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12:00 AM
I've read that FAQ before. I don't disagree with anything in there.
Also, plenty of questions are eligible for closure for one of the official reasons because of insufficient research effort. Note that that is different from research effort itself being a close reason.
But this interpretation I'm seeing from a handful of folks that somehow lack of research effort is itself a close reason is, as I've said elsewhere, new to me, and totally indefensible.
 
Every time I research and I find a post about what I want to know, I'm always so happy that someone asked it :)
 
This is why you should pay it forward, asking questions about things that you want to know, for the benefit of others.
As you may have heard before, this is the spirit and motivation of Stack Overflow.
 
Ahh.. but almost every time I find a post, it's one of those I see gets closed all the time in the queues.
 
Honestly, I think some of the most useful questions on this site don't show any research effort. The "How do I foo the bar?"-type of question is really helpful if the underlying question is actually relevant.
If you then have the same question, you would rather find a Q/A that asks and answers the question as opposed to find some more or often less educated attempt at solving the underlying problem along with a discussion about issues with that particular solution.
 
Yup
But you do need to do some research even before asking that type of question.
 
12:09 AM
Most of those questions would not get asked today with adequate research because they'd be dupes, yeah.
 
You also have to do enough research to ensure that it's something of sufficiently narrow focus that it can be asked and answered in a Q&A format.
 
@CodyGray This is surprising to me. There's obviously a vast number of users who use no effort as a close reason, which you became aware of as a result of my meta post. It was obvious to me within a few weeks of participating in this room, that this was the case, so it's unclear to me how you went years without noticing. Things don't seem to slip by you easily, so what's up with that exactly?
 
I have a "write some code for me" question that I'd like to ask, though. I've been thinking to run an experiment. :-)
 
@CodyGray True
 
@cigien I don't know. I swear I've never noticed it before. What I would say is that I always saw other problems with the posts they were recommending closure of, problems that matched actual close reasons.
 
12:14 AM
@CodyGray That's fair. The correlation between no effort and the post being close-worthy is high. Still, there's at least a few posts that pass through this room every single day of that nature.
 
I don't see every single post that passes through this room every day.
I also even miss some of the posts on the main site! :-O
 
I'm shocked :D
@CodyGray In C++? I'll admit, asking useful how-to questions that aren't dupes is hard (not counting new language features of course). What do you have in mind?
 
@cigien Yes, ideally in C++. Would also accept submissions in C. :-) Basically, I need someone to implement a symmetrical sigmoidal (4PL) curve-fitting function for me. I've Googled everywhere, but I haven't been able to find sample code in any language that I can adapt.
 
@CodyGray At first blush, that's too broad I feel.
 
Yeah, I'm struggling with how to make it less broad. It's actually very well defined. Write a simple function that does this. But I don't know. I could give a specific example of inputs and the curve I'm looking for. That might help. But it also kinda just seems like pointless busy-work.
 
12:21 AM
You could ask about parsing and sorting a string in one go :)
I remember a java one that was closed - reopened - reclosed - deleted.
 
Or another obscure question; everyone loves those.
(I actually like them, they are fun. :) )
 
@BaummitAugen Oh cool. I've offered a bounty on a language-lawyer question that expires in a few hours. Want to give it a shot?
No-one's offered an answer yet :( Expect for a GCC bug report that's somewhat tangential.
 
is this Server Fault or customer support? stackoverflow.com/questions/65140178/…
 
I'll read it, but not sure if I can still brain enough tonight to tackle a hard question. :)
Probably not.
 
Ah, I see why I haven't been gaining SO rep...I've been answering language questions on ELL and ELU, and lawyer questions on Law.SE, but I haven't been answering questions.
 
12:27 AM
Sure, no rush. Except for the bounty ;) It has over 150 views which is good for that tag. I suspect most users who can answer will have seen it by now.
 
The thing about language-lawyer questions is that pretty much everyone does love them. Nothing controversial there.
 
(and if you check my profile, you'll see that those sites are actually where I have rep...plus MSE)
(great coincidence or most elaborate pun setup...you decide)
 
@cigien There are more standard-savvy people than me in ; if it stood that long, it's probably too hard for tonight. =D
 
@CodyGray Yeah, true, and it's a related problem with the 4PL problem. By the time you've narrowed it down and added figures and what not, and it's answerable, you'll have shown sufficient effort :( For the experiment, the question needs to be clear but also straightforward to ask. That really gets to people for some reason.
 
Yup, that's why the 4PL problem seems ideal.
It looks like no effort, when I've really spent over a week working on it and thinking about it and researching it.
(Zero time actually writing any code, but uh, yeah, that's not all programmers do.)
 
12:31 AM
@RyanM Just Answer cigien's Question then :)
 
@CodyGray Hmm, you think you can ask that in a way that's clear, and also shows no research effort. Ok, I can't picture it exactly myself, but that could work.
 
"I want this"
 
@BaummitAugen No worries. I might increase the bounty as well :)
 
How much more clear can it get?
"How do I do x?"
 
That only makes it clear that you want something. It being clear what you want depends very much on what x is.
 
12:34 AM
I suppose. I'm struggling to see how there would be any lack of clarity about what I want.
Imagine something a bit more intuitive: I want to perform linear regression.
So, how do I perform linear regression given a table of values in C++?
 
@Scratte it turns out that I am better at handling language and lawyering separately, or maybe I just don't know C++ :-p
If someone wants to language-lawyer me about the Java Memory Model, though, I'm game. (I believe you've experienced this)
 
Java language lawyers are like the ambulance chasers? Unglamorous, but somebody's gotta do it.
 
@RyanM That's great. I always get confused about the subtleties of the memory model :) But.. I think there are already a lot of post about that.
 
@CodyGray I see what you're saying, but like I said, I'm not being able to picture it. I'd have to see the question. BTW how would you post it? Under your account? That's going to be an issue for the experiment. I've actually tried to get Scratte to post my experiments. I might convince them yet :)
 
Why not post it under my account?
 
12:37 AM
@CodyGray That might raise the question: Do you have trouble with the mathematical formulation of the problem, or do you know the formula and are struggling with putting it into code?
 
It's the only one I've got!
@BaummitAugen Yeah, that is, I think, the real problem. I don't know the math behind it. But then, even if I did, I'm not sure I'd know how to represent it in code. So why break it up into two parts? Why not ask a single question, since what I ultimately want is to have the code?
 
lol!.. then you're not going to get the real experience of comments and closure.
 
Oh wouldn't a question posted by a mod be less likely to be voted down?
 
Would it? I doubt it.
 
@cigien Depends, they also pose a nice target for revenge downvoted because you don't have to pay for them. :)
 
12:39 AM
@CodyGray I have no idea. That was a sincere question. I would guess there'd be some bias.
 
That too.. In fact. You should go for the whole trip. Post it from a new account.. see how it gets comments, closed (probably by mod after the trip to triage) and then post on meta about why your post got closed :D
 
@BaummitAugen Oh, that's true I didn't think of that :)
@KenWhite Just needs more focus would suffice.
The remaining 2 points are not relevant to the close reason.
 
@CodyGray The code would be a C++ question. The maths would be a math question. Kind of different audiences, and particularly, different answers.
 
Yeah, I don't care about the math stuff. I just want the code stuff.
 
@cigien Yes, you offered your opinion earlier. Thanks.
 
12:41 AM
But to get to the code stuff, you do have to have the math stuff.
 
@KenWhite Indeed I did. I have new supporting evidence but I didn't make that clear. My apologies.
 
I tried a sock once to ask a jQuery question that reflected a genuine point of confusion that I had when writing userscripts. Went fine, got an OK answer (not great; definitely below what I'd expect from the JS/jQuery community on SO), got zero rude comments, but also didn't get hardly any upvotes (no downvotes though, I don't think, or maybe one).
 
@CodyGray Re your latest edit to the on-topic help-page. I realize that it happened without much fanfare. What's the protocol for something like that. A starred message in chat maybe?
 
@BaummitAugen Why can't that be in a single step? I ask the question, someone does the math stuff, writes the code, posts the answer?
@cigien Just blow a couple of toots on a kazoo. Should be enough fanfare. Do you have one handy?
If not, I can ring these sleigh bells I'm using as holiday decorations.
 
@CodyGray So.. you can use that account again, no?
 
12:44 AM
@Scratte That sock isn't a C++ programmer!
 
"@desertnaut: Your attitude is encouraging a ML community where engineers just push buttons and turn knobs instead of fully understanding ML problems. No wonder progress is slow.*" stackoverflow.com/questions/65149280/…
 
She answered a WinForms question, and then asked a jQuery question.
 
@CodyGray It's been a while. They've "evolved"?
 
@CodyGray I'm serious. I'm not saying that everyone will just change their minds because of a change to the help-pages, but take Ken's point a few messages above. As far as they're concerned, we had reached an impasse on this point earlier today, and the evidence they used was the very bullet in the help-page that no longer exists. It seems reasonable to announce the change in a way that I could say, link to. At least, I would like to be able to do that.
 
12:46 AM
@cigien Can't you just link to the current, publicly-visible Help Center?
 
^ that. Ask to kindly explain where in the help pages it says that.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, I'll do that then. I don't have a good reason for wanting it announced. I guess I was just surprised that it happened so smoothly. I was expecting considerably more contention than that. No worries, thanks.
 
It's still early times. No one is saying someone isn't going to make a big deal out of it and post on meta.
 
That's true :)
 
I have been thinking about featuring a public service announcement on Meta that "lack of effort" is not a close reason.
So, if you want drama and fanfare, that's probably the way to go.
 
12:50 AM
Ooh, yes :) I'll get the beer and snacks lined up for that.
 
Popcorn and my one vote :) I'll try not to make a mess in the comment section :P
 
Just had a comment flag declined on a "post code" comment on a question asking about a problem with a tool :-\ stackoverflow.com/questions/65137395/…
(It's a long, detailed comment, but the entire thing is wrong/inapplicable)
 
I did do a search on "What have you tried".. it seems that users are just adding "so far"
 
Meh. Mods don't like to make those decisions.
You'll have good luck with NLN flags on the obvious canned comments. Less so if it looks like someone took the time to write something sensible.
 
@RyanM Wait.. are you saying that is answerable?
 
12:57 AM
Not being familiar with the 4PL model to begin with, I'm not sure your question is a programming question to begin with. Is there even "the correct" 4PL fit for some set of data?
(I honestly don't know, but there might be some magic involved with picking correct weights and what not.)
 
@BaummitAugen I think it's pretty straightforward. See, e.g., this site, where you can select the 4PL model (top option under "Nonlinear"). I want a similar implementation in code. (I checked that site's JavaScript, but it appears to be just packaging up requests and submitting them to the server for processing, so I can't reverse-engineer it.)
I would be happy with an implementation of the Michaelis-Menten curve-fitting model, too. That's widely used in biochemistry. I remember it well from my own biochemical studies. But I can't find an implementation of that in a programming language I can read. There's one Java library that I found, but that had some issues (both technical and non-technical).
 
@tink That link is to the wrong SE site.
Oh, wait, did that just get migrated?
 
@desertnaut Where's the new answer on that? Last answer was posted 5 months ago.
@cigien Migrated.
 
K, thanks.
 
See blue banner
 
1:09 AM
@CodyGray Yeah, I didn't realize that.
@CodyGray Isn't NATO covered under the 6 month rule?
 
Is it? Seems very long.
 
@CodyGray so, within the 6 month range...? Answers (2) in July 2020 in an question posted in Feb 2017 are not considered as such?
i.e. NATO?
 
@CodyGray I don't recall any exception to NATO on that.
 
Yeah, I guess that's correct.
 
1:11 AM
6 months seems like quite a long time. If you didn't notice it causing a disruption any sooner than that, it probably didn't.
 
How short was that window before?
 
I'm not sure it's changed.
Although we used to be a lot slower about getting things closed...
 
Oh, I though I remembered someone saying that it used to be shorter than 6 months. I might be mistaken.
 
Lets say I have an Answer or a Question that's deleted and other users un-delete it. Can I re-delete it?
 
Why do we need to do hypotheticals?
Is there are a good reason why that post needs to be deleted? stackoverflow.com/help/what-to-do-instead-of-deleting-question
 
1:17 AM
@CodyGray At first glance, people are just throwing a non-linear least squares solver at the thing, but there appears to be considerable debate about whether that's the best error metric to begin with.
 
@cigien 14 days I think..
 
Regarding those solvers, there's plenty. Mostly based on Gauss-Newton, e.g. Levenberg-Marquardt.
 
@BaummitAugen Where are you seeing that? Looking at the behavior of the website? Or you found discussion elsewhere?
 
@CodyGray Yes. Parts of it is under copyright. Oh. Nice link. It even says "If nobody has answered yet, go ahead and delete it — nobody minds." :)
 
1:19 AM
@BaummitAugen Oh, cool. I don't think I found that when I tried to search.
 
There's also a lot of stuff on google scholar, but I can't view it from my private PC.
 
I could probably make that work for my application without issue. I'm not too concerned about errors, etc. This is just for a calibration curve, and the sigmoidal curve happens to fit my empirical data perfectly.
Yeah, I didn't even try to dig into the scholarly stuff, because I don't have access to that at all.
 
Anyway, if the nl least squares is the solution, don't get your hands dirty with the step size control and damping parameters and what not, that stuff is surprisingly sublte.
If in doubt, use minpack or sth...
 
@Scratte Copyright issues should be dealt with separately. Most of what is used here is covered by "fair use". Besides, users here (and moderators) aren't expected to deal with copyright concerns. Leave that to legal.
@BaummitAugen Only thing is, I'm going for maximum efficiency, not maximum accuracy. In other words, I need to fit the curve and get the equation as fast as possible, overriding almost all other (reasonable) concerns.
But I guess I can assume minpack is as optimized as is reasonable?
 
It's optimized for something. =D
 
1:24 AM
"sth" is an abbreviation for "something" or is that another library?
 
It's fast though, and we are talking only four parameters.
 
Eight, actually. But still small.
The data on the website was just sample data generated by the website, not representative data.
 
@CodyGray But that wasn't my original question. I just asked if a user can re-delete an un-deleted post.
 
@Scratte For "can" questions, you can just try it and see. For "should" questions, we need more information.
 
Non-linear optimization is a large area of research with a lot of tools optimized for different tasks.
Minpack is a reasonable first stop though.
For unconstrained problems at least.
 
1:26 AM
OK. Yeah, I was hoping to avoid some of the complexity since I'm just doing something pretty simple where accuracy doesn't matter much. But I think I underestimated how difficult this is.
 
@CodyGray That requires a post of mine being un-deleted.. or I ask someone else with an un-deleted post, that they didn't un-delete themselves to try to delete theirs.
I'm not happy with either. I'll try to see if this is covered somewhere in the abyss.
 
So this is a purely hypothetical. Why?
 
I like to be prepared.
 
I'll emphasize again that I am not familiar with the specifics of the 4PL model; but if there is a more simple solution, at least it's not trivial to find as you have noticed.
 
Yeah, apparently not. The online solvers I'd found (the linked one being only one example) made it appear simpler than it apparently is.
 
1:27 AM
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst
 
I'd seen discussion of non-linear least squares solvers, but was hoping to avoid that complexity in favor of something simpler, since I was constraining to a sigmoid shape in an apparently "well-known" model.
 
@Nkosi Yes.. that. Thank you :)
 
A former colleague took a stab at implementing a non-linear least squares solver. He was the kind of guy who could go read a dozen research articles, and then sit down and bang out the Python code to implement it. Pretty insane. I was very jealous of that skill. Anyway, he never completed it, and it was too complex for me to take over. I kinda didn't want anything that complex in the logic/codebase in the first place.
 
I have even another "hypothetical"..
 
@Scratte Let's assume I've already answered this one.
 
1:31 AM
I'm still not sure if my first one was answered :D
 
@CodyGray I really hope that that was planed to be implemented as a external library.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, non linear optimization is a whole... thing. First problem is that even for smooth problems you usually only converge to local minimums, so you need a good starting value.
 
@Braiam Nope... Implemented in-house, so by stupid policy, it would be fully proprietary code.
 
Then step size control and damping parameters, as mentioned, it's a whole zoo of practical issues.
 
I really feel like that should be able to be avoided by just fitting a sigmoid. I mean, it's just a giant "S". If Jeff Atwood isn't still using his, I might be able to borrow it...
That's what I thought about the previous colleague's foray into the non-linear optimization thing. He was making it too generic. We don't need that type of flexibility, or any of the problems that come with it.
He also looked into cubic spline interpolation. He got further along on that, but, again, seemed more complex than we needed.
 
1:37 AM
That's a lot easier, actually.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, projects should have limits.
 
He just did it because he enjoyed the challenge.
 
Which is why most of mine aren't finished.... too open ended :D
@CodyGray Oh yeah, that can be a problem.
 
@BaummitAugen It also doesn't fit the empirical data as well :-)
@BaummitAugen So I suppose MATLAB and MINPACK just figure those out "automatically"?
 
@CodyGray Yup.
 
1:40 AM
@BaummitAugen I would guess that the technical term is "automagically" no?
 
@CodyGray Depends on the step size and on the smoothness of the model you are interpolating. =D
 
That's pretty neat. Just a cursory look through the MINPACK source code doesn't even suggest all that much complexity.
 
@Braiam Mostly, yeah. =D
 
Although it's annoyingly written in a C89 style of C++...
With super cryptic function and variable names, which I loathe.
 
There is research on that, but mostly someone figured out what works and now everyone is using it.
 
1:41 AM
Heh
The end goal of all research.
 
@CodyGray The original is in Fortran
Hence the 6 character limit on all names.
 
That explains everything.
 
Uh-oh. Now I have a licensing question. :-) The page says there are requirements about copyright notices that must be reproduced, but the source code itself has function-header comments throughout that say, simply: "Licensing: This code may freely be copied, modified, and used for any purpose."
 
If there was a place to ask?
 
@Scratte By someone, perhaps; I don't know the answer. But the reason given makes zero sense. It's like someone saying their IDE crashes when they hit "create project" and someone saying "could you please give us if/then/else code for how you're doing that?" like...what, the source code of the IDE?
 
1:46 AM
@Braiam I'm wondering if I should ask, or just go with plausible deniability :-)
 
@CodyGray I'm struggling, then, to follow the advice to flag post-some-code comments as NLN if mods are going to decline flags on such comments for a question about launching a tool resulting in errors, which couldn't possibly involve code (...well, the tool is open-source, but that's not the point).
That's not to say that I don't appreciate your perspective, but also I'm probably not going to keep flagging these.
 
@RyanM I think I answered that in the next message. Even looking at that myself, it's not entirely obvious that code is inappropriate for that question. The comment makes a convincing point that it needs it.
Why should a mod perform an executive override of that commenter?
 
The commenter's argument is that non-code problems with programming tools aren't on-topic; this is explicitly contradicted by the help center.
Via the help center, "they directly involve tools used primarily for programming."
I do see your point, though, that this is a bit more involved than most such comments.
 
Yeah. Comment flags are handled with minimal thought.
Some mods (me) dismiss the flag if it looks like the comment might have value. Other mods (apparently) delete the comment unless there's something clearly compelling.
But still, the order of the day is minimal thought.
 
Do you have a standard, non-linear, thought-minimization algorithm you use?
... I think LM is good.
 
1:58 AM
@AdrianMole Whatever comes built in.
What is LM?
 
@RyanM I understand that they comment is less than useful in every way. I was just wondering if it should be re-opened.
 
Some might say Levenburg-Marquadt, but I was thinking more of Lazy Moderator. ;-)
 
@Scratte Oh, I see. I voted to reopen it, at least. I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
Levenberg-Marquardt ;P
 
Oops.
 
2:01 AM
Anyway, that's domain specific. The BFGS family of solvers can also do good work if the problem is smooth enough.
 
For 4PL, there's a specific equation: F(x) = D+(A-D)/(1+(x/C)^B)
 
Then the sparseness of the problem becomes interesting.
 
Why does that not make implementing it far easier than just a generic, non-linear least-squares curve fitting?
 
@CodyGray Start with LM. LM is good.
 
But, having just had a rapid scan through the recent transcript, I was already thinking about L-M minimization for Cody's sigmoid problem. I use it in my stuff, but even that has issues with sigmoids (Boltzmann variety) when there is only a smallish data sample.
 
2:02 AM
@RyanM But of course the un-helpful comment may impact the voters :(
 
The Numerical Recipes book has a good L-M code implementation.
 
@Scratte I've replied to it
 
@RyanM Nice :) Then maybe it has a chance :)
 
@CodyGray I mean, you can try to work out an analytical solution, but if that was easy, I would suspect it'd be easy to google.
For the linear case, there is an easy closed form solution, and it is easy to find.
But linear is always way easier.
 
It seems almost cheating how well that sigmoid fits.
I've been using a power curve, since that was easy for me to implement. But it's not that great of a fit.
 
2:06 AM
@CodyGray Hang on, lemme try something... (I should be in bed, meh, anyway...)
 
Do you just want a smooth curve to draw, or do you need to extract that actual 4 parameters of the sigmoid?
 
@AdrianMole I want an equation. This is a calibration curve, so I need to use it to interpolate the value of "x" from empirically-measured "y".
 
OK. So you know the underlying function is a sigmoid but don't care if your interpolation isn't. Or am I in need of strong drink?
 
Yeah, that’s right.
 
Do you know the underlying function is a sigmoid?
 
2:08 AM
I don’t even understand exactly why the underlying function is a sigmoid. But it seems to be.
 
What, the drink thing or the interpolation? ;)
 
Because the data doesn't show the left tail.
Might just be logarithmic, no?
 
I'd give my right arm to be able to solve Boltzmann Sigmoids rapidly.
... I don't have a right tail!
 
Then you lose, I'm afraid.
 
OK - I'm off for some strong drink!
 
2:10 AM
Logarithmic is more what I’d expect theoretically. But a log fit doesn’t produce a good fit
@AdrianMole You have to leave for that?
 
The thing about polynomials, though, is they can fit virtually anything (given enough terms) ... and they're quick.
... I have to leave to get the darn hooch!
 
Yes, except for the parts of the polynomial curve that don’t fit
Then you end up with weird stuff.
There’s always weird anomalies in the behavior of the curve at some point whenever you start doing polynomial fitting, increasing the order. I’ve played with this in Excel.
 
2:44 AM
Someone left a comment on that cat aggression question asking for an MCVE. Facepalm.
 
Would that be a Male Cat Veterinary Example?
 
They spelled it “minimal, reproducible example”, linked to the Help Center article...
 
Ah, that makes sense...two male cats aren't going to be able to reproduce.
 
Yeah.
 
Welp, also can't get the log fit to fit anywhere close as well as the sigmoid fit. @CodyGray
At least minpack seams to find a good fit quicly on your toy data.
 
2:57 AM
@BaummitAugen Yeah, that matches with my experimentation, too. I’m not quite sure why, but it’s good to get confirmation. Thanks for checking into it.
You tried with minpack? Care to share your test code?
 
Only via Python.
But sure.
 
How about splines?
 
It's 24 lines, can I post that here?
 
Ah, Python. That’s less helpful. :-)
 
heh
 
3:00 AM
The fit on your data takes 1.2ms even with finite difference Jacobian through Python function calls.
 
@AdrianMole Had a colleague begin implementing cubic splines interpolation in C++, but wasn’t finished and I felt it seemed unnecessarily complex.
 
With the analytical Jacobian and without the ridiculous Python overhead, might be fast enough for most usecases.
 
You can post a pastebin or something. But I was hoping it was C++
Yeah, hopefully. How is analytical different from finite difference Jacobin?
 
3:02 AM
You can ask on Stack Overflow; Can you plz make viss pyhton code in c? (cigien will be happy to translate, I'm sure)
 
@CodyGray FD takes 2 evaluations of the function per variable.
 
@AdrianMole Always a pleasure :)
 
The analytical Jacobian can easily be computed in one go in this case. Wolfram Alpha to the rescue if in doubt.
 
Oh, that’s cool. You pass in a functor, and it uses that do the curve fitting with LM
 
And sorry for the hacky Python code, just wanted some quick results. =D
 
3:04 AM
@cigien Do you speak parseltongue?
 
LM needs a derivate, too.
 
@BaummitAugen I wouldn’t know the difference
 
@cigien why do you think it's not a typo? OP just used the wrong - character
 
@CodyGray That's an HP reference, but I don't get it.
 
@AdrianMole In this case, no reason not to compute it. There is Nelder-Mead and stuff, but it's slow...
 
3:05 AM
@BaummitAugen How does one compute that? This is all new to me.
@cigien Speaking snake == able to read Python
 
@Nick Yes, but isn't that a useful question? Maybe the title could be edited a bit.
 
For every variable
 
@BaummitAugen True - just not sure how good at math(s) Cody is. Allegedly, he was a reasonable biologist.
 
The variables go into the columns, the data points into the rows.
 
3:07 AM
@BaummitAugen I’m wondering if some of this could be precomputed and fixed, since, although the exact values will change, the curve shape is the same every time.
 
@CodyGray Ah. Yeah, I can read python, but debugging or writing it is painful. The lack of static analysis is the problem for me.
 
@AdrianMole Absolutely horrid at math. It’s a known thing.
 
@CodyGray At the very least, you can re-use the starting values.
Also tweak the tolerances to significantly lower the number of iterations and function evaluations if you don't need the precision.
 
Good point
 
@cigien Personally, I don't think so. YMMV
 
3:10 AM
The Python syntax looks a lot simpler than using MINPACK
 
@Nick My rationale is that it's a reasonable mistake for someone to make, the title has the keywords that one would use in that situation, and I couldn't find a dupe for it.
 
@CodyGray Python always starts out really easy, then you run into cornercases and things get hard. =D
 
@cigien I guess I disagree with it being a reasonable mistake, you can't easily type that character into code (at least, not in my part of the world) so if you're cutting and pasting it from somewhere you should be careful about the source character set.
 
@CodyGray Sure, but there are decent libraries to use as replacements for scipy and numpy, with close-ish syntac. Are you constrained to MINPACK for some reason?
 
It is also using Minpack though, scipy wraps it.
(Stupid keyboard)
 
3:15 AM
Oh, I didn't know that. But the issue is the API being convenient right?
 
@cigien Not at all. Just unfamiliar with the domain, and don’t know a good place to go ask for resource recommendations. :-) In all seriousness, though, this is not a core feature of the app, I don’t need it for anything else, so I need this to be very light and efficient. I also need to pay attention to licenses: this must be integrated into a closed-source commercial app.
Other than my laziness (and instinctive appreciation for elegance), I don’t need a convenient API.
 
@cigien Yeah, Python with its "battery included"-philosophy is great for fast prototyping and trying out things.
 
Ah, probably not worth the external libraries then. And I have no clue about the licenses involved.
 
I've had trouble scaling it, but then again, I work in a fairly specific domain.
 
I use MATLAB for that, since it’s what the mechanical engineers on my team use, making it easier for me to communicate with them. I didn’t know MATLAB before, but learned it for this job. It’s a truly terrible language.
 
3:19 AM
So I've been told.
 
Python might be objectively better, but I dislike it for various reasons, too. Almost nothing I hear about it makes me optimistic.
 
Speaking of where to ask for resource recommendations ;)
 
@CodyGray I liked it a lot in the beginning; by now I think it's fine, but I prefer C++ more and more.
 
@CodyGray My personal metric is it needs to be less than a couple of dozen lines. So strictly for quickly scripting something as proof of concept.
And plotting sometimes.
 
Yeah, modern C++ has a lot of the advantages of Python’s syntax, with none of the disadvantages.
 
3:22 AM
Yup, which ties in to the std::views discussion we were having.
 
Okay, modern C++ is out unfortunately due to toolchain restrictions...
Still.
 
Plotting is where I use MATLAB.
Otherwise, if I have to write much code, I might as well write it in C++, because that’s easier for me and what I’m ultimately going to need to implement it in, so why not save some work?
 
@Nick Ok, I see your point. I still think it could be useful, which I think trumps the fact that it's a typo.
 
@cigien It can be useful without being open. It won't get roomba'd since it has an upvoted answer.
 
@Nick How will I post “me too” answers?
 
3:29 AM
@Nick That's true. But I'm also not sure if other answers need to be prevented, if the question is on-topic.
BTW is the last SD report a programming question? Is it a tool question, perhaps?
 
Android emulators seem like tools used by software developers
 
@cigien what @CodyGray said...
@cigien what could any other answer add to what has already been said?
 
Ok, sounds good. I'm still a little fuzzy on what counts as programming tools. Thanks.
 
@cigien Tools used primarily by programmers
 
@Nick Hmm, I don't make that judgement when deciding to close/reopen. The fact that I can't imagine a different/better answer is not saying much.
@CodyGray Yes, I know the definition :p I have difficulty in some cases with telling whether they would be GC. This one looks like GC to me, for example.
 
3:34 AM
Yeah, gotta disagree with Nick here. That’s not how we decide when to close.
 
@cigien @CodyGray that was a rhetorical question. We would close that question because it's a typo, which is what happened.
 
@cigien Evaluation order matters. Check whether it’s a tool primarily used by programmers first. It might also be on-topic for SU, but that doesn’t matter.
 
@CodyGray Hmm, you're right. And I know that's the right evaluation order. Darn feelings getting in the way again :(
 
You have strong feelings about Android emulators?
 
No, I have feelings about tool questions being on-topic in general. I don't really know where that comes from.
I have used SO for looking up vim commands for ages.
Hmm, I really don't know why I'm always conservative with tool questions. I'll have to think about that.
@Nick I'm not really sure about how the typo thing works. Is it the number of different characters?
Take the last request. Also a typo, and completely useless to future readers. That's not the case with the reopen-pls request I made.
 
3:51 AM
@cigien You could equally argue that getting told that arrow functions that use code blocks have to be enclosed in {} was useful to future readers.
 
@Nick If the answer to the question could only be "fix typo like this", then the analogy would work. But in this case, an answer could explain something more, e.g. how encodings work. That makes it slightly different from a typo question.
 
@cigien You should be skeptical, plenty of them are not on-topic. But no need to necessarily be conservative.
@cigien It’s about usefulness to future viewers. Nothing else. Ignore the “typo” word in the close reason. It’s just an example of a question that might qualify. But it probably shouldn’t be there at all. It ends up being all people see.
 
@cigien the question wasn't about encodings. If the question was about encodings, then sure, an answer can explain that. The question was about someone accidentally cutting and pasting a non-ascii character into their code. The answer is "fix typo like change unicode hyphen to ascii hyphen"
 
@CodyGray Ok, I'll keep that in mind. Now that I've started using review queues, I should see more of them, and that'll help. In the C++ tag, I don't get to see many tool questions.
 
It's typo day in SOCVR! :)
 
3:58 AM
@cigien Valgrind? GCC? GDB? Visual Studio?
 

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