages, which are often seen as noise, given that most people get the information in other ways. If you use why routinely, you'll probably have people remind you about other ways of obtaining that information on a irregular basis.
Is there a reason you don't want to use FIRE and/or AIM?
 
user10957435
@Makyen FIRE and AIM are user scripts, right?
 
user10957435
I haven't fully warmed up to them yet. I'm still a little paranoid about user scripts.
 
user10957435
@Makyen Got you. Thanks for your help.
 
9:32 PM
@Chipster Yes, but it's also possible to load them into the page through executing code in the console, which can be placed into a bookmarklet.
 
user10957435
@Makyen Fair enough. I'll probably use them someday. Right now I'm just being lazy, I guess.
 
@Chipster If interested (e.g. if you just want to try them out), you can use the code here in a bookmarklet, or the code here copied directly into the chat room tab's console in order to run AIM and FIRE in that tab.
 
user10957435
Cool, thanks!
 
np
 
 
2 hours later…
11:35 PM
@Joshua I'm not sure I understand the close reason. The problem does appear to be in the shown code; the OP is indexing out of bounds.
 
@cigien: There's more to it. He shows the output of printf("%s", Code) and something wrote past the end.
 
@Joshua Well, yes. The shown code has UB. That's the problem. What additional debugging details does that need?
 

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